Sakurai commenting about "extra features"

[Mrs Chrom]

The problem is you have to divert time and resources away from other things to work on these optional features. If they didn't put so much effort into making facerubbin' models I'm sure the writing and map design wouldn't be as sloppy.

One of the common responses to that, which I don't know the legitimacy of, is that these optional extras usually come from the fact that the amount of workload for the various different departments (e.g art vs coding) doesn't always sync very well. These big teams often have some people ending up sitting around waiting for others to catch up. So when that happens, they just tell them to come up with some weird add-ons.

[Irysa]

We're not in favor of this feature. At least, I'd assume a majority of us on this forum aren't. However, I'm not going to let that feature sit there and make me think any less of characters or the game. I still view them as characters in a video game that I will enjoy watching grow and develop and supporting and what have you. This feature specifically is something I will use once, giggle at it, and leave for good. I'm sure that's how most of us on this forum are at this point with it. However, I also realize that there are people that will enjoy this feature. They will get more enjoyment out of the game being able to use this feature. Those people exist. I'm not going to let an optional feature in this game that other people will enjoy get in the way of enjoying the game as a whole. You can take this as us (as I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way regarding this feature) moving on from the fact that it's implemented in the game. Most of us are going to play the game as it is regardless of the feature existing, and we're going to get the same amount of enjoyment as we would if it didn't exist because we simply won't use it. We'll debate the issue on a forum, or we'll find ways to complain to IS, but this feature is not going to ruin the game for me or other people that will enjoy the game regardless of this feature existing.

If I personally don't make the same connection that you're making for face touching and the game as a whole, then I simply have no reason to feel the same way that you do. I don't think that character development or my personal connection to characters is ruined, and I absolutely do not view the characters as sexualized objects due to a feature that I can simply decide not to use. If you do, that's fine, but I don't. It's not me not caring about the fact that face touching is gross and weird, it's simply me not feeling the same way that you do with this. I'm sure this is the case for multiple people you've talked to. If we felt this strongly about this specifically, then sure, we'd probably not buy the game and would be in the same boat that you are, but we're not. We're going to buy the game and play through it, and we're going to have our criticism and our praise for the game, just like Awakening and other videogames we play. We'll complain on a forum or to IS, but that's honestly it. Assuming that we simply don't care because we're choosing to accept that the feature is in the game and play it anyways is simply incorrect if that's what you're doing, but honestly I don't know what you're trying to do with this.

@ Bolded

Passive acceptance and ridiculing other people for caring about it would imply otherwise...

Is your opinion that this is overall a positive force upon the game or not? If you enter the zone of "don't really care" then you enable the status quo, and for this, the status quo is it's existance. The only arguments anyone has put forward for this being a positive are "it will probably increase sales" and "some people will enjoy it". I can't argue with sales, those are raw, hard, and cold, however much I dislike them, and it's pretty obvious at this point that I don't think sales/money are everything (that's a different argument for a different day), but I'm not an investor. I have however, asked whether the latter argument can be reasonably justified when it objectively detracts from the overarching narrative and tone of the game. To say "yes" to that means you ultimately are not in favor of the game having better cohesiveness. There are various reasons for that, but they generally burn down to;

"Narrative cohesion isn't important"

"Narrative cohesion isn't within the goals of the work"

The latter is a very tempting option to take (and in fact, I am inclined towards it myself) but within the context of this franchise, or even just within the context of the emphasis and hype surrounding this game, it simply doesn't add up. Why go to the effort of trying to improve the story by getting someone supposedly more qualified to work on it? Why play up the importance of choice to the extent of separating the game into two distinct routes? Why try to make an appeal to strong human thematic elements in pre release material? Sales for the Sales God can be invoked again here I suppose, but I am more inclined to believe the following applies to the proponents here;

"Narrative cohesion only matters at a superficial level. In depth analysis or critique is uneccessary or undesirable, entertainment should be entertainment and no more."

This is technically just a development of the first option I listed (in that it is not important), but it's separate enough from simply "not caring", which is extreme, to qualify it's distinction. It's the equivilant of the "turn your brain off" argument, because at a surface level, things are simple and fun enough to simply be enjoyed. However because they come from the same root, they have the same basic reasoning at heart; it's not (really) important. And that's the crux of the issue here.

