Serra or Lucius?

[Irysa]

Erm, his strat needed Erk to Warp as well dude. Serra doesnt Warp in lapogne's run at all.

Also Serra's Mag Cap is the same as Lucius's so they both can't fufill the requirements neccessary for any 2 turn if they are Warping. Training Erk or Canas's Staff Rank takes more effort but its well within reach for them to achieve A Staves in time.

Also the Serra he used was level 5 with 4 Mag... She was only used to boost Nils a couple of extra tiles.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

you have so many defence chapters it literally doesn't matter who you train in FE7. I trained Sain to promotion and he did literally nothing the entire playthrough that base sain couldn't have done. Lowen should be self sufficient enough by chapter 16, and Eliwood literally doesn't do anything until endgame (where he's probably not even required)

@Irysa just do my dondons strategy but replace Canas with Erk. No Serra needed.

Edited October 17, 2015 by General Horace

[Irysa]

Horace, I know, I was addressing ruadeth, not you, because he was saying "oh but it's easier to get Serra to do the Warping than Erk or Canas". Since he was referencing lapogne's run, I was pointing out that lapogne had no trouble getting Erk to Warp, and required him to do it for his alternate 2 turn involving another Rescue Staff user. Even disregarding how easy it is to train people in FE7, Serra cannot do the neccessary Warping that Erk or Canas can because her Mag Cap is 25. Same problem as Lucius.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Irysa

[Yojinbo]

Lucius is still recruitable while 6 turning chapter 17, so he could have used him regardless.

His mag cap isn't good enough to do endgame warping though.

Well I don't know the actual thought process behind the stuff he did. I only watched the run once and remember he used Serra but not Lucius. I don't think he actually trained Serra a lot or even promoted her but I could be wrong.

[General Horace]

I think all he did was get Serra to B staves, she's like level 5 in chapter 32.

Using Serra for that purpose is more worthwhile than training Lucius though I guess.

[ruadath]

I think all he did was get Serra to B staves, she's like level 5 in chapter 32.

Using Serra for that purpose is more worthwhile than training Lucius though I guess.

Yeah, now that I look at it he used Serra's Rescue to "extend" Erk's Warp range.

[Florete]

...

Basically Canas, Erk and Lucius even in an optimal deployment structure are only really competing with each other for the last slot or two, because the rest of the potential units who will take that are just generally worse.

I think you're partially misunderstanding my point here. It's not "There are better choices than Lucius so use one of them instead," it's "Lucius is more easily replaceable." You can argue that units like Dorcas, Bartre, Guy, etc. are worse than Lucius, but that's still more units than the one Serra is competing with. Yes, you typically only need one healer, and that makes Serra's diminishing returns greater than a single combatant's, but again, this is already assuming Priscilla isn't in the picture. Who does your healing when Priscilla isn't around? Serra until Pent, or until Lucius promotes (which is not Dragon's Gate unless you're early promoting for a staff user, in which case why didn't you just use Serra?). Who's fighting when Lucius isn't in the picture? Everyone except Serra, Priscilla, and Ninian (and maybe Matthew).

Nah come on, Lucius can get 2 or 3 levels easily in Lyn Mode, maybe even 4 if he kills Eagler or Lundgren. That puts him to level 6. Getting 4 levels over the course of potentially 5 (but more likely 4) maps only means he has to get 1 level a map. That's not difficult. Promoting units at 10 isnt a big deal either, their stats might end up not being ideal for maps like VoD or Light but you don't need them to have good stats there anyway.

Promoting him at 10 by Dragon's Gate is not the problem I had, but...why? Unless you have some very specific purpose for it, why would you do that? FE7 enemies are weak, but promotion bonuses are also weak; there's no purpose in gimping Lucius like this just to have a staff user at Dragon's Gate when you could have just...used a staff user.

I mean you say that "Serra gets you a semi decent extra combatant for free", and I question why Lucius is "not free". Lucius is not really depriving anyone important of EXP to level up and promote and be better than Serra.

Lucius kills enemies for experience. Serra doesn't. A team of 8 combatants will have the experience spread thinner than a team of 7 combatants + 1 healer.

[Yojinbo]

It's not "There are better choices than Lucius so use one of them instead," it's "Lucius is more easily replaceable."

Serra is pretty much the definition of "easily replaceable".

