The next Fire Emblem story

[Rapier]

FE 10's plot was disappointing because there was so much they could have done with it that they didn't do. For example, I think it would be far more interesting if Pelleas actually was evil. Think about it. The Daein Liberation Army is almost entirely made up of former soldiers of Ashnard. Further, the people of Daein still feel resentment towards Ike, and many of them still express hate for Laguz. What if by liberating Daein, Micaiah unleashed a monster on the world? I still maintain that liberating Daein was absolutely not the right thing to do. And then, they portray the Crimeans who are scared by this as evil, when in fact they have every right not just to hate Daein, but to demand reparations. Ooh, don't forget the scene where the Dawn Brigade liberate the equivalent of the Waffen SS! Jarod was a dick, sure, but the solution isn't to give Daein independence in its un reformed state, it's to put a Governor General in charge who isn't a corrupt asshole.

Not all former soldiers of Ashnard were evil (well, the remaining bigger figures aren't, such as Tauroneo, Zihark, Fiona, Haar and Jill), and the captured soldiers were nothing more than redshirts who had to follow their commanders to serve their country. I'm not even sure if these lowly soldiers knew they were compactuating with mass genocide, on the battlefield your concern is to stab things and keep your neck above your head.

And either way, Begnion was acting like Stalin toward them, being no worse than the nazis (if not significantly worse, since communism got out of so much shit and actually is quite popular in third countries). Laguz prejudice was also a thing in Begnion, if not significantly worse, since they enslaved laguz, while Daein iirc did not persecute them, despite the social stigma, and even if they did there wouldn't be much difference between both regimes, for the aforementioned reasons.

It's not that they portray Crimea as evil. It's that the people from Daein portray Crimeans as evil, and it is their POV that is shown in part 1, obviously. See how the Germans portrayed the winners of WW1, despite them being the aggressors on the first place. We have this tendency of seeing the opposite side that did us harm as evil, that's normal and not a flaw of the narrative.

I disagree that switching for another Governor General would improve the situation, since Begnion's administration is obviously corrupt, and even in the off-chance that they send a non-corrupt person to govern Daein, they'll have to follow orders from a corrupt asshole hierarchically above them, similar to how in FE4 some rulers followed Julius' awful orders. Only the Apostle and her close followers aren't corrupt assholes. Therefore, the only way for Daein to get out of that situation was through independence.

I agree, though, that it could've gone horribly wrong, and the Daein liberation could've been a French Revolution of sorts, with the dictatorship and all the historical persecution. Gladly only Izuka was an "authority" who was evil (and he disappeared shortly after, likely traveling to the future to become part of Sonic Team and screw it as he screwed Daein), and Pelleas was just a silly young boy trying his best to hold up to their expectations, instead of Robespierre. I rather like his character, I just dislike the way the plot treats him and turns him into a burden, useless for the entirety of the story.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Rapier

[blah the Prussian]

I legitimately fail to see how the soldiers of a Daein didn't know what hey were doing. I suppose they had blindfolds on when they saw Ashnard murder the defenseless King and Queen, or that they were brainwashed when they chased down Laguz like animals? Shit, canonically they declare how thrilled they are to be hunting down Laguz in 3-something or other. If the game acknowledges this, it should have gone into what problems arise from this. I do agree that the occupation government over Daein is deplorable, hence the comparison to the DDR. However, would you consider a viable solution to the problem to just give Germany independence in 1948 with no Denazification? Because that's pretty much what happens in RD. In fact, the DB is pretty similar to these guys: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf, if we follow the Daein=Germany example. Begnion, though, was far better than the Nazis, if only because they didn't try to eugenic ally breed the Daeins (a stupid name for a nationality, btw) into a slave race, which was in fact something the Nazis wanted to do to the Poles, Russians, and Czechs. But we can talk about Generalplan Ost another time. Begnion and Daein have a key difference in their treatment of Laguz: the Begnion government is actively trying to stop racism, while Ashnard encourages it. Plus, Ashnard was planning to invade Gallia, and it's implied that an outright genocide would follow, given the fact that Ashnard thinks you should be allowed to do whatever you want and the soldiers of Daein would have a lot of power over Gallian civilians. Ashnard also thinks nothing of causing the Serenes Massacre, while Sanaki apologizes for it when she wasn't even alive when it happened. Regarding Cimea, I was referring to Duke Ludveck, who was rebelling IIRC because he thought Elincia was being too soft on Pelleas. Sure, Pelleas is a nice kid, but how is Ludveck supposed to know that? He was right to encourage harsher actions against Daein, though he certainly took it too far with his rebellion. To claim that a non corrupt Governor General wouldn't change anything isn't accurate, because the catalyst for the fall of Jarod is Sanaki finding out and being pissed, and the Senators can't openly defy Sanaki without committing treason. Seriously, just send Levail and tell him that the Empress has ordered him to disregard any order coming from the Senate that she didn't okay. Problem solved. And speaking of Izuka, he should have been handled much better. I mean, he's basically Joseph Mengele! He's far too evil to just have him in part 1 and then have him disappear until part 4! Have him be in cahoots with the Senators, something, anything!

[NekoKnight]

Seems like you're down-playing the crimes of the not Daein parties and ignoring Daein's better parts. If I recall correctly, Ludvec tried to seize power because he thought Elincia was weak, and he could pull it off, more so than being concerned about the threat of a resurgent Daein. The Serene's Massacre was committed by Begnions and then Begnion waged a world war on the Laguz. Racism against Laguz wasn't the exclusive realm of Daein. It seems like even in Crimea, it was only the most progressive of individuals who didn't have a problem with Laguz.