Note that this not the same thing as viewing it as negative and accepting it. The argument presented relies on either "positive force" or "irrelevant factor". If you recognise it as a "negative factor" and accept it because life is about compromises, then we don't really have anything to argue; I just haven't gotten to that point yet (maybe I won't even make it, who knows). Self awareness is key, and a lot of you appear to be arguing it's irrelevance or positiveness, which is what I am opposed to. It's debatable that a begrudged acceptance and apathy have the same final outcome, a sale is a sale, but there are significant differences that don't neccessarily have a material presence, but I'd rather not drag this post into a philosophical argument about the nature of will, so I'll end it here.

Instead I'll just demonstrate how these arguments work with Neptunia's post.

It doesn't add anything really, but why does it have to? Some things are thrown in for the audiences enjoyment. It doesn't affect the narrative unless you want it to. That's like saying the Hubba tester confirms that every character is bisexual. A ludicrous claim, to say the least Like the Dead Rising games, you can dress up the main character in whatever silly gear you want, it does not add to the game, it's there for the player to enjoy themself. The overall story would be just a ridiculous without it. The characters don't feel shame or weakened because Frank is walking around in a tutu. Just like these characters aren't affected by someone poking thier face. It certainly goes against their character, but their actual character is not affected.

Dead Rising clearly has no intent of maintaining narrative cohesion and is parodical in it's nature of Zombie flicks. Because it is not within it's goals, it is not objectionable. Saying "it doesn't affect it unless you want it to" is not a catch-all argument with regard to such things.

"Enjoyment" has to be qualified within context, as appropriate. Because of the previous reasoning, one can maintain a belief that narrative cohesion is positive without having it detract from their opinion of Dead Rising.

And for the millionth time. I'm not pretending that it doesn't exist, i'm acknowledging that it's existence isn't going to stop me from getting the game. I could criticize this, and the incest, and the lolicon all night long, and sometimes I do, but at the end of the day, I'm still going to buy the game. If you really hate it that much, then don't buy the game, send IS a message that this shit ain't gonna fly with you. But you're not going to do that, you're going to be right there on release day (or week, if something comes up for you) to give them your money.

What? I've said repeatedly I'm not buying the game, even in this thread. I've only vaguely entertained the possibility of perhaps maybe like, 4 or 5 years down the line buying a used copy with which to write an in depth blogpost or something like that about it, but by the time it's been that long, I'll probably not be bothered enough to do so.

Again, I'm not saying "suck it up" or that you buying the game will betray your beliefs, I'm simply saying that, if you're gonna buy the game anyway, then you are going to have to do something more productive to get your displeasure voiced to IS. Write a news article, get that shit trending, gather up voices that are similar to yours and become a force that they cannot ignore, because at this point, you are just spinning your wheels here. Everyone on this forum is more or less set in their choices, whether that's agreeing with you or disagreeing.

I actually have, but I won't associate my internet ID with my real name on such things, and have convinced a few friends not to buy the game. WRT to this forum and posts here, the fact of the matter is that most of you don't care, and I'm already aware of this, which is why I'm not here to convince anyone. Like I said before, threads like these are more like exercises to vent frustrations and clear my own thoughts.

I still think you should all care more but Have-a-Little, Want Mores are notoriously hard to convert from Do-Nothing's, and as far as I'm concerned, you're either predispositioned to care a lot about games or you aren't, no matter how much shit you read on the internet.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Irysa

[eclipse]

I missed it the first time.

That's ENOUGH about a "rape simulator" - there's better ways of framing that logic, and the last time a certain someone made a rape analogy in this kind of context, it ended badly.

This topic is also on its way of ending, badly, because at this point it's becoming less of a discussion about the article, and more about that one face-rubbing feature that has been discussed to death.

My take on the article: The world doesn't revolve around me, and these games aren't made solely for me. If something optional becomes so obnoxious that the game becomes unplayable, I bid the game adieu and move on with life.

