Player worshipping

[Dark Holy Elf]

Entertainment has all of the reason to give the entertainee what they want; after all, they want the entertainee to enjoy it enough to pay for it. It's just that some of us don't want shoddy writing as the cost for wish fulfillment. I don't like it either, but I understand why they do it, at least.

Some of us don't like this type of writing, but I've met a ton of people who just eat it right up. Unfortunately, this is just what we're stuck with until they add some sort of compromise(like dialogue trees, as Loki mentioned on the page before).

I don't want shoddy writing as a cost for wish fulfillment, but I also don't want wish fulfillment, period, or at least not so much that it is distracting or limits the types of protagnoists you can write. And I don't think I'm that alone; I think people want wish-fulfillment less than they think they do, and the history of popular fiction backs me up. How many great works of fiction strongly feature wish fulfillment? Not very many, or at the very least it is balanced out by other things (e.g. Frodo's journey to save the world may at first be seen as wish-fulfilling, but the experience is generally awful, he is constantly made to feel weak, learns to distrust most of his friends, and ends up a broken shell of the person he was at the start of the story). Even within a more wish-fulfilly genre like fantasy, the works generally held up as greats involve flawed or weak protagonists, and are better for it. Video games are generally worse about pandering, being a bit more juvenile for whatever reason (they're still often seen as "for kids" even as increasingly the majority of players are adults), but the same principle about more-respected stories featuring less wish fulfillment generally holds true. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most popular non-pokemon JRPG of all time (Final Fantasy VII) features an extremely flawed and messed up protagonist.

I agree with this. Lets face it, all of the Fire Emblem protagonists have been some degree of stu/sue. If anything Robin/Reflet was a partial exception due to being in a weird shared main protagonist spot with Chrom, allowing him/her to be less perfect special snowflake. If you really dig into his/her supports, Robin has some serious security issues, as seen from M!Robins tendency to be very passive and often get shut down in disputes by people talking over him and F!Robin's tendency to overreact and act overly agressive when faced with criticsm. Still has the whole "mostly everyone loves me for no reason" and "automatically tactics jesus", though

I agree, but (a) I think that's certainly a part of why FE isn't among the greats of the genre for writing and (b) it seems like it is getting worse.

[Iron Griffin]

I agree with this. Lets face it, all of the Fire Emblem protagonists have been some degree of stu/sue. If anything Robin/Reflet was a partial exception due to being in a weird shared main protagonist spot with Chrom, allowing him/her to be less perfect special snowflake. If you really dig into his/her supports, Robin has some serious security issues, as seen from M!Robins tendency to be very passive and often get shut down in disputes by people talking over him and F!Robin's tendency to overreact and act overly agressive when faced with criticsm. Still has the whole "mostly everyone loves me for no reason" and "automatically tactics jesus", though

The newest protagonists of these games have really taken new levels in the special snowflake department and Kamui in my opinion is a far bigger one than Robin especially with the release of the third route. Robin was up there but my biggest issues with him/her have to do more with the character being a spotlight stealer considering Chrom was suppose to be the main character but the guy himself was basically your typical blue haired hero with not much to him.

The writing for some of the other characters and the narratives in general are not that good either. I feel like we are about to descend on a steep slope into a river of molten mediocrity if this persists.

[SkyknightXi]

True, but I was referring to the general attitude displayed by the japanese fandom. Of course there are always people on both sides of the world who prefer things that most others around them don't. There are also japanese games that allow for more choice and customization, but I was talking about the general attitude.

When you look at the style of most japanese rpgs versus western rpgs you can see a certain tendency for both. Fates takes it to the extreme as it does for most of its features, but it still comes from the basic cultural roots.

I am curious as to what those cultural roots ARE. i.e. what it is that makes a flawed hero less popular among Japanese audiences than non-Japanese, why they prefer an obvious basal couple (e.g. Chrom*Sumia), why they don't look strongly for agency, etc. I mean, really delve into what's at root (e.g. the reason cuteness/childlike innocence is given such a premium in Japanese society is apparently that it suggests an existence free from the swarm of obligations that defines adult life there).