[Locke087]

This is really long sorry for the novel.... and the typos

I'd argue seven's plot is actually...kinda weak. I mean, it's presented well, but when you remove the fluff, the actual plot largely boils down to going from point A to point B and having random skirmishes along the way. I think Lyn's mode personifies the issues with FE7's plot perfectly: Everything is under used (when no one dies seems like a good time to have other characters actually be important, for instance, and Lyn is never important after this, nor even that important in it), it's really forced and thin, is unable to work within the confines of being FE6's prequel, and pretty much the entire section of the game is going to Caelin, with bandits and Black Fang getting in your way. It's at most four chapters of plot, counting the prologue, spread over ten chapters. At no point does the goal change, and that's just a problem which permeates the FE7 in general.

Okay, that's enough being mean about FE7, sorry if that got tiring.

Nope not tiring, cause your are entitled to your Opinion, if FE 7's story didn't click with you that is fine with me (it it being tiring would also insulate that am insecure about the quality of FE 7's story, I am not and there are very solid reasons I love it so much) , I heard people say Twilight Princess has better atmosphere then Majora's Mask (the king of atmosphere) and to me that is totally wrong, but hey that is there opinion.

But here is why I love it's story more then 9 & 4. (both of which I adore) It is because 7 is deeper and more dedicated to it's themes (rather unique themes for a video game at that) then either of those games.

So what are the main theme's of FE 7 well here is a quote from my essay

" In FE 6 the main antagonist is King Zephiel a man who lost complete faith in mankind do to his father’s repeated attempts to kill him and the chaos that was his family. So in FE 7 they decided to further explore what drove a man such as Zephiel to his breaking point, not explicitly mind you, but they would explore how someone’s family can affect them for good or bad. They would speak as well about the value of life and that people could improve and change. Which properly juxtaposes with Zephiel view that all men deserve to die, because we all at our heart, selfish.

And so the main themes of FE 7 are, Family, the value of life, and the goodness in man. The exploration of these themes in 7 are big way that 6 (even though 6 hardly has a story) and 7 are connected. "

The rest of the game is insanely dedicated to these themes and here is one example again from my essay:

"Hellene and Desmond marriage was a forced marriage done for political reasons. There relationship is totally devoid of love and because Desmond loved a different person and he can't see Hellene and by extension Zephiel as anyone other that the symbol of what was taken away from him. Therefore Hellene became an object of resentment for Desmond, Hellene tried make it work it but Desmond's hatred and unfaithfulness eventually led to Hellene becoming as bitter and hate filled as him. This lead them become a essentially divorced, and the family became split with Hellene and Zephiel living in a one castle and Desmond and Guinevere living in the other Castle (I'm sorry Eliwood but your Queen is living in another castle.... Sorry could not pass the joke). Then they started using the kids as a part of their plans to get back at each other. Desmond pushing for Guinevere's future husband to be king, and Hellene pushing for Zephiel to be king. This is not a power struggle, if Desmond just wanted to maintain power he could easily influence Zephiel as he idolizes his father and wants nothing more that his acceptance and the family to be together again (and he worked insanely hard so he could get his approval but since Zephiel was so naturally skilled at everything it just made Desmond jealous of his skill). No this is all about spite, and I going to tell you the modern divorce parallels here pretty crazy on point. (something I didn't really think about tell I started typing about it.)"

Okay with that out way I will address the rest of your statement

1."but when you remove the fluff, the actual plot largely boils down to going from point A to point B and having random skirmishes along the way"

The basic plot of everything is going from A to B ie. Remove the fluff from Lord of the Rings and all it about is a boy going from his house to mount doom to drop off a ring

2. "I think Lyn's mode personifies the issues with FE7's plot perfectly:"

Here is quote of a example of the theme in Lyn's story from my essay

"And near the end of the campaign we learn that Lyn parents where not accepted by her father and though there was different a reason for it, this still reflective of Zephiel plight. But the difference was in the results because Lyn mother lived a happy life even after her father shunned them, why because she loved her husband and she loved her family, something Zephiel did not have as he even distanced himself from Guinevere his sister."

But I will agree that Lyn's campaign is largely unimportant because it was designed to be a tutorial to introduce fire emblem to people overseas and can by entirely skipped if a person has a copy of binding blade, it hardly reflects the rest of FE 7.

3. Everything is under used (when no one dies seems like a good time to have other characters actually be important, for instance, and Lyn is never important after this, nor even that important in it),

From game design perspective Lyn mode is actually quite a good introduction for the player to the many things the player will encounter in the coming game, for example the Dorcas chapter teaches about defend chapters and how to recruit but works with the theme of the game, again from my essay

"Dorcas it in the chapter he is introduced applies to theme fairly well. In the chapter Dorcas needing money for his sick wife take a job with some bandits which ironically enough end up attacking his own wife. After Lyn talk to him he realize the error of ways his that what doing put people like his wife in danger and end up joining up with Lyn."

And Lyn does not drive the plot, yes, but she create many great character moment with other people like for example again from my essay

"On the ship before the battle on hector mode, Lyn and Hector have a very cool conversation. In it we learn that Hector's parents are as well are dead though in a less tragic way then Lyn's. As they in on in this conversation and remiss reminisce over their shared tragedy of losing their parents, they contemplate how they do not want Eliwood to face the same grief that they have and to lose his father and is big reason for them helping Eliwood."