EDIT:

I actually have, but I won't associate my internet ID with my real name on such things. WRT to this forum and posts here, the fact of the matter is that most of you don't care, and I'm already aware of this, which is why I'm not here to convince anyone. Like I said before, threads like these are more like exercises to vent frustrations and clear my own thoughts.

No, they don't. If you want to vent your frustrations, get a blog.

Edited August 9, 2015 by eclipse

[Azz]

I was going to post a long rant about stuff but eclipse pretty much summed up my thoughts.

[Irysa]

No, they don't. If you want to vent your frustrations, get a blog.

I have one, but people don't read it. Communications are an important part of such a discussion, since I'm not capable of having an entire argument or providing counterpoints exhaustively to myself (or at least, I don't believe I'm fully capable of it, Devil's Advocating only goes so far if you don't believe in a premise) so forum discourse is helpful. The exchange of ideas furthers one's own and all that.

By all means, don't like the feature, criticize it, no one, not even Sakurai is saying you can't.

But that's exactly what Sakurai is saying. He's using an argument of "just ignore it, it's optional!" to try to prove that there is not a logically sound position from which to criticise optional features. I think it's been demonstrated that his axiom is false, which is why the discussion has become more focused.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Irysa

[Soapbar]

This topic is also on its way of ending, badly, because at this point it's becoming less of a discussion about the article, and more about that one face-rubbing feature that has been discussed to death.

Well Sakurai's main points were targeted at people who want to get rid of FE Amie, so it seems natural that people would talk about it here

[arvilino]

Well, I don't think it was a perfect tl;dr, but I don't think it was going against what I was saying or anything...

As I said, this isn't like the "ignoring that my business client hates cheese" kind of optional, it's the "ignoring that my business client hates black people" kind of optional. The business side might not be affected to a great degree (in this case the gameplay), but the client and your perception of them (in this case the game in its entirety) is. Sure, you can do your business with them perfectly fine if you want while ignoring their other traits, but those traits do not just exist in a vacuum, and you can decide for yourself if you really want to do business with someone like that.

tl;dr You can't just handwave optional features out of existence by ignoring them. Just because you can just ignore that something exists and carry on with your life just as well, doesn't mean that that something isn't open to criticism at all.

In your post it's that this optional mechanic can't be ignored whereas the GameFAQ post is an argument that would be suggested the mechanic isn't optional at all and that the support system revolves around the mechanic.

The mechanic isn't necessarily wrong and even if there's some issues it's certainly not on the level of someone being a racist. It's rubbing a characters face and them saying line, some may not like too see the characters that way but that's all it is. I'm not ignoring it by not agreeing its some heinous act by IS that ruins the rest of the game by existing when I've played through both main campaigns fine.

I'm less handwaving it then trying to highlight the mundanity and general unimportance of the mechanic to contrast against those taking it incredibly personally and trying to broadcast that feeling as how the whole game should be seen and demonising a set of players to do so.

One of the common responses to that, which I don't know the legitimacy of, is that these optional extras usually come from the fact that the amount of workload for the various different departments (e.g art vs coding) doesn't always sync very well. These big teams often have some people ending up sitting around waiting for others to catch up. So when that happens, they just tell them to come up with some weird add-ons.

I think in this case it's not really much of a strong point when you take into account the number of changes and adjustments to the gameplay. A lot of Fire Emblem games that haven't "wasted" dev time on these sort of mechanics have had far less adjustments to the game mechanics.

There's also the case the CG animation and models used in Amie and the cutscenes were outsourced to an animation studio so it's likely Intelligent Systems themselves didn't pour much dev time into it.

Edited August 9, 2015 by arvilino

[eclipse]

I have one, but people don't read it. Communications are an important part of such a discussion, since I'm not capable of having an entire argument or providing counterpoints exhaustively to myself (or at least, I don't believe I'm fully capable of it, Devil's Advocating only goes so far if you don't believe in a premise) so forum discourse is helpful. The exchange of ideas furthers one's own and all that.

Make a point - fine.

Derail a topic because of said point - not fine.

If you have time to post on a message board, you have time to find ways to make your blog more visible. I suggest doing the latter, because you won't be at the mercy of a bunch of forum rules.

Well Sakurai's main points were targeted at people who want to get rid of FE Amie, so it seems natural that people would talk about it here

The point of the article is about the mentality regarding optional features, with Amie being one of the examples (the other being Smash).

