Serra or Lucius?

[ruadath]

What if you're playing a mountless challenge? What if you grinded Staves in LM and Serra has a huge level lead? What if you, like OP (?) are using only LM units? What if you just want to use Serra over Priscilla on a whim? What if you just like Serra better? What if you were too lazy or wanted to shave turns and didn't visit Priscilla's village? There a plenty of reasons why Priscilla could potentially remain unused.

Just letting you know, as long as you recruit Erk (which there is no reason not to do), Priscilla joins at the end of the chapter.

[Shadow Mir]

Not if you don't want your Lords to get every bosskill. Maybe it's just a difference in our playstyles?

Perhaps. Also, I'd go so far as to say there aren't enough bosses weak to effective weapons to make them worth it for bosskilling, on top of possible weight and accuracy issues, depending on the user.

[Gradivus.]

It's more that the 2x coefficient makes many effective weapons almost useless against bosses since they have low own mt and fail to exceed silvers or even steels by a significant amount even if they get the effectiveness buff. Wolf Beil vs thwomps is one of the biggest exceptions.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Shadow Mir]

It's more that the 2x coefficient makes many effective weapons almost useless against bosses since they have low own mt and fail to exceed silvers or even steels by a significant amount even if they get the effectiveness buff.

That too.

[ruadath]

It's more that the 2x coefficient makes many effective weapons almost useless against bosses since they have low own mt and fail to exceed silvers or even steels by a significant amount even if they get the effectiveness buff. Wolf Beil vs thwomps is one of the biggest exceptions.

Well I'd say Prf weapons should be considered a separate category from effective weapons. Otherwise you're including stuff like the Mani Katti, which is certainly an awesome sword because of the huge +20% crit (and a couple points of Mt over the Iron Sword). The Rapier is less awesome, but still good on Eliwood for similar reasons (+2 Mt, +10% crit).

In ranked runs, the Mani Katti is also free... but what does this have to do with Serra vs. Lucius?

[Florete]

You seem to be saying that the mere fact there are more characters in the "combat units" category means that Lucius is disadvantaged because he has to compete with all of them, wheras Serra is not. This doesn't make sense. Serra is competing with a single unit who is unequivocally better than she is. If you choose to deploy both Serra and Pris then Serra ends up competing with those second string combat units too. Lucius is (essentially) competing with two other units that he is roughly as good as. Anyone else he's competing for that last slot with is worse than him. The fact you can make do without Lucius isn't a good counterpoint because you can make do without Serra as well.

Did you read this part?:

Yes, you typically only need one healer, and that makes Serra's diminishing returns greater than a single combatant's, but again, this is already assuming Priscilla isn't in the picture. Who does your healing when Priscilla isn't around?

Because it feels like you missed it. I think I've made it clear at this point that I agree Priscilla is better than Serra and would recommend Priscilla over Serra in a heartbeat, but this is a situation in which Priscilla is not in the picture (OP stated he's using LM units only). Serra is effectively only competing with Vulneraries. Some players may be able to manage with just Vulneraries, but I find Serra better than Lucius + vulneraries.

Even aside from that, Sniper Knight pointed out that there are any number of reasons why Priscilla may not be used, from the practical to the personal. But that kind of logic can't apply to Lucius' competition because there are too many of them; you'd have to explain away every other combat unit as opposed to just one other unit.

How is an early promotion "gimping" him? Plenty of units in this game benefit from an early promotion. Lucius will never be an ideal choice as an EP juggernaut because of his general fraility, no matter how many levels you put into him. Giving him some defensive boosts (helps to avoid OHKO status, one of the few units that has problems with this), improving his damage output, movement, and general flexability (staff access) ASAP doesnt hurt at all. By the time he gets to level 10 or so he has enough attack speed to double nearly all the enemies in the game anyway. 17 MT 13 AS that hits res from 10/1 sounds pretty good to me. I'd maybe wait for 12 Mag first so he cleanly ORKOs WKs with Lightning, but thats at most another 1 or 2 levels. Lucius's role in a regular playthrough is to be a second string combat unit that hits hard and has some staff utility, and promoting early doesn't really hurt that at all.

Why would you take a second-string combat unit with some staff utility over a dedicated staff-bot who eventually has good combat?

Units like Raven, Lowen, Canas, Rath and the fliers all enjoy being early promoted (I'd say Erk but his promotion bonuses really do kind of suck, he really should get speed on promo, and it's the biggest reason I don't like using him). The only core combat unit I tend to use who doesn't get promoted early is Sain (and that's more of a "I don't have another Knight Crest problem). I guess I usually have Heath and Farina milk some EXP after 10 and before their promotions but that's about it. You really don't need a team of total juggernauts to beat this game at the end unless you're planning on fighting every enemy in Victory or Death or something.

