So... Fates was just Rated by the ESRB

[sirmola]

It shouldn't really matter wether there exist places where these things are not taboo, because this localization is primaraly for the united states and europe, and the game was produced in japan, and all of those places DO have those norms.

I strongly belive that a good localization should adjust for cultural differences (i would bet lots of money that soliel X maMU will be changed even if nothing else is, because that kind of thing is viewed a lot more negativaly in the US, so the same words produce an entirely unintended effect in the audience.)

[Pretty_Handsome]

Good localization will understand what is and isn't okay. It's why WoW in China got all that extra work to cover up Skeleton bones because it's not something China and the Chinese want to see. It's a cultural thing.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Pretty_Handsome

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

A lot of people disliked Tharja for being an abusive stalker.

I think the problem with this attitude is that it can apply to anything. Incest? It's not real guys, chill! Pedophilia? They're just cute anime girls, not real people! Those sound extreme but people often use such excuses to rationalize unfortunate implications. Everything is "just a joke". "It's there to make you laugh!"

People are too afraid to take story elements seriously. Fire Emblem doesn't have a lot of self respect when childish psychopaths and sexually deviant sadists are just another "joke".

Bolded:

That's not what I meant. What I meant was "If we had Tharja basically unchanged in Awakening, why do we have to change Eponine so much?". It's not a matter of "People are offended by these characters!", it's a matter of what could be acceptable here in the west or not.

Second:

We are human beings and we can apply it to what we want. I don't have the same rules for everything. I close my eyes at characters like Eponine, because I don't think that's worthy of critique from a moral standpoint.

These games are dumb and if I took them seriously or looked at them with a critical eye my head would explode. If I had to examine every unfortunate implication this game gave me then I'd hate myself and my free time.

I'd rather not do that, at least on the pseudo incest or characters like Eponine and Pieri. Besides half of it would be discovering everytime IS thoughts behind their creepy shit: "Money money money, we want money!".

The only thing that doesn't get a pass from me is lolicon and shotacon, because I personally find it repulsive and it should never have been a mainstream fetish like it is now. But I don't want to bring that up.

I mean, the ideal for me would be to not have any loli/shota marriage option, but then you'd remove a good number of marriage options for non-Kamuis so you can't have all the children anymore.

At this point this is IS' problem anyway and nothing can be done about it with localization, unless they really want to butcher a gameplay point.

OH AND YEAH, do we want to talk about Fire Emblem' self respect? It threw itself into the toilet and flushed it down as soon as IS graced us with Awakening's embarassing plot, with every character catering to a fetish, with walking gimmicks repeating their schtick over and over, with 1000 years old loli IT'S AWWWRIGHT dragons, with people magically not being dead anymore.... etc. Do I have to go on? I don't think so.

Almost everything in these games is a stupid joke.

[NekoKnight]

Bolded:

That's not what I meant. What I meant was "If we had Tharja basically unchanged in Awakening, why do we have to change Eponine so much?". It's not a matter of "People are offended by these characters!", it's a matter of what could be acceptable here in the west or not.

You know, I immediately recognized my mistake after replying to your earlier comment but I was at work so I didn't have time to edit it. I thought I was posting in a character discussion thread so I misinterpreted the context of your post. I agree with you here. Eponine won't be censored considering even more problematic characters like Tharja who made the cut. Fans aren't the ones who decide such things anyway.

OH AND YEAH, do we want to talk about Fire Emblem' self respect? It threw itself into the toilet and flushed it down as soon as IS graced us with Awakening's embarassing plot, with every character catering to a fetish, with walking gimmicks repeating their schtick over and over, with 1000 years old loli IT'S AWWWRIGHT dragons, with people magically not being dead anymore.... etc. Do I have to go on? I don't think so.

Almost everything in these games is a stupid joke.

Indeed. The biggest problems started in Awakening, although they cranked up the unfortunate implications to the max in Fates.

[The DanMan]

OH AND YEAH, do we want to talk about Fire Emblem' self respect? It threw itself into the toilet and flushed it down as soon as IS graced us with Awakening's embarassing plot, with every character catering to a fetish, with walking gimmicks repeating their schtick over and over, with 1000 years old loli IT'S AWWWRIGHT dragons, with people magically not being dead anymore.... etc. Do I have to go on? I don't think so.

