Sakurai commenting about "extra features"

[Loki Laufeyson]

There's still plenty of hero-worship though, lewdness hardly has to come into it. "Oh Kamui-sama....."

Ehh, to be honest, im not really arsed about that. Different strokes for different folks i suppose. Like, at least when it comes to the fluff. One of Thane's bigger complaints is the hero-worship in the plot being even more than Robin. That concerns me more than skinship lines. But ill likely shrug it off anyway because it sounds like gameplay is just really gr9.

There is only one mild concern i have about like, the amie feature. Its so fluffy and i dont mind it being there. But....if it werent...would...would have my wish for dialogue trees for Kamui been able to happen? Like, im not sure game development works like that, but i cant help but wonder...Its not enough to make me salty, just...i wonder...

[Dark Sage]

People take Sakurai's opinions on game design seriously? The man is incompetent, this is a guy who introduced tripping for no good reason and who routinely goes out of his way to fuck over Melee players and advanced players for more casual fans, even though casual fans never had a problem with Melee.

I think it's interesting that when stuff like SD Gaidens or GBA supports or whatever comes up, there is rarely the "it's optional!!!" defense coming up but when you have stuff like the Avatar being able to molest his troops in his room for no reason, suddenly you get a brigade of people who go "well it's optional so you can't criticize it."

The argument is apparently that if it's optional, it's divorced from the rest of the game and you can ignore it. Guys, none of these elements are truly divorced, they all have an impact on the atmosphere and on other gameplay mechanics. The amie mechanic is linked to the support mechanics, which are linked to the marriage mechanics and child mechanics. The existence of a 2nd generation means that the developers have to force support conversations and pairings with people who have no business of doing so. The existence of both the 2nd gen and marriage create extremely awful moral implications that I'm pretty sure are unintended, like the entire male cast becoming pedophiles, the parents being the worst parents in the world, retarded hyperbolic time chamber BS, and using the kids as child soldiers. All of these silly anime banzai fanservice additions also completely undermine the serious story they're attempting to tell. The most obvious part is that the developers are aware some people will be upset that they can't waifu their siblings, so they do stuff like "I know we grew up as siblings but since this is an S support, I know want to tap dat ass" or "Don't worry, momma wrote a letter saying we're not blood-related so let's fuck ayy lmao"; this completely ruins the BLOODLINE vs LOYALTY conflict they advertised and the fact that they STILL refer to you as their siblings afterwards makes it unnecessarily creepy and unnerving and proof that they really just did not give a shit what they had to ruin in order to appeal to an audience who, let's be honest, have a sizeable number of creepy fucks that I don't want to be associated with.

This is why Sakurai also is a failure as a game designer. He sees stuff as a collection of independent systems that you could just throw together. Truly great games like Silent Hill 2, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, etc. don't do that, they try to integrate every single aspect of the mechanics, atmosphere, and story into their designs. They're aware that you can't just isolate all these aspects together and try to perfect what they have and that's why they're considered some of the greatest, most artistic games of all time.

Btw, the whole "it's optional so just ignore it" is the most dismissive, useless defense ever. Plot holes in a movie? Just ignore it! D&D 3rd edition is extremely unbalanaced? Just use house rules! A long running TV or book series has a conclusion that undermines everything? Ignore it!!!

Edited August 7, 2015 by Dark Sage

[NeptuniasBeard]

Bolded: this is not implict anywhere. It is only stated that Robin gives orders a lot, not that those orders neccessraily happen during combat. Irrespective of that though, if you acknowledge the fact there's a significant difference and one is sort of neccessary whilst the other isn't, what's the point of the comparison? That they both reduce intitatve? Sure, so by all means, get rid of the Avatar. But it's certainly a lot less compelling to argue about letting all characters autopilot all the time when AI in videogames is so consistently terrible.

In Awakening, Robin is explicitly the only one who can size up an enemy so well that they know how the flow of battle will go. Now notice how if you put it on auto, your characters become no better than the enemies AI. This pretty much confirms that Robin is constantly giving the army orders. You can argue that it's not possible, but gameplay mechanics work independent of real world logic. Or are you gonna say how it's totally possible to have one soldier wipe out your enemies without even a scratch?