You, maybe. And me, too, as I fancy myself to be pretty good at this game. But in discussions like this I try not to view the game from the scope of an expert, as we are hardly the majority. I don't know how good OP is, but most players getting into hard mode on this game for the first time probably won't want to promote too early; it'll help out a bit immediately, but down the line it can really hurt when the team you've been using starts to feel weak.

This is another reason I suggest a dedicated staff-bot over a second-string combatant. The average player will likely see much fewer deaths this way.

[Irysa]

Because it feels like you missed it. I think I've made it clear at this point that I agree Priscilla is better than Serra and would recommend Priscilla over Serra in a heartbeat, but this is a situation in which Priscilla is not in the picture (OP stated he's using LM units only). Serra is effectively only competing with Vulneraries. Some players may be able to manage with just Vulneraries, but I find Serra better than Lucius + vulneraries.

If it's Lyn mode only units, and we're talking about Serra OR Lucius (beacuse that's what the OP asked about) I'd rather have Lucius unless I can't use any units not in my "draft", even before they both exist, because Serra helps in earlygame when there are no alternatives and you do need the healing (lack of vulneraries).

Or to make that simpler, if in a Lyn Mode units only run, I have to pick between NEVER USING SERRA and NEVER USING LUCIUS the only thing that would stop me from picking the former is the first few maps of HHM. If you waive that, then I'd still pick the latter every time.

However I'm pretty sure OP was talking about long term usage, so they wouldn't care about using Serra a bit early on then dropping her, in which case, Lucius wins.

Why would you take a second-string combat unit with some staff utility over a dedicated staff-bot who eventually has good combat?

Okay, 1. Serra's combat is never better than Lucius unless you hilariously sandbag Lucius. and 2. A second string combat unit who can FUNCTION as a dedicated staff bot (because he can) is better than a dedicated staff bot by sheer merit of strategic flexability and overall contributions. Being able to have your Healer ORKO some enemies if they dont need to heal anyone is pretty good.

You, maybe. And me, too, as I fancy myself to be pretty good at this game. But in discussions like this I try not to view the game from the scope of an expert, as we are hardly the majority. I don't know how good OP is, but most players getting into hard mode on this game for the first time probably won't want to promote too early; it'll help out a bit immediately, but down the line it can really hurt when the team you've been using starts to feel weak.

It only hurts if you're comitted to using the same team the entire game without fail instead of the great new characters the game throws at you as replacements. Come on Fox, units like Hawkeye, Pent and Harken are pretty idiot proof - if players have trouble using them then they're going to have trouble using any units besides 20/20 arena grinded characters. If you're 100% blind brand new, then you'll probably miss Harken, which would suck, but that's more to do with Raven's resistance rather than his comparable combat at 10/9 or so compared to Harken.

The enemy stat curve in this game really stinks and only the bosses and some promoted enemies ever pose significant threats. You should definitely encourage some units being early promoted because they help make the game easier on the whole, even if you want to encourage long term training of other units (which I endorse). It's not all or nothing, and I've made a reasonable argument as to why Lucius's role is not severely damaged by him early promoting. Can you counter that?

This is another reason I suggest a dedicated staff-bot over a second-string combatant. The average player will likely see much fewer deaths this way.

idk, the average player is also more likely to leave their weak staff bot in places they end up being attacked and they die. I can see the logic here though, it's like an extra safety net, but you're not realising Lucius does both.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Irysa

[Brinzy]

Not really sure I understand how the argument about Serra being easily replaceable is somehow a mark against her but not against Lucius. Also I really, really cannot see how people say Pent trumps Serra but ignore that Pent would also trump Lucius - even though Serra has a lot more advantages compare to Pent than Lucius compared to Pent.

I just recently recorded an FE7 ranked run where my Serra was actually slightly stat screwed and my Lucius got arena attention in Chapter 24. Serra absolutely promoted several chapters before Lucius even with the boost I gave him. Furthermore, although I did not keep recordings where someone died, take my word for it when I say that Lucius was by far the most death-prone unit I had on my team. Enemies constantly maintained around a 55-60% chance to hit him, and when he gets two hit by physical units anyway, he made me restart more than anybody else. I wasn't even making aggressively bad decisions. He would just get picked off by like a wyvern + ballista, or he'd kill a cavalier in retaliation and would die to the second one. I primarily used him to have another Physic staff in 17 uses of Mend.

Compare this to Serra, who had much more Avoid and a MUCH better affinity.(Avoid > Attack for casters, I promise), plus a level lead. I believe on that same Chapter 24, Serra was frontlining with Hector because her defenses are insanely better. Just looking at the video, Serra at 19/2 (promoted her slightly early in the previous chapter so she could avoid getting statused) had 34 HP, 5 Def, and 52 Avo when Lucius had 22 HP, 2, Def, and 36 Avo. Considering the two RN system, Serra's Avo lead was significantly better, and even if not for that, my Lucius in the final chapter had 32 HP, and I only brought him along instead of Serra because of Support.