[Irysa]

Make a point - fine.

Derail a topic because of said point - not fine.

I hardly see how it's derailing the thread when the topic of discussion is the article claiming "features such as facerubbing are optional, have no interactions with the rest of the game, and are therefore ignorable", and most of the discussion has been a response to that claim by trying to present adequate basis for as to why this is not a sustainable argument, and have responded primarily to the examples he's given in Smash and facerubbing and how they aren't equatable.

To respond to that argument, one has to demonstrate why the analogies don't hold, and in various cases, viewpoints need to be investigated and more thoroughly tested to determine which angle is what. Apathy is not the same as resignation.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Irysa

[Loki Laufeyson]

Note, I said way earlier in this topic that I think the mechanics as is will hurt sales in the west. (speculation)

I really dont think that this is a likely outcome. I do not think people (and by people, i mean Silent Majority) are going to be arsed one way or the other about the Amie feature. The only thing that might wound sales in the west, is how the game is marketed between Bloodlines and Loyalties, only to find out you can S-rank those characters. And oddly enough, that is a slightly separate issue from the Amie feature. I actually dont think it will harm sales that much overall though.

It is speclation and a dubious one at that. I have been checking the Japanese charts and the game in a month sold over 500k separate copies(retail Hoshido, + Nohr + Special edition + Digital edition, not including DLC) making it the 2nd highest selling in Japan and is still selling ~10 thousand each week(which suggests Word of Mouth is actually quite good) where the games usually dropped into oblivion after the first couple weeks. Awakening took 3 years to sell 480k. I mention it time and time again but appeal like that does not come from Otaku, Otaku games routinely sell less than the worst selling Fire Emblem games and this entry in Japan alone is positioned to sell more than a number of entries Fire Emblem have worldwide and already has.

One thing I noticed is how close to release they revealed the My Castle mechanic and the focus they gave it in Magazines with that dedicated video and inclusion in a JP Nintendo Direct. This generation the best selling series in Japan isn't Pokemon, Animal Crossing is actually edging it out and the spn-off Happy Home designer sold collosally well. Given how they presented the video Jackob and Felicia may be analogous to Isabelle It's likely they were going for the giant Animal Crossing fanbase and realise some of the base menus could be expanded into a custom town and supports expanded in a way.

A side effect is that yeah it'd simulataneously appeal to an otaku, but given the numbers of the game I think Nintendo and IS efforts are a result of a net was cast wide rather than narrow when they had the My mechanics in-mind. They knew My Castle would be a net increase the appeal, so they were free to experiment with the mechanics within it even if it doesn't please certain players. It's better they have amie in to gauge the appeal and get feedback so they can see what parts of My Castle are well liked, what aren't and why, what could be improved.

A few petty players acting like the sky is falling because of one of the mehanics, the only My Castle feature you obtain the same rewards elsewhere isn't to their liking means very little. If IS thought every player would like it or that Amie and rubbing the face of characters was what the game is all about it'd give rewards you couldn't get elsewhere or be mandatory for Corrin's support, they could also be aware people think it's the worst thing ever but if game devs chose not to include any feature because someone might hate it a series would stagnate and it'd be impossible to get many new players to try it unless the base game is monsterously popular.

*Claps* Indeed. The heavy focus on casting a wide net was obvious to me from the moment i saw the My Castle Direct. Maybe its because im within the demographic who plays stuff like Animal Crossing and Tomodachi Life. But i was like "hey, they are making some features in this FE to cater to me. Nice." The idea of laying out an area to goof off in, and get cool stuff is right up my alley. Seeing how well ACNL is selling, even 2 years later, its only natural that they want to keep that particular demographic. Like, shit son. Amie is actually not likely implemented for Otaku. I see that argument a lot and i so strongly disagree with it. Mostly because Pokemon had this kind of feature, but also because of the otome element. (a somewhat-untapped demographic in female players, ahem.) So its really trying to grab a demographic quite outside that of just mouth breathing Otaku. The children element is there because it was a big deal with Awakening and drew in a lot of new fans.

In the case of amie it's not just optional as in "you don't have to do it but you'll miss(insert item,character, support convo)", you actually can 100% the game and access every character, item, weapon, support rank, bonuses and chapter without it. How is the game or support system specifically designed around the player using amie?

You know what? You can actually remove My Room from My Castle. I highly doubt theres any log of Amie voices that you can unlock in the game, so its really not at all necessary to use. So yeah you are correct. I think the only issue with actually removing My Room from My Castle yourself, is not being able to use the goofy accessories on your guys. But im not sure that has much merit on gameplay other than cosmetic anyway.

We're not in favor of this feature. At least, I'd assume a majority of us on this forum aren't. However, I'm not going to let that feature sit there and make me think any less of characters or the game. I still view them as characters in a video game that I will enjoy watching grow and develop and supporting and what have you. This feature specifically is something I will use once, giggle at it, and leave for good. I'm sure that's how most of us on this forum are at this point with it.

Try not to be so sweeping, because the actual majority of the forum seems to not give a snot one way or the other, according to the poll asking about it. A good chunk may use it for the shiggles.

My take on the article: The world doesn't revolve around me, and these games aren't made solely for me. If something optional becomes so obnoxious that the game becomes unplayable, I bid the game adieu and move on with life.

If only other people in the world had this more healthy outlook on it, ja?

[Shrouded In Myth]

It is speclation and a dubious one at that. I have been checking the Japanese charts and the game in a month sold over 500k separate copies(retail Hoshido, + Nohr + Special edition + Digital edition, not including DLC) making it the 2nd highest selling in Japan and is still selling ~10 thousand each week(which suggests Word of Mouth is actually quite good) where the games usually dropped into oblivion after the first couple weeks. Awakening took 3 years to sell 480k. I mention it time and time again but appeal like that does not come from Otaku, Otaku games routinely sell less than the worst selling Fire Emblem games and this entry in Japan alone is positioned to sell more than a number of entries Fire Emblem have worldwide and already has.

One thing I noticed is how close to release they revealed the My Castle mechanic and the focus they gave it in Magazines with that dedicated video and inclusion in a JP Nintendo Direct. This generation the best selling series in Japan isn't Pokemon, Animal Crossing is actually edging it out and the spn-off Happy Home designer sold collosally well. Given how they presented the video Jackob and Felicia may be analogous to Isabelle It's likely they were going for the giant Animal Crossing fanbase and realise some of the base menus could be expanded into a custom town and supports expanded in a way.

A side effect is that yeah it'd simulataneously appeal to an otaku, but given the numbers of the game I think Nintendo and IS efforts are a result of a net was cast wide rather than narrow when they had the My mechanics in-mind. They knew My Castle would be a net increase the appeal, so they were free to experiment with the mechanics within it even if it doesn't please certain players. It's better they have amie in to gauge the appeal and get feedback so they can see what parts of My Castle are well liked, what aren't and why, what could be improved.

A few petty players acting like the sky is falling because of one of the mehanics, the only My Castle feature you obtain the same rewards elsewhere isn't to their liking means very little. If IS thought every player would like it or that Amie and rubbing the face of characters was what the game is all about it'd give rewards you couldn't get elsewhere or be mandatory for Corrin's support, they could also be aware people think it's the worst thing ever but if game devs chose not to include any feature because someone might hate it a series would stagnate and it'd be impossible to get many new players to try it unless the base game is monsterously popular.

That is interesting that the top-selling 3DS games have major mainstream appeal in Japan. My Castle been added for mainstream appeal, it's just skinship that been added for the Otakus, it seems like.

Hopefully Nintendo and Intelligent Systems will interpret the feedback in a way that shows them pandering is not necessary.

As for My Castle in general, I'm not a fan of its implementation since it seems it's just there to pass time.

But as long as it's high quality and it's not to the detriment of the base game, I'm okay with it sharing cartridge space with Fire Emblem.

It's skinship that I will just not accept, because I think degrading, fetishized features like it are damaging to society, not to mention the video game industry itself.

[Deviddo]

Jesus people are all over the place with their opinions, and some of the things people are saying such as "You could've diverted attention to other features" Sakurai even TALKED about, saying it wouldn't change much.

Extra features are there for those who want them, if you don't want them, don't use them, simple. Goodness but the FE fanbase is absolutely ridiculous now-a-days.

[eclipse]

I hardly see how it's derailing the thread when the topic of discussion is the article claiming "features such as facerubbing are optional, have no interactions with the rest of the game, and are therefore ignorable", and most of the discussion has been a response to that claim by trying to present adequate basis for as to why this is not a sustainable argument, and have responded primarily to the examples he's given in Smash and facerubbing and how they aren't equatable.

To respond to that argument, one has to demonstrate why the analogies don't hold, and in various cases, viewpoints need to be investigated and more thoroughly tested to determine which angle is what. Apathy is not the same as resignation.

First paragraph - that's related to the article.

Second paragraph - If you really want to do this, you can argue to your heart's content in PM (up to five people can participate in one), because that IS derailing.

That goes for the rest of you, too.

[The DanMan]

First of all: I feel at last partially responsible for the results of this thread, what with me being quick to state my belief that it will be cut from the international release and my (at the time uneducated) claim that the resources could have been re-purposed for something else.

Now, here's how I see it; both sides have their opinions, and neither are succeeding with convincing the other. It's the same arguments that have been used by both sides several times with the exact same results. This will probably come off as very hollow, but could we just chill? At the end of the day, no matter how much impact on us the Fire Emblem series has had, it's just a game; a work of fiction meant for enjoyment (note, I'm not saying this to refute or back one side of the argument or the other). This isn't about big, real-world issues with major ramifications; it's not a discussion of how you think your country should be run, and it's nothing as intimate as personal relationship being broken off; it's a videogame.

Any topic that's related to FEamie eventually just spirals out and becomes this; the same arguments with the same results, with some escalation thrown in to try and prove points. Yes, I'm repeating myself, but it's aggravating (and something of a turnoff of this community) when the same arguments and accusations are thrown around many times with the identical results each time; it's almost futile for both sides to try and argue over this.

Just my observations of it all.

Edited August 10, 2015 by The DanMan

[Loki Laufeyson]

Tbf, im really not out to convince anyone of anything other than "theres a not-gross demographic for My Castle." I think what ends up happening in these discussions, is that a knot of users just cannot accept that there are people out there who will not agree with them, but will do so civilly. And yeah, i see some frustration from users that one side isnt resorting to hair-pulling. (for...some reason.)

I think the take-away from the OP's article and the discussion, is quite frankly this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI

arvilino sums it up pretty great with:

I'm less handwaving it then trying to highlight the mundanity and general unimportance of the mechanic to contrast against those taking it incredibly personally and trying to broadcast that feeling as how the whole game should be seen and demonising a set of players to do so.

[Scrublord]

In your post it's that this optional mechanic can't be ignored whereas the GameFAQ post is an argument that would be suggested the mechanic isn't optional at all and that the support system revolves around the mechanic.

The mechanic isn't necessarily wrong and even if there's some issues it's certainly not on the level of someone being a racist. It's rubbing a characters face and them saying line, some may not like too see the characters that way but that's all it is. I'm not ignoring it by not agreeing its some heinous act by IS that ruins the rest of the game by existing when I've played through both main campaigns fine.

I'm less handwaving it then trying to highlight the mundanity and general unimportance of the mechanic to contrast against those taking it incredibly personally and trying to broadcast that feeling as how the whole game should be seen and demonising a set of players to do so.

Sorry, you've lost me at the GameFAQs part. I don't think I've ever mentioned any GameFAQs post, nor have I implied that the support system revolves around FE Amie, because I know that it doesn't, and I also think it's irrelevant to this whole topic. I also wasn't trying to say that you "can't" ignore that FE Amie exists, because obviously you can; it's just that it doesn't change anything.

I also wasn't trying to say that FE Amie is equivalent to someone being racist, but they are similar in that 1) they are an optional "feature" of a thing that can either be acknowledged or ignored if it's not central to the "key" feature (in my analogy the gameplay or the business), and 2) is a kind of matter that ends up having a tangible impact on the whole package, even if it is ignorable, unlike something like a cheese-slicing simulator being in the game or a person inexplicably hating cheese. The view that FE Amie is "just rubbing a character's face and them saying a line", implying that it is the "cheese-hating" variety of optional, is technically wrong; even if it doesn't affect the gameplay, it's going to affect the characters and the overall tone of the game, which are still part of the whole package. I don't think anyone is saying that FE Amie is "objectively" wrong, but rather that it impacts the game in a negative way (which might just be my opinion because it is my opinion on this matter, but that's how I view it).

