Toad in Smash Bros

[Zera]

I'd like to ask a big question, because it truly confounds me - Why do some people want Toad in Smash Bros?

Look at these slides from Masahiro Sakurai's GDC lecture on Brawl - http://www.sourcegaming.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/GDC-Scan-01.png

Standard for Selecting Characters

1. The character must display personality in their game.

2. It's important to have something that character can do.

3. Potential development issues, and game balance is also taken into some consideration.

4. Distribution among the franchises is also taken into consideration.

1. Toad is literally Generic NPC: The Character.

2. Toad has almost no abilities whatsoever. In games where he's not playable, he stands around and does absolutely nothing. In games where he is playable, he can only run and jump. At most he can run slightly faster, and usually at the expense of his jump height. Toad's only hope for a unique moveset is, fittingly enough, the only game where he was the main protagonist - Wario's Woods. In that game he could climb, pickup, kick, and manipulate stacks of enemies, but this would be extremely difficult to implement in a fighting game. Even with references to Super Mario Bros. 2, Sakurai would be scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

3. A possible development issue would be attempting to make a character with no legs, stubby arms, no weapons, and almost no abilities work.

4. The Mario series is already over-represented by a substantial margin. Toad would only make it worse.

As you can see, Toad does not fit well into any of Sakurai's criteria. But most importantly...

Having Characters in the game with unique characteristics is the highest priority.

Meta Knight: Pointed Sword Dancer

Ike: Burly Swordsman

Snake: Heavy Weapons Specialist

ZSS: Flexible Martial Artist

Toad: ?????

Toad Fanboy/girl: "But what about Captain Toad?"

Me: He can't even jump! He can't even jump!

Edited August 28, 2015 by Integrity

[Jedi]

While I don't think Toad would be the best choice you seem to be forgetting his Mario 2 abilities, being very fast, strong and a small jumper.

You could give him all sorts of Mario 2 gimmicks, although Peach has a few of those as is. His recovery could be the carpet or the super leap for instance.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Jedi

[Tsunami922]

Toad is best as a meat shield.

I don't think he should get a character slot, but if he does, do we get a new special for Peach that functions as a much-needed kill move?

[Jedi]

Toad is best as a meat shield.

I don't think he should get a character slot, but if he does, do we get a new special for Peach that functions as a much-needed kill move?

You can just edit it to be Toadsworth.

[maybe]

alright here's the thing

barely anyone wants toad

like there's probably a few people but it's an absolutely miniscule minority compared to numerous other characters

[Jedi]

alright here's the thing

barely anyone wants toad

like there's probably a few people but it's an absolutely miniscule minority compared to numerous other characters

I think its a little more vocal then you suggest, its still a small group though yeah. No denying it, I'm just saying if he was, he does have some choices for a moveset.

[Florete]

Not sure if serious, but:

And look at those short little arms - those aren't made for fighting!

Standard for Selecting Characters

- The character must display personality in their game.

- It's important to have something that character can do.

- Potential development issues, and game balance is also taken into some consideration.

- Distribution among the franchises is also taken into consideration.

Does Toad fit the bill for ANY of these?

- He has about as much personality as Mario.

- This one is admittedly a problem, but there's more material to draw from than there was for Peach and this is Sakurai we're talking about.

- What, do you think Toad would be totally OP or something?

- He's a Mario character.

For the record, Yoshi is a similarly generic character, just one member of a species. Toad has many playable appearances and is way more than a generic NPC nowadays. If you don't want him in Smash, fine, but that doesn't mean others shouldn't.

[Jedi]

Oh also people seem to forget he was playable in Wario's Woods, which could also lend itself to a moveset.

Really good post btw Rfof. Somehow I didn't think of the Yoshi comparison lol.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Jedi

[maybe]

Despite the fact that I don't really want Toad, I'll say one thing.

If Sakurai can make full movesets for Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, and Wii Fit Trainer, he can make movesets for goddamn anything.

[deleted35362]

Toad Fanboy/girl: "But what about Captain Toad?"

Me: He can't even jump! He can't even jump!

captain toad only doesnt jump because his bag is full of stuff...