I realize that PEMN, but considering the clear level lead Serra should have over Lucius, the fact that she only competes directly with Priscilla whereas Lucius competes with everybody else - including Serra and Priscilla post-promotion - and the fact that Lucius truly does not have any significant statistical advantages over Serra in any regard, I find it very hard to believe that Lucius is insanely better than Serra, especially on the basis of comparing Serra to Pent (who let me remind you is far better than Lucius and directly overshadows Lucius unlike Serra) and comparing Serra to Priscilla.

For the purposes of LTC, I don't see what Lucius adds that is so great to bring but Serra does not. For the purposes of a casual play, I don't see how Lucius is promoting before Serra. For the purposes of ranked play, there's absolutely no reason to not field Serra.

How is this even a debate?

Lucius has slightly more HP and speed, so if he's getting ORKO'd so is Serra. He'll almost certainly have a level lead as well.

Lucius does not have an HP lead on Serra at any point in the game until 20/20

Serra has a constant Avo and Def lead on Lucius, and she has enough Speed to double everything that Lucius doubles off the top of my head. Anything that I am leaving out is most likely not important for Lucius to double.

Lucius also will not have a level lead, because Serra has more chapters she can be fielded in and gains MORE experience the longer the game goes on thanks to staves giving more experience later + her combat bonus, as opposed to Lucius gaining LESS experience thanks to being a combat unit who gets half experience from staves upon promotion.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Brinzy

[General Horace]

In ranked play it's pretty obvious that staff users are a lot better than any any type of play since they're essentially free exp and combat units get sandbagged for the exp rank.

[Brinzy]

So in what other world does Lucius contribute more than Serra, besides a world where Serra is not fielded but Lucius is?

[General Horace]

in a world where serra is level 8 in chapter 24 instead of 19/2 because you're playing at a much faster pace than ranked play.

[Brinzy]

And you're fielding Lucius to get those faster turns? Really, what does he do? Is it more than what Serra did before to get to level 8? (Headed out but will check response.)

Edited October 24, 2015 by Brinzy

[General Horace]

Lucius orko's all enemies (sans bosses) in the desert pretty easily and unless you're dumb and throw him at hoardes of wyverns he's a very effective unit there. He can warp people with his high magic lategame.

The more important fact is that Lucius can at least gain exp in other maps where Marcus/whoever are saving turns to stay relevant for the chapters he can contribute well with his good combat (like rout maps) while Serra is a waste of space more often than not past the first few chapters where she's force deployed.

[Florete]

Okay, 1. Serra's combat is never better than Lucius unless you hilariously sandbag Lucius.

Serra's combat is going to be better than Lucius' if you promote Lucius at 10 and Serra at 18-20, which is the scenario I was using here. That's a given.

Serra's combat will also be better than or equal to Lucius' if you wait to promote them both, because Serra will ultimately gain levels faster.

If you early promote both, both will have worthless combat.

2. A second string combat unit who can FUNCTION as a dedicated staff bot (because he can) is better than a dedicated staff bot by sheer merit of strategic flexability and overall contributions. Being able to have your Healer ORKO some enemies if they dont need to heal anyone is pretty good.

If you don't think a well-leveled Serra can ORKO enemies, you haven't used Serra in a long time.

It only hurts if you're comitted to using the same team the entire game without fail

Like the exact scenario we were given here?

To clarify, there are two ways in which I am looking at this debate:

-the exact scenario given by the OP, which is Lyn mode only units going into hard mode (dunno if it's Eliwood or Hector, but that won't change my stance). Serra wins.

-a more general scenario of which would be better for an average, less-experienced player - the kind who would ask for advice - to use. Not a tier list setting, not LTC, not "efficiency." Serra wins.

Come on Fox, units like Hawkeye, Pent and Harken are pretty idiot proof - if players have trouble using them then they're going to have trouble using any units besides 20/20 arena grinded characters.

I don't disagree by any means, but you need to look at this from a different perspective. That's just 3 units, and they won't carry a less-than-stellar otherwise team. Especially Hawkeye, since his lowish Speed means he's actually not idiot-proof.

The enemy stat curve in this game really stinks and only the bosses and some promoted enemies ever pose significant threats. You should definitely encourage some units being early promoted because they help make the game easier on the whole, even if you want to encourage long term training of other units (which I endorse). It's not all or nothing, and I've made a reasonable argument as to why Lucius's role is not severely damaged by him early promoting. Can you counter that?

Oh, I agree that Lucius can make a reasonable contribution early-promoted. I just think it's not proper for this scenario, and that choosing Serra over that is the better option.

Consider if a person asked you which of two units you should use, but was only going to take the final answer and not know any other details about good usage. On the surface, Unit A is better and easier to use overall, but Unit B can actually be significantly more helpful...under specific circumstances and calculated usage. Is Unit B really the one you want to recommend?

