Tryhard Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) At least Sylvia actually had somewhat of a reason for being dressed that way considering that she's pretty flirtatious, and likewise her being a dancer. but she must die so I can have Laylea Edited January 22, 2016 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Let's start with fanservice-y design. Here's a picture of young Tiki (most images will be links since I can't be arsed with finding the proper image extensions or whatever they're called http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/File:Tiki_artwork_Cipher_TCG.png you might not want to use the cipher artwork as a comparison, since it was made pretty recently and half the characters are in ridiculous fanservice-y posesthe new cards are not exactly accurate to the original designs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Karnage Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) now that you brought up Geneology that game has strait up brother sister incest Arvis brain washes his half sister, Deirdre marries her, and they end up having 2 kids Arvis kidnaps her and brainwashes her, personally I think that's worse than what happened to Soleil, because she can atleast recall what she did the day before EDIT:@Sunwoo I miscounted the number of kids Edited January 22, 2016 by Captain Karnage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 now that you brought up Geneology that game has strait up brother sister incest Arvis brain washes Deirdre marries her and they end up having 3 kids Don't exaggerate, they only have two Not to mention, the incest in that game is actually a legit plot point to further the plot. Kamui boinking siblings does not further the plot or discuss it in any way. So THAT one at the very least isn't exactly comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) At least Sylvia actually had somewhat of a reason for being dressed that way considering that she's pretty flirtatious, and likewise her being a dancer. but she must die so I can have Laylea Yeah, and Nowi's actually a thousand years old. Just because there's a reason for being allowed to do something doesn't change the implications. Nowi looks like a child and Sylvia probably isn't any older than 16, but you're still marrying them to fully-grown adults (sorry if that sounded rude by the way). you might not want to use the cipher artwork as a comparison, since it was made pretty recently and half the characters are in ridiculous fanservice-y poses the new cards are not exactly accurate to the original designs Yeah, that was my bad. I had two images, one was a Cipher card and one was the closest thing to official art I could find, but I couldn't get the image extensions to work and I got lazy. Here's the other one I was going to use: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/c/cc/Tiki_(FE3_Artwork).png/revision/latest?cb=20140119062730 now that you brought up Geneology that game has strait up brother sister incest Arvis brain washes his half sister, Deirdre marries her, and they end up having 3 kids Arvis kidnaps her and brainwashes her, personally I think that's worse than what happened to Soleil, because she can atleast recall what she did the day before Firstly, it doesn't really count if one of them is brainwashed into it. Secondly, Manfroy is the one who kidnaps and brainwashes her, not Arvis. Thirdly, I'm pretty sure that Arvis doesn't even know they're related. Fourthly, it's done so that a child will be born with enough Holy/Loptyr/Whatever blood that Loptyr will be able to use them as a vessel and thus, as Sunwoo said, an actual plot point and not done because waifus. Edited January 22, 2016 by Phillius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) Yeah, and Nowi's actually a thousand years old. Just because there's a reason for being allowed to do something doesn't change the implications. Nowi looks like a child and Sylvia probably isn't any older than 16, but you're still marrying them to fully-grown adults (sorry if that sounded rude by the way).I'm not arguing that, I think it's kind of silly when people try to justify it because of her supposed age. I'm saying that Sylvia does have the flirtatious personality that might mean she was more scantily clad (i.e have you seen a little girl with these before, thanks translation patch) while Nowi is just for... no reason, as far as I know. There's a reason Kaga included so many uncomfortable elements in FE4 and he said why in an interview. If you want another example, how about Nino and Jaffar? Edited January 22, 2016 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I was simply making a point about how some fans of older installments of a long-running franchise having a hate-boner for new installments is as inevitable as death and taxes. Genwunners, die-hard melee fans, OOT Fanboys and even some FE fans all seem to have the opinion that newer games have absolutely nothing to offer the franchise and that older games are objectively superior. But then I might just be overly-sensitive to such things considering that my brother is exactly like those people I mentioned (Pokemon? The original 151 are the only good Pokemon. LOZ? Anybody who likes Wind Waker should play some 'real' Zelda games. Smash? Any version other than Melee and PM is for casuals and you can probably guess who he mains. FE? POR was the last 'passable' game and anyone who likes Awakening is a Waifu-fag. He also thinks that Undertale is a flawless masterpiece and that Life is Strange has one of the best stories ever. Someone please rescue me from this circle of hell). Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that the reasons why people divide the series up into the good and bad segments isn't based only on nostalgia and a stubborn refusal to accept change. I have a lot of things I dislike about the current direction of the series, but I also like a lot of the advancements as well. I will pray for your brother so he may be delivered from his awful tastes. I'll admit that you're right about Sylvia's outfit. I'm not even going to bring up her age as a defense, since time's is hard and you gotta do whatcha gotta do. Sothe isn't really excusable though, since both Gaius and Niles are also thieves and both of them don't run around with midriffs exposed. Besides, as long as we're talking about in-universe justification, what about Tharja? She lives in Plegia (a desert), so she and every other NPC dark mage probably dress the way they do to help with the heat (anyone who thinks they could live in Plegia wearing Mage/Sage robes is a no-good f*cking liar). You'll note that Plegia has a lot of fighters and barbarians, which also run around shirtless as nameless mooks, but she's been criticised for her outfit. I don't really find midriffs to be overtly sexual but I digress. It's okay for a character to be attractive, it just has to suit their role. Sothe's outfit looks like it belongs to a thief so I'm okay with it. As for Tharja and her 'robes', there is a reason why people in extremely hot and arid climates DON'T wear what she does. No protection from the sun and no warmth at night. As for the half naked bandits, the image I get is that 1. they can't afford proper clothes because they're poor thugs and 2. they are brutish and have big muscles. It sounds like I'm handwaving/making double standards but for those characters at least, I think they are following a theme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Fighters have always looked ugly (except in Tellius, they were actually passable there I think) and barbarians have never worn shirts. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that the reasons why people divide the series up into the good and bad segments isn't based only on nostalgia and a stubborn refusal to accept change. I have a lot of things I dislike about the current direction of the series, but I also like a lot of the advancements as well. I will pray for your brother so he may be delivered from his awful tastes. Don't pray for him, pray for me so that I don't gouge my eyes and ears out next time my OU pokemon team doesn't destroys 6-0's his recreation of Red's Gold and Silver team. That's fair. Like I said, Awakening and Fates shouldn't be immune to criticism, but it shouldn't be said that they have nothing to offer the series Nohr (bu-dum tss!) should people complain about fanservice and marriage as if it's anything new to the franchise (although Fates does take it way to far, to the point where the story suffers because of it). I don't really find midriffs to be overtly sexual but I digress. It's okay for a character to be attractive, it just has to suit their role. Sothe's outfit looks like it belongs to a thief so I'm okay with it. As for Tharja and her 'robes', there is a reason why people in extremely hot and arid climates DON'T wear what she does. No protection from the sun and no warmth at night. As for the half naked bandits, the image I get is that 1. they can't afford proper clothes because they're poor thugs and 2. they are brutish and have big muscles. It sounds like I'm handwaving/making double standards but for those characters at least, I think they are following a theme. Eh, fanservice is one of those things that comes down to personal taste. On one hand Sothe dresses a bit skimpier than most other thieves in the franchise, but on the other hand it's probably just me. After all, the first thing I thought of when I saw his sprite was 'Mmm, dem abs *Slurping noises*'. I mean, I'm not gay or anything but I'd totally lick whipped cream of him if someone dared me to...or if I'm celebrating another completed playthrough...or if it's Thursday...shut up. As for Tharja, I will admit that it probably isn't appropriate for the climate, but Nohr (can't stop, won't stop!) are the heavy robes you'd expect to see on a mage. I've always thought that Micaiah's design would be good for Plegian Dark Mages. Not big, heavy robes but also covers enough skin to protect from the sun, which is ironic considering...well... [spoiler=*George