Smash 4, Character Discussion Thread. #21 Metaknight

[Tamarsamar]

The king of cheese, literally none of his specials have any respect to them whatsoever (though Super Dedede Jump can be canceled out of respect). His Inhale when compared to Kirby's is specialized for "Kirbycide"-styled KOs. Jet Hammer is a charge attack that damages Dedede himself after a while. Gordo Throw boldly bets that you won't knock that thing back in his face. Fun fact about the Dedede matchup that a surprisingly large number of players let themselves get beaten not knowing, by the way: the Gordo will auto-reflect when hit with almost any attack. If the Dedede player recognizes that their opponent does not know that, they will exploit every last drop out of that to easily camp out their opponent.

Everything else about Dedede is basically your standard large heavy powerhouse with a couple of meteors, though unlike someone like Bowser, his hammer gives him a surprising amount of good spacing options. His jab in particular is actually pretty good and needs to be respected, and his up-air can score some surprisingly early KOs if you aren't careful. His dash attack and down-tilt also have lots of range with hitboxes that last forever. Just in general, don't get caught off-guard in front of him. It will hurt.

How I see the Dedede Daio matchup with my characters:

Yoshi: My roflcopter goes dairdairdairdairdair. Having a large hurtbox is a massive liability against Yoshi especially, and Yoshi being able to score quick-and-easy cross-ups with Dash Attack doesn't help Dedede's case one bit. Simply tap A when you see the Gordo animation start when you're nearby in the air for instant punish. Your eggs are a vastly superior zoning tool, anyway. Don't try to score cheesy off-stage KOs, as that is the one area Dedede excels in better than you; if customs are allowed, equip Lick instead. If you fight him legitimately, it shouldn't even be a contest. (Side note: I'd also put the Kirby/Dedede matchup in Kirby's favor under similar conditions.)

Charizard: Charizard and King Dedede decided to get together and make a cheap knockoff of Bowser and Donkey Kong's "clash of the titans" matchup. Anyway, this applies in general with Charizard, but don't go offstage against Dedede if you can help it unless he's recovering low and you're absolutely sure you can intercept Super Dedede Jump with bair or dair. On stage, fair is a good tool as usual, and uair can KO if you've racked up enough damage, but in general Dedede beats you in the aerial game, so in general do not try to contest him should he go for an aerial approach; wait for him to land--shield and up-tilt are your friends here. On the ground, Flamethrower spacing beats Gordo spacing (and even hammer spacing when fresh), Dedede will have a hard time landing KOs with his power moves if you intercept them with Rock Smash, and if he's sloppy with his Super Dedede Jump recovery, that is a free punish with Flare Blitz. Overall, this matchup is comparatively much more even, and largely comes down to each player's knowledge of both characters (much like, again, most matchups in this game).

Robin: All the projectiles in the world against a massive target. Intercepting Gordo Throw with Thoron is particularly amusing, but most of the time you'll be shielding those; maybe batting those back with bronze sword if you have the time. With careful spacing you can rack up quite a bit of damage safely, but then comes the sticky matter of actually landing the KO. Your grab range is pitiful compared to his, yet leads into some of your most potent KO setups. In that sense, it really comes down to which player can catch the other off-guard first.

Mii Swordfighter: My roflcopter goes ChakramChakramChakramChakramfsmash Dedede has a hard time dealing with short-hopped Gale Strike spam, and once he's in the air you can juggle him with your faster aerials. If he goes for a power attack, reading with Blade Counter should cost him as much as the stock! Though Dedede has a range comparable to Shulk's, he doesn't have nearly the mobility that made that threatening in that particular matchup, and I would be much more comfortable bringing my Mii in against a Dedede than I would against a Shulk.

(Finally, it's "Dedede," as in, the Latin pronunciation of that sequence of letters.)

[Aura Wolf]

His dtilt is good for comboes; he can do dtilt -> dilt (this option requires a really low percent, if not 0, and possibly doesn't work on the floater characters), and when that stops working, jab 1 -> jab 2 -> dtilt. Ftilt is also pretty solid.

Dthrow -> Uair is a good KO option, but if the opponent takes too much damage, the next best KO move is probably Bair, though that will require a harder read.