Maybe Lucius can be better in the right scenario with the proper usage. However, most players won't know what that entails. Serra is the safer option.

idk, the average player is also more likely to leave their weak staff bot in places they end up being attacked and they die. I can see the logic here though, it's like an extra safety net, but you're not realising Lucius does both.

Lucius is more likely to die with this kind of player than Serra, lol. Lucius actually has to engage in combat with his paper-thin defenses to function.

in a world where serra is level 8 in chapter 24 instead of 19/2 because you're playing at a much faster pace than ranked play.

A world that does not exist in this debate.

Seriously, what's up with this? Why do people immediately jump to expert levels of efficient play?

[Irysa]

Serra's combat is going to be better than Lucius' if you promote Lucius at 10 and Serra at 18-20, which is the scenario I was using here. That's a given.

Which is sandbagging Lucius. I mean even in that hypothetical scenario, Lucius probably ends up having more total contributions from the chapters he was in fighting before Serra anyway, and even if his combat does end up worse its still absoloutely fine until CoD.

Serra's combat will also be better than or equal to Lucius' if you wait to promote them both, because Serra will ultimately gain levels faster.

What.

Combat EXP results in faster growth than Staff EXP does until the higher rank staves come into play, and that's only going to be happening after Chapter 22 (maybe in it if you transfer them over to her I guess), and coincedentally Lucius does great in Chapter 23 too. Unless you slow down massively to let Serra stay even early on, she's playing catchup to Lucius for a while even after promotion. Serra's worse speed in combination with AS loss from tomes and her lower Mag stat mean she misses plenty of kills Lucius would get and has worse staff range than he would have. I mean, if we're taking an exorbitant turns or something to clear maps so Serra can stay even in levels, then Lucius inevitably gets more combat EXP too because the maps are taking longer.

Seriously, a level 20/1 Serra has about the same offensive prowess as a level 13 unpromoted Lucius. Serra has a huge gap to make up for the difference.

If you early promote both, both will have worthless combat.

What.

Lucius has pretty good combat early on, and if you promote him once he gets to 12 Mag 13 Speed (average level 11) then a promotion means he is set to have good combat for the entire midgame. I mean, yeah he'll be kind of bad at combat in Chapter 29 (CoD), but he'll probably be staffing there as opposed to fighting, and the same goes for 32 (VoD), then combat contributions in Final are kinda negligble because Athos. Unless you're banning him too?

Serra has shit combat if you early promote her, Lucius definitely does not.

If you don't think a well-leveled Serra can ORKO enemies, you haven't used Serra in a long time.

Didn't say that. What I meant was, a relatively early promoted Lucius can function as a staffbot and a second string combat unit at the same time, wheras Serra's combat sucks if you early promote her (and she probably isn't even ready to promote before he is).

Like the exact scenario we were given here?

To clarify, there are two ways in which I am looking at this debate:

-the exact scenario given by the OP, which is Lyn mode only units going into hard mode (dunno if it's Eliwood or Hector, but that won't change my stance). Serra wins.

-a more general scenario of which would be better for an average, less-experienced player - the kind who would ask for advice - to use. Not a tier list setting, not LTC, not "efficiency." Serra wins.

Not quite.

Oh, the thing is, to avoid the boredom of having to go through the mandatory easy mode after I recently got the game again, I decided I'd do a little challenge run where I can only use the lords and the characters who showed up in Lyn's story. Since the game only allows a max of 12 characters per map (or at least at the final level), I had to drop three of them, and I chose Dorcas (that speed is atrocious, I'll just have Kent, Sain and Hector be my axe users) Wallace (no explanation necessary) and decided either Lucius or Serra. I figured since Lucius is far easier to drop completely I'd use Serra this time, but I wanted to know about future playthroughs just so I could plan ahead for my eventual attempt at HHM.

OP is asking about who's better for future HHM playthroughs, and doesn't frame that as "with Lyn mode only units".

I already conceded that if OP can't use any non LM units at all then Serra wins, but that's purely because of the first couple of maps of HHM rather than long term potential.

The general scenario of an average, less-experienced player doesn't work because such a player won't maximise their staff EXP and buy lots of Physics and crap to get Serra leveling quickly. If your category somehow encompasses that then I call bullshit, plus they could just as easily have decided to dump EXP into Lucius from the Arena or something to get him even farther ahead, and that's definitely a more common tactic that less experienced players use.

I don't disagree by any means, but you need to look at this from a different perspective. That's just 3 units, and they won't carry a less-than-stellar otherwise team. Especially Hawkeye, since his lowish Speed means he's actually not idiot-proof.

Why is the rest of the team bad now because some units early promoted? Not every unit has to be making combat contributions constantly since this game facilitates dumping one or two units out front to fight a bunch of enemies on enemy phase, and doesn't really demand as much player phase precision use of all one's units. I mean 0% growths has been cleared, so prepromotes can carry pretty damn hard, so a slower playthrough with growths AND those units are absoloutely fine.