Takei Voice* Ooooh Myyyyyy!] As for role, I guess it depends on whether you're referring to occupation or personality. Tharja's a mage, so you'd expect her to wear robes or something similar, but she's also a very flirty character towards the Avatar, so I guess she might try wearing something seductive to draw his/her attention. It's the same with Camilla. She's meant to be this badass warrior princess, but she also acts very sex kitten-ish at times. Again, it's probably more dependent on personal taste than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 As for Tharja, I will admit that it probably isn't appropriate for the climate, but Nohr (can't stop, won't stop!) are the heavy robes you'd expect to see on a mage. I've always thought that Micaiah's design would be good for Plegian Dark Mages. Not big, heavy robes but also covers enough skin to protect from the sun, which is ironic considering...well... [spoiler=*George Takei Voice* Ooooh Myyyyyy!] As for role, I guess it depends on whether you're referring to occupation or personality. Tharja's a mage, so you'd expect her to wear robes or something similar, but she's also a very flirty character towards the Avatar, so I guess she might try wearing something seductive to draw his/her attention. It's the same with Camilla. She's meant to be this badass warrior princess, but she also acts very sex kitten-ish at times. Again, it's probably more dependent on personal taste than anything else. When it comes to real arid climate cultures, you should be expecting more of this. [spoiler=Don't fap to this] [spoiler=I'd trade 6 camels for a wife like this] So, dressed more like mages and shamans more than Plegian Dark Mages. A character's role and personality are relevant to their outfit. Tharja is not really a seductress so much as a stalker, and she chose her outfit before meeting Robin anyway. I guess you could posit that Camilla dresses the way she does to seduce Kamui (still super creepy) but her behavior is supposed to be more doting than alluring, in my interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiance Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) Damn I never thought of it like that. That made me think in a whole new level. That is extremly weird and creepy if thats the case. Camilla why you do dis? Edited January 22, 2016 by Radiance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Fire Emblem as a series has always been changing. There are times when I feel the jump from FE13 => FE14 may have actually had fewer changes compared to changes between previous game series. I mean, that could just be my opinion and all, but I feel that a lot of people don't understand that FE has always been changing little things about its mechanics and adding/taking away things between games, and that there are some people who think that people complaining about Awakening/Fates are "against change" when sometimes their arguments make me think that THEY'RE the ones who are against change. I don't know. Fire Emblem sucks (but not as much as mafia). You know the number of changes between games is something that is countable and would be a fact and not an opinion? From a playthrough of each of the three campaigns I'm very confident in saying that FE14 has one of the greatest amounts of changes/adjustments between a single entry in the series and for a handheld sequel its no contest. This is a game that has a personal customizable base that you can move around replace one of the preparation menu and completley reconfigured the weapon system, introduced a brand new weapon type in a way that's actually fully realized along with a brand new mechanic accompanying it. Modified the weapon triangle in a way to include every weapon but Stones. Introduced a large number of new classes while redesigining every one that was carried forward from Awakening even though that means having to come up with a larger number of new skills than normal while also modifying certain ones in Awakening to give them more use. I'd sooner say there's a blinkered view of Fates game in which some are only seeing the game as only the fluff mechanics they don't like and "The direction of the series" unaware of the actual changes and the significance of them in terms of the overall series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) When it comes to real arid climate cultures, you should be expecting more of this. [spoiler=Don't fap to this] [spoiler=I'd trade 6 camels for a wife like this] So, dressed more like mages and shamans more than Plegian Dark Mages. A character's role and personality are relevant to their outfit. Tharja is not really a seductress so much as a stalker, and she chose her outfit before meeting Robin anyway. I guess you could posit that Camilla dresses the way she does to seduce Kamui (still super creepy) but her behavior is supposed to be more doting than alluring, in my interpretation. I fapped to both of those images. Can't stop, won't stop. Anyway, I always wondered why people would dress like that in the