[Irysa]

I think you're partially misunderstanding my point here. It's not "There are better choices than Lucius so use one of them instead," it's "Lucius is more easily replaceable." You can argue that units like Dorcas, Bartre, Guy, etc. are worse than Lucius, but that's still more units than the one Serra is competing with. Yes, you typically only need one healer, and that makes Serra's diminishing returns greater than a single combatant's, but again, this is already assuming Priscilla isn't in the picture. Who does your healing when Priscilla isn't around? Serra until Pent, or until Lucius promotes (which is not Dragon's Gate unless you're early promoting for a staff user, in which case why didn't you just use Serra?). Who's fighting when Lucius isn't in the picture? Everyone except Serra, Priscilla, and Ninian (and maybe Matthew).

You seem to be saying that the mere fact there are more characters in the "combat units" category means that Lucius is disadvantaged because he has to compete with all of them, wheras Serra is not. This doesn't make sense. Serra is competing with a single unit who is unequivocally better than she is. If you choose to deploy both Serra and Pris then Serra ends up competing with those second string combat units too. Lucius is (essentially) competing with two other units that he is roughly as good as. Anyone else he's competing for that last slot with is worse than him. The fact you can make do without Lucius isn't a good counterpoint because you can make do without Serra as well.

Promoting him at 10 by Dragon's Gate is not the problem I had, but...why? Unless you have some very specific purpose for it, why would you do that? FE7 enemies are weak, but promotion bonuses are also weak; there's no purpose in gimping Lucius like this just to have a staff user at Dragon's Gate when you could have just...used a staff user.

How is an early promotion "gimping" him? Plenty of units in this game benefit from an early promotion. Lucius will never be an ideal choice as an EP juggernaut because of his general fraility, no matter how many levels you put into him. Giving him some defensive boosts (helps to avoid OHKO status, one of the few units that has problems with this), improving his damage output, movement, and general flexability (staff access) ASAP doesnt hurt at all. By the time he gets to level 10 or so he has enough attack speed to double nearly all the enemies in the game anyway. 17 MT 13 AS that hits res from 10/1 sounds pretty good to me. I'd maybe wait for 12 Mag first so he cleanly ORKOs WKs with Lightning, but thats at most another 1 or 2 levels. Lucius's role in a regular playthrough is to be a second string combat unit that hits hard and has some staff utility, and promoting early doesn't really hurt that at all.

Units like Raven, Lowen, Canas, Rath and the fliers all enjoy being early promoted (I'd say Erk but his promotion bonuses really do kind of suck, he really should get speed on promo, and it's the biggest reason I don't like using him). The only core combat unit I tend to use who doesn't get promoted early is Sain (and that's more of a "I don't have another Knight Crest problem). I guess I usually have Heath and Farina milk some EXP after 10 and before their promotions but that's about it. You really don't need a team of total juggernauts to beat this game at the end unless you're planning on fighting every enemy in Victory or Death or something.

Lucius kills enemies for experience. Serra doesn't. A team of 8 combatants will have the experience spread thinner than a team of 7 combatants + 1 healer.

There's shitloads of EXP to go around in this game if you're focusing on a core team instead of trying to train EVERYONE. The difference is super negligble.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Irysa

[Augestein]

I don't think there's a single nonboss enemy other than some shamans that Lucius doens't ORKO in Lyn mode. His bases are significantly better than Erk's. He gains exp pretty easily, 2 levels is pretty easy to assume.

Mercenaries I recall him not ORKOing in 7x. And really, it's just that Lyn's chapters are that short. Assuming you're just going through them, it's really hard to drag them on longer than 5 turns, so yeah, 2 levels I can see if you're using him, but 3 is really pushing it.

[Sniper Knight]

Assuming that Priscilla isn't being used, Serra will already have either A or B staves upon promotion, whereas Lucius starts with C and you'll have to train him, taking away from his combat utility. Serra will be able to engage in combat immediately upon promotion, and, assuming a level 10 promotion for both of them, they'll have ~7 difference in avoid, which boils down to the difference between a safe 36 and a flimsier 43 dodge rate. (~26 and ~37 in true hit.) When dodge-tanking large swarms of enemies, which they'll probably be doing due to low enemy res, Lucius is in much more danger than Serra. Serra also has slightly better def, so if she gets hit, she'll live, while when Lucius gets hit, he has a good chance of getting ORKO'd. Most generic enemies have low enough res that Lucius's lead in magic is negligible against most non-promoted enemies, and you probably won't be using him for bosskills anyways. Getting Serra to C Light is completely viable, and unless you really want to use Aureola/Luce, Divine is good enough to last for the rest of the game. Promoted healers also gain extra BEXP in this game, IIRC, but don't quote me on it.