Despite doing less damage, dthrow (6% iirc) has more knockback than uthrow (9%), so that's weird I guess. Or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDIT: I tested those throws at a higher percent, so it might actually be the knockback growth that's higher, not the base

Edited August 24, 2015 by Aura Wolf

[Jedi]

^^ You forget that Gordo's can also be used as edgeguards, because a Dedede can stick one into the side of the stage and it gives some people recovery issues.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Jedi

[Elieson]

That's a high level trick but im getting good at sticking gordo to ledges for ledgeprotection and recovery trolling

[Jedi]

Dedede can also CATCH Gordos if they are hit back at him, which I don't think alot of people know.

[Zera]

As a Dedede secondary, here's my information -

D-tilt is the fastest ground attack, and n-air is the fastest air attack.

S-tilt and the second hit of jab are tied for best horizontal reach, and u-air has the best vertical reach.

D-smash is Dedede's most reliable kill move since it comes out faster than his other smashs, covers both sides, and is a semi-spike.

Dedede's jab is very versatile.

An unextended full combo does 16%.

The first two hits suck the opponent in to ensure the combo connects.

The hammer twirl can be extended indefinitely.

The finisher can KO most characters around 180%.

D-throw can combo into u-tilts and later u-airs. I've heard that at certain percents d-tilt combos into s-tilt.

Gordo's can be deflected by any attack that does 2% or more damage. Toss a gordo upward as a defensive wall and anti-air, or offstage for stopping low recoveries. The gordo loses 1% damage every time it bounces, and the hammer swing itself does an additional 10% (this also applies if the opponent touches the gordo while it's being hit). The gordo cannot be deflected while Dedede's hammer is hitting it, making it a bit safer at point-blank range (This does a whopping 24%, btw). Although the game states you can deflect the gordo again with another Side-B, this actually fails 95% of the time. Gordo's can also be used to distract the opponent when recovering.

I have slain many Marths who tried to counter side smash, underestimating the duration of its maximum charge. Don't try that at home.

Jet hammer is insanely risky, but it acts as a portable smash attack, can be held forever, and won't damage you if you're already at 100%.

Dedede's best combo -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sithdTac4Bg

Dedede is the 3rd heaviest character, but also has the slowest falling acceleration. This, combined with 4 midair jumps and Up-B, give him the best vertical endurance in the game. However, he has the worst horizontal air speed in the game, a huge hurtbox, and heavy startup, endlag, and landing lag on all his aerials except n-air. Because of this, his air game is terrible and he is one of the most comboable characters in the game.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Zera

[Tamarsamar]

Dedede's best combo - (video)

Does he still have this combo? I can't help but notice that this video is from February . . .

Good information about Dedede in general in your post, though!

Edited August 23, 2015 by Tamarsamar

[Zera]

Does he still have this combo? I can't help but notice that this video is from February . . .

Good information about Dedede in general in your post, though!

I'm pretty sure that combo still works, but it's easier and therefore safer to just dish the 16-18% and run. I also noticed that some characters like Capt. Falcon occasionally shield the second hit of his jab, which may have something to do with fall speed or percentages, but I'm not sure yet.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Zera

[euklyd]

the relevant factors are what, position of the initial hit (jab1 too far away messes things up), timing (if you're off it won't work) and the victim's fall speed?

I'd imagine that occasionally not working is more about Dedede's timing than exclusively the other character's fall speed.

tho I'm salty that if this is still a thing, Link's got taken out somewhat arbitrarily :V

as far as the Dedede matchup goes, I don't think it's too bad for characters with reasonable frame data (even Link included) and/or projectiles. I never feel like my Link / Sheik / Roy are having trouble with Dedede, only the player (assuming the player is like, good enough to actually give trouble)

Dedede is one of the fastest falling characters and can be combo'd easily by any of my three, although juggling is harder with his multiple jumps

he's harder for Sheik to outright gimp, but she can still fair him to the blastzone and BF

90% sure that Link can dthrow -> uair true combo Dedede at kill% and he's laggy enough that even a tether grab can often get him reasonably

idk I don't have a lot to say here; I don't know the matchup very well and that often gives me problems (never expect the landing bairs, for example)

[Tamarsamar]

the relevant factors are what, position of the initial hit (jab1 too far away messes things up), timing (if you're off it won't work) and the victim's fall speed?

I'd imagine that occasionally not working is more about Dedede's timing than exclusively the other character's fall speed.

tho I'm salty that if this is still a thing, Link's got taken out somewhat arbitrarily :V

TBH jab-cancel-into-jab combos are the jankiest thing about this game and I would not at all mind if the lot of them were done away with.

[Comet]

TBH jab-cancel-into-jab combos are the jankiest thing about this game and I would not at all mind if the lot of them were done away with.

