Controversial Aspects in Fates? (Possible Censorship in NA?)

[NekoKnight]

Besides, it's not as if Western games didn't dp same thing at first. As I said in the Bioware examples, female Shepards can be openly gay in the first game while male Shepards couldn't have a gay love-interest until the last game in the trilogy, almost five years afterward (and the Asari being a mono-gendered race doesn't really excuse it, considering that they're very feminine in appearance, Asari are referred to with feminine pronouns in-game and their stages of life are called 'Maiden', 'Matron' and 'Matriarch' instead of something more gender-ambiguous). Also Zeveran, the male bisexual option in DA:O is basically just Niles without the sadism, as seen through these incriminating quotes:

I saw Zeveran as more of a flirt and a scoundrel/free love sort of guy compared to Zero who is frequently a creep that purposely unnerves people. I think DA:O handled romance/multiple sexualities the best. Some bisexuals but not too many (looking at you DA2), as well as characters you can't romance because they're just not looking for it.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I saw Zeveran as more of a flirt and a scoundrel/free love sort of guy compared to Zero who is frequently a creep that purposely unnerves people. I think DA:O handled romance/multiple sexualities the best. Some bisexuals but not too many (looking at you DA2), as well as characters you can't romance because they're just not looking for it.

So...Niles without the sadism? I mean, he's supposed to be a sadist but all he ever really does is make people feel uncomfortable for funsies. Anyway, all I'm saying is that making the flirty, free-love scoundrel the bisexual option is a lot safer than a 'normal' person who just so happens to be gay and that IS is hopefully going to do the thing Bioware did and add more gay/bisexual characters over time as well as make them more like normal people who happen to like members of the same sex (as opposed to Niles, who are both creepy and abnormal for one reason or another). Still, it's not as bad as Mass Effect in that you don't have to wait for five years and two games after the first one comes out before your male Shepard can take it up the butt (Which is wierd, since you'd think a medieval fantasy like Dragon Age would be less friendly to homosexuals than a Star Trekish Space Opera).

Edited January 20, 2016 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

(Which is wierd, since you'd think a medieval fantasy like Dragon Age would be less friendly to homosexuals than a Star Trekish Space Opera).

I didn't play much Mass Effect but wasn't the lack of homosexual pairings more about the views of the developers rather than attitudes expressed in-universe?

I'm curious as to the intentions of the developers. Some people might theorize that they were testing the waters with "safe" personality types, before adding more balanced and respectful individuals, but I think it equally likely that they just want to see how much fujoshi $$ they can get and would add more characters in the same vein as Zero and Shara. If there isn't moral outrage over negative depictions of bisexuals (not that I'm advocating for moral outrage) a part of me doubts IS will try to "fix" how they do things. I don't think a gay Shepard came about independent of negative fan feedback.

Edit: To clarify above, I think gay Shepard was finally made an option because of high fan demand/complaints rather than an epiphany on the developers' parts. If people in Japan are okay with how IS depicts bisexuals, there won't be much reason for them to change.

Edited January 20, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

I didn't play much Mass Effect but wasn't the lack of homosexual pairings more about the views of the developers rather than attitudes expressed in-universe?

I'm curious as to the intentions of the developers. Some people might theorize that they were testing the waters with "safe" personality types, before adding more balanced and respectful individuals, but I think it equally likely that they just want to see how much fujoshi $$ they can get and would add more characters in the same vein as Zero and Shara. If there isn't moral outrage over negative depictions of bisexuals (not that I'm advocating for moral outrage) a part of me doubts IS will try to "fix" how they do things. I don't think a gay Shepard came about independent of negative fan feedback.

Edit: To clarify above, I think gay Shepard was finally made an option because of high fan demand/complaints rather than an epiphany on the developers' parts. If people in Japan are okay with how IS depicts bisexuals, there won't be much reason for them to change.

That's a funny way of spelling Fujoshit

I wasn't been serious about the universes being 'safe'. It was more about jokingly expressing confusion as to why male Shepard couldn't sleep with a male character, considering that DA:O proves that they aren't afraid of depicting males boning and especially considering that female Shepard is allowed to be gay in the very first game (again, the Asari being mono-gender doesn't count, since they deliberately went for the hot, blue-skinned female look instead of a gender-ambiguous one). To be fair though, Asari in general are a train-wreck for me. The all-female race is near-universally the wise, intelligent and diplomatic race of the galaxy? Hmm.. Not to mention this actual quote from the wiki; "The Maiden stage begins at puberty and is marked by the drive to explore and experience. Most young Asari are curious and restless, and it is not uncommon for many to try their hand at dancing in bars or working as mercenaries during this time."