I dunno bro, reading through your comments, you seem to be making the amie feature into way more than it actually is. I can understand how it being in can affect what you think of the game, but don't turn it into the pedophile that lives next door. It's a silly little feature put in so people can rub their favorite characters and build up affinity points. That is literally it. It has nothing to do with "character agency" and it sure as hell isn't weaved into the narrative. If you don't want to use it, if you you truly feel like it's a humiliating feature, then don't use it. That way, they never have to suffer. You can argue that it's there, and that's all that matters, but why not complain about everything else you can do that's way worse? You can use children at meatshields, you can hook a small girl up with the local middle aged sadists, you can kill your wife and force the child you had together to watch, or better yet, just have said child do it herself, the sky is the limit.

[Folt]

I actually agree with Sakurai. I didn't want Lucina in Smash, and honestly she is pretty pointless as her only difference from Marth makes her both worse and outclassed to a rather high degree (and on any of my roster wishlists for the next game, she's typically the first one I don't include), but on the flipside she can't have taken a long time to make, and it does mean that Smash Bros. gets a female fighter (and a female fighter who's both human and has a rather normal way of fighting even). As a result, I don't mind her in the game. I use her if I must and let her be otherwise. I also loved Dr. Mario's return as a clone character as he brought back some of the things that Mario discarded for other things in Brawl (Tornado being a special move, down aerial being a multi-hit drill kick drill kick) and integrated those into his own moveset while Mario got to tweak his Brawl moveset (which I hoped for since I always thought it had potential). Dark Pit is alright, it lets me use Pit's moveset without actually being Pit (and he also has an electricity move in Electroshock Arm which is even better). Notably, as you can see from this, I didn't like one of the clones, but liked the other two, and that gives me the understanding that while they were bonus content hastily put together, they added appeal to the game. No matter how much I dislike Lucina for being kind of... there... in Smash 4 (I think Dr. Mario and Dark Pit added a little more than she did), there will be people who want to use her.

Fire Emblem Awakening is one of my favorite FEs, and that has to do with the different ways I can play it. I could do a no-grind run, set up some arbitrary rules, then follow those rules and see how different I play from just grinding out my units and curb-stomping everything. I could just grind and beat the story as quick as possible, recruit all the characters, then just get powerful enough to do the DLC maps. I could experiment with pairings, do Casual Mode so that I won't lose units forever, do Classic Mode for the challenge permadeath adds to the game... start some files for the sole purpose of grinding out the support library, and so on and on. I could do a lot of things with Awakening, including playing it like the other Fire Emblems, having permadeath and limiting grinding for my team. The streamlined gameplay I feel work in it's favor since it's easy and simple to keep track of things, and it having a story like it does is fine since it reminds me of Final Fantasy V and how it lampooned several Final Fantasy tropes that was in the games before that.

Fire Emblem Fates is set to once again give me a plethora of options that I could do. I there's three different campaigns with three different endings which to me means I'm essentially getting three games in one (with 9 save files if I have all three which is good since I'm expecting to be replaying one particular campaign a bit). The gameplay is a bit more complex than Awakening, which I feel is fine in this case, since Fates is meant to be a bit more ambitious game than being a celebration (and at times, something of a parody). Not only that, but the revamps of the game mechanics (like no more breakable weapons) and certain things like all classes that are in the game being more-or-less open to both genders (Male Pegs! Female Fighters! Female Berserkers! Male Valkyries!) indicate a desire to do away with some staple traditions.

In terms of things, the skinship, while it creeps me out, is actually kind of hilarious to me now, and I could always just not use it since I can achieve similiar results to what it does elsewhere. (Also, I may or may not use it as basis for crack fics because the potential for some hilarious badly written fan fics on the concept is too good to pass up.) Yes, it can affect how people look at the game, but I've seen stuff I think is worse and have seen games were I had to do things that are against my principles. My Castle on the other hand is great, if still rather optional, as it lets me do stuff outside of battling and I'm a sucker for having things to do outside of the main thing. None of the things I do in My Castle (except for maybe the shops) would really affect the main objective all that much, but it doesn't make the main objective worse, and that's all I ask for.

[NeptuniasBeard]

stuff!