Assuming casual play, it's even easier to level Serra, since you can just spam Heals or Mends before seizing. Arena abuse is also a thing in casual play, and Serra's exp growth increases exponentially from it.

[Shadow Mir]

Getting Serra to C Light is completely viable, and unless you really want to use Aureola/Luce, Divine is good enough to last for the rest of the game. Promoted healers also gain extra BEXP in this game, IIRC, but don't quote me on it.

Erm, no. Divine is much too heavy to consider using over Shine (Serra loses a whopping 7 AS from it, and Lucius loses 5, which ain't much better). You are right on the bit where promoted healers get more CEXP, though.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Baldrick]

Lucius has slightly more HP and speed, so if he's getting ORKO'd so is Serra. He'll almost certainly have a level lead as well.

[Sniper Knight]

Erm, no. Divine is much too heavy to consider using over Shine (Serra loses a whopping 7 AS from it, and Lucius loses 5, which ain't much better). You are right on the bit where promoted healers get more CEXP, though.

I meant Divine as opposed to Aura for killing promoted/higher level enemies, similar to using a Armorslayer against mounted units.

Lucius has slightly more HP and speed, so if he's getting ORKO'd so is Serra. He'll almost certainly have a level lead as well.

Serra actually has a slight lead in speed, but, yes, I forgot about his HP lead.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Sniper Knight

[General Horace]

Serra never has a lead in speed because she loses AS from any light tome even if they're somehow at the same level (which is unlikely to happen)

Edited October 19, 2015 by General Horace

[Baldrick]

Even if they had the same con and were at the same level, Serra doesn't overtake Lucius in speed until literally max level, where the only enemy doubling Lucius is Morph Lloyd. Even then, Serra would still get doubled unless she had capped speed and a Body Ring.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Dylan Thomas

[Shadow Mir]

I meant Divine as opposed to Aura for killing promoted/higher level enemies, similar to using a Armorslayer against mounted units.

My point still stands. It's not a good idea, because of the aforementioned AS loss issues they have with it. Also, did you mean "Longsword" in that other comparison? Not that it matters, since a Longsword fails to match up well against a Silver Sword against the enemies it's effective against.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Sniper Knight]

Oops, "knight" translated to "cavalier" instead of "armor knight" in my head. Silver Swords aren't exactly common in midgame and have a fairly high demand, whereas you'll only have one Light Magic user.

[Shadow Mir]

Oops, "knight" translated to "cavalier" instead of "armor knight" in my head. Silver Swords aren't exactly common in midgame and have a fairly high demand, whereas you'll only have one Light Magic user.

Okay then. Anyways, if we're talking midgame, you won't have access to Divine, anyway (for the record, the only shop that sells Divine isn't until near the end of the game - not that it matters since Divine's crap), and Longswords are only buyable at the FFO secret shop.

[Sniper Knight]

My bad, I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about (because that wasn't obvious when I confused cabs and knights), carry on gentlemen, I'll see myself out of the conversation.

I still maintain that effective weapons are still better for bosskills, since you usually get a free one of each from enemies or chests (and their axe/lance versions) and they have only one utility.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Sniper Knight

[Yojinbo]

Assuming that Priscilla isn't being used, [...]

Why are we assuming that again?

[Sniper Knight]

Why are we assuming that again?

A Serra or Lucius situation probably wouldn't exist if Priscilla was being used.

[Yojinbo]

A Serra or Lucius situation probably wouldn't exist if Priscilla was being used.

Except that there's no plausible reason to assume that Priscilla is not being used in the first place.

[Shadow Mir]

My bad, I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about (because that wasn't obvious when I confused cabs and knights), carry on gentlemen, I'll see myself out of the conversation.

I still maintain that effective weapons are still better for bosskills, since you usually get a free one of each from enemies or chests (and their axe/lance versions) and they have only one utility.

Most of the effective weapons aren't that great, other than the lords' prf weapons.

[Sniper Knight]

Except that there's no plausible reason to assume that Priscilla is not being used in the first place.

What if you're playing a mountless challenge? What if you grinded Staves in LM and Serra has a huge level lead? What if you, like OP (?) are using only LM units? What if you just want to use Serra over Priscilla on a whim? What if you just like Serra better? What if you were too lazy or wanted to shave turns and didn't visit Priscilla's village? There a plenty of reasons why Priscilla could potentially remain unused.

Most of the effective weapons aren't that great, other than the lords' prf weapons.

Not if you don't want your Lords to get every bosskill. Maybe it's just a difference in our playstyles? Edited October 19, 2015 by Sniper Knight