"A small little note here but good to point out nonetheless is that Uhai refuses to straight up kill her when he has the chance because that would not be honorable and because she's a woman from the Sacae, showing that the black fang are not just cold blooded murderers. This is your first (if I remember right) big hint at the heart of the black fang, that these are not your typical bad guys."

I would also like to remind that Ike does not drive the plot Path of Radiance, nope Elincia, Greil, and Sanaki do, a character does have to drive the plot to be important, Lyn unique situation add the games themes and overall character development.

1.it's really forced and thin, is unable to work within the confines of being FE6's prequel, and pretty much the entire section of the game is going to Caelin, with bandits and Black Fang getting in your way. It's at most four chapters of plot, counting the prologue, spread over ten chapters. At no point does the goal change, and that's just a problem which permeates the FE7 in general.

It is connected to FE 6 by it's themes but as said before but here is one more example

"when Lundgren is trying to kill Lyn’s Father he did so by poisoning him, this is the same way that Zephiel father tried killing him that finally set him off and the difference here again is in the reaction, Zephiel went for revenge and Lyn’s father went for absolution, to right what he did wrong with his kids."

The only chapter I really count as filler is the Merlinus chapter, The rest always have something important in them some more that others, but there is always something. The goal the game goes from get your dad, to find Athos, to get the sacred weapon, to get Nergal, those are four goal changes (and for the extremely technical man 2) so much for no goal change in the rest of the game.

Okay That was long..... I will try to keep the rest short

I, ever the one to hate on FE7's plot, once again disagree. Very rarely is the tactician ever mentioned or present or acknowledged in anyway, and when it does happen it's usually a bit jarring and personally, I feel it takes you out of the experience. It feels like the game is occasionally breaking the forth wall, especially given how little about the tactician there actually is to get invested in, given, well...they don't do a lot.

I agree It could have been done better but I think the concept is better than that of a robin like character and I like the little character moments you get as a chapter starts especially the one you get if you bring Matthew out after Leila dies. I don't like the concept of Avatars in general but if they are going to do it anyways I prefer a mark to a robin.

But, it does involve conflicts between nations and leaders of nation, yes? Doesn't that mean it really is about political conflict? I mean, it's not necessarily done well very often, as we've said, but usually it does fall under the category of being political. Besides, people clamor for games to innovate, so in an RPG (which generally has a fair bit of story), is there something wrong with innovating with the story? You are right, pretty much every FE game centers around demons, dragons, or build up to such, but they aren't inherent to the gameplay, so...I mean, what's wrong with a little experimentation? Especially given how the 'human' aspects of Fire Emblem are one of its bigger draws.

Oh that is what he meant, I thought he said fire emblem did not have enough political conflict... Okay so I agree now, but will still say that is it not the content of a story that matters as much as how it is executed.

Well...I mean, I would argue against that being sad but I've spent a lot of words complaining about the story in Fire Emblem games. I will say I still enjoy FE7, but not for its story, but rather the gameplay. However, as a game which has story as a pretty big part of it, and the series recently having taken an apparent turn of making it more important, I see nothing wrong with desiring to improve it. I suppose none of us do, that's why we're posting here and all, but, you know, I would have bought and enjoyed Fates had I decided not to buy it for moral reasons. I'd just have whined about the story.

I am just of the mind that story and gameplay should be equal parts important if a game chooses to dedicate time to making one, story should not important in a Mario platformer, A Mario Rpg on the other hand should also have a great story, ignoring this is how like Sticker Star come to be (though it failed on both fronts). If more of the industry would take story and gameplay hand in hand we would get more game like Mother 3, and Shadow of the Colossus, because video games can more just fun they can tell stories no other type of art can, and when the industry finial stops trying to be Hollywood we will see more game that show what games can do like Shadow of the Colossus.

My FE 10 rant is to long that will come another time.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Locke087

[Rapier]

I legitimately fail to see how the soldiers of a Daein didn't know what hey were doing. I suppose they had blindfolds on when they saw Ashnard murder the defenseless King and Queen, or that they were brainwashed when they chased down Laguz like animals? Shit, canonically they declare how thrilled they are to be hunting down Laguz in 3-something or other. If the game acknowledges this, it should have gone into what problems arise from this.

I do agree that the occupation government over Daein is deplorable, hence the comparison to the DDR. However, would you consider a viable solution to the problem to just give Germany independence in 1948 with no Denazification? Because that's pretty much what happens in RD. In fact, the DB is pretty similar to these guys: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf, if we follow the Daein=Germany example. Begnion, though, was far better than the Nazis, if only because they didn't try to eugenic ally breed the Daeins (a stupid name for a nationality, btw) into a slave race, which was in fact something the Nazis wanted to do to the Poles, Russians, and Czechs. But we can talk about Generalplan Ost another time.

Begnion and Daein have a key difference in their treatment of Laguz: the Begnion government is actively trying to stop racism, while Ashnard encourages it. Plus, Ashnard was planning to invade Gallia, and it's implied that an outright genocide would follow, given the fact that Ashnard thinks you should be allowed to do whatever you want and the soldiers of Daein would have a lot of power over Gallian civilians. Ashnard also thinks nothing of causing the Serenes Massacre, while Sanaki apologizes for it when she wasn't even alive when it happened.

