Invisible Kingdom getting all the goodies

[Mango Giamatti]

Not fair for the developers? or the buyers? Alot of DLC like this seems to be just stuff to polish off an unfinished game. Giving it their own release makes no sense compared to Pokemon then, where they make it that you create your own adventure and virtually nothing is still different and your not missing anything. Have you heard Sakurai's thoughts on DLC? "it’s all about making players happy." Is he wrong? I see no point in buying both versions knowing they're pointless. Like what's the point if their gonna start with advertising the hell out of two versions that choices matter and all this amazing stuff, then to just casually tell us the real decisions is in which version you get then how much you're willing to pay.

How is this unfair to the buyers? It is hilarious that anyone would think that the Hoshido/Nohr paths are unfinished. How is buying both versions pointless? Yes, you can get most (not all) characters on the third route, but the character balance is different. Most of the maps are different. The story is different. So many people have cried and said that this is unfair, without saying why it is unfair. Furthermore, my earlier point still stands. What is the alternative? It does not matter if you think the way this was handled was bad, because this is still the least bad option.

[Jokoister]

From what I've heard/read. The invisible kingdom offers close to the entire roster of characters, a superior neutral route with less consequence

avoids sibling and other character death

More weapons with a shared shop, more supports between characters, and I would assume more optional content since you have access to all the child paralouges. Possibly some other things i don't know about.

I wouldn't know if it's more gameplay balanced than the other routes,(I've heard there's a difficulty spike somewhere in the 3rd route).

Overall if you were to buy Nohr/Hoshido then buy this path, it would probably just be more of the game you just played but with characters of the other faction in it with a varying difficulty .

I still agree with the notion that people should have the option to buy this game first as it does have an edge over the other 2 paths.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Jokoister

[Thane]

From what I've heard/read. The invisible kingdom offers close to the entire roster of characters, a superior neutral route with less consequence

avoids sibling and other character death

More weapons with a shared shop, more supports between characters, and I would assume more optional content since you have access to all the child paralouges. Possibly some other things i don't know about.

I wouldn't know if it's more gameplay balanced than the other routes,(I've heard there's a difficulty spike somewhere in the 3rd route).

Overall if you were to buy Nohr/Hoshido then buy this path, it would probably just be more of the game you just played but with characters of the other faction in it with a varying difficulty .

I still agree with the notion that people should have the option to buy this game first as it does have an edge over the other 2 paths.

It's all very subjective, but I see no reason to play through Birthright ever again, and I'll only play through Conquest again for the difficulty, since the third path has the other two routes beaten in pretty much every regard. For the completionists out there, it also offers all the characters aside from I believe three, so it'll also be the path for those who want to breed the perfect army for the more difficult DLC maps that are sure to be released.

[Shadow Knight]

Yes because this is totally capcom, IS is giving us 3 full games. Not some extra little side thing that isn't worth the money at all.

Your guys entitlement is hilarious. "Oh waaaah IS is doing more for us, they gotta BURN"

Lol, some people are never satisfied. First they hate reclassing, then they hate how they can't max stats. Then they say they want a more mature story but all of a sudden the story is too bittersweet or "dark" and leaves certain things unanswered.

Honestly from what I've seen of Fates the games' have their faults, but I'll tip my hat to IS this time. I mean for the first time the series has 3 separate games essentially being released at once. Each one is at least the length of Awakening's story. And while the DLC whoring is real most of it is quality. I don't really see a problem with giving certain advantages such as extra mycastle items and such to those who own the 3rd path bc they paid more money. But most importantly the franchise essentially got 3 new games in the span of 3 years!

Edited July 12, 2015 by Shadow Knight

[flamingtoastjpn]

I don't think its fair, because regardless of what's in the third path, I was really looking forward to playing Fire Emblem multiplayer, and 3'rd path utterly breaks the balance of the game. Pay more for the third path? You have insane skills and a huge advantage over others in multiplayer. Shame.

Other than that, I think that people should be able to just buy the third path, locking the "true ending" and the path with arguably the most content behind a paywall that you can't even access without buying Hoshido/Nohr seems like a dick move to me.

Edited July 12, 2015 by flamingtoastjpn

[Thane]

Lol, some people are never satisfied. First they hate reclassing, then they hate how they can't max stats. Then they say they want a more mature story but all of a sudden the story is too bittersweet or "dark" and leaves certain things unanswered.

I can only speak for myself, but to me it seems Intelligent Systems are the ones who are afraid of the story being too dark, not the players. Otherwise they wouldn't have two bittersweet endings and one that solves absolutely everything.

As for leaving things unanswered, that's to be expected in a branching game such as this. However, whenever I have complained about it, it has been about how it seems as if though chunks of content was removed late into development to give people incentive to buy the third path. Conquest has a LOT of filler chapters and explains almost nothing that's important in the grand scheme of the story.

Also, and I believe you know this, the people who complained about Awakening's reclassing aren't necessarily the ones who are complaining about Fates' reclassing system now. You're making some very strange assumptions.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Thane

[goodperson707]

^^ you can get all those skills or characters by buying them though. only difference in multiplayer balance i see is that gold farming is slower on nohr, but it is still possible.

Edited July 12, 2015 by goodperson707

[Shadow Knight]

I can only speak for myself, but to me it seems Intelligent Systems are the ones who are afraid of the story being too dark, not the players. Otherwise they wouldn't have two bittersweet endings and one that solves absolutely everything.

As for leaving things unanswered, that's to be expected in a branching game such as this. However, whenever I have complained about it, it seems as if though chunks of content was removed late into development to give people incentive to buy the third path. Conquest has a LOT of filler chapters and explains almost nothing that's important in the grand scheme of the story.

Also, and I believe you know this, the people who complained about Awakening's reclassing aren't necessarily the ones who are complaining about Fates' reclassing system now. You're making some very strange assumptions.

You missed my point which is that you cannot please everybody. I wasn't addressing you or anyone at all directly. I wasn't making any assumptions about anyone that weren't un-warranted. There have been people who have complained about the new class system and there have been those who have praised it. Heck there was an entire thread based upon strategic reclassing in order to take advantage of the RNG multipliers in order to max the stats of characters where this was discussed.

Personally I don't think IS is afraid of dark stories, they've done them before with FE4 and Mystery of the Emblem (poor hardin)

Edited July 12, 2015 by Shadow Knight

[Thane]

You missed my point which is that you cannot please everybody. I wasn't addressing you or anyone at all directly. I wasn't making any assumptions about anyone that weren't un-warranted. There have been people who have complained about the new class system and there have been those who have praised it. Heck there was an entire thread based upon strategic reclassing in order to take advantage of the RNG multipliers in order to max the stats of characters where this was discussed.

Personally I don't think IS is afraid of dark stories, they've done them before with FE4 and Mystery of the Emblem (poor hardin)

While it's certainly true some people are never satisfied, the way you phrased it made it seem like you thought it was the very same people who wanted a "mature" story and then complained about it being too dark.

Also, your last sentence makes no sense; they've made dark games so they can't be afraid of making new dark games? A lot of people loved Awakening's cheerful tone, which is probably one of the reasons why it sold so well - that if anything would make them very afraid of writing something that could alienate their new fans, so they have one ending which people simply can't find sad and thus once again they try to have their cake and eat it too.

Ugh, I hate talking about "dark" stories as if "edgier" themes somehow make games, books or movies better when written poorly it usually has the opposite effect.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Thane

[S_Cero]

You miss out on a grand total of three characters. Compared to the 20 or so you don't get in each of other two routes. And you get a new character that isn't in either of the others.

Two really, since Crimson is playable for a little while, but I'll admit that doesn't really count.

Not to mention how the characters you miss out on are Kamui only support characters. So you're not even truly missing out on full character compared to the rest of the cast. Just a "spotpass" character.

[HK Motendra]

The only actual thing worth complaining about here is why there HAD to be two versions of the game + a 3rd, when you could have had one game with a drastically branching story (picking a side), like it was advertised to be, and THEN a DLC neutral route. It'd be something sorta but not entirely similar to Dynasty Warriors, where you see its progressions through the eyes of each of the 3 Kindoms (and even THOSE branched out via hypothetical interest), but with an avatar being stuck in the middle (still wishing for a Dynasty Emblem). The fact that the "choice" is already decided when you buy one version just wastes the dilemma of the CH when it eventually comes. But when you think about it, do you REALLY think one cartridge, A 3DS cartridge can hold what is essentially 2 + 1 games worth of content? I mean, they possibly could IF (ha, pun) the only difference in the game is which side you're fighting on and each CH map was the same, with some exclusives here and there. But as you can see, IS went the extra mile and as a result, two separate games happened. Call it a scheme for money all you want, I find it necessary, even if its still a bummer. But they were generous enough to give the other versions at a reduced DLC price. Ya can't knock that against them, if money's an issue.

Overall, I see Birthright and Conquest as hypotheticals, hence why its subtitled as If. Perhaps you just need to look at it differently, as oppose to it as just "3rd route curb stomping the previous two" and then just leave the rest to your imagination.

I mean forreal, how do you expect one army to contest whats essentially a God, who uses the dead against you, right after ending a war between two parties with yours as the victor? Incoming demolition.

That being said, after watching early streams of the game, I myself wouldn't call the two versions "incomplete", when you look at them from a stand-alone view. But hey, thats just me

[Mango Giamatti]

That being said, after watching early streams of the game, I myself wouldn't call the two versions "incomplete", when you look at them from a stand-alone view. But hey, thats just me

If the two versions were complete, then why do you say that Hoshido and Nohr should be packaged together? What you suggest is basically IS giving you one campaign for free. They have no reason to do that.

[Party Moth]

Personally I don't think IS is afraid of dark stories, they've done them before with FE4 and Mystery of the Emblem (poor hardin)

IS hasn't made a mature story in years. Fates is not the game to break that trend.

[HK Motendra]

If the two versions were complete, then why do you say that Hoshido and Nohr should be packaged together? What you suggest is basically IS giving you one campaign for free. They have no reason to do that.

You're asking the wrong question here. The real question is why they have to be separated, which I already explained a possible reason. Not that I'm against the two versions, cause its too late for that, and I already plan to buy all 3 campaigns. Its only a thought.

And you've got people in here saying its a money scheme to have them divided as they are, but if my thought is true, IS was actually rather generous to give the other at a discount download rather than paying full price for each version , like say.... Pokemon. Which is my point

[Mango Giamatti]

You're asking the wrong question here. The real question is why they have to be separated, which I already explained a possible reason. Not that I'm against the two versions, cause its too late for that, and I already plan to buy all 3 campaigns. Its only a thought.

And you've got people in here saying its a money scheme to have them divided as they are, but if my thought is true, IS was actually rather generous to give the other at a discount download rather than paying full price for each version , like say.... Pokemon. Which is my point

lol, they have to be separated because they are separate games. Packaging them together is selling two games as one, and as I previously said, is basically giving away a game for free. It's only fair if they are separated.

However, that's not the point of this thread. The point of the thread is whether or not the third path is fair. And it is fair, or at least it is the most fair option. It is designed to be the bonus route that you enjoy more after playing one of the others. It's only natural that it should only be available after you play your first route. Who knows, maybe in a few months time they'll pull a New Super Luigi U and give this it's own physical release, but it makes no sense for them to do it right after the other two routes released.

[S_Cero]

Well the point of quite a number of the game is "gimmicky" of their own sorts.....

I don't really mind reusing the maps, though I understand why, I suppose I'll look through what maps there are then

H7: No Gimmick. Same map as I8, though starting point is different

H8: Desert map, gimmick is to change terrain to normal

H9: No Gimmick. Same map (and boss) as N18

H10: Gimmick is traps (I believe it's optional). Same map (and boss) as I10

H11: Lots of flyers. Gimmick is to slow down flyers. Same map as N16

H12: Escape map. Gimmick is to freeze water. Same map as N14

H13: Gimmick is damage. Same map as N13

H14: Gimmick is to "deal 30 damage to some enemies".

H15: Gimmick isn't important

H16: Some turrets

H17: Same map as N8

H18: Gimmick is reinforcements

H19: Same map as N11, I10. Gimmick is stairs

H20: Gimmick isn't very important

H21: Gimmick is lava, which slows you down and does some damage.

H22: More turrets. Gimmick is just healing

H23: Gimmick is damage, but only the enemy can use it.

H24: Gimmick is slowing down flyers

H25: No gimmicks

H26: 1 on 1 against the boss, no gimmick (I think)

H27: No gimmicks

HE: Gimmick is healing the boss, infinite reinforcements

N7: Initially quite badly outnumbered, not so bad by the end

N8: Gimmick is shutting off enemy "reinforcements". Same map as H17

N9: "Gimmick" is trying to keep Azura safe. And 1 shot of some damage

N10: Defense Mission. Gimmick is that the chokepoints disappear halfway through, large numbers of reinforcements, and turrets. Same map as I14.

N11: Same map as H19, I15. Stairs.

N12: Timed escape mission with pots in the way

N13: Same map as H13

N14: Same map as H12.

N15: Timed escape mission with copycat gimmick. Same map as I19

N16: Same map as H11. Gimmick is that the boss is hidden as an NPC.

N17: Traps

N18: Timed defeat boss map. Same map as H9

N19: Gimmick is that enemies can turn invisible

N20: Gimmick is wind that blows you around. Same map as I9

N21: Escape mission. Gimmick is infinite reinforcements, and some ability to freeze enemies

N22: Gimmick is destroying walls

N23: No gimmicks. Enemy has turrets though

N24: No gimmicks

N25: 1 on 1 vs the boss. Gimmick is that the doors open when you defeat a certain unit

N26: No gimmicks

N27: No gimmicks

NE: Gimmick is that boss has a map attack, and your counter is limited ability to block it. Enemy can walk over terrain that you can't, infinite reinforcements.

I7: Gimmick is "fog of war" map. It's more like rooms of sorts.

I8: Same map as H7, but different starting position

I9: Wind map. Same map as N20

I10: Gimmick is also a pseudo "fog of war" map, you break ice to reveal enemies

I11: Gimmick is map damage. You can shut it off, but it'll just come back

I12: Gimmick is limited terrain.

I13: Gimmick is ability to place obstacles. Not terribly exciting.

I14: Same map as N7

I15: Same map as H19, N11. Stairs

I16: Gimmick is flame walls.

I17: No gimmick

I18: Gimmick is teleporters, requires 8 dragonveins to proceed

I19: Same map as N15. Timed escape mission, copycats as well (such a rip off)

I20: Gimmick is movable bridges

I21: Gimmick is that enemy units promote or demote depending on the terrain

I22: Gimmick is burning down forests

I23: Gimmick is now moving bridges

I24: Gimmick is stealth mission and/or doors. Opening the wrong door deals damage

I25: Gimmick is platforms. Requires 3 Dragonveins to proceed.

I26: Gimmick is reinforcements that can be stopped by dragonveins, though it requires refreshing or it'll run out

I27: No real gimmicks

IE: Infinite reinforcements, gimmicks is 4 actual bosses.

Arguably some of the gimmicks are more important, or completely necessary though

I'm now talking more about the game mechanics and battles...I guess it's still somewhat related?

May not be entirely 3rd route, but it feels like the maps are hard, but the bosses easy.

Of course..they still hurt like freaking trucks, but the fact that you have tanks (Cough Xander, Leo, Camilla) is great.

Including the 6 chapter prologue

Hoshido: 14 shared to 14 unique

Nohr: 15 shared to 13 unique

Invisible: 11 shared to 19 unique

Yeah, not a huge fan of this. I'm surprised Nohr has the most.

[NekoKnight]

Considering the shared assets, characters and chapters, it's incorrect to say that we got "3 new games". I think the pricing model is reasonable but not as generous as people claim. It's probably as much *new* content to be two games and that's the price you pay with the discount.

I'm more concerned with the 3rd route being better than the other two. In Hoshido and Nohr, you pretty much can't get the other sides weapons beyond the basics. The 3rd route gets all the weapon/item shops. The 3rd route My Castle is better than Hoshido/Nohr in every way and that's just not fair to have to pay extra for the complete package.

[Mango Giamatti]

It baffles me that people claim that Hoshido/Nohr paths are incomplete because you can't access the other shop. That's such a tiny, insignificant thing! What a weird place to draw a line in the sand. Is a game like Shadow Dragon incomplete because it doesn't have reaver weapons?

Can someone explain to me how the third route invalidates the others? I understand that it has more characters and better shops, but that doesn't mean that the other paths are irrelevant. Lastly, what is the alternative? What would a "fairer" option look like? It doesn't matter if you think that this current method is unfair, if it is still be most fair option.

[Folt]

As far as Invisible Kingdom goes, I don't think that it will stop me from playing Birthright or Conquest. True, it's the closest to the Golden Ending, and the benefits seem to outweigh the drawbacks on paper, but something about the other two routes makes me drawn to them in a manner that the third route can't replicate.

[Dark Sage]

The main issues people are having with this are:

1. You have to buy both routes before getting the neutral one. I understand that this is meant to be the Golden path, the one that explains everything, unites the casts, blah blah blah, but that segues into the second contested point which is

2. The Neutral route is clearly the best one in gameplay and in terms of getting a resolution to the story. It's the route that explains the underlying conflict, that fills in all the points missed in the other two, that explains what the deal is up with those Phantom enemies, etc. It's also the route with most characters (twice the amount of either route), has the best shops, the best options for postgame, etc. This may have been why that paywall was used so that people wouldn't ignore the other one but honestly it shouldn't be clearly flat out better than either route.

Although really, the third route as is probably should've been done completely differently. Instead of being a third path you have to buy, you would have both versions give you the opportunity to either stick with their chosen path, or go neutral. Each version would have it's own neutral route in a sense; instead of getting full access to the other cast, you just get partial and a couple of your allies might even desert you. So if you initially went Hoshido for example, you could recruit Camilla, Elise, their subordinates, and Charlotte but you lose Oboro and can't get any of the other Nohr exclusives. Since they'd retain their initial gameplay models (Nohr!Neutral has no world map/grinding, Hoshido!Neutral allows for that), it would make each version feel distinct. It also makes the initial choice more meaningful and would probably be less work on the developers. And since they'd be already programmed into the two versions, you wouldn't have to pay extra to play them.

Also it's an exaggeration to call them three separate games because they share assets and even use the same maps. I'm not even sure you could say they're equivalent to two separate games either (though it'd be a lot closer to that than other SRPGs with multiple routes like Tactics Ogre or Langrisser).

Edited July 13, 2015 by Dark Sage

[S_Cero]

Can someone explain to me how the third route invalidates the others?

Well, let's count off what the 3rd route has over the other two (this is just off the top of my head): most closure of the stories, able to fully take advantage of the multiplayer features (access to both weapon types, both class types, grinding, etc), most characters (barring 3 characters with "spotpass" level relevancy among your team), most customization of My Castle (two of the harvesting places, both shops, able to choose which my castle aesthetic you want), the most characters, support conversations, and pairing options. Frankly the only thing it doesn't really have is the difficulty of Nohr so it doesn't completely invalidate Nohr, but I'm struggling to think up reasons to play Hoshido unless you really want to see [spoiler=story stuff]Marx kill Elise in 3D.

[Folt]

I consider all the routes as having enough content to be separate. The three routes diverge enough from each other, and I don't feel that having shared content means I'm getting less for my buck: What the content is actually used for for each route matters more to me than having everything be different, and if my playtime for all routes exceed 60 hours or so (and more with DLC), I'd have gotten my money's worth.

[Mango Giamatti]

Well, let's count off what the 3rd route has over the other two (this is just off the top of my head): most closure of the stories, able to fully take advantage of the multiplayer features (access to both weapon types, both class types, grinding, etc), most characters (barring 3 characters with "spotpass" level relevancy among your team), most customization of My Castle (two of the harvesting places, both shops, able to choose which my castle aesthetic you want), the most characters, support conversations, and pairing options. Frankly the only thing it doesn't really have is the difficulty of Nohr so it doesn't completely invalidate Nohr, but I'm struggling to think up reasons to play Hoshido unless you really want to see

Your response ignored the question. I didn't ask how the third path is better than the others, I asked how it invalidates them. Each path is still it's own separate experience. People don't always play the best version of something. You could argue that FE12 is a better version of FE11, but FE12's existence, in and of itself, is not a reason to no longer play FE11. At the end of the day, each route has enough content to be it's own separate entity. Because some content is shared, the other routes are offered as DLC at a reduced price, as opposed to offered as a whole retail game.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Zvarri!

[Mango Giamatti]

The main issues people are having with this are:

1. You have to buy both routes before getting the neutral one. I understand that this is meant to be the Golden path, the one that explains everything, unites the casts, blah blah blah, but that segues into the second contested point which is

Is this really true? Everything else that I have seen indicates that you can buy this after reaching chapter six of version that you bought.

[S_Cero]

It invalidates it in my eyes because it is designed to be the best of the versions. Your FE11/12 analogy doesn't fit properly, this is more similar to the third versions of the Pokémon games than say Black/White to Black2/White2. They're designed to be the best of the games. If you had to choose between Sapphire or Emerald versions. You would have little to no reasons to ever pick Sapphire over Emerald. Better story, better features, etc. Just because Sapphire is it's own experience doesn't stop Emerald from being superior in virtually every way. It's the same with the third route it's designed to be the superior experience because of what I listed. The fact that this was released so quickly doesn't help the problem since they weren't able to stand on their own for a while before the superior version came out unlike Sapphire, Ruby, etc.