Also @ Hawkeye; He is pretty much invincible to most things and hits hard. That's pretty idiot proof. You have the Brave Axe for anything he doesn't double and absoloutely has to.

Oh, I agree that Lucius can make a reasonable contribution early-promoted. I just think it's not proper for this scenario, and that choosing Serra over that is the better option.

Consider if a person asked you which of two units you should use, but was only going to take the final answer and not know any other details about good usage. On the surface, Unit A is better and easier to use overall, but Unit B can actually be significantly more helpful...under specific circumstances and calculated usage. Is Unit B really the one you want to recommend?

Maybe Lucius can be better in the right scenario with the proper usage. However, most players won't know what that entails. Serra is the safer option.

"The easiest reccomendation" is not the same as "the better unit". I mean, even in the hypothetical world where Lucius requires this "calculated usage" to be effective, if he's the better unit, he's the better unit. He objectively contributes more.

I mean the "easiest reccomendation" for most FE games just amounts to turtling and stalling to get loads of EXP, and abusing the arena by only going for low wagers and resetting if you don't like what you get. If we start comparing some nonsense like supergrinded Serra to supergrinded Lucius then yeah I guess Serra has more avo and her Mag isn't that far behind (if only because Lucius hit his cap rofl) so she's sort of a better unit, but this kind of comparison is stupid, and I'd hope I wouldn't have to explain why.

Lucius is more likely to die with this kind of player than Serra, lol. Lucius actually has to engage in combat with his paper-thin defenses to function.

We're just hurling conjecture at each other at this point. I think both seem pretty likely, because if Serra's moving to heal units who are taking damage then she has to get close enough to the action that Lucius could have been roughly in the same area to take a kill.

A world that does not exist in this debate.

Seriously, what's up with this? Why do people immediately jump to expert levels of efficient play?

I don't think this is assuming expert level, but having a 19/2 Serra at Chapter 24 means you went slow enough that in a non Ranked playthrough that you could have turned almost anyone into a god if you kept using them (which Ranked doesn't let you do), so it's really moot and the difference becomes super negligble.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Irysa

[Baldrick]

Lucius also will not have a level lead, because Serra has more chapters she can be fielded in and gains MORE experience the longer the game goes on thanks to staves giving more experience later + her combat bonus, as opposed to Lucius gaining LESS experience thanks to being a combat unit who gets half experience from staves upon promotion.

As I have already said, Serra is a lot more valuable in ranked runs because she's free staff exp and you will spread combat exp among all your combat units. But in non-ranked there's no reason not to put all your combat exp into a few units so they can snowball. So if Lucius is in play, he will most likely get fairly constant kill exp, and outlevel Serra who can only heal.

Despite a healer being more useful than a mage, I don't think Serra is more likely to be in play than Lucius. There is no reason to use her over Priscilla, but Lucius having good offensive parameters and C staves on promotion is a reason to use him over Erk/Canas.

[Brinzy]

I don't think this is assuming expert level, but having a 19/2 Serra at Chapter 24 means you went slow enough that in a non Ranked playthrough that you could have turned almost anyone into a god if you kept using them (which Ranked doesn't let you do), so it's really moot and the difference becomes super negligble.

Except at the pace I was going in my ranked playthrough, I had a 19/2 Serra and a 16 Lucius. The only reason you "can't" keep using other units in ranked is because of an exp penalty, but then you're also arguing against one of two units that promotes and isn't impacted remotely close to this as the likes of Lucius. Really, I want you to look at this:

- Lucius joins in chapter 17 and isn't gaining a level unless he was at like 90 exp from Lyn's and kills the armorknight from over the wall.

- 17x has limited slots for good units. Erk most likely has superior offense to Lucius here, so there goes your magic slot. You most likely want at least one decent swordie here (Lyn is who I used, but Guy, Raven, and any cavalier can also work). You also need a swordie to hold off the top if you're looking to clear this in five turns and get all the treasure and as much xp as possible - that's two swordies and Florina. Serra isn't getting fielded here, and Lucius damn sure isn't.

- I fielded both in 18 because Lucius had WTA on shamans. It wasn't enough to ORKO most of the shamans, and he could not ORKO anyone else, but he was durable against the shamans, so he was fine.

- 19 is full of high movement and ranged units that can easily kill Lucius. You can't send him to the right because he's hard countered by pegasus knights with Steel Lances and Javelins that he can't one round. You have to send him with your main force and just let him pick things off. There's enough deployment to use Serra alongside Priscilla; in fact, there is so much going on this chapter that I can't see why you wouldn't want to use both.

- 19x has a Magic Seal and is also full of Mages. Lucius is the worst caster to bring here.