Regarding Cimea, I was referring to Duke Ludveck, who was rebelling IIRC because he thought Elincia was being too soft on Pelleas. Sure, Pelleas is a nice kid, but how is Ludveck supposed to know that? He was right to encourage harsher actions against Daein, though he certainly took it too far with his rebellion.

To claim that a non corrupt Governor General wouldn't change anything isn't accurate, because the catalyst for the fall of Jarod is Sanaki finding out and being pissed, and the Senators can't openly defy Sanaki without committing treason. Seriously, just send Levail and tell him that the Empress has ordered him to disregard any order coming from the Senate that she didn't okay. Problem solved.

And speaking of Izuka, he should have been handled much better. I mean, he's basically Joseph Mengele! He's far too evil to just have him in part 1 and then have him disappear until part 4! Have him be in cahoots with the Senators, something, anything!

Hm, that much is true, sorry. But still, I think it is a viable option to liberate soldiers (even if they were nazis) to fight for you against a bigger evil. Also, keeping them under a leash helps with avoiding abuses, so they do no harm to anyone. The liberation army couldn't be picky, and the semi-nazi soldiers did not pose any risks at that point, why not use them.

No, I don't think giving back control to an authority of Daein would work, what with the obvious resentment they have toward their enemies and the power void to be taken by some lunatic with views of grandeur. But a General Governor from the obviously corrupt Begnion doesn't work well either. You could argue it is the lesser of two evils, and I'd normally agree with you (even if a rebellion/revolution of sorts would be inevitably under way if the situation continued as it was, that was like a bomb ready to explode at any moment), if the liberation army wasn't on the "good" side.

If by "Begnion government" you mean the Apostle, then yes, she's been trying to prevent racism. Regardless, everyone else does it under her nose and gets away with it. The ones who really administrate Begnion are the senators, and once part 3 kicks in, they're politically unstopable. Worse still, they coerce two countries under serving them or having their population drop dead like flies through Blood Pacts, imo that is worse than Daein could ever pull.

If they were to send Levail, how would that make a difference? A coup d'etat was imminent on Begnion, and even if it wasn't, you only need to look at Zelgius and his interactions with the senators to know who was in charge, and how being a "nice guy" did not stop him from following their orders (to some extent, at least). That is because the military (except pegasus knights) serve the senators [directly], not the Apostle, and thus are submitted to their administration. Also, Levail would be so far away and there's such an intricate corrupt system around Begnion that the Apostle might as well become blind to the situation - remember, it is the senators that are in charge of the military, and thus they're the ones who would receive any of his messages/reports. Sanaki only learned about the situation going on Daein because of Tormod, and Sothe being friends with him.

Izuka was in cahoots with the senators, as he made Pelleas sign the pact, and this is explicitely confessed by him, but he has no other impact in the story (maybe because he was spending all of his time fleeing from Volke, after he became notorious for helping the liberation army).

Edited November 22, 2015 by Rapier

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not sure the average Begnion citizen is any less racist than the average Daein citizen despite Sanaki- recall that it was the Begnion citizens who committed the Serenes Massacre. The senators helped encourage that certainly, but you don't commit genocide on the herons without a very racist starting point.

Crimea is probably a little better, but look at what happens in Port Toha in FE9 or how the nobles turn up their noses at laguz showing up at the palace. It's one of the things I like about Tellius- even the 'good' nation still has significant anti-laguz sentiment.

Edited November 22, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[blah the Prussian]

Pretty much all of the errors I made there were due to not having played the game in a while. Sorry. In any case, how about this third option: let Crimea occupy Daein until it is ready to rejoin the international community. I still think Daein is worse on racism than any other nation, because, again, Ashnard is preparing to deliberately commit organized genocide against Gallia. Incidentally, one of the best aspects of RD's story was in fact how they made the politicians evil and the monarch good. Because, you know, I'm a monarchist. In any case, you say that using a blood pact is worse than anything Daein could ever do, but Ashnard did in fact use the blood pact, and on his own people no less! IMO that is far worse than Begnion. Bottom line is, Daein should have absolutely not been given independence, but the status quo shouldn't have remained, either. Also, seriously, if Micaiah can't understand why Ike did what he did I would question her lack of will for revenge.

[Alazen]

I'm picturing Fates with a narrative like a mixture of Der Langriser and Blood Omen.

[blah the Prussian]

Speaking of that, for the love of god how can I play Der Langriser?

[Alazen]

If you're trying to play a translated version then you'll need the required rom and patch.

Der Langriser has four Paths (Army of Light, Rayguard Empire, Army of Darkness, Independent). As you'd expect, the Paths have different characters but you always have one as a sidekick.

[AnonymousSpeed]

And so the main themes of FE 7 are, Family, the value of life, and the goodness in man. The exploration of these themes in 7 are big way that 6 (even though 6 hardly has a story) and 7 are connected. "

You know, I'm not saying those are bad themes, but they're not bad themes at all, however, it's a bit hard to take the message optimistically when in pretty much all the families, someone dies or becomes really evil or both. There's definitely a lot of family in it, but...it never ends well, and that kinda hurts the message. Now, now to say tragedy is bad, but...generally, I'm a fan of optimism, or using tragedy as a cautionary tale. I just don't see that in FE7, though if you like tragic death as a motive, and it can be a very strong one, there's a lot in that.