desert. Protection from sun for sure, but I always figured that you'd have a heat stroke, though in hindsight it's probably the kind of fabric they use that prevents that from happening. You learn something new every day I guess... In terms of outfit design though, it's likely that they create the outfits for characters based largely on tropes associated with said characters personality. I'm going to list some tropes associated with a certain character archetype and you let me know if that's what first comes to mind. [spoiler=Stereotypical Fire Emblem Lord] -Unusual hair colour. Normally blue, but also comes in whites, greens and other colours you see in anime -Noble origin, likely a prince -Outfit is composed mostly of clothing with a few bits of plate armour on certain bodyparts (normally shoulders and chest) and a cape that billows perpetually in the wind -Wields a sword as their weapon of choice. They'll either obtain a very powerful weapon or unlock their starting weapons true power over the course of the game -Idealistic attitude as well as a humble, friendly and approachable personality, though sometimes mixed with brutal honesty -They'll probably kill a Dragon/God/Insert supernatural monster here as the final boss -Heavily ship teased with their closest adviser/childhood friend/best friend/some combination of the above [spoiler=Treacherous Adviser] -Dresses predominantly in dark colours like black, grey and/or very dark reds and browns. Normally on wizard robes. -Black, greasy looking hair. -Skin will either be pale and waxy in complexion or grey-ish tones and an old, wrinkled, decrepit -Usually very manipulative and skilled with words. They'll also be inexplicably trusted despite looking like a medieval date-rapist -They'll use either magic or poisoned weapons (normally daggers) as their weapon of choice. -Despite being a skilled manipulator, every word that comes out of their mouth will make you want to get in a shower and never get out. -Serve as a mole or similar underling to a more important villain who will treat them like garbage. -They will verbally fellate the bigger villain every other sentence, but hold dreams of usurping their power. -They'll sometimes have a one-sided attraction for a heroine (usually a sweet and innocent one) that has a lot of rapey subtext to it [spoiler=The 'one of the guys' chick] -Gruff, no-nonsense attitude. -Has a soft-side that will come out on occasion, similar to the tsundere. -They'll be an awesome fighter, no exception. -Despite being hyped up as a badass, they'll usually have much less significance to the story than other main characters. Especially when compared to the more feminine, though not necessarily nicer or more innocent female characters. -They'll wear red, blacks and other aggressive-looking colours. Usually on heavy armour or street clothes depending on the setting. -You'll never see them wear a dress unless they're forced to by other female characters. -There will almost always be a scene where a male character talks down to them and gets their ass kicked. -They'll swear a lot and drink a lot (hence, 'one of the guys'). I could go all day with this, but I'm just gonna get to the point; they probably weren't thinking of Tharja and Camilla's design in terms of realism, environment or social status, but rather what would fit their character concept and personality based on pre-existing trends or tropes set by the series or the genre as a whole. This isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, but it's what happens. Edited January 22, 2016 by Phillius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I really don't understand what's so horrible about thinking that Awakening and Fates have nothing good to offer or that the older games are far superior. Or for that matter, thinking Red and Blue are the only good Pokemon games and that the first 151 were the only good Pokemon. I may disagree about the Pokemon examples but that doesn't mean my opinion counts for more than what I disagree with. After all, it's just opinions. Also, grouping opinions is the silliest thing to do. Saying that ' some fans of older installments of a long-running franchise having a hate-boner for new installments' doesn't make any sense. If you try to look deeper, there will always be reasons. Rarely does someone hate a game specifically because it's new. But those reasons get lost when you group together multiple fans who hold the same opinion but have different reasons for having this opinion and hence we get baseless bullshit like 'older fans hate change'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Red Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) I wasn't questioning why people sympathized with her; it was a rhetorical question used to back-up my argument. The overhauling and re-balancing of the core gameplay mechanics Awakening failed at executing properly? The return of objective variety? A quasi-solder class? No gender-restricted classes? (In the base game; screw DLC) Parts of the games soundtrack? (i.e. the