Almost everything in these games is a stupid joke.

I'd say Awakening's plot was more boringly simple and predictable than actually "embarrassing"; that, along with bringing back characters via Spotpass, ties into their goal of ending things on a happy note in case the game failed.

The "every character catering to a fetish" is exaggerated; yes, there are quite a few characters who fall in to "desirable" stereotypes for certain people, but "every character" is just hyperbole.

The "walking gimmicks" argument is more true; yes, critical and shopping quotes, along with most romantic support options, just re-iterate the character's gimmick. However, not only are there still some good ones that give depth to characters or tell you new things about them (Kellam X Donnel reveals that Kellam grew up as a farm boy and has multiple brothers back home, and that he's eager to return once things settle down), but previous games in the series have their fair share of boring supports (what does Zihark/Illyana tell us about them that we don't already know?).

However, I will not defend or explain Nowi or Tharja.

And as for your last point... you know what isn't?

The gameplay.

Ultimately, I'd recommend that people reconcile that the series has largely died and enjoy the core gameplay for what it is or get out. I'll use quote from Makalov Fanboy Kai:

"I can still enjoy it, but it's just not how it used to be."

[sirmola]

Good localization will understand what is and isn't okay. It's why WoW in China got all that extra work to cover up Skeleton bones because it's not something China and the Chinese want to see. It's a cultural thing.

Exactly my point.

Additionaly, it IS possible to make things better by massive changes during localization, it just happens extremely rairely. For example, you have "totaly rad" on the nes which took a platformer with an incredibly generic story, and turned it into a hilarious parody of 'tude. The unreleased (until last year) english version of mother (also known as earthbound zero or earthbound beginings) actually included a complete ending, which the original did not have. I'd argue that marth's character ark it SD is another (less extreme) example of this.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

But I wasn't referring to the gameplay, only the narration and most character related things. That's why I said "Almost everything".

And to me the story of Awakening was very embarassing, because I found it terrible. Badly written, poorly handled, filled with player worship.

Some of its moments reek of stupidity, such as Chrom wanting to go to Plegia with the Emblem because... because.

The game's three arcs division is terrible, that's one of the things that I will never defend and one of the things that puts Awakening's narration into the trash.

Even IS and Nintendo themselves admitted Awakening' story is crap.

You can end a game in a happy note without the need of being saccarine. You can have deaths, and still have it end on a happy note. What I'm mostly referring to is Basilio's comeback. I found that to be a really bad scene and again proof of Awakening's poor writing.

Supports:

There is no need to say "But there are exceptions!" because exceptions are still a minority.

I can make a list of good supports in Awakening, but these are a minority. I did a lot of supports because I did many playthroughs, and a good chunk of them were so bad.

And bringing into the discussions the supports of the old games doesn't seem necessary to me. Or do you want me to remember gems like Gonzales/Dayan??

Ultimately, I'd recommend that people reconcile that the series has largely died and enjoy the core gameplay for what it is or get out.

Just because I don't take it as seriously as before that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I can't criticize it.

I sound harsh on Awakening but I still played it a lot and I play it up to this day. Plus I still like a good share of its characters, even dudes like Owain who are the epitome of the walking gimmick.

I can defend the game if I want, and I will especially defend its fans, but I can't defend its flaws, or what I perceive are its flaws.

And back on track:

I enjoy Eponine. I also think she's among the stupidest, silliest characters in the game. Does that mean I can't enjoy her?

No.

I embraced (although not with great joy) the new FE as soon as I decided to buy Awakening DLC.

If I really disliked it that much I would've stopped caring about the franchise like my sister did.

[astrotude]

Just to be clear, Animated Blood is not used to cite graphic depictions of blood in games, that would be referred to as either Intense Violence and/or Blood. Lots of Nintendo games including Zelda and Kirby games have been cited as having Animated Blood before.

Yep! "Animated Blood" can also mean blood that isn't red, such as the Risen in Awakening exploding into purple smoke when they die, or the "blood" in some Zelda games, which (if I remember correctly) is also purple.

I always knew that the game would be rated T. There's nothing in this game that would cause the game to be rated M. The ESRB doesn't think that teens are little kids, but they know that red, graphic blood would upset parents, which is why they gave AA5 an M rating. There's nothing in Fates that would upset parents of older teens. Nothing too explicit or graphic appears in the game, it's merely suggestive, hence the "Suggestive Themes" as opposed to Awakening's "Mild Suggestive Themes".

