General US Politics

[Tryhard]

2 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I've been beaten up and called a girl because people thought I was gay.  I've had to deal with stereotypes, but I don't want to take away people's ability to voice their opinions, just because there are extremists in every ideological camp.  I don't think I'm going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me.

I'm not a libertarian not because I agree lock-stock-and-barrel with everything the Libertarian Party, they just agree with most, but not all, of my beliefs, more so than the Democrats or Republicans do at least.

Well yeah, I was just saying that being against monopolies is actually kinda against popular libertarian thought. The mainstay of libertarian economic politics is laissez-faire capitalism, and they believe if the government isn't involved, that The Free Market(TM) will solve the problem.

It's okay though, you don't have to agree with everything that a label package has. I'm a social democrat but my views on nationalism is that it is sometimes right, in the case where my country has a branch of nationalism that is center-left in nature and is wanting independence from the rest of the UK. This would be an unusual thought for most left-wingers who dislike nationalism in its entirety.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Tryhard

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

What are you calling my stance?

Because I think it's pretty clear. Deplatform racists. Reforming racists doesn't work. Engaging rush Limbaugh and Alex Jones in honest dialogue doesn't fucking work, and it's been shown over and over again.

And the fact that they can rope people in and radicalize is a major issue that you guys are ignoring. Because it's been ignored and not dealt with and you end up with the death of Heather Heyer in the Charlottesville protest and the president saying there's good people on both sides of a march where one side is white supremacists.

That you're in favor of deplatforming because it currently aligns with your personal views.  I don't care whether it's race-related or not.  I care about the underlying logic.

[Lord Raven]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

That you're in favor of deplatforming because it currently aligns with your personal views.  I don't care whether it's race-related or not.  I care about the underlying logic.

The underlying logic is that this is a problem that is continuously perpetuated throughout society, actively harming society, and actively harming minorities and we as a society need to take responsibility.

This is not a difference of opinion and it's nowhere near as simple as that.

You're strawmanning my point. Everyone should be anti-racist to ensure equality for all -- that's part of what America is supposed to preach, is it not? To say otherwise is willful ignorance. Making it into a general concept and saying it's on the citizens to police themselves (including companies) is a point to be made.

The fact that Germany has done this to great effect by having significantly less white supremacy than the US is amazing, but the fact that people raise a stink when we try to deplatform racists like Steve Bannon in the US is absolutely nuts. Do you want to curb racism or not?

The fact that you're saying racism is a matter of opinion is absolutely absurd. Why do we have protections based on race and sex? It's just an opinion that races and sexes are equal, after all!

Edited June 20, 2020 by Lord Raven

[eclipse]

Just now, Lord Raven said:

The underlying logic is that this is a problem that is continuously perpetuated throughout society, actively harming society, and actively harming minorities and we as a society need to take responsibility.

This is not a difference of opinion and it's nowhere near as simple as that.

You're strawmanning my point. Everyone should be anti-racist to ensure equality for all -- that's part of what America is supposed to preach, is it not? To say otherwise is willful ignorance.

No, I'm not.  And I'm going to use my religion as an example of it, because I STILL think you don't get it.

I'm Christian, so in theory a government run on Christian principles should be something that I want.  It aligns with what I believe in.  Except that I don't want this at all.  Just because it's good FOR ME doesn't necessarily mean that it's good for everyone.  Furthermore, if I woke up and Sharia law was in effect, I'd be pissed.

Now, back to your argument.  No matter how passionate you are about race, you have to truly understand why deplatforming is dangerous.  Some dumbshits on my local newspaper's comments section mentioned that these riots over race only happen in blue places, implying that there's something wrong with Democrats in general.  I think it's because no one would bat an eye in a red state.  Now imagine if the morons who made those comments in my paper had the power to remove your opinion from Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/other big place.

[Rezzy]

6 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Well yeah, I was just saying that being against monopolies is actually kinda against popular libertarian thought. The mainstay of libertarian economic politics is laissez-faire capitalism, and they believe if the government isn't involved, that The Free Market(TM) will solve the problem.

It's okay though, you don't have to agree with everything that a label package has. I'm a social democrat but my views on nationalism is that it is sometimes right, in the case where my country has a branch of nationalism that is center-left in nature and is wanting independence from the rest of the UK. This would be an unusual thought for most left-wingers who dislike nationalism in its entirety.

Yeah, monopolies go against the idea that anybody can start their own business and be successful, so I'm in favor of keeping monopolies in check for that reason.  Another reason I'm wary of what Disney's been trying to do, but that's another story.

It's one reason I don't like how insurance is set up in America currently.  If you're not part of a big hospital group, some insurances won't being you "in network" even if you want to, which rubs me the wrong way.

[Lord Raven]

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Now, back to your argument.  No matter how passionate you are about race, you have to truly understand why deplatforming is dangerous.  Some dumbshits on my local newspaper's comments section mentioned that these riots over race only happen in blue places, implying that there's something wrong with Democrats in general.  I think it's because no one would bat an eye in a red state.  Now imagine if the morons who made those comments in my paper had the power to remove your opinion from Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/other big place

And they do if they can make those platforms. And I will continue to pressure them for standing for racism. So long as they don't run the government and put that into the government, by all means!

But as it stands, those platforms have been fully fucking complicit in systems designed to kill and discriminate against black people and other disadvantaged people. They should fix their mess and not give Alex Jones a platform for free speech if they have the power to prevent it.

I mean, you guys don't allow racism right? If I posted an article saying that black people like Obama are uppity n words then I'd be banned here. But you guys literally do it. Your only argument is that those companies are of much bigger scale, which is basically saying Facebook is a form of government and not a private company like it is. So is it a private company or government?

If it were government run, then your argument is valid. But my argument is not a legal one. It's a moral one. Don't conflate the two in any way possible, the platforms have a moral obligation to not allow people who stroke hatred such as Alex Jones on it. The only reason Trump even has a Twitter right now is because he's the president; if you copy trump tweets you get banned because of how vile they are.

Racism is not just an opinion and it's absolutely fucked up you're trying to make an argument that it is. And you're continuing to tell me I don't get it when I provided an example of German law. There are massive massive failures in our society, including our media and education, that is allowing racism to propagate and you guys are currently railing against any restrictions that the private media may oppose because racism is just an opinion.

It's a shame that you guys are attempting to downplay one of the greatest evils of our country and not encouraging private companies to help the movement along. Especially since you can Google any number of articles that empirically show deplatforming hatred works far better than deplatforming anti-hatred. People have tried to do the latter for centuries and they're on the wrong side of history now.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

And they do if they can make those platforms. And I will continue to pressure them for standing for racism. So long as they don't run the government and put that into the government, by all means!

But as it stands, those platforms have been fully fucking complicit in systems designed to kill and discriminate against black people and other disadvantaged people. They should fix their mess and not give Alex Jones a platform for free speech if they have the power to prevent it.

I mean, you guys don't allow racism right? If I posted an article saying that black people like Obama are uppity n words then I'd be banned here. But you guys literally do it. Your only argument is that those companies are of much bigger scale, which is basically saying Facebook is a form of government and not a private company like it is. So is it a private company or government?

If it were government run, then your argument is valid. But my argument is not a legal one. It's a moral one. Don't conflate the two in any way possible, the platforms have a moral obligation to not allow people who stroke hatred such as Alex Jones on it. The only reason Trump even has a Twitter right now is because he's the president; if you copy trump tweets you get banned because of how vile they are.

Racism is not just an opinion and it's absolutely fucked up you're trying to make an argument that it is. And you're continuing to tell me I don't get it when I provided an example of German law. There are massive massive failures in our society, including our media and education, that is allowing racism to propagate and you guys are currently railing against any restrictions that the private media may oppose because racism is just an opinion.

It's a shame that you guys are attempting to downplay one of the greatest evils of our country and not encouraging private companies to help the movement along. Especially since you can Google any number of articles that empirically show deplatforming hatred works far better than deplatforming anti-hatred. People have tried to do the latter for centuries and they're on the wrong side of history now.

. . .yeah, you still think it's only about race, without seeing the bigger picture.  Given that you were able to change your mind about gun control (for the better IMO, and I thought it was cool), I think you'll understand why I hold this stance later on in life.

Just remember that those who aren't for deplatforming may have issues that extend beyond racism.  I, for one, think that religion and racism are tied together in America, and that infuriates me.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, that's not a way to talk to me. Gun control is government end, this is private company end.

If they ban Christianity, I'll attack them for that, as will many others. As I said, it's on us as a society -- including our media -- to correct these wrongs that have perpetuated. One way is deplatforming racists.

I'm specifically talking about racism, but you're implying private companies should not be able to regulate what they want. Even though this, a private website, does. Then don't moderate at all, if your view is that deplatforming anything bad is bad. But I shouldn't expect any less from a website who hired a red hat as a mod and suspended a user who called a racist user... A racist... For being racist against his people lmfao like seriously what the fuck?

Don't give me this "wait till you get older" bullshit. I've seen no attempt to try to engage or even talk about the various examples I've brought up, I've just seen a repeat of platitudes and condescension.

The fact that you're calling racism a point of view is FUCKING insane and is clearly a fundamental disagreement, you know that? It's not a point of view that black people are slaughtered like fucking dogs and our government is obsessed with listening to its people and lifting protections for historically disenfranchised classes because the people refuse to do jack and shit and just let people with big voices use their platform to spread hate. They're all complicit, as is this forum right now in my viewpoint.

Nobody is even explaining to me what they think my viewpoint is, despite my request. Because I'm literally hyperfocused on race, and the argument is that bigotry is similar in magnitude to violence, and not a matter of opinion.

 

 

I am VEHEMENTLY opposed to hate speech laws. I believe the onus is on us to police one another, even through our companies. How that is controversial is beyond me.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Lord Raven

[Armchair General]

I'm confused here, I thought religion and racism where two separate  things?

[Lord Raven]

2 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

I'm confused here, I thought religion and racism where two separate  things?

I'm an agnostic but I'll be labeled a Muslim by a hateful red hat.

They're deeply intertwined. But being anti-a certain religion is the exact same concept as being racist, to me, so I'm not sure at all what the argument is. It's a slippery slope fallacy given form.

[Armchair General]

1 minute ago, Lord Raven said:

I'm an agnostic but I'll be labeled a Muslim by a hateful red hat.

They're deeply intertwined. But being anti-a certain religion is the exact same concept as being racist, to me, so I'm not sure at all what the argument is. It's a slippery slope fallacy given form.

But what if it's for a certain reason, like Scientology or the FLDS? Westboro?

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Yeah, that's not a way to talk to me.

This is not how to respond to ANYONE in any sort of discussion.  If you can't put aside your emotions to understand what is fundamentally wrong with your idea, then I think you need to step away from it.

Just now, Armchair General said:

I'm confused here, I thought religion and racism where two separate  things?

Normally - yes.

America is not so clear-cut.  A quick look at the religious affiliation of our leaders (including Congress) throughout history will show an ovewhelmingly Christian bias.  The current Republican party, president included, panders hard to a specific sect of Christianity.  Meanwhile, nonsense like abortion is STILL a political issue because that apparently makes more sense than making lives better for the poor or something sane like that.

My take is that a shake from the top is necessary - and for that, the brand of Christianity that the Republicans are espousing needs to be rooted out.  It will help to alleviate the race issue, at least.

[Lord Raven]

2 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

But what if it's for a certain reason, like Scientology or the FLDS? Westboro?

If they post hate speech, then their posts should be removed and they should be deplatformed. Where's the ambiguity here?

Quote

This is not how to respond to ANYONE in any sort of discussion.  If you can't put aside your emotions to understand what is fundamentally wrong with your idea, then I think you need to step away from it.

I think you're confusing my vehement disagreement with your lack of a decent argument. You're just trying to shut down an argument with "get older" instead of explaining anything. This is literally all you do, you aren't making anything resembling an attempt you're just trying to re-explain your platitude instead of address any single argument I have made.

I fully understand your argument. I find your argument weak and I'm pointing out what I disagree with. You need to stop pretending like your viewpoint is some wise shit that I need to listen to. It's not. We've been over this multiple times and you haven't responded to my request that you address the argument instead of your perception that I don't understand.

You're just sidestepping the argument to condescend. Hence, that's not a way you should talk to me, especially when this forum hired a transphobe as a mod.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Lord Raven

[Tryhard]

I believe there are two points of view from left-wingers about how to combat bigoted views.

The first is what Raven is saying. To deplatform them and to shove them to the darkest corners that they can be.

The second is what I prefer and involves making them look as ridiculous as possible. These peoples ideologies are paper thin and can be easily dismantled even if they will always act in bad faith. There is not much that isn't pathetic about an ideology that is insisting that you are special not because of your own achievements, but because of the race you had no choice in being born as.

I don't doubt that Sartre was personally exhausted about having to argue with people that really weren't attempting to make a good point, but no matter how tiring it may be, he is essentially just saying to give up. Just because there will always be people that listen to Alex Jones shouldn't change that.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Tryhard

[Armchair General]

Well, you can't just separate Christianity from America. I mean, the country was founded by them, laws were based off it (anti-abortian laws and gambling regulations in Oklahoma if you want an example) and it's essentially one of the dominant (if not divisive) religions in the country

[Lord Raven]

5 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

The second is what I prefer and involves making them look as ridiculous as possible. These peoples ideologies are paper thin and can be easily dismantled even if they will always act in bad faith. There is not much that isn't pathetic about an ideology that is insisting that you are special not because of your own achievements, but because of the race you had no choice in being born as.

Lol this is really easy to say when white people are like 70% of the west and have made little attempt to combat racism until 2020. Turns out one way was to deplatform them, either by screaming at them like this or by throwing them off a platform. You can't convince these idiots because, frankly, if the view were logical then you can use logic to cure it. But the view is not logical.

By giving a viewpoint from a bad faith actor oxygen you acknowledge the legitimacy of their point. Fuck that. Maybe if white people made a better attempt at this by actually socially punishing racists this argument wouldn't be happening. But as it stands, too many people are impressionable and apolitical for this to be a viable strategy.

Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh, and even modern cunts like Hannity and Tucker Carlson are getting ads removed as a form of deplatforming their viewpoints, as well. But somehow deplatform is being taken as silenced; if it's within my power, I'd ban every racist possible because I've only ever heard white people (and clipsey lol) talk about how we should hear these racists out. I've spent four years doing it and nothing's happened, too.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Lord Raven

[Tryhard]

2 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Lol this is really easy to say when white people are like 70% of the west and have made no attempt to combat racism until 2020. Turns out one way was to deplatform them, either by screaming at them like this or by throwing them off a platform.

By giving a viewpoint from a bad faith actor oxygen you acknowledge the legitimacy of their point. Fuck that. Maybe if white people made a better attempt at this by actually socially punishing racists this argument wouldn't be happening. But as it stands, too many people are impressionable and apolitical for this to be a viable strategy.

You are never actually trying to convince Richard Spencer. You already know that he is inconvertable. You are there to show everyone else watching that Richard Spencer is a fucking idiot. This does not take a lot of brainpower to do.

I'm not sure deplatforming will actually do much. All that will fuel is their persecution complex, which sadly at least some people seem to take as if they are being shunned, they are talking truths.

By no means should you randomly invite people on your show, in fact I would say that is counter-productive, but I have watched several left-wing channels that have done things like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cKNhjQHWFo

[Lord Raven]

6 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I'm not sure deplatforming will actually do much. All that will fuel is their persecution complex, which sadly at least some people seem to take as if they are being shunned, they are talking truths.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-bans-work

Quote

“We’ve been running a research project over last year, and when someone relatively famous gets no platformed by Facebook or Twitter or YouTube, there's an initial flashpoint, where some of their audience will move with them” Joan Donovan, Data and Society’s platform accountability research lead, told me on the phone, “but generally the falloff is pretty significant and they don’t gain the same amplification power they had prior to the moment they were taken off these bigger platforms.”

Preliminary research on reddit has shown this as well. I'm going with the research here, and the fact that Germany has literally done it for 75 years without a measurable Nazi movement.

6 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

You are never actually trying to convince Richard Spencer. You already know that he is inconvertable. You are there to show everyone else watching that Richard Spencer is a fucking idiot. This does not take a lot of brainpower to do.

Richard Spencer is literally the kind of person to deplatform on social media. Arguing with someone who is entrenched is a waste, because the people surrounding will often be entrenched already. But these places don't do their damage because they debate with Richard Spencer, these places do their damage because they apply fascist tactics and only allow the vulnerable in.

To preserve the vulnerable and allow them to learn on their own -- you, as a society, remove an easily accessible platform rather than try to argue with the opposition in public. Because the opposition will never allow you to be in an open environment full of impressionable people without being on their own terms.

If you give them a platform, you can let them act like victims without them actually being victims. If you deplatform them, their victimhood isn't widespread.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Lord Raven

[eclipse]

5 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Well, you can't just separate Christianity from America. I mean, the country was founded by them, laws were based off it (anti-abortian laws and gambling regulations in Oklahoma if you want an example) and it's essentially one of the dominant (if not divisive) religions in the country

Realistically, it won't happen in our lifetimes.  But if we can get women/other races the right to vote, I think it's a goal worth working towards.  At the very least, whatever the hell Republicans are touting as Christianity is doing more harm than good IMO.  Last I checked, healing the sick was part of the Great Commission.  Guess which nation's health care system is a mess?  Yeah.

[Armchair General]

Just now, eclipse said:

Realistically, it won't happen in our lifetimes.  But if we can get women/other races the right to vote, I think it's a goal worth working towards.  At the very least, whatever the hell Republicans are touting as Christianity is doing more harm than good IMO.  Last I checked, healing the sick was part of the Great Commission.  Guess which nation's health care system is a mess?  Yeah.

I thought everyone had the right to vote in the States? And as for the healthcare, I never really looked into it.

[Lewyn]

Religion has no place in politics and greatly harms the country.  Without religion we wouldn't have Trump who many think is a divine instrument of God and other nonsense.  However it isn't just him, it is many other politicians, and policies.  It even effects legal rulings.  Pretty sure most anti science people are religious zealots as well.  They are also the ignorant people that will just ignore social distancing and precautions and trust "God and Jesus".  In essence fucking everyone else over.

Twitter, facebook, etc are not monopolies so I don't think that is a good argument for any type of action against them. 

 

[eclipse]

Just now, Armchair General said:

I thought everyone had the right to vote in the States? And as for the healthcare, I never really looked into it.

It was originally white landowners.  Women and other races had to fight HARD for it.

America's history is interesting, if only to see what rights the people have had to wrest from the government.

Just now, Lewyn said:

Religion has no place in politics and greatly harms the country.  Without religion we wouldn't have Trump who many think is a divine instrument of God and other nonsense.  However it isn't just him, it is many other politicians, and policies.  It even effects legal rulings.  Pretty sure most anti science people are religious zealots as well.  They are also the ignorant people that will just ignore social distancing and precautions and trust "God and Jesus".  In essence fucking everyone else over.

Twitter, facebook, etc are not monopolies so I don't think that is a good argument for any type of action against them.

I believe religion's place in politics is that the government should be equally indifferent to all, so long as said religion doesn't trample on the laws of the land.

[Armchair General]

2 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

 

Twitter, facebook, etc are not monopolies so I don't think that is a good argument for any type of action against them. 

 

Technically, they are in the sense of how mainstream they are

[Lord Raven]

Do you guys think widespread COVID19 denial deserves a platform? If not, then why does racism deserve one?

It's not a matter of opinion, both are national crises. And that's not an opinion. Black people are still getting lynched.

[Armchair General]

2 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Do you guys think widespread COVID19 denial deserves a platform? If not, then why does racism deserve one?

It's not a matter of opinion, both are national crises. And that's not an opinion. Black people are still getting lynched.

How can one ignore a global pandemic that had already killed thousands of people?