(FE7 Plot Stuff)

I will not disagree on that, one of the things I actually do like about the plot of FE7 is that it shows Zephiel's origin story. I don't like the plot overall, but I concede that part is well done on its own. However, I think it goes back to FE7 being a prequel to FE6 by design. Ultimately, the reason you go to Bern is, from a Doylist perspective, to set up Zephiel. And...that's kind of apparent. The subplot, while it has its good point, was ultimately spliced in to help set up FE6 and, from the perspective of FE7 as its own game, its lengthening the process of getting to the Shrine of Seals.

The basic plot of everything is going from A to B ie. Remove the fluff from Lord of the Rings and all it about is a boy going from his house to mount doom to drop off a ring

I mean, yes, a plot usually does benefit from having a central objective. A lot of great TV shows work so well in part because of their overarching antagonists. However, having a consistent goal doesn't mean the line has to be linear. In Lord of the Rings, the protagonists are being chased by Ring Wraiths, they encounter different characters and get more thoroughly involved in their conflicts, having to divert from their central objectives. They have obstacles that cause them to have to approach the objective differently as the story progresses.

2. "I think Lyn's mode personifies the issues with FE7's plot perfectly:"

Here is quote of a example of the theme in Lyn's story from my essay

"And near the end of the campaign we learn that Lyn parents where not accepted by her father and though there was different a reason for it, this still reflective of Zephiel plight. But the difference was in the results because Lyn mother lived a happy life even after her father shunned them, why because she loved her husband and she loved her family, something Zephiel did not have as he even distanced himself from Guinevere his sister."

But I will agree that Lyn's campaign is largely unimportant because it was designed to be a tutorial to introduce fire emblem to people overseas and can by entirely skipped if a person has a copy of binding blade, it hardly reflects the rest of FE 7.

To me, at least, the fact that it introduces this one little bit at the end doesn't really justify the lack of interest occurring up to that point. It's certainly not a bad idea for a family issue to have, though, but...it also doesn't feel very relevant, nor that recurring. I don't feel like there's really a ton of build up to that moment, because it disappears in being attacked by so many bandits and having Lundgreen's terribly thin evil to deal with. I mean...going back to the whole family message being contradicted by how bad everything goes for people in a family, Lyn's parents get killed by bandits as well. And, I know it's a tutorial, but it's so forced and so irrelevant to everything else in the plot. I don't find that excusable, especially because it takes ten whole chapters and you are required to play through it. Normally, Fire Emblem games have stopped with the tutorials by then, though, that's a gameplay complaint. But one I feel very strongly about.

3. Everything is under used (when no one dies seems like a good time to have other characters actually be important, for instance, and Lyn is never important after this, nor even that important in it),

From game design perspective Lyn mode is actually quite a good introduction for the player to the many things the player will encounter in the coming game, for example the Dorcas chapter teaches about defend chapters and how to recruit but works with the theme of the game, again from my essay

"Dorcas it in the chapter he is introduced applies to theme fairly well. In the chapter Dorcas needing money for his sick wife take a job with some bandits which ironically enough end up attacking his own wife. After Lyn talk to him he realize the error of ways his that what doing put people like his wife in danger and end up joining up with Lyn."

And Lyn does not drive the plot, yes, but she create many great character moment with other people like for example again from my essay

"On the ship before the battle on hector mode, Lyn and Hector have a very cool conversation. In it we learn that Hector's parents are as well are dead though in a less tragic way then Lyn's. As they in on in this conversation and remiss reminisce over their shared tragedy of losing their parents, they contemplate how they do not want Eliwood to face the same grief that they have and to lose his father and is big reason for them helping Eliwood."

"A small little note here but good to point out nonetheless is that Uhai refuses to straight up kill her when he has the chance because that would not be honorable and because she's a woman from the Sacae, showing that the black fang are not just cold blooded murderers. This is your first (if I remember right) big hint at the heart of the black fang, that these are not your typical bad guys."

I would also like to remind that Ike does not drive the plot Path of Radiance, nope Elincia, Greil, and Sanaki do, a character does have to drive the plot to be important, Lyn unique situation add the games themes and overall character development.

Again, I feel that the fact that it's a tutorial doesn't really excuse its overall story detachment. And, to be honest, the characters which you see again feels a little more like plot convenience that set up to me. I mean, I like Dorcas, but how convenient is that? Also, Lyn's roll in these events is something she's, well, replacable in regards to. Especially with Uhai, he can capture and release anyone and it would show he's honorable. In fact, it being Lyn kinda makes him not that honorable, because he lets her go because she's a Sacaean, which...makes him kind of racist (which contradicts the racism against Sacaeans the game includes which I see as forced and ineffective), and thus less honorable, especially considering his overall actions I would consider villainous. It's really only the Reed family and kind of Jaffar in the Black Fang that comes across as more than practically plain evil, and...most of them die. I also feel differently, that Ike does drive the plot. There is a constant goal he has, to defeat the Black Knight, in addition to the game itself's constant goal of bringing down Daein, in which there is actual mystery and change in the quest to do so. And Ike does do important things, he rallies troops, he wins battles, he leads the Greil mercenaries, the force that does so much heavy lifting for Crimea, he is the wielder of the Ragnell which is important in defeating Daein's armies. And, well...Ike develops a lot, and I feel he's likable, and the message of family works with him because he is able to achieve so much because of what his father taught him, and he still has his sister, and while there is tragic family relations they are presented much better and balanced by ones that don't end in horrible fates for them. Lyn, however, I don't feel develops a lot, or is very likable, and he family situation falls away very quickly.

1.it's really forced and thin, is unable to work within the confines of being FE6's prequel, and pretty much the entire section of the game is going to Caelin, with bandits and Black Fang getting in your way. It's at most four chapters of plot, counting the prologue, spread over ten chapters. At no point does the goal change, and that's just a problem which permeates the FE7 in general.

It is connected to FE 6 by it's themes but as said before but here is one more example

"when Lundgren is trying to kill Lyn’s Father he did so by poisoning him, this is the same way that Zephiel father tried killing him that finally set him off and the difference here again is in the reaction, Zephiel went for revenge and Lyn’s father went for absolution, to right what he did wrong with his kids."

The only chapter I really count as filler is the Merlinus chapter, The rest always have something important in them some more that others, but there is always something. The goal the game goes from get your dad, to find Athos, to get the sacred weapon, to get Nergal, those are four goal changes (and for the extremely technical man 2) so much for no goal change in the rest of the game.

Poison's kind of a generic way to kill people, though, so I don't know if I'd count that. I will admit, this angle of contrasting Lyn with Zephiel isn't something I'd thought of, but I think that I didn't think of it kind of speaks against it. It's neat though, I will say that. I, however, disagree, many fights are either the lengthening of a process or being ambushed. I wouldn't consider myself extremely technical, but as the sacred weapon is meant to defeat Nergal, I'd count it as three. As Lyn's mode has the one objective, that's four goals across thirty chapters, and, well, I find that kinda small.

Again, no shame in liking FE7's plot, there's aspects of it to like and it is presented competently, regardless of my opinions on the plot itself. I like the Reed brothers and Zephiel, even if I don't think the latter strictly needs to be there. It does add a layer of legitimate tragedy and humanity to it. FE7 has a lot of character I don't like, but a lot I really like as well, though...would it be wrong to count those separately in FE, for the most part?

Okay That was long..... I will try to keep the rest short

I hope I didn't make it too long either...

I agree It could have been done better but I think the concept is better than that of a robin like character and I like the little character moments you get as a chapter starts especially the one you get if you bring Matthew out after Leila dies. I don't like the concept of Avatars in general but if they are going to do it anyways I prefer a mark to a robin.

I will agree I much prefer the idea of Mark to Robin, especially because, as the tactician he doesn't necessarily have to fight nor does he need to be so much more important to the plot than doing the actual tactics, however, we can agree it could have been handled better. You're right though, there are some good moments, I'd chock that more up to Matthew than Mark though. I feel like I'm discussing the Bible all the sudden...that aside, I like Matthew, Matthew has good moments.

Oh that is what he meant, I thought he said fire emblem did not have enough political conflict... Okay so I agree now, but will still say that is it not the content of a story that matters as much as how it is executed.

Very fair.

I am just of the mind that story and gameplay should be equal parts important if a game chooses to dedicate time to making one, story should not important in a Mario platformer, A Mario Rpg on the other hand should also have a great story, ignoring this is how like Sticker Star come to be (though it failed on both fronts). If more of the industry would take story and gameplay hand in hand we would get more game like Mother 3, and Shadow of the Colossus, because video games can more just fun they can tell stories no other type of art can, and when the industry finial stops trying to be Hollywood we will see more game that show what games can do like Shadow of the Colossus.

Yeah..an RPG in general should have a better plot, they're RPGs, plots tend to be far more central given their nature; And if a game advertises plot, you expect it to deliver. I think the reason people are so mad about Fates is that it doesn't deliver what it promises. I also agree video games are unique in their interactivity, the time they can take and the world building they can do. Each medium is unique in what it can do, and video games can tell very good stories with incredible effect by understanding its advantages.

My FE 10 rant is to long that will come another time.

FE10 is a game I find is best to just make fun of the plot as it comes along.

Now, on the note of Tellius...Iunno man, I just don't like Micaiah, because she's...kind of a Mary Sue in my eyes, and sort of annoying, and aside from the Thani tome not that good a unit, and if there was a little more...ambiguity to the scenario, then I feel I might find that first and foremost problem less so the case. I mean, I will say that giving Daein complete independence probably isn't a very good idea. I will also say that, while stuff like the senators all being evil and the Crimean rebellion being extremist is the case in the game and justifies some of these things in universe...those scenarios themselves feel kind of contrived. Like, Begnion is a bad guy to everyone, and the evil senators thing is way overplayed and kind of annoying. Perhaps I think that because I don't like Sanaki either, I just don't like that family, it seems.

...also, I'm not generally the one to advocate getting back on topic, and we can certainly continue these debates, but...shouldn't we do so while also discussing potential stories we'd actually like to see? I mean, I still would like to fight a nationalist. Have we had a nationalist main antagonist in Fire Emblem? I don't know...

[Alazen]

RD Part 2 was better than at least the Genocide Paper War. Elincia was certainly better handled than assorted other women who happen to be leader units such as Lyn or Lucina.

Speaking of Micaiah, I'm sure that her premise was being something of an Anti-Ike who picks questionable options. She wasn't really handled to her full potential, especially with the Genocide Paper getting pulled out and Ike being around.

[Gomez_Addams]

Pretty much all of the errors I made there were due to not having played the game in a while. Sorry. In any case, how about this third option: let Crimea occupy Daein until it is ready to rejoin the international community. I still think Daein is worse on racism than any other nation, because, again, Ashnard is preparing to deliberately commit organized genocide against Gallia. Incidentally, one of the best aspects of RD's story was in fact how they made the politicians evil and the monarch good. Because, you know, I'm a monarchist. In any case, you say that using a blood pact is worse than anything Daein could ever do, but Ashnard did in fact use the blood pact, and on his own people no less! IMO that is far worse than Begnion. Bottom line is, Daein should have absolutely not been given independence, but the status quo shouldn't have remained, either. Also, seriously, if Micaiah can't understand why Ike did what he did I would question her lack of will for revenge.

Crimea was still recovering from the brutal war it had just fought. It was in no condition to occupy anything. It would be like Poland occupying Germany after WWII.

[blah the Prussian]

Crimea was still recovering from the brutal war it had just fought. It was in no condition to occupy anything. It would be like Poland occupying Germany after WWII.

Nah, more like France occupying Germany, which, you know, it actually did.

[Locke087]

You know, I'm not saying those are bad themes, but they're not bad themes at all, however, it's a bit hard to take the message optimistically when in pretty much all the families, someone dies or becomes really evil or both. There's definitely a lot of family in it, but...it never ends well, and that kinda hurts the message. Now, now to say tragedy is bad, but...generally, I'm a fan of optimism, or using tragedy as a cautionary tale. I just don't see that in FE7, though if you like tragic death as a motive, and it can be a very strong one, there's a lot in that.

That my boy is the point, FE 7 story is basically one long counter argument to Zephiel motives, and at it's heart it is a tragic tale. FE 7 main theme's are the goodness in man and family can affect a persons life in life and in death and not just parents but brothers and sisters (which is where Hector and Nino come in). The game brings the character to there lowest to highlight what they do in these times, for example

"after they come back the dread isle, Eliwood is lamenting his fathers death to besides himself to go on, Nils and Ninian tell Eliwood of the time they spent at the dragon's gate and what his father did for them there. While they languished away in there his father would often tell they stories of his son and his family, and happy times he had with them, he did this to help keep their spirits up. As you can see from this and his family was his main source of happiness and when he thought to cheer up Ninian and Nils, this was the first place you went to in this we can see from this this man's family is what got him and Nils and Ninian, through this tough ordeal."

In his hardest trial Elbert's family is what pulled him though, Elbert and love for his family broke though to Nils and Ninian, and gave them hope. knowing his fathers love moves Eliwood to start again, The juxtaposition to Zephiel here is sweet, whereas Elbert gave Eliwood hope to move on, Desmond hate cause Zephiel to lose hope and give up, Elbert wiling gave his life for Eliwood, but Desmond repeatedly tried to take Zephiel life and in the end it was it Guinevere who ended his life. In a way FE 7 could also be about how to deal with grief and how different people cope. It's about how to help others have hope, to not judge, and be the best we can.

At it's heart FE 7 is about Imperfection, by the end of this game every ever characters have shown themselves to be a bit of a hypocrite, Hector and Matthew refusing to forgive Jaffar, Lyn refusing to seek pirates for passage, Eliwood killing the very woman who loved him more then anything else. FE 7's world, characters, and villains are flawed, but at there heart good people somewhere down the line they may have fallen, but none of them started that way, (as they the road to hell is paved in good intentions) and many pick themselves up, or have someone help them from where they have fallen. (Renault, Jaffar). This is to show that despite how flawed people are despite how cruel the world is, that live is life is worth living and people worth keeping.

I will not disagree on that, one of the things I actually do like about the plot of FE7 is that it shows Zephiel's origin story. I don't like the plot overall, but I concede that part is well done on its own. However, I think it goes back to FE7 being a prequel to FE6 by design. Ultimately, the reason you go to Bern is, from a Doylist perspective, to set up Zephiel. And...that's kind of apparent. The subplot, while it has its good point, was ultimately spliced in to help set up FE6 and, from the perspective of FE7 as its own game, its lengthening the process of getting to the Shrine of Seals.

The most important parts of game are from the Dread Isle on, so I don't agree, even without FE 6 the game still has the same overall message and this part is important to that message.

I mean, yes, a plot usually does benefit from having a central objective. A lot of great TV shows work so well in part because of their overarching antagonists. However, having a consistent goal doesn't mean the line has to be linear. In Lord of the Rings, the protagonists are being chased by Ring Wraiths, they encounter different characters and get more thoroughly involved in their conflicts, having to divert from their central objectives. They have obstacles that cause them to have to approach the objective differently as the story progresses.

I fail to see how FE 7 does not do any of things you said......

Lyn Story stuff

Look, Lyn Mode was likely added further in the development of FE 7 after cause after Advance Wars sold well overseas to nintendo's great surprise, they decided to ship Fire Emblem overseas, and because Nintendo literally thought that the reason Turn Based Strategy games would not sell over here is cause we are to stupid to handle them... so they had IS make this super long tutorial so the Overseas dum dums would understand the game... Look I think that Lyn mode does a commendable job of foreshadowing and containing a condensed version of FE 7's narrative but in the end it feels tacked on because it literally was. For something they likely never planned to include in the first place, they did fairly well and managed to create something that though tacked on add a little bit to the story. It should have ended sooner, but they thought we were to stupid for Fire Emblem so......

There is a constant goal he has, to defeat the Black Knight, in addition to the game itself's constant goal of bringing down Daein, in which there is actual mystery and change in the quest to do so. And Ike does do important things, he rallies troops, he wins battles, he leads the Greil mercenaries, the force that does so much heavy lifting for Crimea, he is the wielder of the Ragnell which is important in defeating Daein's armies. And, well...Ike develops a lot, and I feel he's likable, and the message of family works with him because he is able to achieve so much because of what his father taught him, and he still has his sister, and while there is tragic family relations they are presented much better and balanced by ones that don't end in horrible fates for them. I Lyn, however, I don't feel develops a lot, or is very likable, and he family situation falls away very quickly.

FE 9 is supposed to feel like you are for hire so for 2/3 of the game you are not the moving things along everyone else is until Ike come to own and the goals of Employer become his own. Your suppose to feel the man doing the dirty work not the one making all the choices nope not tell you are made a lord and lead the army. This moving up the chain is part of what makes Ike a such great character...

oh and Family is not a theme of FE 9's just a topic, (it has no commentary on the subject) The main themes of FE 9, are Racism (and to a lesser extent Classicism), Revenge, Loyalty & Trust, and, Government & Leadership.

Okay that is good for now.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Locke087

[Gomez_Addams]

Nah, more like France occupying Germany, which, you know, it actually did.

At the risk of going even further off-topic...

It was a completely different situation. France was one of four countries occupying Germany, and were practically an afterthought: the territory in their zone was carved out of the American and British zones. France did not, at any point in the aftermath of World War II, occupy the entire country of Germany.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Gomez_Addams

[Alazen]

How about a post-Awakening FE that ends with either the following:

A. A conqueror succeeds.

B. A situation like Begnion's occupation ends with the occupation still going for decades.

C. A nation and others are transformed into a new empire and stay that way.

I suppose you could call it an anti-national/ethnic/racial pride FE.

History has shown us that Hobbes was closer to the mark than Rosseau. No other act of man has gotten mankind more peace than working for it without having a hegemony in the process.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Alazen

[Gomez_Addams]

How about a post-Awakening FE that ends with either the following:

A. A conqueror succeeds.

B. A situation like Begnion's occupation ends with the occupation still going for decades.

C. A nation and others are transformed into a new empire and stay that way.

I suppose you could call it an anti-national/ethnic/racial pride FE.

History has shown us that Hobbes was closer to the mark than Rosseau. No other act of man has gotten mankind more peace than working for it without having a hegemony in the process.

No offense, but what is it with you and Grimdark? This would be a horrible idea for a Fire Emblem game.

[blah the Prussian]

No offense, but what is it with you and Grimdark? This would be a horrible idea for a Fire Emblem game.

Well what he described is basically the plot for LOGH. Why is that a horrible idea, or even grim dark? I would love to play as a conquerer.

[OakTree]

Well what he described is basically the plot for LOGH. Why is that a horrible idea, or even grim dark? I would love to play as a conquerer.

Because Fire Emblem is supposed to be at it's core, an optimistic series, playing as a conqueror would arguably go against that.

[blah the Prussian]

Because Fire Emblem is supposed to be at it's core, an optimistic series, playing as a conqueror would arguably go against that.

There is no rule written down that says every FE story has to be optimistic. Playing a conqueror would be an interesting tone shift.

[OakTree]

There is no rule written down that says every FE story has to be optimistic. Playing a conqueror would be an interesting tone shift.

Do you really think a game where you play as an ambitious conqueror would fit with the franchise whose most common themes usually involve in some way or another, love and companionship?

Even if you want to do a tonal shift in Fire Emblem, that's not the way to do it, look at Majora's Mask for example, it's darker than most Zelda games, but still feels like a Zelda game, why? Because it doesn't discard the archetypical story of a Zelda game, it just takes a dark spin on it by making the adventure less about journeying through the world and more about discovering the different stories of people in a kingdom that will soon vanish.

[blah the Prussian]

Hey, who says conquerors can't be friends? Conquerors make great friends, why Napoleon just invited me over for tea! In all seriousness, the theme of being an adventurer is far more integral to Zelda than the theme of friendship is to FE. That's because the theme of Zelda is integrated into the gameplay. It would be like if FE was suddenly not about strategy. I legitimately fail to see how a conqueror cannot be friends with their lieutenants, as well.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Hell, even people like Cao Cao and Nobunaga Oda had friends, just because you might not any in real life doesn't mean that Conquerors can't have them too.

Edited November 25, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[OakTree]

Hey, who says conquerors can't be friends? Conquerors make great friends, why Napoleon just invited me over for tea! In all seriousness, the theme of being an adventurer is far more integral to Zelda than the theme of friendship is to FE. That's because the theme of Zelda is integrated into the gameplay. It would be like if FE was suddenly not about strategy. I legitimately fail to see how a conqueror cannot be friends with their lieutenants, as well.

We're looking at this from a narrative perspective, while yes, the themes of love and companionship is not that important in Fire Emblem, it's still one of the few consistent elements found through the plot of most of the games in the series, andthere are some subtle elements even in the older games in the series that integrate these themes in gameplay, i mean, Supports were added as a mechanic in FE3, far more longer than most of the people assume it has existed for, there also some more subtle ways that game integrated these themes, such as, for example, recruiting the four Clerics in the final chapter.

EDIT: How could i forget the perma-death mechanic? That's one of the biggest aspects that integrate the themes i mentioned into gameplay.

And while yes, making the game about conquest doesn't rule out these themes, it causes some problems, i mean, how is the player supposed to sympathize with a group of soldiers who all care about each other and protect each other so much when said soldiers are invading other nations and likely killing hundreds of soldiers who are just deffending their own country? The only way to make that work would be to make most characters have unsympathetic goals, which would make it much harder to establish a true feel of companionship among the cast. Either that, or make the entire story a Guilt Trip, which would just not be fun at all.

Edited November 25, 2015 by OakTree