It's been a while since I've seen a salty melee fan. Incompetent? a failure? Why? Because he did things you melee folks didn't like? Sound logic. I remember that the next time I don't like my old lady's cooking. And Smash 4 has taken steps to cater back to the melee crowd only without, you know the horrible character balance. Routinly screwing over Melee fans? Last I checked, Brawl was only one game. But you melee people sure do love your dramatic bitchfits and ad hominem attacks.

[Integrity]

okay what the fuck guys, everything was nice and civil until that

calm the tempers please and thank you

[dondon151]

It's been a while since I've seen a salty melee fan. Incompetent? a failure? Why? Because he did things you melee folks didn't like? Sound logic. I remember that the next time I don't like my old lady's cooking. And Smash 4 has taken steps to cater back to the melee crowd only without, you know the horrible character balance. Routinly screwing over Melee fans? Last I checked, Brawl was only one game. But you melee people sure do love your dramatic bitchfits and ad hominem attacks.

lol every time someone talks about melee positively, they get labeled as a salty melee fan.

look, it's pretty clear that sakurai didn't do brawl right, not only because he didn't care about the competitive aspect, but also because he didn't spend the proper effort in managing the basic game mechanics. some of this may have had to do with the fact that he was purposely introducing noncompetitive mechanics to the game, others may have had to do with the fact that he simply didn't care about making the game competitively viable, which could explain why stuff like grab release infinites and 0-death chaingrabs are in the game or why MK is sooo much better than everyone else.

one would expect that melee, a game which featured chaingrabs and struggled with character balance, would at least have those aspects improved on in its successor.

more on-topic: anyone who actually agrees with sakurai - that extraneous features cannot be considered as demerits to game quality - forfeits all right to game criticism in general. most features within games, when it comes down to it, are optional. the logical conclusion of this mode of thought is that all features are either neutral or good, never bad.

Edited August 7, 2015 by dondon151

[ivanhellsing]

EDIT: nvm you can't please anyone these days lmao

Edited August 7, 2015 by ivanhellsing

[dondon151]

dark sage is the definition of very salty melee fan wow

he mentioned melee in exactly one sentence of a four-paragraph post.

[Integrity]

EDIT: nvm you can't please anyone these days lmao

what did i just say

stop talking about super smash bros, go make another thread if y'all want to rehash arguments about brawl

EDIT: so it's clear, this wasn't the sentiment of the previous post, but it is the sentiment of this one

EDIT2: oh hi ninja i should put quotes in so it's clear who i was posting at but now it looks weird cuz he edited

Edited August 7, 2015 by Integrity

[dondon151]

i think that super smash bros is an important point to consider because the column is about super smash bros

[Integrity]

oh is it? fuck, i didn't read it

carry on the smash talk then i guess but keep the salty shit out

[The DanMan]

*Edit* Wait a second... this got posted? Ignore this.

Edited August 7, 2015 by The DanMan

[SageOfAnys]

Uh guys... can we not insult each other for our opinions whether we agree with them or not? Because if this continues this thread is going to be shut down or it's just going to turn into a flame war.

more on-topic: anyone who actually agrees with sakurai - that extraneous features cannot be considered as demerits to game quality - forfeits all right to game criticism in general. most features within games, when it comes down to it, are optional. the logical conclusion of this mode of thought is that all features are either neutral or good, never bad.

What? I don't see how saying an optional feature that doesn't affect story and only does something gameplay wise that can be achieved through other means. Because if you say that we can't complain about anything about a game is just wrong. Gameplay isn't optional. Story isn't optional. A game being functional upon release isn't optional. And optional features CAN be bad if they're inherently bad and greatly affect other aspects of the game, but amie doesn't have that much impact gameplay wise. The reason people are saying that amie can be ignored because it really holds no significance over other aspects of the game and doesn't provide something that couldn't be done in a different, non-less efficient way.

[Loki Laufeyson]

oh is it? fuck, i didn't read it

carry on the smash talk then i guess but keep the salty shit out

Ehh not entirely. The article is about optional game content in general, but there is a heavy focus on Smash because Sakurai.

[dondon151]

Gameplay isn't optional. Story isn't optional.

gameplay is largely optional (what are the bare minima that you need to get through the game?) and story is entirely optional. don't like them? ignore them. you can't demerit a game's story for being bad because you can just ignore the story, and some people might like it even though it's bad (read: twilight).

Edited August 7, 2015 by dondon151

[SapphireFalconWing]

^Yeah because Sakurai understands what IS is going through putting in optional things for those who want it but still gets insulted even though it doesn't effect the game at all.

[The DanMan]

I dunno bro, reading through your comments, you seem to be making the amie feature into way more than it actually is. I can understand how it being in can affect what you think of the game, but don't turn it into the pedophile that lives next door. It's a silly little feature put in so people can rub their favorite characters and build up affinity points. That is literally it. It has nothing to do with "character agency" and it sure as hell isn't weaved into the narrative. If you don't want to use it, if you you truly feel like it's a humiliating feature, then don't use it. That way, they never have to suffer. You can argue that it's there, and that's all that matters, but why not complain about everything else you can do that's way worse? You can use children at meatshields, you can hook a small girl up with the local middle aged sadists, you can kill your wife and force the child you had together to watch, or better yet, just have said child do it herself, the sky is the limit.

I get what he's saying; the amie feature isn't just something that exists at a surface level. It's the biggest and most obvious representation of pandering and fanservice that has become all to prevalent more recently in Fire Emblem and Japanese media in general. Is that too hard to understand?

Though when does killing your wife come into this?

gameplay is largely optional (what are the bare minima that you need to get through the game?) and story is entirely optional. don't like them? ignore them. you can't demerit a game's story for being bad because you can just ignore the story, and some people might like it even though it's bad (read: twilight).

"Don't like it? Ignore it."

That is a terrible response. Just because something's "optional" doesn't mean it won't bring the complete package down as a whole. You can demerit a game's story for being bad because it's there, and it's bad. The "it's optional" argument has been deconstructed, countered, and beaten to death.

EDIT:

Never say he "pretty much said" anything, ever. Fanboys will warp anything into the worst thing. Need I remind you of when the internet took "you can't just increase the roster and call it a day" and turned it into "smash 4 will have less characters than brawl!" If he didn't say it, then don't put shit in his mouth.

I didn't even know that ended up posted; thought I deleted it and typed up this post in its place. Just ignore it, okay?

Edited August 7, 2015 by The DanMan

[Thor Odinson]

For the record I'm only agreeing with Sakurai on the bit about extra content not taking up dev time from other things, because I think it's pretty obvious from the rest of my posts that I have a dev job (granted, it's not game dev, but I have also done mobile game dev on the artist side of things) and know a bit more about how the process works than most people here on the forums

It does not mean you can't find said content bad anyway for entirely other reasons that doesn't involve "man the devs spent time making this when they could've been doing something else" no, they wanted this, it's their vision, you don't have to like their vision but that's what they wanted to make. Unless it's one of those games that are clearly being rushed because they're on some tight-ass schedule or something, which considering the timeframe between awakening and fates, don't seem to be, fates do not seem to be in the category of rushed product.

Now, since devs are people and people make inperfect decisions, some parts of their vision may not be necessarily good, and that's okay to criticise. Just don't use the "waaah this dev time could be used for something else" argument because it really doesn't hold water outside of games having tight/rushed time schedules. I'm not going to yell at people criticising shit they don't like based on, well, they just dont' like it. Just please have an actual idea of how the developer process actually goes.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[NeptuniasBeard]

Umm, SSB4 still isn't anywhere near as good competitively as Melee, due to their being no universal techniques and a much more defensive focus; those are the two biggest mechanical complaints from Brawl, and they're present and accounted for in SSB4.

Do I think Dark Sage could have been less confrontational about it? Yes, but the truth is Sakurai hates the competitive community. He pretty much said in one interview that "this is intentionally an inferior experience; now eff of and play a fighting game, if that's what you want".

I ask you this: does introducing a mechanic (tripping) intentionally to spite part of your consumer base strike you as a smart, professional idea that shows signs of competence?

And really, in paragraphs two and three he makes valid points.

Never say he "pretty much said" anything, ever. Fanboys will warp anything into the worst thing. Need I remind you of when the internet took "you can't just increase the roster and call it a day" and turned it into "smash 4 will have less characters than brawl!" If he didn't say it, then don't put shit in his mouth.

And Sakurai admitted that tripping was a bad idea, which is why it's gone now. He made a mistake, he didn't break the law.

In paragraph 2, sure, his points are valid, the amie and supports are at odds with the story, but they still don't affect the story, so what does it matter? All of it is still fluff. Resident evil, silent hill, and others have silly little costumes to unlock that are still seperate from the story. Paragraph 3 is just more Sakurai bashing. Sakurai puts a shitload into his games, he goes above and beyond 95% of other devs in making games rich with content and longevity, to call him a failure just because he messed with your precious melee is asinine.

lol every time someone talks about melee positively, they get labeled as a salty melee fan.

more on-topic: anyone who actually agrees with sakurai - that extraneous features cannot be considered as demerits to game quality - forfeits all right to game criticism in general. most features within games, when it comes down to it, are optional. the logical conclusion of this mode of thought is that all features are either neutral or good, never bad.

He didn't talk about melee positively, he used it as an excuse to attack Sakurai's character with bullshit accusations.

And on topic, it's on a case by case basis. Something like amie can be safetly ignored, as it does nothing you can't do in other ways. Something like the pair up feature can't be disregarded as optional because it directly effects the balance of the game. If the game is built to where it is too easy if you pair up, but nearly impossible if you don't, that's a problem.

Not all features are created equal, is what I'm trying to say. I don't enjoy Smash Run, but it doesn't sour me on the game one bit, and I don't miss out on much. But if the online was still a laggy mess, I'd be pissed.

[dondon151]

It does not mean you can't find said content bad anyway for entirely other reasons that doesn't involve "man the devs spent time making this when they could've been doing something else" no, they wanted this, it's their vision, you don't have to like their vision but that's what they wanted to make.

they could've had a different vision

and then spent dev resources on that different vision

He didn't talk about melee positively, he used it as an excuse to attack Sakurai's character with bullshit accusations.

sakurai has spoken publicly about his rationale for including tripping as a mechanic, and dark sage was characterizing sakurai based on those comments. they're not bullshit accusations.

And on topic, it's on a case by case basis. Something like amie can be safetly ignored, as it does nothing you can't do in other ways. Something like the pair up feature can't be disregarded as optional because it directly effects the balance of the game.

false. pair up is optional; you can do hard mode just fine without it. you can't do lunatic mode, but lunatic mode is optional.

Edited August 7, 2015 by dondon151

[Thor Odinson]

they could've had a different vision

Well yeah but they didn't, so you can tell them their vision is shit but really if their vision is set they're not gonna spent time making things that they didn't really see to make; You can't really make things if it didn't cross your mind, after all

I mean best bet is to just tell them what people liked and didn't like about their product but we're on an english unofficial forum I'm not sure devs ever read this

oh well

[SapphireFalconWing]

they could've had a different vision

sakurai has spoken publicly about his rationale for including tripping as a mechanic, and dark sage was characterizing sakurai based on those comments. they're not bullshit accusations.

false. pair up is optional; you can do hard mode just fine without it. you can't do lunatic mode, but lunatic mode is optional.

maybe they did but came to a decision that fans may like the "optional features" that barely took away from the main game. Edited August 7, 2015 by SapphireFalconWing

[NeptuniasBeard]

I get what he's saying; the amie feature isn't just something that exists at a surface level. It's the biggest and most obvious representation of pandering and fanservice that has become all to prevalent more recently in Fire Emblem and Japanese media in general. Is that too hard to understand?

Though when does killing your wife come into this?

I adressed that in my comment, the part where I said "I can understand how it being in can affect your view of it", was acknowledging, that yes, it is a weird feature that can make you think less of the game and the dev. I'm saying that he shouldn't make a bigger deal of it than it is because it is still completely avoidable.

Oh, you know, spotpass battles? Yeah, totally what a meant!

[dondon151]

Well yeah but they didn't, so you can tell them their vision is shit but really if their vision is set they're not gonna spent time making things that they didn't really see to make; You can't really make things if it didn't cross your mind, after all

yeah so i suppose my point is that when some users make the contention of "dev resources could've been better spent elsewhere," they're aware of the fact that development is divided into separate teams, and so what they really mean is that the team charged with developing my castle could've been developing a totally different thing.

and some users aren't aware of this, but whatever

Edited August 7, 2015 by dondon151