I will admit that I never see myself as the lead actor, but rather the director (the programmers would be the producer); it's probably telling that even though I'm male, I like to make custom lead characters female when possible--extra remove between myself and them. Hence why Silent Protagonists irritate me; what kind of actor is THIS supposed to be?! Wish fulfillment isn't any better; the character shouldn't be so malleable, they certainly wouldn't be such in a play or novel. This is not to say I dislike customization, but it's usually in the matter of gameplay (i.e. choice of promotion classes). Never mind that the scenario isn't going to work so well if the player CAN'T see theirself as a typical goody-two-shoes, whatever the milieu. Then again, I wonder how much social pressure there is in Japan that everyone be a goody-two-shoes (remember the obligation swarm I referenced before?). This may explain why Chaotic Good doesn't seem to show up much, as opposed to Lawful Good and Neutral Good.

That said, we really should have expected this sort of idolization from the default name being "Kamui"--the Japanese version of "Kamuy", the Ainu word for "deity".

ADDENDUM: Now that I think of it...Just how low does quality have to get before the player/reader/viewer-adulation stops being able to hide it? I speak generally here, NOT of the FE series in particular. I figure that no matter how much ego-stroking someone wants, they're not going to abide it if bad quality is unavoidable. At least, I trust people prefer high-quality art to low-quality art, given the choice. (On a side note, was there a noticeable change in IS's staff just before they began including MyUnits? That might give us a sense of whether or not there's someone in particular we can blame.)

Edited July 10, 2015 by SkyknightXi

[Skywolfe]

-snip-

Honestly, this. I've gotten a little tired of seeing all the hate Yu gets as an MC, and I'd add something to this, but everything I wanted to say was already said in this post.

Getting back on topic, however... Kamui, I agree, is a player avatar, but along with Robin, it seems like no one's doing any digging and taking this solely at face value and labelling the "unanimous love" for him as player worship. It was mentioned earlier (I'd go back and quote it but I'm a little restricted at the moment), but Robin was in many ways rather damaged. It required digging, and it required looking between the lines, but the evidence was most definitely there that for all their tacticial genius and likability that they suffered from both massive self-esteem problems and a scoop or two of an identity crisis. This is best evident in Virion's, Tiki's, and Aversa's support chain for the male Robin, and it is touched upon in the Wellspring of Truth chapter, as was previously stated. I'll grant that this could have been thrown farther into the player's face in terms of the main plot, and it could have been explored much more deeply to create a far more nuanced character, but player avatars are, by design, meant to be blank-ish slates for the player to assign themselves their role, and going too deep can ruin that design and shatter the image.

Now whether or not this always works is a matter for debate. I certainly never assign myself the role as the MC no matter how blank the slate is, but that's my prerogative as an author. I want to create a character, add to what little there is already established to their personality, not become one myself, and that's how I handle player avatars. This of course is not going to work for everyone, but that's where wish fulfillment takes a front seat, and I've got little to say on that front. Having a blank slate to work off of and to experiment with is the form of wish fulfillment I want, and I'm relatively content with what I have from both Robin and Kamui at this given point.

I'm likely going out on a limb, as I honestly haven't played the game myself and am only working on the supports that have been translated as well as other snippets of dialogue and chapter summaries that have been floating around here, but I am heavily doubting that Kamui is any less messed up than Robin is, despite all appearances to the contrary on surface-level. It's buried, I'll grant that, but it's not buried deep enough to dismiss it entirely. Kamui's Nohr support chain with Aqua proves enough, at least to me, that they've been damaged by what's happened concerning their choices, and they aren't perfect. Taking it further isn't much of a big step for anyone with an imagination, but I will also grant that it's an author's job during character creation and script to ensure this is front and centre in the player's psyche rather than having to be analyzed so intensely. There was a ball or two dropped, that's true enough and I won't argue that.

TL;DR: Interpretation seems to be the problem here rather than shoddy writing, but that's just my opinion.

[Jedi]

The writing for some of the other characters and the narratives in general are not that good either. I feel like we are about to descend on a steep slope into a river of molten mediocrity if this persists.

But the thing is, Jugdral, Elibe, Magvel, Tellius (Minus Part 3 and beyond in RD) and the retelling of Marth's stories all had solid writing (minus Kris in FE12).

Edited July 10, 2015 by Jedi

[Iron Griffin]

But the thing is, Jugdral, Elibe, Magvel, Tellius and the retelling of Marth's stories all had solid writing (minus Kris in FE12).