Despite the fact that I don't really want Toad, I'll say one thing.

If Sakurai can make full movesets for Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, and Wii Fit Trainer, he can make movesets for goddamn anything.

duck hunt is pretty much banjo and kazooie

[maybe]

captain toad only doesnt jump because his bag is full of stuff...

duck hunt is pretty much banjo and kazooie

thing is

duck hunt is a game where someone shoots ducks and a dog laughs at them if they fail

a full moveset was made for the dog carrying one of the ducks and also someone occasionally shooting

[Zera]

For the record, Yoshi is a similarly generic character, just one member of a species. Toad has many playable appearances and is way more than a generic NPC nowadays. If you don't want him in Smash, fine, but that doesn't mean others shouldn't.

For the record, Yoshi has a full blown game series and a plethora of unique abilities -

Can maintain a ton of aerial momentum.

Can perform a flutter in midair.

Can use tongue to attack and swallow enemies, turning them into eggs.

Can throw eggs at many different angles.

Can consume watermelons for various attack abilities.

Toad's abilities by game (Excluding the NSMB series where he has no unique attributes) -

Super Mario Bros. 2: Can carry objects faster at the expense of jump height.

Wario's Woods: Can climb, pickup, kick, and manipulate stacks of enemies.

Super Mario 3D World: Can run faster at the expense of jump height.

Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker: Can... walk?

Edited August 27, 2015 by Zera

[Florete]

Most of your arguments seem to be about where his moveset would come from, and the only response is:

If Sakurai can make full movesets for Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, and Wii Fit Trainer, he can make movesets for goddamn anything.

Throw Villager in there for good measure.

If Sakurai sees something interesting in Toad, he'll add Toad. Maybe he couldn't, and that's why Toad isn't in yet. Regardless, it's not impossible to make a moveset for Toad. Personally, I don't care that much, but I understand why people want him.

[Ema Skye]

I'd like to ask a big question, because it truly confounds me - Why do some people want Toad in Smash Bros?

Look at these slides from Masahiro Sakurai's GDC lecture on Brawl - http://www.sourcegaming.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/GDC-Scan-01.png

Standard for Selecting Characters

1. The character must display personality in their game.

2. It's important to have something that character can do.

3. Potential development issues, and game balance is also taken into some consideration.

4. Distribution among the franchises is also taken into consideration.

1. Toad is literally Generic NPC: The Character.

2. Toad has almost no abilities whatsoever. In games where he's not playable, he stands around and does absolutely nothing. In games where he is playable, he can only run and jump. At most he can run slightly faster, and usually at the expense of his jump height. Toad's only hope for a unique moveset is, fittingly enough, the only game where he was the main protagonist - Wario's Woods. In that game he could climb, pickup, kick, and manipulate stacks of enemies, but this would be extremely difficult to implement in a fighting game. Even with references to Super Mario Bros. 2, Sakurai would be scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

3. A possible development issue would be attempting to make a character with no legs, stubby arms, no weapons, and almost no abilities work.

4. The Mario series is already over-represented by a substantial margin. Toad would only make it worse.

1. Toad has more personality as Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt Dog, ROB, Mr. Game and Watch, Ice Climbers, Yoshi and all Pokemon. Too bad none of those characters will be in Smash Bros. Oh wait...

2. Toad has more abilities than Little Mac. All he can do is punch, dodge and Star Punch. I guess he'll never be in Smash Bros. Oh yeah...

3. Again, Kirby and Jigglypuff. Toad's also got his giant head which makes a standard moveset involving his head feasible. Peach has so many butt attacks because her butt is huge.

4. This is an opinion. This also isn't Congress; representation is irrelevant.

[Zera]

1. Toad has more personality as Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt Dog, ROB, Mr. Game and Watch, Ice Climbers, Yoshi and all Pokemon. Too bad none of those characters will be in Smash Bros. Oh wait...

Except those characters DO have personality. Here are some trophy descriptions...

[spoiler=Crushing your argument with canon.]