Also, what's wrong with Soleil? We've confirmed that the entire "curing lesbianism" support thing with the male avatar was a mistranslation, right?

People need to stop whining about how Fire Emblem is "dying" because of these new games. Sure, Awakening's story was kinda dumb, and Basilio's return (as well as Emmeryn's) were so annoying. However, we KNOW Fates doesn't let everyone live. We already know that some characters die, and that there's nothing we can do about it. You think that IS and Nintendo don't learn? Do you honestly think that they don't care about feedback from fans? They took what we said about Basilio and Emmeryn and made Fates so that we experience that sadness. They know now that we want to experience a full range of emotions while playing these games, and that's what they're giving us.

EDIT: Added a little bit to the end to keep up with the current conversation.

Edited December 8, 2015 by astrotude

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i don't really wanna say that the series is truly dead, cause from a gameplay view point its an improvement from awakening, even if other aspects are hilarious, i mean i do thank you for applying my quote here because its not the same series as it used to be, i still enjoy these games, just not as much as i used to because its not even the same thing anymore in regards to handling.

its kinda why i don't want any remakes unless they would be in the form of New Mystery (no avatar tho pls).

also i am blushing that i was actually quoted.

also the thing with Soleil i think its less "curing lesbianism" and more "hey i slipped something in your drink without your awareness". unless that was a mis-translation too, then in that case my bad.

[sirmola]

Also, what's wrong with Soleil? We've confirmed that the entire "curing lesbianism" support thing with the male avatar was a mistranslation, right?

It still involves slipping a mind altering substance into a girl's drink without her knowledge or consent, and then marrying her after she falls in love with you under the influence of said drug. It's true that the level of disturbing was overstated in the gaming press, but it's still disturbing, and i hope they change it.

Edited December 8, 2015 by sirmola

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

It still involves slipping a mind altering substance into a girl's drink without her knowledge or consent, and then marrying her after she falls in love with you under the influence of said drug. It's true that the level of disturbing was overstated in the gaming press, but it's still disturbing, and i hope they change it.

granted marring children in the first place should never have been allowed in the first place, which is what lead to this, but i can't see this being kept the same.

[astrotude]

granted marring children in the first place should never have been allowed in the first place, which is what lead to this, but i can't see this being kept the same.

Yeah, marrying the children units is kinda disturbing but I gotta do it for Femui/Shara. They're most definitely doing to change this, I can't imagine it being unchanged in the localization.

I was talking about the fact that on tumblr, the supports' mistranslation blew up into a huge crazy discussion about how Mamui was "curing her lesbianism". I don't personally think that it was the right thing to do at all, but it probably wasn't meant to be homophobic.

[The DanMan]

But I wasn't referring to the gameplay, only the narration and most character related things. That's why I said "Almost everything".

And to me the story of Awakening was very embarassing, because I found it terrible. Badly written, poorly handled, filled with player worship.

Some of its moments reek of stupidity, such as Chrom wanting to go to Plegia with the Emblem because... because.

The game's three arcs division is terrible, that's one of the things that I will never defend and one of the things that puts Awakening's narration into the trash.

Even IS and Nintendo themselves admitted Awakening' story is crap.

You can end a game in a happy note without the need of being saccarine. You can have deaths, and still have it end on a happy note. What I'm mostly referring to is Basilio's comeback. I found that to be a really bad scene and again proof of Awakening's poor writing.

Supports:

There is no need to say "But there are exceptions!" because exceptions are still a minority.

I can make a list of good supports in Awakening, but these are a minority. I did a lot of supports because I did many playthroughs, and a good chunk of them were so bad.

And bringing into the discussions the supports of the old games doesn't seem necessary to me. Or do you want me to remember gems like Gonzales/Dayan??

Just because I don't take it as seriously as before that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I can't criticize it.

I sound harsh on Awakening but I still played it a lot and I play it up to this day. Plus I still like a good share of its characters, even dudes like Owain who are the epitome of the walking gimmick.

I can defend the game if I want, and I will especially defend its fans, but I can't defend its flaws, or what I perceive are its flaws.

And back on track:

I enjoy Eponine. I also think she's among the stupidest, silliest characters in the game. Does that mean I can't enjoy her?

No.

I embraced (although not with great joy) the new FE as soon as I decided to buy Awakening DLC.

If I really disliked it that much I would've stopped caring about the franchise like my sister did.

I just found your initial post somewhat exaggerated. On average I would definitely say Awakening and Fates have worse supports, but a major reason for that is because so many of them are romantic ones; the majority of platonic ones are all well and good. I've read through a lot of older supports (and witnessed a fair few in Sacred Stones/Blazing Sword), and they're a mixed bag; some are great, some are meh, others are really boring. NuEmblem's problem is that the good supports are choked out by all the boring/mediocre ones.

As for Awakening's story, I'm not saying it didn't have issues; the Valm arc is a massive diversion whose resources could've been used to blend and flesh out the first and third arcs. As for IS admitting the story was bad themselves, they said that to promote the even rougher and worse story in Kibiyashi's initial drafts; who is to say they weren't just parroting the most common critique to prop up FE14, and generally don't have much knowledge on storytelling?

Personally, I've never been that into the story or characters of a Fire Emblem game; it's always been about the gameplay. I just find it overly harsh to say "almost everything" is wrong with a game when the gameplay (which used to be the sole reason people played video games) isn't one of them. If the statement had specified that "almost everything is wrong with the writing", then I'd wholeheartedly agree.

But that's just me, arguing over semantics.

[Crushingon]

Whatever the case, Incest ain't good as far as Western Countries are concerned nor is pedophillia.

Invest can be fixed with dialogue changes, nothing can change the visuals of Elise and the children without a lot of work which they won't do. Awakening got away with it as the kids are "born in the far future". Morgan was the only odd case as they gave you the option to wed kids which makes no sense at all as Morgan(s) is the same age as the kids in their own timeline thus this Morgan is an impossibility.

Here the kids are born, even when Elise is still like 14, and put in a time chamber to age up for WAAAAAAR. Whatever the case, marrying Elise, that one Wind Clan Kid and the Children and getting a child IS pedobear. There's no denying it. They really dropped the ball here as they cannot even handwave it like Awakening.

Well if you want to be that way Lisa was like 13 -15, Morgan, Nah and other children characters in awakening potentially are teenagers too. And I am pretty sure Donnel was around 13 in Awakening. Pedophilia is, by textbook definition, sexual attraction to children aged 11 and below, and even then if you want to go further technical on most places being pedophillic is not a crime, committing sexual assault on a child is. So I really don't see what's so wrong with marrying Elise. I'm totally going to marry an Ophelia mothered by Elise in one of my runs and you cannot stop us. He is far too powerful for me to control at this point.

[astrophys]

I see no particular problem in marrying the second gens as long as they've grown up to maturity and a reasonably comparable age to the Avatar themselves, so that we can feel secure that they're old enough to understand what they're going to be getting into and such that we feel comfortable that it isn't the case of a much older avatar taking advantage of a much younger spouse.

So, for example, I don't see a problem with marrying a second gen like Matoi, but I would see a problem with marrying a second gen like Midoriko [isn't mature/old enough].

That said, I don't actually want the S-rank options cut at this point, as that would affect other people's gameplay and put them on unequal footing compared to Japan, but I'll never S-rank my Avatar with a flagrantly too-young character like Midoriko.

[Crushingon]

I see no particular problem in marrying the second gens as long as they've grown up to maturity and a reasonably comparable age to the Avatar themselves, so that we can feel secure that they're old enough to understand what they're going to be getting into and such that we feel comfortable that it isn't the case of a much older avatar taking advantage of a much younger spouse.

So, for example, I don't see a problem with marrying a second gen like Matoi, but I would see a problem with marrying a second gen like Midoriko [isn't mature/old enough].

That said, I don't actually want the S-rank options cut at this point, as that would affect other people's gameplay and put them on unequal footing compared to Japan, but I'll never S-rank my Avatar with a flagrantly too-young character like Midoriko.

Do we even know how old Midoriko is? She might be older than she looks, just look at Nowi.

[astrophys]

The point is conceded: yes, I don't know how old Midoriko is, but she does look far too young….. so at this point, even if they said, "yeah, she's 18, we swear!", I'd say "not interested". Similarly, I refuse to S-rank my Avatar with Nowi, despite her being 1,000, as she looks to much like a young child.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

speaking of Nowi, i remember hearing that she was far more younger in the original japanese script in terms of personality,i do wonder if thats true.

[Crushingon]

Well I have S ranked both Nowi and Nah (Father being Vaike). I will tell you, you cannot find more powerful Morgans any other way and the supports were cute. It was a great experience, so don't judge without trying it out yourself. I even named my avatar when marrying Nah "Ky" Kiske for the kicks.

[astrotude]

The point is conceded: yes, I don't know how old Midoriko is, but she does look far too young….. so at this point, even if they said, "yeah, she's 18, we swear!", I'd say "not interested". Similarly, I refuse to S-rank my Avatar with Nowi, despite her being 1,000, as she looks to much like a young child.

This is why I need the small MU build. When I married Nowi, it was with the tiny lil boy MU, but in Fates, the smaller male build was removed, so now I'll feel shameless marrying Midoriko (if I want to).

[Twisted Assassin]

So am I. Like Sunwoo/Sangyul said, what value is really lost if you give Camilla a proper top and pants? If you change a bit of text so it's less suggestive, but gets the point across all the same? I really hate people that whine and complain about censorship.

I'm not saying that I don't think there are any bad examples of censorship *cough*removing the Joey punching Yami in the face scene in Yu-Gi-Oh*cough* Tharja beach image in Awakening*cough* But I do think that a majority of censorship is fine.

Exactly. Camilla(and Charlotte as well) is perfect the way she is and I'm a little sick of this constant instance that women in games have to covered, no cleavage or anything. Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to constantly complain about that?

I'm going to direct you guys to this thread of absolute stupidity because I feel I need to express how out of control some of the FE fans are. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/114533-fire-emblem-fates-conquest/71547413

I disagree, some of the stuff there shouldn't be there.

Like Soleil.

They aren't expressing art or good writing with those like Camilla, they're pandering to the Otaku. It's that simple.

I doubt any of them can say they're 100% proud of the pandering, especially when they didn't start pandering til FE:A. Fates took it to the 11 as they want that $$ and assumed that this is what fans wanted at the cost of direction hence the failure of a story.

It's what we call selling out.

Heck, MKX is getting heat for selling out for the Casual $$ at the cost of the integrity of the MK Brand with their failure that is the disgusting Kombat Pack 2.

Let's not forget in a way Awakening revived the franchise.

MODEDIT: yo don't doublepost

Edited December 8, 2015 by Integrity

[guacamole]

Exactly. Camilla(and Charlotte as well) is perfect the way she is and I'm a little sick of this constant instance that women in games have to covered, no cleavage or anything. Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to constantly complain about that?

Um, your opinion is the opposite of the one you quoted, ie not opposed to Camilla cencorship.

[twice]

MistahTwistah

8 months ago

Utters? Of all the words you could have used to describe her two bouncy friends, you chose that one?

Edited December 8, 2015 by ♡黒猫~

[astrotude]

Exactly. Camilla(and Charlotte as well) is perfect the way she is and I'm a little sick of this constant instance that women in games have to covered, no cleavage or anything. Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to constantly complain about that?

Oh my goodness, I hate it when people complain about things like that. I mean, obviously, it's a little hard for poor Camilla, because she's on a flying unit and wyverns bob up and down when flying, causing her chest to bounce and hurt, but other than that, Camilla is wearing armor that I actually really like (aside from the bottom, why is her underwear exposed???). It's actually very functional.

Charlotte on the other hand, is going to be cut in half with an axe. I don't like her exposed midriff that much (her armor isn't protecting her abdomen at all), and the only reason I like it at all is because it might give her some more ability to move around (same with Rinka).

But exposed cleavage is nothing to complain about in games, because 1) there's always some guy running around with half of or no shirt on (@ fighters and male dark mages), and 2) if a woman wants to flaunt her stuff, then by all means, let her.

Sorry if I sound misinformed in any way. I am a guy, after all.

[Time the Crestfallen]

And in all fairness to Charlotte, this is the male fighter outfit:

So with the exception of the exposed midriff, her outfit IS what a female fighter outfit would look like.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Phillius