I wasn't saying everything was bad but really looking at some of the characters and stories especially now leave a lot to be desired.

[Jedi]

I wasn't saying everything was bad but really looking at some of the characters and stories especially now leave a lot to be desired.

When you have 40+ characters a game, you are really going to struggle to give them all equal value and prominence.

And are you expecting Shakespeare from a video game? I mean, some of the plots can be a little too Black and White, but for the most part they all work from more simple narratives, some are more complex.

And imo the only FE game with a bad plot overall I'd say is Awakening. Past the Gangrel arc (there was alot of promise)

[Iron Griffin]

When you have 40+ characters a game, you are really going to struggle to give them all equal value and prominence.

And are you expecting Shakespeare from a video game? I mean, some of the plots can be a little too Black and White, but for the most part they all work from more simple narratives, some are more complex.

And imo the only FE game with a bad plot overall I'd say is Awakening. Past the Gangrel arc (there was alot of promise)

I expect more from a story and its characters instead of the creators playing it safe and recycling archetypes and plot points. The past games may have had quality in the past but that does not excuse this currently growing trend of laziness that is appearing in these newest games with their storytelling. I want the franchise to improve not just in gameplay but in terms of narrative as well and these feelings extend to other things in today's media.

Like seriously we are doing the whole evil dragon daddy issues again?

[Gomez_Addams]

I expect more from a story and its characters instead of the creators playing it safe and recycling archetypes and plot points. The past games may have had quality in the past but that does not excuse this currently growing trend of laziness that is appearing in these newest games with their storytelling. I want the franchise to improve not just in gameplay but in terms of narrative as well and these feelings extend to other things in today's media.

Like seriously we are doing the whole evil dragon daddy issues again?

What do you mean "again?" Evil dragon daddy issues aren't exactly common in this series. The only one I can think of that kind of fits is Kurthnaga, and his dad isn't really evil, just stubborn and misguided,

[Iron Griffin]

What do you mean "again?" Evil dragon daddy issues aren't exactly common in this series. The only one I can think of that kind of fits is Kurthnaga, and his dad isn't really evil, just stubborn and misguided,

It was figure of speech not literal. Last game we had an antagonistic father and a giant psycho dragon who wanted to wreck everyone's shit. Now in this game we once again have it but this time its the daddy issues and dragon rolled into one and this bastard too wants to wreck everyone's shit.

[Zerosabers]

They really just need to take a lesson for dark souls on how to do self inserts. The game makes sure that you understand the world doesn't revolve around you.

Literally the second npc you're most likely going to meet (Male undead burg merchant) talks about how he is going to loot your corpse when you finally die for good.

Laurentius is probably the friendliest npc, and that's because you literally just saved him from being eaten alive. He trusts you, but he also has his own agenda. Trying to learn more exotic forms of pyromancy. So if you tell him about your higher level pyromancys he'll leave and go hollow down in blighttown. But if you refuse he says he trusts you and asks that you forget he ever asked. He's a lonely man and you're probably one of his first friends so it makes sense that he holds you in such high regard.

Compare that to Lautrec, who you let out of his cell, one that he can get out of himself. If you save him he repays the favor by helping you with some bosses and giving you a sunlight medal. After helping you a little, he will kill the firekeeper for firelink and make it so you can't rest there anymore. You have to find him again in Anor Londo and fight him so you can get the firekeeper's souls back.

Make other characters have their own goals and desires besides whatever the player wants.

[Dandy Druid]

They really just need to take a lesson for dark souls on how to do self inserts. The game makes sure that you understand the world doesn't revolve around you.

Literally the second npc you're most likely going to meet (Male undead burg merchant) talks about how he is going to loot your corpse when you finally die for good.

Laurentius is probably the friendliest npc, and that's because you literally just saved him from being eaten alive. He trusts you, but he also has his own agenda. Trying to learn more exotic forms of pyromancy. So if you tell him about your higher level pyromancys he'll leave and go hollow down in blighttown. But if you refuse he says he trusts you and asks that you forget he ever asked. He's a lonely man and you're probably one of his first friends so it makes sense that he holds you in such high regard.