You could call these two the stars of the NES 1985 launch title Duck Hunt. The goofy dog would chase down any ducks hit by the Zapper. In Smash Bros., these two work as a team to fight. When a can or a clay pigeon is in play, hit the button again to fire at it. Show your foes how the ducks felt!

A creature that hails from Yoshi's Island. Yoshi's come in a variety of colors, and all possess gentle personalities. No matter what problems they face, they always look like they're having fun. Yoshi's use their long tongues to grab and swallow fruit and enemies. They can convert what they swallow into eggs, which they then lay. They also give Mario rides.

The monochrome hero of the Game & Watch series, a fellow who oozes personality. First appearing in 1980, the series were the original portable game systems. The first games in the series were quite simple, but as time passed, technology evolved. The multiscreen series featured game play on dual screens. As the name states, the games also kept time.

A genetically created Pokémon, Mewtwo is the result of many long years of research by a solitary scientist. Although Mewtwo was cloned from the genes of the legendary Pokémon Mew, its size and character are far different than its ancestor. Its battle abilities have been radically heightened, making it ruthless.

The iconic Fire/Flying-type Pokémon. Charizard's scorching breath can melt anything in its path. It soars through the air, seeking only worthy foes to test itself against. In Smash Bros., Charizard unleashes the destructive Flare Blitz special move— a move so strong, it even injures the user!

Toad is a peace-loving NPC. and that is literally the full extent of his personality.

2. Toad has more abilities than Little Mac. All he can do is punch, dodge and Star Punch. I guess he'll never be in Smash Bros. Oh yeah...

2. Toad can only run and jump. That's LESS abilities than Little Mac.

3. Again, Kirby and Jigglypuff. Toad's also got his giant head which makes a standard moveset involving his head feasible. Peach has so many butt attacks because her butt is huge.

3. Toad does not have stretchy limbs like those characters, so you cannot compare them.

4. This is an opinion. This also isn't Congress; representation is irrelevant.

4. Did you not read the link I originally posted? That was literally one of Sakurai's criteria.

Peach has so many butt attacks because her butt is huge.

It's only three attacks - out of twenty.

[Ema Skye]

Duck Hunt Dog is goofy.

Game and Watch oozes personality (whatever personality he has)

Mewtwo is ruthless.

Charizard seeks self improvement.

Toad is peaceful.

Doesn't seem like Toad is lacking in the personality department.

Also Kirby and Jigglypuff don't have stretchy limbs canonically.

Regarding representation, overrepresentation is strictly subjective. For instance, I don't think Mario is overrepresented in Smash Bros because it's their most successful franchise. But I think StarFox is because the game's have never been very successful outside of the N64 version.

[Jave]

Sakurai has broken tons of rules and added tons of stuff to make characters work in Smash.

Why would Toad be any different? He could use Captain Toad and create some moves for him to allow for him to jump and recover, or use moves from various Toads and create a unique version of Toad for Smash.

If Sakurai wants to, he can make it work.

[Jedi]

Except those characters DO have personality. Here are some trophy descriptions...

[spoiler=Crushing your argument with canon.]

You could call these two the stars of the NES 1985 launch title Duck Hunt. The goofy dog would chase down any ducks hit by the Zapper. In Smash Bros., these two work as a team to fight. When a can or a clay pigeon is in play, hit the button again to fire at it. Show your foes how the ducks felt!

A creature that hails from Yoshi's Island. Yoshi's come in a variety of colors, and all possess gentle personalities. No matter what problems they face, they always look like they're having fun. Yoshi's use their long tongues to grab and swallow fruit and enemies. They can convert what they swallow into eggs, which they then lay. They also give Mario rides.

The monochrome hero of the Game & Watch series, a fellow who oozes personality. First appearing in 1980, the series were the original portable game systems. The first games in the series were quite simple, but as time passed, technology evolved. The multiscreen series featured game play on dual screens. As the name states, the games also kept time.

A genetically created Pokémon, Mewtwo is the result of many long years of research by a solitary scientist. Although Mewtwo was cloned from the genes of the legendary Pokémon Mew, its size and character are far different than its ancestor. Its battle abilities have been radically heightened, making it ruthless.

The iconic Fire/Flying-type Pokémon. Charizard's scorching breath can melt anything in its path. It soars through the air, seeking only worthy foes to test itself against. In Smash Bros., Charizard unleashes the destructive Flare Blitz special move— a move so strong, it even injures the user!

Toad is a peace-loving NPC. and that is literally the full extent of his personality.

2. Toad can only run and jump. That's LESS abilities than Little Mac.

3. Toad does not have stretchy limbs like those characters, so you cannot compare them.

4. Did you not read the link I originally posted? That was literally one of Sakurai's criteria.

It's only three attacks - out of twenty.

You're selling Toads abillities really short here, what can Mario do other then jump? Oh wait in the main games he does nothing BUT jump and have select power ups.

I don't recall until 64, him punching or kicking much either. Welp I guess Mario isn't a viable choice. I guess Marth isn't a choice either since all he has very limited frames of animation and all he can do is stab things.... Oh wait. You also know who had no moveset potential at all before Sakurai managed it? Fox and Captain Falcon.

You know who Toad has more chance than? Any Sin & Punishment character.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Jedi

[Ema Skye]

Actually. thinking about what Jave said, Captain Toad's inability to jump due to his backpack could make him an interesting character. Give him a backpack full of stuff and he can't jump without stuff in it. But he's heavier with all this stuff and some of his attacks do more damage (likely ones involving Toad's weight or the backpack). One of his specials (probably neutral) throws something out of his backpack. In addition to acting as a projectile, it will slightly increase his jump height while making him lighter and lowering the strength of backpack attacks since his backpack is lighter (the heavy backpack is what keeps him from jumping canonically). More things can be thrown out and his properties change, but things cannot be put back into the backpack. When he's KOed, Captain Toad starts with a full backpack.

Might not be a competitively viable character but I personally think it sounds like an interesting gimmick.

[Jedi]

Actually. thinking about what Jave said, Captain Toad's inability to jump due to his backpack could make him an interesting character. Give him a backpack full of stuff and he can't jump without stuff in it. But he's heavier with all this stuff and some of his attacks do more damage (likely ones involving Toad's weight or the backpack). One of his specials (probably neutral) throws something out of his backpack. In addition to acting as a projectile, it will slightly increase his jump height while making him lighter and lowering the strength of backpack attacks since his backpack is lighter (the heavy backpack is what keeps him from jumping canonically). More things can be thrown out and his properties change, but things cannot be put back into the backpack. When he's KOed, Captain Toad starts with a full backpack.

Might not be a competitively viable character but I personally think it sounds like an interesting gimmick.

I'd be down to see this, would he be heavier then Bowser with a full conceptually full backpack?

[Zera]

You're selling Toads abillities really short here, what can Mario do other then jump? Oh wait in the main games he does nothing BUT jump and have select power ups.

Herp a derp Over half of Mario's attacks have appeared in actual Mario games. Now riddle me this - When have you seen Toad attack anything ever?

I guess Marth isn't a choice either since all he has very limited frames of animation and all he can do is stab things.... Oh wait.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/8/83/Marthsingle_lord_sword.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100721073129

Such limited frames of animation. And it's not like Counter is a reference to how units always "counterattack" after being hit. At least Marth is fairly strong and has a unique weapon. What's Toad gonna do? Cry on the opponent? Attempt to hit them with his soft, mushroom head?

You know who Toad has more chance than? Any Sin & Punishment character.

That's odd, because all of them have ten times as much potential as Toad. If Toad went against them on Death Battle, it would be over in five seconds.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Zera

[Florete]

So this is basically your "I hate Toad" soapbox. Did you really need to make a topic for it?

[Jedi]

-Snip-

We get it, you love Sin & Punishment, but please. Be realistic instead of hanging all your inaccurate sources you love to hang onto like metacritic, VGcharts, IGN, Death Battle, GameFAQ's and other crap sources.

Toad has a much more likely shot as small as that is, as Sin & Punishment ever getting a single character.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Jedi

[Elieson]

what's sin & punishment anyway

[Comet]

using logic like that should be a sin and is deserving of punishment