Even if it's mundane in terms of the gameplay, it isn't in terms of the entire game itself, which the gameplay is just one part of (even if you think it's the most important part). And since it does affect the game, I think people do have a right to criticise it, and the game as a whole as a result. And in my opinion, "taking something personally" isn't really very different from having a subjective view of something, which is what I believe you are doing as well by choosing to defend the existence of the feature. It might just seem like an overly personal thing because you can't understand why they choose to see it that way.

My main point was that Sakurai's logic is faulty here, as illustrated by that "rape minigame" analogy (though I have objections to using something like rape as an analogy, considering how much of a sensitive subject it is), because there is the "completely irrelevant kind of optional" feature like the Smash minigames, and the "optional but has an impact on the game" feature like grinding (affects gameplay) and FE Amie (affects overall tone). You can't compare the former to the latter. (I kind of feel like I've been saying the same thing in slightly different wording three times by now...)

Now, if the mods think I'm not sticking to the topic of this thread enough, then I'll just make this my last public post on this matter. (PM me if you'd like to continue, arvilino.)

[Roflolxp54]

The salt in this thread is real.

Fanservice in a nutshell: giving what the fans want. There are plenty of fans who would want the stuff that goes on in My Room. People who are against such features are not necessarily the majority -- they're usually the vocal minority.

If the extraneous features ruin the entire game for you, the solution is simple: don't buy the f---ing game and save your goddamn money for a game that you KNOW you WILL enjoy.

At the end of the day, the gaming industry is a business -- it'd do its best to cover as many different bases as possible for the target audience within reason. If fanservice sells, it sells. It's perfectly alright to not like certain things, just don't let them ruin YOUR enjoyment of the game.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Roflolxp54

[Taka-kun]

Jesus, never knew that this would spark such a heated debate. I am okay with complaining about things the game lack and/or the features it suffers from. Talking about how certain features affect others, in terms of manpower and resources, is pure speculation unless the developers have stated that. Sakurai was just trying to make an analogue to Smash Bros. after all. Alot of Smash players are salty about Dark Pit's and Lucina's inclusion, but I love both characters and regularly use them.

Really, complain all you want but don't assume that because you hate it everyone else does.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

At the end of the day, the gaming industry is a business -- it'd do its best to cover as many different bases as possible for the target audience within reason. If fanservice sells, it sells. It's perfectly alright to not like certain things, just don't let them ruin YOUR enjoyment of the game.

Yet you hear, "We love doing our job." from so many people in the industry. Iwata said he did. Sakurai says he does. They just know the job is tough to deliver. IS just follow the money. I bet they don't care about Fire Emblem. Or just absolutely don't want to do Fire Emblem anymore so they'll force it to crumble on itself. And I say this cause I'm losing faith in them. To think about face rubbing over the main game that it got it's own video? They made Super Metroid, Advanced Wars, Paper Mario, but... They stopped making Metroid games that were good, they stopped Advanced Wars cause I heard it was apparently stealing FE's thunder, and Paper Mario is, I admit, really bad recently. If Fanservice sold so well, then why didn't they remake FE4 or reintroduce the mechanic ages ago?

I'm sorry for sounding darude, arrogant or ignorant in anyway, but you just don't say "it's just business at the end of the day." It really makes me think the career that everyone worked for is really not even worth to consider any good, that they don't consider the work for them.

[Mighty Kamina]

Yet you hear, "We love doing our job." from so many people in the industry. Iwata said he did. Sakurai says he does. They just know the job is tough to deliver. IS just follow the money. I bet they don't care about Fire Emblem. Or just absolutely don't want to do Fire Emblem anymore so they'll force it to crumble on itself. And I say this cause I'm losing faith in them. To think about face rubbing over the main game that it got it's own video? They made Super Metroid, Advanced Wars, Paper Mario, but... They stopped making Metroid games that were good, they stopped Advanced Wars cause I heard it was apparently stealing FE's thunder, and Paper Mario is, I admit, really bad recently. If Fanservice sold so well, then why didn't they remake FE4 or reintroduce the mechanic ages ago?