- 20, I used Lucius specifically because I had an RN string that allowed him to crit the killer bow archer from over the wall, and then I took him to fight the mages that spawn in that small room. There are enough deployment slots and enough damage going out to field Serra and Priscilla together. Don't remember off the top of my head if I bought staves here, but I know I had a Barrier staff from the chest.

- 21 is possible with one healer, but if I recall, I think even my Canas was doubling wyverns on this map. Lucius also was nothing special against the other casters and the pegasus knights. Although I fielded a magic-heavy team out of preference for spamming Torch and Barrier, I can potentially see an argument for not using Serra... for all of the like 6 turns this map should take.

- 22, Serra gets access to Physic, which you can easily trade to her because Isadora is terrible and isn't doing anything else anyway. I fielded both Serra and Priscilla, as well as Lucius. Thanks to Ninian existing and the new staves you should have by now, Serra's experience gains are much higher, and the level lead that she absolutely should have on Lucius is going to be maintained. Think about this: Barrier is a sixth of a level, Physic is a fifth of a level, Heal is still a tenth of a level... and now Ninian exists. How can this possibly be worse than Lucius gaining like 8 experience for killing a wyvern - which mine was absolutely doing at a glance? Lucius cannot frontline against a melee unit, Thunder mage, or archer on this map because he's sitting on bad defenses, and although he's got ORKO potential, so do a lot of units thanks to double WTA from reaver weapons.

- 23 is not an auto-win for Lucius. There are several units that can be fielded alongside him to do his job. However, you don't need to field two healers here, and Serra actually has merit. Did I mention that Ninian has low movement, and only two units can benefit from her dancing and still be fully functional... and one of those units has enough movement now to walk out and Physic whenever she's not using Barrier? That's almost half a level per turn.

- 23x, my Serra promoted here. Lucius did not get fielded because Lucius cannot do any significant damage to anybody here. Serra got fielded because her staff was still useful, and her significantly higher Resistance caused the AI to throw status on Priscilla that Serra could take care of. I didn't even have to field Priscilla. I could've fielded Wil and done more damage than with Lucius.

So, really, I don't see what my pace has to do with anything when we're talking about a standard playthrough. Serra maintains a level lead via a role that most of your units cannot perform, and said level lead allows her to maintain a durability lead that becomes even better with any supporting, comparable offense after promoting, and actual flexibility when you realize you can actually frontline Serra at some point in the game, whereas you can NEVER frontline Lucius, because his Avo is not high enough to make up for having the absolute worst defenses in the game before the likes of, like, 28x Nino at the start.

Lucius orko's all enemies (sans bosses) in the desert pretty easily and unless you're dumb and throw him at hoardes of wyverns he's a very effective unit there. He can warp people with his high magic lategame.

The more important fact is that Lucius can at least gain exp in other maps where Marcus/whoever are saving turns to stay relevant for the chapters he can contribute well with his good combat (like rout maps) while Serra is a waste of space more often than not past the first few chapters where she's force deployed.

Warp is an A rank staff. If you're going to train Lucius up to an A rank in staff, you need 110 Wexp. Nevermind that using a staff on him takes away his amazing player-phase offense for that turn. He's got 36 turns of not attacking on the player-phase after promotion to hit an A rank in staves, and since he's not taking counters because he's frail as fuck, he's absolutely not gaining actual levels fast at all. So explain to me how, in LTC gameplay, you're training Lucius up to gain an A rank in 36 turns while having him do anything significant late-game with his offense against casters that he barely damages and melee units that will absolutely wreck him. You can't have it both ways. If he promotes early to start working on his staff rank, his offense is not going to be impressive, Pent is going to be comparably much better, and that "high magic" you're talking about is not going to be high at all.

At most he'll have like 21 magic to Warp with at 20/4, which is a maximum range of 10 units. 20/10 Serra - which is very possible thanks to everything else I've mentioned - has 18 magic and a warp distance of 9. How is this at all a significant point when you're given a unit that can use Warp immediately and has 18 base magic? Arguing in favor of Lucius using the Warp staff for leverage as if this is a gigantic plus for him is reaching.

Serra's not getting fielded? Fine. This doesn't mean Lucius is doing anything useful while he's fielded.

As I have already said, Serra is a lot more valuable in ranked runs because she's free staff exp and you will spread combat exp among all your combat units. But in non-ranked there's no reason not to put all your combat exp into a few units so they can snowball. So if Lucius is in play, he will most likely get fairly constant kill exp, and outlevel Serra who can only heal.

Despite a healer being more useful than a mage, I don't think Serra is more likely to be in play than Lucius. There is no reason to use her over Priscilla, but Lucius having good offensive parameters and C staves on promotion is a reason to use him over Erk/Canas.