Compare that to Lautrec, who you let out of his cell, one that he can get out of himself. If you save him he repays the favor by helping you with some bosses and giving you a sunlight medal. After helping you a little, he will kill the firekeeper for firelink and make it so you can't rest there anymore. You have to find him again in Anor Londo and fight him so you can get the firekeeper's souls back.

Make other characters have their own goals and desires besides whatever the player wants.

I love that idea but how would that work for Fire Emblem? It's not an adventure/open world game like Dark Souls, so giving ALL the characters (there's 50+) their own agenda might be tedious. They're soldiers, they have to listen to orders. If they had their own agenda, then we would have deserters every level. Some characters may not want to deploy a certain mission because they have something else to do. I can see it working if a certain character wanted to fulfill an optional mission during the level, but what other ways would you have characters maintain their own agenda?

[Zerosabers]

I love that idea but how would that work for Fire Emblem? It's not an adventure/open world game like Dark Souls, so giving ALL the characters (there's 50+) their own agenda might be tedious. They're soldiers, they have to listen to orders. If they had their own agenda, then we would have deserters every level. Some characters may not want to deploy a certain mission because they have something else to do. I can see it working if a certain character wanted to fulfill an optional mission during the level, but what other ways would you have characters maintain their own agenda?

Well if they join up with the player than most of their agenda's would coincide with what the player is attempting. Like how Gregor joins up with you because he's trying to protect Nowi and so are you. Then he stay with you probably because you're paying him. He has reasons for joining the player and staying with them. Unlike some other character who I have to ask, why are you here again? I'm not saying every single character absolutely needs a side objective for them. Just that they should have a reason for staying in the army, be it to protect their family or anything really.

Some of the bigger characters like matthew in FE7 could get their own side quests. Our thief might have heard about a bandit raid on his hometown and asks for us to try and save them. We then get a paralouge that opens up. However, instead of being able to do it at our leisure, if you wait too long to go there to protect the town it gets destroyed and the thief gets angry at you and leaves.

[veetasoy]

Yeah, fuck off with the worshipping. It's extremely tiring and completely takes me out of the experience. It gets to the point where I wish characters would just hate me and ridicule me once in a while. Final Fantasy 7 did it well with Cloud since, while he was considered strong and cool, he was also pretty hated sometimes for being a prick. Developers are better off writing real characters instead of self-inserts, IMO. Makes the experience a much livelier one.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Here is where I would start saying something about hardware limitations, who knows honestly.

It doesn't sound too difficult I guess, but they might be accused of playing favorites, so everyone would sort of need their own, and that would be like what 60 new chapters? Damn

(Well...there is a sizable, I guess, opinion that if they didn't have the whole my castle thing they would have more space but..eh)

[NekoKnight]

*snip*

While it's reasonable for side characters to get most of their development through support conversations, I don't think the main character should have their character depth only alluded to in optional content. A player shouldn't need to go out of their way to search for the main character's interesting traits.

I love that idea but how would that work for Fire Emblem? It's not an adventure/open world game like Dark Souls, so giving ALL the characters (there's 50+) their own agenda might be tedious. They're soldiers, they have to listen to orders. If they had their own agenda, then we would have deserters every level. Some characters may not want to deploy a certain mission because they have something else to do. I can see it working if a certain character wanted to fulfill an optional mission during the level, but what other ways would you have characters maintain their own agenda?

I think a Dragon Age Origins approach would work. They are generally loyal to you but will turn on you if you do something extremely contrary to their beliefs.

[PK Gaming]

Wish fufillment is definitely a thing in Persona 4, but I don't think it's inherently a bad thing. The developpers knew exactly what they were doing when they set up the protagonist, and the excecution was top notch.Perhaps dating everyone at the same time wasn't my cup of tea, but as far as being able to interact with a virtual cast of characters and becoming seriously involved in their lives... P4 is pretty much second to none. It felt good helping Dojima overcoming his problems just by being there. It felt good hearing Ai Ebihara out on her legitimate problems and watching her grow as a person.

I don't think it's quite applicable to Fates, because Kamui seems more... defined than your typical self-incert. You can't choose his/her dialogue, and he honestly seems like a kind of a naive weeny. Sure you've got people who obsess over him/her, but I attribute that to your standard anime "everyone loves the MC" rather than loving the player. He/she honestly comes across as a damn weeny, especially in non-romantic supports.

[eclipse]

Leif was really well made.

Sigurd was mostly a flawless hero (and Seliph as well), but it worked because of the story (at least for Sigurd, because of the tragedy.)

For all that I dislike FE4, I like the fact that Sigurd tried to do everything right and didn't wind up with his happily every after ending.

Anyway Awakening actually sold more than twice as much internationally compared to Japan. However, I can't see them tailoring a FE completely for the West though, since that'd likely involve not only a more adult story, but also dumping the anime art style and such. Some aspects of FE are also held back due to the gameplay structure itself. For example, you aren't likely to get much tension among your own units, considering how it'd make no sense with the support system, and actually making a unit turn traitor or turn against the party would basically make it worthless gameplay-wise.

Well. . .

You can kill your own units in-game anyway. IIRC, you can also kill your units in-story, as well (though don't answer this, because I won't read it).

I don't think it would be worthless, if you wind up with a different unit instead (as an example). Think of the Samson/Arran choice, but instead of the other village closing, the one you didn't pick becomes a mini-boss.

Regardless, I would've loved a game where the maps/recruitable characters/endings were drastically affected by my choices throughout the game (not just one early-game choice). However, programming all of that in sounds like a nightmare and a half.

The exception would be Tharja/Syalla like characters, they'll love and stalk you no matter what.

Oooh, I got another interesting choice~!

Let's say you recruit the stalker character. What if he/she gets into a fight with the person you married as soon as you hit S with your spouse? If he/she wins, you lose your S-support (with no option of remarrying), and if he/she loses, you lose the stalker as a playable unit. If you marry your stalker, both of you lose supports with everyone else - you because your spouse chases them away, and your spouse because they're only interested in you.

Stuff like that would appeal to me just because I'm insane like that.

---

There's some self-insert things with Kamui (like how you treat your units in My Castle), but I would've liked much more story significance. For example. . .

You should have the option of killing Rinka/Suzukaze in Nohr, and have Rinka take the blow for Suzukaze instead (thus making it a LOT harder to go on the Hoshido path). I would've liked it if the path you chose would've been based on your early game decisions, rather than some dialogue box. But eh, wasted opportunity.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

I'd like a more realistic story experience; Make massive mistake, get kicked from army, lone wolf, feel constant rejection, drama, find true villain doing the same thing as you getting stronger, units join because they see a great potential leader and etc, all the way to the final battle between you and the villain and you become king/an icon, blah blah. (Cause it's just stupid when overpowered main villains could have just finished you from the Prologue)

I like to feel important, but I think it's better if you earn it throughout the game rather than given to you with cliche characters, story, backstory and etc.

[Vitezen]

Simplest way I can see is to just tie certain units to an alignment system. Taking certain actions, like recruiting certain units, making certain dialogue choices, and accomplishing certain objectives, moves you somewhere on the alignment scale. Go too far in one way or the other and some characters may leave, while others may only join if you're at a certain point or further on the scale.

[Rxmonste]

In the end, all I care about in this situation is context. If there's a reason why Kamui is a paragon of his families, then fine. But if they're treating him that way for little to no reason, it doesn't make sense at all and makes the story much less believable. Now as you said, it's a trope and it does indeed exist in games such as Persona 4. I don't agree with it though. After all, your game's story is much more interesting when you have to earn your respect instead of getting it glued to you from the get go.

Now I haven't played Fates yet but awakening has done this very notably, it seems that the only character that Robin didn't earn the respect of immediately was Frederick, everyone else worships Robin despite not knowing him that well, and it's not like he knew much about himself, either.

In the end, Kamui can be a chosen one, he can be an all powerful dragon of mass destruction, but that sure as hell doesn't require him to also be the most beloved figure there is.

In short, no I don't like it, it doesn't ruin the game for me but it detracts from the game's immersion factor. The Witcher deals with this exceptionally, Geralt is strong, powerful and exceptionally popular with at least his friends, on the other hand, he's unpopular with a lot of people, and suffers from racism aimed towards him for being a mutant freak to many people, and many people don't trust Witchers and or their methods. This adds a lot of depth to the game and Fire Emblem should take some notes from this.

EDIT: Accidental necropost, I apologize.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rxmonste

[eclipse]

Just. . .don't do it again. . .