I'm sorry for sounding darude, arrogant or ignorant in anyway, but you just don't say "it's just business at the end of the day." It really makes me think the career that everyone worked for is really not even worth to consider any good, that they don't consider the work for them.

Yep, that's totally why they tried to stuff Awakening full of features from previous games when they heard it could be the last one, they obviously didn't care about the quality of the game. They've also done a bang up job of making the series crumble on itself with Fates' massive success.

They've made missteps (skinship, for example, and they should be called out on their missteps), but to say they don't care at all is absurd. With all the gameplay changes they've made, they have quite clearly tried to make the games less broken, and they would've left pair up the same if they didn't care about balanced gameplay.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Monado Boy

[rainbowResonance]

Idk about you guys but I like it when ppl have differing opinions on stuff like this. If everyone agreed, life would be pretty boring.

As for my opinion on the extra features... meh, I hope it's "free" and not tacked on the cost production of the game. As for my opinion on Sakurai... I wonder what his priorities are.

It's not the free content that's really the problem, it's what the developers and Nintendo are thinking about... in the long term... they've been pretty arrogant with their opinions so we'll see where this one goes.

Edited August 10, 2015 by rainbowResonance

[Ownagepuffs]

I bid the game adieu and move on with life.

eclipse, my love, this is a narrow minded view.

There are aspects of Fates that makes me want to buy the shit out of it. But skinship bothers me. It bothers the ever living fuck out of me. I'm in the grey zone where it bothers me enough that I can't just pretend it doesn't exist, but at the same time not enough to make me not purchase the game. I've already got my JP3DS coming in tomorrow because I want the game.

Your remark is doing some preaching to the choir. The people that are bothered enough to not buy are already not buying it (RJWalker or Irysa). Of course not ranting about it is a different matter.

Addressing everyone else, the its optional argument is so lazy and dismissive that I have a hard time reading it without facepalming. If your sole defense for something is to ignore it then that's a point against it. It's amazing that there have been no actual arguments for the merits of skinship. The inherent problem with the argument is that it can be stretched to any lengths at the whim of the user. There is no objective line where that argument stops being applicable. It's an inherently flawed, "always win" argument.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Balcerzak]

It's amazing that there have been no actual arguments for the merits of skinship.

But there have been and are arguments for the merits of skinship. As far as I remember they went:

1) It looks fun.

2) It's supposed to be a chance to relax between the rigors of combat and just chill out with your army.

3) Probably some other ones I missed.

[Jedi]

But there have been and are arguments for the merits of skinship. As far as I remember they went:

1) It looks fun.

2) It's supposed to be a chance to relax between the rigors of combat and just chill out with your army.

3) Probably some other ones I missed.

It also adds some minor support points, but its limited to the point of not being able to be abused.

[The DanMan]

eclipse, my love, this is a narrow minded view.

There are aspects of Fates that makes me want to buy the shit out of it. But skinship bothers me. It bothers the ever living fuck out of me. I'm in the grey zone where it bothers me enough that I can't just pretend it doesn't exist, but at the same time not enough to make me not purchase the game. I've already got my JP3DS coming in tomorrow because I want the game.

Your remark is doing some preaching to the choir. The people that are bothered enough to not buy are already not buying it (RJWalker or Irysa). Of course not ranting about it is a different matter.

Addressing everyone else, the its optional argument is so lazy and dismissive that I have a hard time reading it without facepalming. If your sole defense for something is to ignore it then that's a point against it. It's amazing that there have been no actual arguments for the merits of skinship. The inherent problem with the argument is that it can be stretched to any lengths at the whim of the user. There is no objective line where that argument stops being applicable. It's an inherently flawed, "always win" argument.

That's not the full quote.

"If something optional becomes so obnoxious that the game becomes unplayable, I bid the game adieu and move on with life."

And yeah. There's a lot to love and a lot to hate about Fates.