If you're going to put all your combat experience into a few units to snowball, why, pray tell, are you putting that experience in a unit that still dies very easily even when over-leveled because he cannot frontline? Why would you not put this into like the 15 units or so that are combat units, double everything when overleveled, and are nowhere close to as frail as Lucius? Furthermore, if you decide to overlevel, are you aware of just how little experience you'll gain? My Lucius on chapter 22 was gaining 8 experience for killing a wyvern, and he was fairly overleveled to begin with. How much more are you willing to go? This isn't even from a ranked perspective. This is from a, "your units aren't even gaining anything from all of this" point.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Brinzy

[General Horace]

So, really, I don't see what my pace has to do with anything when we're talking about a standard playthrough. Serra maintains a level lead via a role that most of your units cannot perform, and said level lead allows her to maintain a durability lead that becomes even better with any supporting, comparable offense after promoting, and actual flexibility when you realize you can actually frontline Serra at some point in the game, whereas you can NEVER frontline Lucius, because his Avo is not high enough to make up for having the absolute worst defenses in the game before the likes of, like, 28x Nino at the start.

Warp is an A rank staff. If you're going to train Lucius up to an A rank in staff, you need 110 Wexp. Nevermind that using a staff on him takes away his amazing player-phase offense for that turn. He's got 36 turns of not attacking on the player-phase after promotion to hit an A rank in staves, and since he's not taking counters because he's frail as fuck, he's absolutely not gaining actual levels fast at all. So explain to me how, in LTC gameplay, you're training Lucius up to gain an A rank in 36 turns while having him do anything significant late-game with his offense against casters that he barely damages and melee units that will absolutely wreck him. You can't have it both ways. If he promotes early to start working on his staff rank, his offense is not going to be impressive, Pent is going to be comparably much better, and that "high magic" you're talking about is not going to be high at all.

At most he'll have like 21 magic to Warp with at 20/4, which is a maximum range of 10 units. 20/10 Serra - which is very possible thanks to everything else I've mentioned - has 18 magic and a warp distance of 9. How is this at all a significant point when you're given a unit that can use Warp immediately and has 18 base magic? Arguing in favor of Lucius using the Warp staff for leverage as if this is a gigantic plus for him is reaching.

Serra's not getting fielded? Fine. This doesn't mean Lucius is doing anything useful while he's fielded.

If you're going to put all your combat experience into a few units to snowball, why, pray tell, are you putting that experience in a unit that still dies very easily even when over-leveled because he cannot frontline? Why would you not put this into like the 15 units or so that are combat units, double everything when overleveled, and are nowhere close to as frail as Lucius? Furthermore, if you decide to overlevel, are you aware of just how little experience you'll gain? My Lucius on chapter 22 was gaining 8 experience for killing a wyvern, and he was fairly overleveled to begin with. How much more are you willing to go? This isn't even from a ranked perspective. This is from a, "your units aren't even gaining anything from all of this" point.

Ok. Literally any unit that can use staves can easily use the warp staff by the time it shows up. You get 15 turns in Fog of War and torch is a D rank staff that gives 5 WExp. You get 11 turns in Chapter 26 and Denning's chapter (you'll have A staves before then anyway, but the option is still there). To use Barrier or any staff really. Who else are you going to have Ninian dance in Battle Before Dawn past the first turn or two? Lucius (or Canas or Erk) can easily gain ~130 staff exp here; that's almost enough to go from D staves to A staves. it's really really easy.

I disagree with Irysa's notion of promoting Lucius early and have never suggested it, he likely kills the same stuff unpromoted as he does promoted and staves are almost totally useless from the period he suggests promoting Lucius to my suggestion of right before the desert, so it's pretty easy for him to hit 14-18 before the desert.

Your levelling of Serra is still in a ranked playthrough, one that took 11 turns in Guy's chapter (even disregarding LTC this is awfully slow) and waited out the pirate ship, among other slow clears that allow Serra to gain levels she doesn't have in other playthroughs. I agree with the notion that if Serra is somehow the same level as Lucius, she is slightly better. But in any playthough that isn't a ranked playthrough this isn't happening. They wyverns in chapter 22 are a lower level than enemies in Dragon's gate, in compensation for them having reavers or something. If you say you promoted Serra in 23x of your ranked playthrough, and such she should be in a ranked playthrough. Not everybody waits out every defence map either. I've done more than one S-Rank playthrough myself, and smashed the exp rank by over 5000 experience, in a recorded one previously (which unfourtunately I lost the videos for), i'm well aware of how exp distribution works in this game. If you don't wait out defence maps (oftentimes there's no point since there's very little exp to be gained anyway even in casual/efficient/ranked playthroughs) Serra loses a TON of early experience while Lucius or other combat units hardly lose any since enemy count is down.

I'm again only stating my opinion (with several others agreeing that Lucius is the superior unit) that Lucius is a better unit based on the way I play the game (which isn't absolute LTC every time, I like using chumps like Dorcas and Wallace when i'm not drafting/doing an LTC playthrough). I've (and several other people) have acknoledged that Serra is the better unit in a ranked playthrough. Any other run? She's too much of a pain to level and doesn't contribute anything meaninful outside her forced chapters (and she's pretty useless in one of the 4 already).

