Weapon Durability vs Weapon Effects

[Bovinian]

I'm more annoyed that excalibur is pretty BAD for Sorcerers overall. With a cap of 29 speed, they most likely won't get the double against opponents, and almost all units will double them just for holding it.

It'll be pretty OP on Witches though, who can also S rank tomes and have the second highest Speed cap in the game only beaten by Trueblades and Elite Ninjas. Witches just make Sorcerers look terrible in general, they even get the same inherent +10 Crit bonus

[Featherwick]

Weapon Durability is good, it certainly makes a game like Thracia interesting where item shops are extremely uncommon and expensive, but in Awakening it was pointless. You had unlimited weapons available from the world map. At any one point you could buy mostly whatever you needed. Add in the spotpass teams and you could potentially get silver weapons super early and in unlimited quantities. In Thracia you had to capture units to get their weapons, and doing so was extremely risky, making it an interesting dilemma, do I try and capture this guy? He's got a good sword, but I might just end up missing and taking massive amounts of damage. It also makes you think about how to go about every chapter. In Manster you don't know how many chapters it will be till you get back to the rest of your group. So you have to be careful not to break your swords, since then you'll only have two units to fight, one of which is pretty bad.

If the game had stayed in the awakening mindset of shops and such durability would have been pointless, and they probably didn't want to change too much from the last game, so I think the affects are a great idea. It makes each weapon feel unique. Now it might have a few kinks, maybe some debuffs are too strong or some weapons give too much *cough*Takumi's Bow*cough*, but that can be worked out later. As it stands this is a much better solution than just keeping the same system as Awakening.

Maybe if we just pray IS will remake Thracia so we can all remember the good old days.

[nocturnal YL]

I'd have preferred if instead of Excalibur, a more "general" S tome comparable to the other S weapons takes its place. I haven't been that far into the game, but I feel that the A tome is more useful.

[astrophys]

I'm more annoyed that excalibur is pretty BAD for Sorcerers overall. With a cap of 29 speed, they most likely won't get the double against opponents, and almost all units will double them just for holding it.

Take a magic user with a speed boost (Nyx, +MAG Avatar, many +MAG Avatar derived Kanna, several children, etc.) and combine with Swallow Strike….

Let's say +2 SPD (from +MAG, or Nyx)…. 31 SPD…. + 5 double ability from Excalibur… now you double 31 SPD enemies…. +5 double ability from Swallow Strike…. now you double 36 SPD enemies…. that's also ignoring pair-ups if for some reason you choose to go for Guard Stance…. e.g., a Spellcaster gives you +4 MAG, +4 SPD, plus personal bonuses, which I'll ignore…. now you can double 40 SPD enemies.

If you're Corrin as a Sorc for some reason (even though you probably want a sword class for Yato), Yato can give a +2/+4 SPD boost after certain points on Hoshido/Invisible just for being in your inventory…. Now you double 42/44 SPD foes.

Attack enemies equipped with range 1 weapons from 2 range, or attack archers (those who don't have 1 range bows) at 1 range.

[Psyruby]

I can definitely agree with you there. Its best use could probably be for flying units that can't counterattack, but that's a fairly niche situation. Nosferatu not being able to attack twice or inflict critical hits makes it a lot less useful too, and I feel like I'd only really use it after forging it to have a lot more might.

Sorcerer's weren't going to double or critical in reality. The game is so anti crit unless you specifically build around it, and if you are building around criticalling, then you wouldn't use Nosferatu or even a Sorcerer. Nosferatu is really good tho. I'd explain why, but it's easier to say look for a thread in Fates Forum called, "Quick Question about Tomes." As I thoroughly explained my logic.

Take a magic user with a speed boost (Nyx, +MAG Avatar, many +MAG Avatar derived Kanna, several children, etc.) and combine with Swallow Strike….

Let's say +2 SPD (from +MAG, or Nyx)…. 31 SPD…. + 5 double ability from Excalibur… now you double 31 SPD enemies…. +5 double ability from Swallow Strike…. now you double 36 SPD enemies…. that's also ignoring pair-ups if for some reason you choose to go for Guard Stance…. e.g., a Spellcaster gives you +4 MAG, +4 SPD, plus personal bonuses, which I'll ignore…. now you can double 40 SPD enemies.

If you're Corrin as a Sorc for some reason (even though you probably want a sword class for Yato), Yato can give a +2/+4 SPD boost after certain points on Hoshido/Invisible just for being in your inventory…. Now you double 42/44 SPD foes.

Attack enemies equipped with range 1 weapons from 2 range, or attack archers (those who don't have 1 range bows) at 1 range.

1) Swallow Strike would be hard to get on any Sorcerer outside Avatar/Kanna.

2) Avatar/Kanna have better things to do than be the Sorcerer class.

3) Your enemy can pair up too, and most likely if they have semi high speed, they will attempt to pair up with speed giving units.

4) Yes, the main benefit of tomes/spells is to attack in a blind spot, that's why Excalibur isn't completely awful, however it is very very unsynergetic with sorcerer especially compared to the other S rank weapon and class pairs.

[Thane]

I prefer the drawbacks of certain weapons far, far more than the weapon durability. It's one of the best new additions to the series, alongside the attack and guard stances.

It feels like a completely different new layer of strategic thinking and positioning.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Thane

[iZallen]

All about variables. In Awakening, I had my whole team w/ 50+Luk Armsthrift so breaking weapons wasn't an issue for me. In older Fire Emblems, it definetely makes it so I have to worry about busting weapons (actually, it was because weight was a factor more) against certain targets but it wasn't that massive of an issue. But we can look at the current situation like this:

If Money isn't Relevant then Durability isn't Relevant. Use the best weapons with no remorse. (Unless you REALLY do not replace weapons at all.)

If Weapon is Relevant now because Money isn't (They know we would farm this..) then its more strategy than just wielding Brave Weapons all the way.

[The DanMan]

I wasn't fully familiar with the cost of eternal seals so I do apologize. I'm not fully certain where a unit will statistically lie at the regular 20 level cap, but if it's the case where the penalties stay important throughout the duration of the campaign, the new system may be better balanced than I had thought. Thanks for the rebuttal.

The stat caps are lower than Awakening, that's for sure.

For example, Dark Knight: 55 HP, 32 strength, 31 magic, 28 skill, 27 speed, 31 luck, 34 defense, 32 resistance.

Compared to Awakening's 80 Hp, 38 strength, 41 magic, 40 skill and speed, 45 luck, 42 defense, and 38 resistance.

Also, Fates units have lower growth rates than in Awakening.

The reason why I don't quite like the self-debuff system in its current form is because even Silver weapons are only good for certain situations, as three rounds of combat over the same turn means they now have the strength of an iron weapon, and won't get better for another six turns. They replaced durability with this system because certain weapons were "too awesome to use", but now that just makes even more of them more severe (have fun with that S-rank axe, which will halve your offenses until your next turn).

Edited July 22, 2015 by The DanMan

[astrophys]

1) Swallow Strike would be hard to get on any Sorcerer outside Avatar/Kanna.

2) Avatar/Kanna have better things to do than be the Sorcerer class.

3) Your enemy can pair up too, and most likely if they have semi high speed, they will attempt to pair up with speed giving units.

4) Yes, the main benefit of tomes/spells is to attack in a blind spot, that's why Excalibur isn't completely awful, however it is very very unsynergetic with sorcerer especially compared to the other S rank weapon and class pairs.

1. Also Subaki x Nyx in the third route. Nyx could take one level in her husband's class and then get Swallow Strike. She also has +2 speed.

2. Yes, you are probably right.

3. You seem to be assuming PvP… I'm not. I'm assuming PvE. The enemy might have pair-ups, but are they really smart enough for the AI to explicitly pair up to overcome an Excalibur doubling.

4. Agreed in the sense that Excalibur really does have a low might, and even thought it is anti-flyer, the bow also does that… it also has a bunch of crit, and the Sorc does get a crit bonus……

[Shadow Knight]

I prefer weapon durability for it's realistic approach and the added strategic concerns it brings especially where gold is limited. However with the introduction of gold dlc weapon durability is a minor inconvenience at best. The best option for the game imo though would be to keep weapon durability and certain stat debuffs for using higher tier weapons such as steel and silver swords because that is a bit more realistic, also allow a weapon forging option to make a weapon unbreakable for a very large price. But limit the gold you can acquire and eliminate gold dlc, that way you have to balance grinding, forging, etc. with keeping your troops equipped with weapons.

Gold is the key to everything and I'll be the first to admit that I did enjoy exploiting the gold dlc in Awakening. But if gold is limited correctly than even grinding would be limited to an extent if weapon durability is a factor.

Though I'll say that I do like the idea of stat debuffs on higher quality weapons, but I think they need to be more realistic like speed debuffs and prevention of attacking twice. In fact certain weapons should have debuffs based on what they are. For example give axes/clubs a small STR buff but a small SPD debuff or a bonus against armored units, spears a slight DEF buff. For swords give normal swords higher might but a speed , debuff or restriction on double attacks. Longswords are heavy but were designed for penetration and blunt trauma damage so perhaps add a small crit chance buff against armored opponents. For Katanas drop the speed debuff but lower the might and if durability is a thing katanas should have a lower durability than swords but in return should have a crit chance buff. They're good for cutting but tamahagane was rare and Katanas aren't as durable as longswords. Damn beautiful though.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Shadow Knight

[Othin]

The realism talk doesn't make much sense. A good bow isn't going to be useless after you fire it 20 times.

[Ryo]

^ I always find it weird how it keeps saying "X's bow has broken" instead of "X has run out of arrows." :p

[The DanMan]

The realism talk doesn't make much sense. A good bow isn't going to be useless after you fire it 20 times.

^ I always find it weird how it keeps saying "X's bow has broken" instead of "X has run out of arrows." :p

Pretty much that. I've thought of what could work if you could mix and match bows and quivers, but eh...

[Othin]

Pretty much that. I've thought of what could work if you could mix and match bows and quivers, but eh...

Berwick Saga lets you do that. :D

[Shadow Knight]

The realism talk doesn't make much sense. A good bow isn't going to be useless after you fire it 20 times.

I'd make an exception for bow units, they can do some damage but they are very vulnerable to physical units. Ironically flying units are great against bows especially when they have galeforce. Most of the time I don't even use them.

Though another idea I was toying with is instead of uses as a form of durability, perhaps keep unlimited uses while adding in a "shatter chance," for example lower quality weapons have less debuffs but a higher chance of shattering when used, compared to for example silver swords/ steel swords which are debuffed but have a low shatter chance. If a weapon shatters it can't be used anymore and will be dropped.

Just give bows an extremely low shatter chance.

[Othin]

I'd make an exception for bow units, they can do some damage but they are very vulnerable to physical units. Ironically flying units are great against bows especially when they have galeforce. Most of the time I don't even use them.

Though another idea I was toying with is instead of uses as a form of durability, perhaps keep unlimited uses while adding in a "shatter chance," for example lower quality weapons have less debuffs but a higher chance of shattering when used, compared to for example silver swords/ steel swords which are debuffed but have a low shatter chance. If a weapon shatters it can't be used anymore and will be dropped.

Just give bows an extremely low shatter chance.

Berwick Saga also has a system like that, but it's just annoying. Having a powerful weapon randomly break after just a few uses is even more unfun than having to limit to a set number of uses before it breaks.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Othin

[CinderSkye]

Effects, no question. Durability has had almost no place in the series since the addition of the convoy and is simply a legacy feature that does not appreciably add to the strategic gameplay on most difficulty settings. Effects make for a tactical choice on every difficulty setting.

Durability isn't all that realistic either:

- in real life, you can reforge shattered weapons, while that's almost solely the province of an extremely rare staff.

- It's somewhat rare for a weapon to break to the point you could be left entirely without a weapon at all; a sword with damaged edges is still better than taking spears to the gut with no counter attack.

- Durability would more reasonably be chance-based, not use-based (ideally a mixture of both).

- Several weapons in the series are ammunition-based and shouldn't have durability as we think of it.

The only way I would welcome durability back into the series would be as a chance-based thing where it could break during a map, but whenever reasonable in the story, you could reforge several weapons at low cost. However, that would make for very different gameplay and wouldn't work under the Fates paradigm where there's already a lot to consider.

Edited July 22, 2015 by CinderSkye

[Psyruby]

The reason why I don't quite like the self-debuff system in its current form is because even Silver weapons are only good for certain situations, as three rounds of combat over the same turn means they now have the strength of an iron weapon, and won't get better for another six turns. They replaced durability with this system because certain weapons were "too awesome to use", but now that just makes even more of them more severe (have fun with that S-rank axe, which will halve your offenses until your next turn).

Okay, even tho this is out of order, I HAVE to address this first. The half Strength for the next turn is NOT an issue for the S rank weapons. They have such crazy high damage, that they still end up with the highest DPS overtime.

For proof,

40(str)+22(Mt)+5(Weapon Faire)+1(Weapon Rank)-30(Average Defense) = 38(Damage First Turn)

20(str reduced)+22(Mt)+5(WF)+1(WR)-30 = 18(Damage Second Turn)

Average Damage = 28.The iron axe has an average of 24 damage, you could actually read the S rank axe as 12 Mt, no drawback.

Aurgelmir: 12 Mt, 75 Acc, 15 Crit, 0 Avoid 0 CritEv, no effect.

Tell me this isn't the best Axe overall. There are situations where other axes are better, but this axe is best in most situations.

In fact, this brings me to my second point. Silver weapons have use. Silver Weapons are one of the best finishers in the game. You NEED to finish the battle right now? Use a silver weapon. It has low drawback for one swing, accurate, and some of the highest damage in the game for one swing, hell you can even double with it if you are fast enough unlike steel. People are only looking at their downside, and not how to use them strategically.

1. Also Subaki x Nyx in the third route. Nyx could take one level in her husband's class and then get Swallow Strike. She also has +2 speed.

2. Yes, you are probably right.

3. You seem to be assuming PvP… I'm not. I'm assuming PvE. The enemy might have pair-ups, but are they really smart enough for the AI to explicitly pair up to overcome an Excalibur doubling.

4. Agreed in the sense that Excalibur really does have a low might, and even thought it is anti-flyer, the bow also does that… it also has a bunch of crit, and the Sorc does get a crit bonus……

Okay, so a Crit build on a Sorcerer isn't amazing. Like even with Excalibur, your crit chance is like 16%. Respectable, but you aren't going to bank on it. Also, it isn't really the criting or low might that bugs me. It is the speed clause. The speed clause makes lots of sense for Ninjas and even Bowman, but Sorcerers? That's still very unsynergetic. You are using additional resources for something that just worked for the Ninja and Bowman.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Psyruby

[RedMage]

I don't have the game, but I think staves have durability. What's up with that? If they're going to make weapons infinite, why not staves?

[Ryo]

I don't have the game, but I think staves have durability. What's up with that? If they're going to make weapons infinite, why not staves?

Because there are status staves (and some of them are pretty dangerous actually). Some enemies have a skill that allows them to use staves infinitely.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm gravitating towards effects, since while I don't mind it, imo, durability isn't as big a strategic implement as one would think. Sure, it might encourage weapon conservation, but it isn't necessarily for the right reasons (Case in point: "Too Awesome To Use"). That being said, some of the weapons wind up being useless, or close to it, because of their effects (See: The S rank axe).

Edited July 22, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Othin]

Okay, even tho this is out of order, I HAVE to address this first. The half Strength for the next turn is NOT an issue for the S rank weapons. They have such crazy high damage, that they still end up with the highest DPS overtime.

For proof,

40(str)+22(Mt)+5(Weapon Faire)+1(Weapon Rank)-30(Average Defense) = 38(Damage First Turn)

20(str reduced)+22(Mt)+5(WF)+1(WR)-30 = 18(Damage Second Turn)

Average Damage = 28.The iron axe has an average of 24 damage, you could actually read the S rank axe as 12 Mt, no drawback.

Aurgelmir: 12 Mt, 75 Acc, 15 Crit, 0 Avoid 0 CritEv, no effect.

Tell me this isn't the best Axe overall. There are situations where other axes are better, but this axe is best in most situations.

In fact, this brings me to my second point. Silver weapons have use. Silver Weapons are one of the best finishers in the game. You NEED to finish the battle right now? Use a silver weapon. It has low drawback for one swing, accurate, and some of the highest damage in the game for one swing, hell you can even double with it if you are fast enough unlike steel. People are only looking at their downside, and not how to use them strategically.

The S rank weapons do have their uses, but being better than Iron over the course of two rounds of combat isn't great, especially if you need more consistent damage output that you could get with something like Steel. Furthermore, I might be wrong, but comparing over the course of two rounds of combat like that doesn't seem like an entirely fair comparison because if you use the weapon again on the second round, your Strength will still be halved on the third round, so you have to keep accounting for that until a round where you don't use the S rank weapon.

Silver weapons seem much easier to use than half Strength weapons for "need high damage now" purposes.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Othin

[Refa]

The realism talk doesn't make much sense. A good bow isn't going to be useless after you fire it 20 times.

More realistic is different from "accurate simulation of real life". Next you're going to say that people don't actually fight in turns in real life.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Refa

[Psyruby]

The S rank weapons do have their uses, but being better than Iron over the course of two rounds of combat isn't great, especially if you need more consistent damage output that you could get with something like Steel. Furthermore, I might be wrong, but comparing over the course of two rounds of combat like that doesn't seem like an entirely fair comparison because if you use the weapon again on the second round, your Strength will still be halved on the third round, so you have to keep accounting for that until a round where you don't use the S rank weapon.

Silver weapons seem much easier to use than half Strength weapons for "need high damage now" purposes.

I was actually wondering if they halved it next time when already halved. Thank you for stating it. (You do know this from practice right?) I need to go change some statistics on my excel sheet now then. I'm still not going to say they are bad, as this actually makes me ecstatic that S ranks aren't overpowered.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Psyruby

[Othin]

More realistic is different from "accurate simulation of real life". Next you're going to say that people don't actually fight in turns in real life.

I'm not bringing up realism; I'm dismissing bogus claims about it demanding an annoying durability feature.

I was actually wondering if they halved it next time when already halved. Thank you for stating it. (You do know this from practice right?) I need to go change some statistics on my excel sheet now then. I'm still not going to say they are bad, as this actually makes me ecstatic that S ranks aren't overpowered.

I haven't tested it myself, but it feels like a pretty safe bet.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Othin