Yeah, unfortunate implications all around. As for IS' choice of character for same-sex relationships? I guess when I say I believe that's what they're going for, it means that I hope that's what they're going. I wouldn't mind if they have both fujoshi-bait characters alongside more respectable and 'normal' gay characters, but all this talk about Asari (who I've come to regard as an entire race of yuri-bait fanservice characters regardless of individual characterisation) is making me feel like I'm being a bit too optimistic about things.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Phillius

[ckc22]

without having them be bisexual,

I see this tossed around as a huge potential negative but I don't think it's really that much more ridiculous than the match making for most characters being "one has a penis and one has a vagina? totally marriageable" If we're going to continue with this whole "let's shoe horn in kids and make everyone able to marry everyone" then I have little problem going down this path assuming they make would-have-been kids adoptable (this is the point where people suddenly have a problem with realism in a game with dragons and magic? lol).

Personally I don't want children to return again for a bit and I'd like to see fewer supports - or at least fewer S supports - or really just fewer marriage S supports - maybe someone's sibling, parent, cousin, friend, rival, etc is their most significant relationship instead.

Edited January 20, 2016 by ckc22

[solrocknroll]

I see this tossed around as a huge potential negative but I don't think it's really that much more ridiculous than the match making for most characters being "one has a penis and one has a vagina? totally marriageable" If we're going to continue with this whole "let's shoe horn in kids and make everyone able to marry everyone" then I have little problem going down this path assuming they make would-have-been kids adoptable (this is the point where people suddenly have a problem with realism in a game with dragons and magic? lol).

Personally I don't want children to return again for a bit and I'd like to see fewer supports - or at least fewer S supports - or really just fewer marriage S supports - maybe someone's sibling, parent, cousin, friend, rival, etc is their most significant relationship instead.

I'd like a few more same-gender dateables. Especially if children don't come back, meaning that some characters could only have same gendered S-Supports.

The thing about non-Marriage S-Supports makes sense, but before it's all worked out when the game release, I can only imagine the reactions to a father and daughter or something S-Support. After all, people are conditioned to only see marriage at the end of the tunnel.

[iavasechui]

As much as I love the children mechanic, and believe me I do love it XD, I do also miss the paired endings of previous games, where you got A supports for backstory and character development and sometimes were pleasantly surprised to discover that some would fall in love and marry after the war and some that even if they did have an A support would not marry afterwards. Sain for example supports with mostly women, his support with his best friend Kent being his only male support and yet only one of those women will actually marry him after the war is over. And Rebecca can support with Raven but his only paired ending is with Lucius. Mainly using fe7 as my example here because it was my first fire emblem and dear god I love all the character in it XD

[Raumata]

When I learned that not every character could S-rank each other, and that the focus was on the personality of each character while limiting the number of spouses they'd be interested in.

It wouldn't guarantee good supports, of course, but it seemed good to me. Also, FE plots are a hit and miss with certain people.

Hmm, I guess I agree with what you all say to an extent.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I see this tossed around as a huge potential negative but I don't think it's really that much more ridiculous than the match making for most characters being "one has a penis and one has a vagina? totally marriageable" If we're going to continue with this whole "let's shoe horn in kids and make everyone able to marry everyone" then I have little problem going down this path assuming they make would-have-been kids adoptable (this is the point where people suddenly have a problem with realism in a game with dragons and magic? lol).

Personally I don't want children to return again for a bit and I'd like to see fewer supports - or at least fewer S supports - or really just fewer marriage S supports - maybe someone's sibling, parent, cousin, friend, rival, etc is their most significant relationship instead.

Being bisexual is definitely not a negative and I'm perfectly happy with having more of them in future FE games. But when you get characters like Soleil, who might as well wear a shirt with the words "I'm gay" on it, then have her possible S-Ranks all be with males, it rings a little hollow when she tries to say that she likes guys too, but girls are greatly preferred. It's as if IS were saying "Don't worry guys! There's no need to panic! She likes dicks as well. Phew, crisis averted..."

Edited January 20, 2016 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

I see this tossed around as a huge potential negative but I don't think it's really that much more ridiculous than the match making for most characters being "one has a penis and one has a vagina? totally marriageable" If we're going to continue with this whole "let's shoe horn in kids and make everyone able to marry everyone" then I have little problem going down this path assuming they make would-have-been kids adoptable (this is the point where people suddenly have a problem with realism in a game with dragons and magic? lol).

Personally I don't want children to return again for a bit and I'd like to see fewer supports - or at least fewer S supports - or really just fewer marriage S supports - maybe someone's sibling, parent, cousin, friend, rival, etc is their most significant relationship instead.

Yes, please. My ideal system would be to have S rank supports mark paired endings, romantic or otherwise. Not all human relationships need to involve boning.

It's as if IS were saying "Don't worry guys! There's no need to panic! She likes dicks as well. Phew, crisis averted..."

I may have to appropriate this for my sig. Don't worry, your Waifu is safe now.

[solrocknroll]

Whether children go or stay, I still have to have marriage and avatars so they can expand past just fujoshi bait. I'm fine with Zero, but imagine if there were better options.

Of course, FE has some good looking people, but it still doesn't stack up to Persona.

could Minato romance Akihiko that'd be great and that comes from someone who likes Yukari and Mitsuru both

especially since romancing Yosuke was stolen from us

[Time the Crestfallen]

Yes, please. My ideal system would be to have S rank supports mark paired endings, romantic or otherwise. Not all human relationships need to involve boning.

I may have to appropriate this for my sig. Don't worry, your Waifu is safe now.

She better be! Azura is best waifu and anyone who disagrees had better square the fuck up, 'cause them's fightin' words! Oboro and Hinoka are acceptable alternatives, but claiming best waifu for anyone other than those three is against Jesus.

I'm fine with all S-Rank supports being the start of a relationship (although I'd prefer that they didn't go immediately into marriage), I just want there to be less of them and limited to those with actually compatible personalities. It's fine for me if you want the Avatar to be able to waifu/husbando every playable character, that's fine, but it's a bit eyebrow-raising when Azura (who's very anti-social and has trust issues coming out the ass) can S-Rank every first-gen male. Not to mention that IS have proven in both Awakening and Fates that writing such a large number of supports is detrimental to their overall quality.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Phillius

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Whether children go or stay, I still have to have marriage and avatars so they can expand past just fujoshi bait. I'm fine with Zero, but imagine if there were better options.

Of course, FE has some good looking people, but it still doesn't stack up to Persona.

could Minato romance Akihiko that'd be great and that comes from someone who likes Yukari and Mitsuru both

especially since romancing Yosuke was stolen from us

It's a matter of taste but Tellius is Hottie Land and above anything that isn't CAPCOM games

/off topic

I really want Nintendo to show more of the localization. I know it will be over in a few weeks but it has been months of people upon people worrying about censorship.

If changing a few outfits in a game that lasts hundreds of hours caused soo much ruckus, I wonder if they still have the guts to censor or change anything in Fates.

[Time the Crestfallen]

It's a matter of taste but Tellius is Hottie Land and above anything that isn't CAPCOM games

/off topic

I really want Nintendo to show more of the localization. I know it will be over in a few weeks but it has been months of people upon people worrying about censorship.

If changing a few outfits in a game that lasts hundreds of hours caused soo much ruckus, I wonder if they still have the guts to censor or change anything in Fates.

Tellius is Hottie Land

Hottie Land

Hottie

...

So beautiful...

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Tellius is Hottie Land

Hottie Land

Hottie

...

So beautiful...

Please hide him, he is too sexy.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I'm pretty sure that Niles and Shara being the 'gay' options was just Nintendo and IS 'testing the waters' as it were. Like you said, straight(hah!) examples of gay characters are rare in Japanese media, so I believe that IS was starting of with characters that would be 'safe' and relatively uncontroversial to make romanceable by same-sex MU's (Niles being a flirty/pervy bisexual and Shara's same-sex romance being more 'If it's you, it's okay' than full-on homosexuality) and that we'll see more homosexual/bisexual characters in future installments as well as straighter (hah!) examples, as opposed to single-target homosexuality.

Let's use some Bioware games as an example. I'll also be including release dates to better emphasis my point:

[spoiler=This might be a bit long, so I'll save space]

Mass Effect 1 (Nov 16, 2007): One human romanceable character for male Shepards (Ashley Williams) and female Shepards (Kaiden Alenko) and two aliens (Liara T'Soni, a companion and Sha'ira, a Consort) of the same species who are romanceable by both. Although the Asari (the alien species in question) are a mono-gender species, they are very feminine in appearance and thus, are considered the 'gay' option for female Shepards. Male Shepards cannot have sex or start a relationship with another male. The inclusion of a 'same-sex' romance was subject to media controversy and rumours of the game being pornographic (even thought the supposed 'sex-scenes' were short and very weak-sauce). It was even banned in Singapore for some time before the game was allowed in with an M-18 rating, with the f!Shapard/Liara sex scene being the main reason for the ban.

Mass Effect 2 (Jan 26, 2010): If you import a save file, your relationship from the first game will be carried over and you can even choose to cheat on them with one of the new crew mates (which I thought was a nice touch, plenty of opportunity to develop headcanons and develop the character). There are three new romanceable options for male Shepard (Miranda Lawson, Jack and Tali'Zorah vas Neema) and for a female Shepard (Thane Krios, Jacob Taylor and Garrus Vakarian). All of them are opposite gendered. There are also three bisexual options (that don't grant the achievement for completing a romance arc, which has some pretty unfortunate implications). Two of them are Asari (one of them chooses not to start a relationship, although they express interest in both genders when flirted with and the other is a Space Succubus who can only be slept with after the final mission and gives a game-over screen) and a human female. Male Shepards still cannot have sex with or start a relationship with another male.

Mass Effect 3 (Mar 6, 2012): There are three new human characters; one gay character for male Shepard (Steve Cortez. Also, finally!), one gay character for female Shepard (Samantha Traynor) and a bisexual one (Diana Allers, who doesn't give the achievement for completing a romance arc). Kaiden Alenko, the straight female romanceable companion from the first game is now bisexual and can be romanced by a male Shepard. You can also have some romantic happenings in the Citadel DLC with an Asari (the one who chooses not to start a relationship in the second game), a human male (female Shepard only) and a male alien (who female Shepards can have a one-night stand with if no romance has been initiated yet), all of whom will not give the achievement for completing a romance arc

Dragon Age Origins (Nov, 2009. Dates vary depending on Country): One straight option for both males and females (Morrigan and Alistair respectively) and two bisexual options (Leliana, a female former assassin/spy/saboteur and Zeveran Arainai, a male former(?) assassin who's very flirty and will betray the part if his approval isn't high enough). There's also a metric fuck-ton of minor romances from origin stories, brothels and other such things with different gender requirements (mostly bisexual though, if I remember correctly) that I can't even begin to be bothered to research.

Dragon Age 2 (Mar 8, 2011- Feb 2, 2012): There are five romanceable companions; four bisexuals (Fenris and Anders are male, Isabella and Merril are female) and one who can only be married by a female Hawke (Sebastian Vael, who is chaste and therefore cannot be slept with). There are also prostitues in a brothel (including one that has a role in a quest) that can be slept with by either gender and Zeveran, who returns for one quest and can be slept with by either gender (Isabella can join for a three-way).

Dragon Age Inquisitions (Nov 18-21, 2014): Much stricter, as some characters will only be romanceable with characters of a certain race/races (Umm...Phrasing?). Pursuable romances include:

Cassandra Pentaghast: Human female who can only be romanced by a male Inquisitor.

Dorian Pavus: Human male who can only be romanced by a male Inquisitor. Will start a relationship with the Iron Bull if neither of them are romanced by an Inquisitor, as revealed through party banter.

Blackwall: Male human who can only be romanced by a female Inquisitor

Sera: Female elf who can only be romanced by a female Inquisitor

Iron Bull: Male Qunari romanceable by any Inquisitor

Josephine Montilyet: Female human romanceable by any Inquisitor

Cullen Rutherford: Human male romanceable only by human and elven female Inquisitors

Solas: Male elf romanceable only by elven female Inquisitors

TL;DR- IS and Nintendo are taking baby steps, so lets give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

All of this, tbh. Baby step are important and indicative of change. To dismiss such is actually counterproductive, and quite frankly, asinine. Real change in the world does not happen overnight. Real change in entertainment is very similar. You gotta ease people into it. IS and Nintendo even including a bi or gay option is rather progressive on their part.

Being bisexual is definitely not a negative and I'm perfectly happy with having more of them in future FE games. But when you get characters like Soleil, who might as well wear a shirt with the words "I'm gay" on it, then have her possible S-Ranks all be with males, it rings a little hollow when she tries to say that she likes guys too, but girls are greatly preferred. It's as if IS were saying "Don't worry guys! There's no need to panic! She likes dicks as well. Phew, crisis averted..."

I honestly dont understand why Soliel cant have at least one pairing with someone thats same-sex. It doesnt even have to be the avatar. In fact, i think it would be nice to have supports that end in same-sex relationships that dont include the avatar.

Tellius is Hottie Land

Hottie Land

Hottie

...

So beautiful...

Too hot for color tv! Zoinks. Tone it down in here!!!

[Time the Crestfallen]

I have to type using oven mitts now because Oliver is just to hot :3

All of this, tbh. Baby step are important and indicative of change. To dismiss such is actually counterproductive, and quite frankly, asinine. Real change in the world does not happen overnight. Real change in entertainment is very similar. You gotta ease people into it. IS and Nintendo even including a bi or gay option is rather progressive on their part.

Mhmm. Also, this is after that backlash about gays/bisexuals not being featured in Tomodachi Life or whatever it was called, so I'm glad they're making an effort and I'd rather they do things at their own pace rather than rush into things.

I honestly dont understand why Soliel cant have at least one pairing with someone thats same-sex. It doesnt even have to be the avatar. In fact, i think it would be nice to have supports that end in same-sex relationships that dont include the avatar.

Soleil should've been the same-sex marriage option instead of Shara imo. I know Soleil has some rather questionable actions in supports to put it mildly (Soleil hitting on her mother comes to mind. Just, what the fuck!) and never shuts up about 'I like girls tee hee~', but it would've been a better choice than the creepy and possessive stalker.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I really rather the female same-sex option not be a second gen, but if it had to be, Soliel is the one that made the most sense. Why they didnt go that route is really beyond me.

[Dwlr]

I really rather the female same-sex option not be a second gen, but if it had to be, Soliel is the one that made the most sense. Why they didnt go that route is really beyond me.

I'd have much rather the same sex options not cost the 2nd generation characters and to that end would prefer the 2nd gen characters have that option. Well really I'd prefer some characters that have no marriage options have the same sex options with pre-set people. I'm on the fence about the 2nd generation, but I'd prefer if the couples were pre-set or at least more limited in options like Sumia or Chrom or even if just your avatar could marry whomever so only 1 or 2 children at most are affected by player choice.

-

For fairness sake I really dislike that your S support choices can affect unit recruitment, it feels like you're being punished for your preferences.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

what i think could be cool is if there's like two conflicts, one in the first gen, and one in the second gen, that way you wouldn't be punished for S support choices (other then not getting them in time, which this should have something done about it before second gen starts).

so like instead of a 20/30 chapter game, or two/three split routes, it could just be like a 40/60 chapter long game with two generations.

tho i don't think having another battle of BBQ happening like in FE4 would be entirely good.

[Sarahtoga104]

Well looks like they changed the controversial support between Soleil and M!Kamui

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/41814/fire-emblem-fates-removes-controversial-support-conversation-in-western-regions

[Thane]

Well looks like they changed the controversial support between Soleil and M!Kamui

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/41814/fire-emblem-fates-removes-controversial-support-conversation-in-western-regions

Good. Whether or not people were exaggerating like some claim, the implications were pretty damn scary.

[Kirokan]

Well looks like they changed the controversial support between Soleil and M!Kamui

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/41814/fire-emblem-fates-removes-controversial-support-conversation-in-western-regions

I came to see if anyone posted about this too. I think we expected this after it exploded after that one post on twitter. xD... oh well! Now I can make a Japanese VS English post on it later. : )

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Well looks like they changed the controversial support between Soleil and M!Kamui

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/41814/fire-emblem-fates-removes-controversial-support-conversation-in-western-regions

excellent to hear, glad that nintendo isn't going to let the more perverted aspects remain.

"buh muh censorship"

fire emblem shouldn't be about perverted fantasy's

[BrightBow]

Well looks like they changed the controversial support between Soleil and M!Kamui

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/41814/fire-emblem-fates-removes-controversial-support-conversation-in-western-regions

I wonder if they have to rewrite that whole support from scratch. I mean, it has Kamui really going the extra mile to show what a sack of shit he is. And if you remove those things, then what's left of it?

Edited January 21, 2016 by BrightBow