Lucius is actually still pretty decent himself in ranked runs since his base level is low and his offensive bases are very good and let him net easy kills while maintaining a low level too.

Edited October 25, 2015 by General Horace

[Junkhead]

Lucius actually works in combat.

[Brinzy]

Ok, getting the A rank in Warp is doable then, but then if anyone can do it, why is this a big thing for Lucius? I realize that of the offensive casters, he's the best choice, but my question is that if we're not doing LTC, why does getting Lucius up to Warp matter to the point where it's an arguing point against Serra? That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever when Pent and Priscilla exist anyway. If we're not doing LTC, then what are we doing that justifies not using Serra but somehow Lucius is so worth going after for a late-game where every other caster has something to offer over him anyway? If you mean a "casual" run, then Serra should absolutely be used over Lucius because Serra should absolutely have a level lead. If you mean something else, enlighten me.

Also, you don't lose "tons" of experience for clearing 18 and 11 faster than I did. You lose at most one level, which I could have easily gained elsewhere by abusing the staff a bit harder. I realize that you're speaking about more than just ranked play, but by using my specific run as an argument, I feel compelled to say that Lucius got a lot of his rounds in around turns 7 through the end of chapter 18, so yes, he would have lost MORE experience than Serra because he was able to counter multiple units at a time. My only point here is that the argument about how much experience Serra loses compared to Lucius for clearing faster isn't significant because the actual amount is negligible.

I'm not saying Lucius is bad by any means. I just don't see how some of these arguments against Serra don't apply to Lucius or why Lucius getting an A rank for Warp matters this much.

Any other run? She's too much of a pain to level and doesn't contribute anything meaninful outside her forced chapters (and she's pretty useless in one of the 4 already).

Let's see, four chapters where she's most certainly not a detriment, compared to how many chapters where Lucius is worth using specifically to kill a boss or rout enemies? How many chapters does Lucius having access to Warp matters when Pent and Priscilla also exist? How many chapters does Lucius matter for the three rout chapters that you get after you recruit him, one of those being against casters he can't damage, another being against a map full of casters that he does little damage to, and the third being the desert? How many chapters does Lucius actually speed up with his player-phase offense that cannot be reliably used on enemy phase because he dies instantly? How many chapters does Pent exist in that doesn't make Lucius himself redundant even after you've let him soak up kills from all the other units that also evolve into powerful forces later?

Again, not saying Lucius is useless... but he's absolutely nowhere close to essential when compared directly to Serra.

Lucius actually works in combat.

So do over 90% of your units.

If we're going to use this argument, then Serra only having competition from one unit early on for her role is superior than everyone else having competition for your role when you're also almost as useless as an archer on enemy phase.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Brinzy

[Junkhead]

This is Serra vs. Lucius, not Lucius vs. everyone. While we're at it, why not make it entirely moot by saying Pent does both things a lot better than them?

[Refa]

Again, not saying Lucius is useless... but he's absolutely nowhere close to essential when compared directly to Serra.

What does Serra do that's essential? Healing in Chapters 11-14 (some of the easiest chapters in the game with barely any reinforcements)? Yes, it is helpful that she heals (especially if you want to train scrubs), but it's not essential. Lucius being one of the best combat units in the desert is already more important than whatever Serra did. With HHM's limited slots, I'd rather deploy another combat unit over Serra.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Refa

[Carmine Sword]

Serra can't even do that much healing in Chapter 12 without exposing herself to a bunch of enemies.

[Brinzy]

This is Serra vs. Lucius, not Lucius vs. everyone. While we're at it, why not make it entirely moot by saying Pent does both things a lot better than them?

If this is Serra vs. Lucius, then why wouldn't you want one healer vs. a 14th damage dealer?

What does Serra do that's essential? Healing in Chapters 11-14 (some of the easiest chapters in the game with barely any reinforcements)? Yes, it is helpful that she heals (especially if you want to train scrubs), but it's not essential. Lucius being one of the best combat units in the desert is already more important than whatever Serra did. With HHM's limited slots, I'd rather deploy another combat unit over Serra.

Lucius being "the best" combat unit for the desert is absolutely nowhere close to as important as being the only available healer at a time where even Hector takes damage. As a matter of fact, it's not even close to true. This is a gross exaggeration, and I am not sure if you honestly expect me to take it seriously.

Serra can't even do that much healing in Chapter 12 without exposing herself to a bunch of enemies.

Lucius can't even do that much fighting in every chapter he's in without exposing himself to a bunch of enemies.

... Oh but wait, he has to expose himself because he's a combat unit. Good thing he's got godtier defenses to back him up!

Edited October 25, 2015 by Brinzy

[Ansem]

nvm

Edited October 25, 2015 by :smug: