Character growth rates! (Spoilers)

[Nyanko]

Poor Gunter. I actually want to use him, but...

[LiquidDefiance]

It's pitiful to see Lilith having higher stats than half of your army...

Well, you can only use her is Streetpass battles, right?

[BaKaDaNaa]

Wait, Dread Fighters are in this game? Who promotes into them?

[SonicSpinner]

High growths, low growths. Doesn't matter much out of context. In context though, it's actually easier to get RNG screwed and/or have a poorly balanced game when the growths are higher since in order to make the enemy stats actually match the high expected stats of the player, they'd be inflated along with the growths. Or else the game would be too easy. So, lunatic+ FE:A is actually kind of a pain in terms of RNG screwage to me, since you really do want the high growths to trigger and can feel it when they fail to. On the other hand, getting good stat-ups in a game with low growths means you were actually blessed rather than just meeting the expected curve and most characters are salvageable/usable even with poor stat-ups, since enemies will be generated based on lower growths too.

The GBA games are generally a good example of this, aside from FE6's wonky decision to give you level 1 pre-promos with lower bases and around the same growths as enemy promoted units, late in the game when enemies are actually promoted.

I get with what you're saying with getting RNG screwed in higher levels of difficulty, but I feel like since since that is the highest difficulty level, of course it is a lot easier to get RNG screwed if you don't get fairly decent level ups. I mean, that's one the main things that makes higher difficulty levels that much more challenging. I think that can be said for the majority of FE games on the hardest setting.

Perhaps what I meant to refer to previously in particular are the pre-premoted characters' growth rates. Unpromoted units turn out fine the majority of the time, and even if they don't, usually a stat booster or two will fix that. Most of the time, anyone who takes the time to look up growth rates for pre-premotes will bench such characters immediately if their base stats don't turn them off already. Yeah, these characters are really meant for those scenarios when your units ended up crappy, but for someone who loved the change in Awakening ( since it wasn't a lost cause leveling those units up) it is a bit saddening. Of course, I sure I'm the minority when it comes to using units like this in FE games.

Edited June 24, 2015 by SonicSpinner

[lysander]

More I look at it, the more these growths compare to the GBA growths with one major change: everybody has more defense but less HP. For a melee characters, def seems to range from 45 to 60 or so with the odd outlier (Hana, probably due to her personal skills more than anything). On the other hand, 65 HP growth is now high for even melee. For Rekka, HP for melee was around 80 or so on average I'd say whereas def was more commonly 20ish, with 30 as the average probably.

I think this is a good trend. It slightly de-values weak, but many attacks and staff healing (by making items better/more viable), which to me are two things IS has struggled to figure out with their last few entries. It also adds more value to the weapons/skills that debuff defenses, still allowing the "weak, but many" sorts of attacks a place.

I get with what you're saying with getting RNG screwed in higher levels of difficulty, but I feel like since since that is the highest difficulty level, of course it is a lot easier to get RNG screwed if you don't get fairly decent level ups. I mean, that's one the main things that makes higher difficulty levels that much more challenging. I think that can be said for the majority of FE games on the hardest setting.

Perhaps what I meant to refer to previously in particular are the pre-premoted characters' growth rates. Unpromoted units turn out fine the majority of the time, and even if they don't, usually a stat booster or two will fix that. Most of the time, anyone who takes the time to look up growth rates for pre-premotes will bench such characters immediately if their base stats don't turn them off already. Yeah, these characters are really meant for those scenarios when your units ended up crappy, but for someone who loved the change in Awakening ( since it wasn't a lost cause leveling those units up) it is a bit saddening. Of course, I sure I'm the minority when it comes to using units in FE games.

Their base stats are probably fine though. FE7 pre-promos were great, to say nothing of FE8, and even Marcus had his place as I'm sure Gunter will.

As for the difficulty comment, I think you slightly missed the point. I'm saying it's easier, on the designer's end, to find that correct balance with lower growths. You can actually enter unwinnable states with FE:A if the high growths fail. That is not the case with, say, FE7 but that is still a fun/challenging game.

edit: Not to even mention quite a number of characters are literally unusable in FE:A lunatic/lunatic+ due to the stat expectations taken from the average high growths.

Edited June 24, 2015 by lysander

[LiquidDefiance]

Also, there's DLC classes already? Datamined info?

[Sias]

I like that there's a lot of variety between the different growths of characters in the same class/everyone in general now.

... But admittedly, some of those don't seem to fit at all. And especially the super low speed growths on some people are kind of icky.

Oh well, I think we'll just have to see how things work out.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Sias

[VincentASM]

Wait, Dread Fighters are in this game? Who promotes into them?

Yes.

Any male/female who uses a Dread Scroll. You get 2 by buying two campaigns.

Also, there's DLC classes already? Datamined info?

Seems like it.

Ballisticians are male only and use Bows and Catapults. Witches are female only and locked to Tomes, but can teleport.

[BaKaDaNaa]

Thank you! What happens if you use the scrolls on your first game and then start a new game, though?

[goodperson707]

Sigh... More gender locked classes... The priest/priestess promotions were manageable partly cause the Priest/mountaineer class seems to have a different class origin than regular priests, but still i kinda hoped we kicked the habit of full gender-locks, eh, it is not as bad as bride though.

[capmalachi]

Seems like it.

Ballisticians are male only and use Bows and Catapults. Witches are female only and locked to Tomes, but can teleport.

Goes out of their way to remove gender locked classes -> adds them back in via DLC.

What. Well whatever I guess.

[Sylphid]

Wow, first Pegasi and Fighters are released from gender lock, but now we've got new gender-locked classes... That's pretty illogical.

Funny thing is I wouldn't have been bothered by this if classes hadn't lost their gender lock at first

[goodperson707]

^ well the priests classes, are pseudo split with different promotions for genders but yeah the dlc classes are a bummer, but still it could be worse it could be gender locked bride, (i am sure lots of people would have fun with it non gender locked though) But still they couldn't find a gender neutral term for witch.. Really i mean i know i know Gaiden but still... I was so hopeful,

Edited June 24, 2015 by goodperson707

[CocoaGalaxy]

Hai Folks er...just dropping by

So I was crunching some numbers, very basic stuff, and just wanted to see if anybody was interested in what I had er..crunched out.

Nothing too spectacular

Due to the fact that Gen 2 characters are Gen 2, I didn't actually use their calculations. They probably have..an interesting set of numbers.

Looking at Character Growths only, Saizou actually comes in at the highest, with total growths of 335%. Right behind him is Odin at 330%

Of course, with Aptitude (Assuming that yes, Mozume has Aptitude, and that it still gives 10% to each stat), Mozume has a total of 370%

Preliminary adding of class and character growths gives about 330-390 for most of the characters. Mozume with Aptitude has 440% as a Villager

Again, back at looking at Character Growths only, Lowest growths (not counting Gunther for "obvious reasons") is Setsuna, with 225%

Average total growths is about 280%, which is kind of in the center I guess.

Okay, again using only Character Growths (because I don't have any advanced capabilities to check all the possible combinations for the classes)
Average Growths in general don't actually differ that much, a few points at most, though it is to be expected

HP, Skill, Speed, Luck are 40% on average, Defense and Resistance are 30%. Strength and Magic is a bit more complicated, considering that you have units with 0 % Growths in them, which kind of skew the values. The fact that characters can "choose" to use Magic also makes it a bit more complicated. In any regard, Strength is about 40% as well. Magic's average is 20%, but I'm sure the actual casters have more than that. Sum of these are 280, as you would expect.

From what I can tell

Mozume > Kamui and Leo > Camilla, Hinoka, Takumi, Azura > Xander, Ryouma, Elise > Everyone else (unfortunately Sakura is kinda low compared to the others)

Next up is a own personal thing of mine, finding characters that don't have lopsided growths.

Kamui is probably (well, default Kamui anyway) the best example of a nonlopsided growth character. Xander and Ryouma, along with the other siblings (the two healers aside) also have pretty balanced growths.

The main thing I noticed in the stream of Hoshido was that almost everyone had bad HP and DEF as well. Those who didn't usually didn't have as good STR/SPD, so it was a tradeoff being either a stone wall and/or mighty glacier vs a glass cannon.

Unfortunately even with growths, without base stats, you can't calculate their final stats, so we'll just have to base the stats on growths alone

Again, character growths only

Notable mentions, including the above (Format: HP/STR or Magic/SPD/DEF)

Kamui: 45/45/45/35

Ryouma: 50/45/45/35

Xander: 45/50/35/40

Camilla: 40/50/55/35

Hinoka: 45/45/45/35

Leo: 45/55/45/30

Takumi: 50/35/40/35

Other characters include (All four stats above 35 by my standards, I guess standards can differ though)

Shared:

Silas: 40/45/40/40

Mozume (Assuming 10% Aptitude): 40/50/65/45

Hoshido:
Asama: 55/50/45/40

Tsukuyomi: 50/40/45/40

Nishiki: 45/40/45/35

Nohr:

Arthur: 50/45/35/45

Effie: 35/60/50/35

Flannel: 60/60/35/50

In general, the Hoshido characters are less balanced than the Nohr ones from what I can tell, though the stats actually still average out.

Well thats all I have for now folks. I hope it has been somewhat helpful

Edited June 24, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Awakener_]

Witches are females only, witches, no shit guys...

[Sylphid]

^ well the priests classes, are pseudo split with different promotions for genders but yeah the dlc classes are a bummer, but still it could be worse it could be gender locked bride, (i am sure lots of people would have fun with that.). But still they couldn't find a gender neutral term for witch.

For the record, if the classes worked similarly (like War Cleric/Monk in Awakening), I wouldn't really mind. War Miko and Mountain Priest have different weapon and (pretty small I admit) differences in growth rates though, so they are as good as two separate classes.

But true, it could be much worse.

On witches being female-exclusive: yeah, with name like that, obviously. Nothing would have stopped the class being named something gender-neutral though (kinda sorta the same with Bride in Awakening)

It's more about the concept of juggling gender-lock than any specific class being gender-locked that irks me though.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Sylphid

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Witches are female only and locked to Tomes, but can teleport.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

AAAAAAAAAAAA

I am confusingly very excited

[goodperson707]

Hai Folks er...just dropping by

So I was crunching some numbers, very basic stuff, and just wanted to see if anybody was interested in what I had er..crunched out.

Nothing too spectacular

Due to the fact that Gen 2 characters are Gen 2, I didn't actually use their calculations. They probably have..an interesting set of numbers.

Looking at Character Growths only, Saizou actually comes in at the highest, with total growths of 335%. Right behind him is Odin at 330%

Of course, with Aptitude (Assuming that yes, Mozume has Aptitude, and that it still gives 20% to each stat), Mozume has a total of 450%

Preliminary adding of class and character growths gives about 330-390 for most of the characters. Mozume with Aptitude has 520% as a Villager

Again, back at looking at Character Growths only, Lowest growths (not counting Gunther for "obvious reasons") is Setsuna, with 225%

Average total growths is about 280%, which is kind of in the center I guess.

Okay, again using only Character Growths (because I don't have any advanced capabilities to check all the possible combinations for the classes)

Average Growths in general don't actually differ that much, a few points at most, though it is to be expected

HP, Skill, Speed, Luck are 40% on average, Defense and Resistance are 30%. Strength and Magic is a bit more complicated, considering that you have units with 0 % Growths in them, which kind of skew the values. The fact that characters can "choose" to use Magic also makes it a bit more complicated. In any regard, Strength is about 40% as well. Magic's average is 20%, but I'm sure the actual casters have more than that. Sum of these are 280, as you would expect.

From what I can tell

Mozume > Kamui and Leo > Camilla, Hinoka, Takumi, Azura > Xander, Ryouma, Elise > Everyone else (unfortunately Sakura is kinda low compared to the others)

Next up is a own personal thing of mine, finding characters that don't have lopsided growths.

Kamui is probably (well, default Kamui anyway) the best example of a nonlopsided growth character. Xander and Ryouma, along with the other siblings (the two healers aside) also have pretty balanced growths.

The main thing I noticed in the stream of Hoshido was that almost everyone had bad HP and DEF as well. Those who didn't usually didn't have as good STR/SPD, so it was a tradeoff being either a stone wall and/or mighty glacier vs a glass cannon.

Unfortunately even with growths, without base stats, you can't calculate their final stats, so we'll just have to base the stats on growths alone

Again, character growths only

Notable mentions, including the above (Format: HP/STR or Magic/SPD/DEF)

Kamui: 45/45/45/35

Ryouma: 50/45/45/35

Xander: 45/50/35/40

Camilla: 40/50/55/35

Hinoka: 45/45/45/35

Leo: 45/55/45/30

Takumi: 50/35/40/35

Other characters include (All four stats above 35 by my standards, I guess standards can differ though)

Shared:

Silas: 40/45/40/40

Mozume (Assuming 20% Aptitude): 50/60/75/55

Hoshido:

Asama: 55/50/45/40

Tsukuyomi: 50/40/45/40

Nishiki: 45/40/45/35

Nohr:

Arthur: 50/45/35/45

Effie: 35/60/50/35

Flannel: 60/60/35/50

In general, the Hoshido characters are less balanced than the Nohr ones from what I can tell, though the stats actually still average out.

Well thats all I have for now folks. I hope it has been somewhat helpful

thank you for that, i like me my numbers, but i believe Vincent is data mining/looking at skills at the moment and he mentioned that aptitude only raises growths by 10% not 20% also that gale-force got nerfed so it doesn't work with stances now Edited June 24, 2015 by goodperson707

[CocoaGalaxy]

I see then. The stream never went through, so I'll adjust the numbers accordingly. I think Mozume is still clearly in the lead though. I think

[ReedTien]

Tsubaki's low speed growth rate is making me sad... He hasn't gained any in 6 levels.

[Mysterique Sign]

Azura's strength, speed, skill and luck are crazy high, too bad about the shit defense and HP, though

[Carter]

These growth rates are like devastatingly low... I can't recall another Fire Emblem game (and I did check a couple of the other games on the main site) with that many zeros. In general, these growth rates seem very, very low. i hope Nintendo is pranking us

[Chastlily]

These growth rates are like devastatingly low... I can't recall another Fire Emblem game (and I did check a couple of the other games on the main site) with that many zeros. In general, these growth rates seem very, very low. i hope Nintendo is pranking us

On the other hand, Elise looks quite strong in my humble opinion.

[Tryhard]

back in my day gunther's growths were literally everyone in fe2's

[Featherwick]

I like it. They honestly could have been even lower. I honestly felt like they were, after watching the stream it seemed like levels gave a lot less total stats than average, but who knows.