[Jedi]

TBH jab-cancel-into-jab combos are the jankiest thing about this game and I would not at all mind if the lot of them were done away with.

Link deserved to keep his, because it took good timing and gave him a huge reward, something Link mains have wanted since the beginning.

[Elieson]

D3's Gordo is at least neat for mindgames. One thing that works just often enough is to Up-Gordo, then rush in to do something else (ftilt for instance). Since the arc for Neutral-Gordo and Up-Gordo are tough to spot until probably the 2nd bounce, it can throw opponents off once or twice in a match, which is just enough to give you that moment you need to approach a jab and out-reach it with Ftilt.

I tend to do it against mediocre shulks that try to Ftilt-bounce back gordo into my face.

[euklyd]

Link deserved to keep his, because it took good timing and gave him a huge reward, something Link mains have wanted since the beginning.

Link deserved to keep his jab; kill the infinite, but he deserved a good jab.

[Zera]

Link is quite possibly THE worst matchup for Dedede. With three different projectiles (all of which deflect gordo), Dedede has horrendous approach options, and Link's attacks and grab have enough speed and range to make the entire match a nightmare.

To better deal with projectiles, I would have given Dedede one of the following abilities:

Option 1: Gordos should destroy other projectiles. How does a heavy, metal, invincible spike ball get beaten by a freaking egg? It should break right through! It would fix a LOT of terrible matchups.

Option 2: Dedede can inhale all projectiles (including lasers), but eating them incurs enormous end lag, and bombs damage him. Instead of making this a weakness, why not make it a strength? Most people don't use Inhale anyways, so the added versatility would really benefit the move. And it's not cheap in any way since Inhale has heavy endlag.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Zera

[Jedi]

Link is kinda bad for Dedede, but Sheik is probably his worst MU, like pretty much the entire rest of the cast lol.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Jedi

[Elieson]

On the contrary, I find sheik to be among the easiest matchups for the King (though I haven't found a super solid Sheik to face off against I think)

Edited August 25, 2015 by Elieson

[Zera]

I've never been in a Dedede vs Sheik matchup, but I can only assume a good Sheik would tear Dedede to pieces. Just imagine all the red - mmh, don't wanna put a gruesome picture in your mind.

[Jedi]

I've never been in a Dedede vs Sheik matchup, but I can only assume a good Sheik would tear Dedede to pieces. Just imagine all the red - mmh, don't wanna put a gruesome picture in your mind.

You can say "good" for almost any character to do well, its more on the actual baseline of 2 equally skilled players.

[Zera]

I think Sheik would still win. At some point there's a speed difference where one player has to rely on hard reads while the other can simply act on reactions, and that's when a matchup becomes really bad. The only thing Dedede really has going for it is that needles don't deflect gordo.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Zera

[Elieson]

D3's ftilt shuts down spammy shorthop fair sheiks, and Nair/Uair are pretty useful. D3's HITSTUN is pretty horrid, but he's hard to KO. Stage approaches with Gordo allow him to hover at ledge pretty well, which is where D3 arguably does better

Just like a good sheik is, good, a good D3 can get the KOs off of a Less damaged Sheik. Sheik has to work way harder for those KOs

Edited August 25, 2015 by Elieson

[Great Geargia Gateway]

D3's ftilt shuts down spammy shorthop fair sheiks, and Nair/Uair are pretty useful. D3's HITSTUN is pretty horrid, but he's hard to KO. Stage approaches with Gordo allow him to hover at ledge pretty well, which is where D3 arguably does better

Just like a good sheik is, good, a good D3 can get the KOs off of a Less damaged Sheik. Sheik has to work way harder for those KOs

He's also got gooooood grab game. Though he's hard to KO, he's not hard to hit and rack the damage. Then just get thrown off.

But it's easier to play mind games with Sheik to juggle and gimp heavier fighters. Sheik easy punishes endlag on moves.

I feel like I'm the only one with bad Marth game against D3.

[Elieson]

D3's grab game = good? He can only land like 2 hits while grabbing. His good grab options include D-throw into Uair, or U-Throw into U-air. His other options are pretty lame

[Great Geargia Gateway]

But spacing is good enough when you chuck 'em off stage.

[Zera]

D3's grab game = good? He can only land like 2 hits while grabbing. His good grab options include D-throw into Uair, or U-Throw into U-air. His other options are pretty lame

You can do d-throw > u-tilt > u-tilt > u-air at low percents for 42%. That's pretty nuts. And his backthrow alone does 13%. And he has more reach than most non-tether grabs.