stuff that's not blatantly based off of Hitomi Oumo) Yeah, I'm a bit tired of hyperbole. EDIT: Her male avatar support is the big one; pretty much everything else, however, adds to my argument of the game "disservicing it's own characters" (which I believe I've expressed to you before). An unfortunate consequence of fanservice DLC and making everybody able to support everybody of the opposite sex. not everyone thinks Fates' gameplay is still great I misinterpreted this at first, but I think you mean objective as in "goal", right? if so, I suppose it would be hard to argue that there isn't more objective variety, and it's not really a topic I've heard being discussed (for better or worse) at all, so you got me there. it doesn't seem to be too controversial. however, what I said stands: that I, as in I alone, could not think of anything ..., and I certainly wasn't trying to use hyperbole, though the bit about Saizou's animation was a bit of a joke; mentioning something that's so insignificant it's not even worth being discussed is hardly worth mentioning in the context of what I was talking about, IMO. At least chapter goals were a major complaint with FE13 so I do think that matters, which is why I ceded that at least Fates seems to have done something right there (even though due to the gimmicks and the prevalence of defeat-the-boss chapters it still hasn't sated my high expectations, kind of like how some other FE games had too many seize-the-throne chapters...) a quasi-soldier class? not even sure what you're trying to say here um, I like gender-restricted classes, and there are probably others too. reclassing in general is still controversial personally, there's pretty much only one song I can say for sure is great, I could come up with complaints for practically every other song. soundtrack mostly failed to impress for me and it's very hit or miss depending on if you like the style/approach to music what with how it handles map themes, battle themes, etc.: haven't heard too much of other opinions but I can't imagine a boring soundtrack like that would be near unanimously agreed upon to be enjoyable. then again, maybe it is. no evidence either way AFAIK, but in my mind it's up for debate, and I was only speaking for myself. don't get too riled up by little old me. =) I don't think older fans would have cared about Awakening an Fates animu...ness(?) if the plots weren't bollocks and the "S" in "SRPG" actually ment anything. It's why Conquest will be the make it or break it for me. EDIT: Don't take this post the wrong way, I liked Awakening well enough I just didn't like it as a Fire Emblem game. probably not, the game has always had roots in anime-like character design and such. just look at the hair colors. I think the biggest deal would probably have to be how characters not only look like generic anime characters but now act like them with all their tropes, and you even have boob scenes and blushing scenes and crap that make me want to cringe. I like anime a lot, mind you, but FE is one of the last places I'd want to see that crap. >_>' Sorry to hear that. Hopefully you can manage to genuinely like it for its good parts, or something. Similar deal here. I'd be cool if Awakening/Fates branched off into their own and we still on occasion got a more classic FE game in the spirit of the early 2000's instead of the last like, 4 or 5 games (or 2, depending on how you feel), but eh. lol do you know how to argue without abusing hyperbole? genuine question here A ton of stuff in this post is loaded or exaggerated. I'm also seeing a ton of "I dislike it so it's bad" which tends to be false. You seem utterly stuck to the older games and disapproving of change. As different as Persona? lol. Persona started as a spinoff, this game is the natural evolution of FE. I adore it. I love My Castle. I love skinshipping. Modern characters are so much better than the old cardboard from FE1/FE6. As you can see, Birthright is my favorite game in the series. Maybe you should stick with the older games and let people who like this stuff enjoy it. Soleil was the worst part of the game, and she's almost fixed. Fates is almost perfect. and you use a Shulk avatar how could you tarnish his name maybe, but I doubt you'd believe me anyway. not sure what hyperbole I used to garner that kind of response in the first place: was it my joke about Saizou? or my joke about how a waifu comment would get 1000 likes? in the first place, what was I even arguing? Really, I skimmed my post and didn't see much. I felt like I was just sharing my opinions on the situation. I've pretty much accepted since Awakening that few people share my opinions and quite frankly, no amount of debate on the internet is going to change a bunch of stranger's minds, so I'm more or less content with just sharing my thoughts to feel a little bit of relief from thinking about it. XP like? examples or nothing, please. I stated that the series has had one of the worst backlashes from the fandom, comparing it to Tales of, which has had a similar backlash with the most recent game, Zestiria, but with a lot of people still liking Zestiria quite a bit. I wasn't commenting on whether the hate or love was correct. I did share my personal opinions on the subject, but only in the last paragraph. And I wasn't trying to say that my opinions are right or anything, I added a very clear note saying "personal opinions incoming" so that you'd know if I said something negative about something you liked, it's nothing to get in a fit about. really, if you're going to respond, at least respond with something substantial. I don't see where I said anything akin to "I dislike it so it's bad", more like I said "I dislike it because I think it's bad". You seem utterly stuck to the older games and disapproving of change. As different as Persona? lol. Persona started as a spinoff, this game is the natural evolution of FE. I adore it. considering I gave an example of a change I liked, that seems like a shallow assessment. I'm also okay with the new approach to music, animations, and sprites, though yes, I'd like to see a return to the older approach too. sorry for having complicated views on things that are difficult to understand. and Persona starting as a spinoff has nothing to do with anything, and you have no evidence backing up the statement "this game is the natural evolution of FE", so why don't you add a "I think this game is ______ because" if you don't want to seem... well, I won't say as to not be rude. and honestly, while I could be wrong, it seems you took stuff outside the last paragraph in my post to be personal opinions, when I was just explaining the situation and how people think. I suppose it's my opinion that the older, classic FE fans are a minority because I have no evidence, but you're getting into stupid-level nit-pickiness there, and more importantly, that's not an opinion on the actual game, just like how my analogies were just that, analogies. metaphors. whatever. reading through the rest of your post... more opinions but with no indication that you yourself understand they're just that, making you seem self-centered... and... a statement trying to tell me what to do... LOL. yeah, good luck with that. you can't handle criticism of your favorite game or whatever? maybe you can get off the internet. or deal with it. or be a jerk about it. but that last one is going to get you called out and get you labeled as a fan boy/girl, which probably isn't what you want because then people won't take your opinions seriously. also, I liked FE13 and I liked the map gameplay of FE14 (just not most everything else) so fight me, lol. I'll be playing the English version of the game via the Special Edition too. you can't get me with that petty tactic where you try to lump me in with elitists who "should stick to older games"—IMO, the second worst cop out for avoiding critique with the newer games, the first being "it's optional", one of the worst/stupidest-sounding "arguments" to ever be made about a feature in a game, as far as I can remember. and I'm still a bigger FE fan than you and ain't no shitty fan service and other weeb shit going to stop me, nope. <- a joke, take it seriously even a little and you're hurting yourself That was a joke but it was uncalled for :/// Oh yeah and nice rebuttal, he basically explained in detail why he disliked it and why he thinks it should be a separate series, and you said "You are wrong, I like it it's good, it's perfect, awawawa". Also, he is not stopping anyone who likes Fates, he did not call out on any fan, he is not going to GameStop and stab fans of Fates. He is just expressing his opinion with care and love, and this is how you counter his argument? Learn how to read and stop embarassing Xenoblade fans. lolol, it's ok. I don't mind a little cheap shot. it's the internet. yeah, that was one of the worst... I can't say counterargument because I don't remember trying to argue anything, but... worst responses to a post, I guess. for different reasons than usual, I'm used to being flamed and such, but that was something differently entirely. internet never ceases to amuse, lol. <3 Xenoblade, Monolith Soft one of like three companies I can trust to make a great game more than "once in a while". ;) (thankfully between that and the "once in a whiles" I have plenty of games to play =P) Edited January 23, 2016 by Crimson Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Geargia Gateway Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I'm not arguing that, I think it's kind of silly when people try to justify it because of her supposed age. I'm saying that Sylvia does have the flirtatious personality that might mean she was more scantily clad (i.e have you seen a little girl with these before, thanks translation patch) while Nowi is just for... no reason, as far as I know. There's a reason Kaga included so many uncomfortable elements in FE4 and he said why in an interview. Link? No one has a problem with change. But no one wants someone/something they fell in love with, to not be what they fell in love with in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Link? http://fe-according-to-japan.tumblr.com/post/43745736161/kaga-interviews-page-3q1 This is what I got, but I can't remember if this was the entire answer. It specifically only mentions incest and patricide, but I feel like the general idea does extend to "it was meant to be a shitty world and these elements emphasize this". EDIT: Oh yeah, this part as well: http://fe-according-to-japan.tumblr.com/post/45919406893/kaga-interviews-p3q2 Edited January 23, 2016 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seliora Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 What you're suggesting is that, as an example, Game Freak should have kept Jynx's original color scheme in spite of it resembling blackface because that would somehow destroy Pokémon's "artistic integrity" even if it is, by all accounts, a racist caricature that black people would find offensive (and did), many of whom I imagine play the games. Including something that would be hurtful to a group of people would make the game better, regardless of whether they're considered a minority or not. Unless it would have seriously put their interests at risk, Gamefreak should have left Jynx as is. Same goes for the support conversation that got changed. I know drugging someone without their knowledge is bad, but why would it be so bad for a situation like that to be included in a work of fiction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I really don't understand what's so horrible about thinking that Awakening and Fates have nothing good to offer or that the older games are far superior. Or for that matter, thinking Red and Blue are the only good Pokemon games and that the first 151 were the only good Pokemon. I may disagree about the Pokemon examples but that doesn't mean my opinion counts for more than what I disagree with. After all, it's just opinions. Also, grouping opinions is the silliest thing to do. Saying that ' some fans of older installments of a long-running franchise having a hate-boner for new installments' doesn't make any sense. If you try to look deeper, there will always be reasons. Rarely does someone hate a game specifically because it's new. But those reasons get lost when you group together multiple fans who hold the same opinion but have different reasons for having this opinion and hence we get baseless bullshit like 'older fans hate change'. In cases where you look deeper in some cases you can end up seeing that those people aren't looking deep themselves or never cared to get a full picture. Pokemon is a good example because press further and in cases you end up finding out a number of those who believe only the 151 were good don't really know what the vast majority of the other 570 look like(It's hard enough to remember them all even as a fan) and that their reasoning tends to lean to examples like Klefki, Trubbish, Vanillite lines (ones that show up on opinion articles online). The opinion surrounding those specific ones are repeated loudly and often as possible can sometimes mask how much the people saying that stuff actually know about the thing they're criticising. Amongst many fanbases there are some longer term fans (though some newer fans) who hate change or refuse to acknowledge any advantages or improvements the later games have. You can tend to see arguments for a game to go back to an old method of something when it was only worse (e.g. the old weapon triangle w/out weapon rank bonuses) simply because it was the incarnation of it in their favourite game. There's usually is a reason like you said but it's not inconceivable that someone who’s bitter about a specific part will attempt to tar the whole game with the same brush especially if they think that part won’t go away. The idea that a new entry in a franchise has absolutely nothing good to offer over the previous ones is typically very easy to disprove usually within the parts those people overlooked or take for granted. In terms of opinions there's a world of difference between "I only like the first 151 Pokémon" and "Only the first 151 Pokémon are good". I think it's wise to be dubious of the latter types of claims especially if it comes from those who have little interest in what came afterwards(person who no longer likes Pokemon after gen 1 supposedly keeping up with the following 15+ years). In terms of Fire Emblem this would be someone who said “I just won’t bother with FE14 if its anything like FE13’s direction” and then at a later date tried to suggest Fates had absolutely nothing of value over previous entries, you wouldn’t really trust that person to be talking about every aspect of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dualazi Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Unless it would have seriously put their interests at risk, Gamefreak should have left Jynx as is. Same goes for the support conversation that got changed. I know drugging someone without their knowledge is bad, but why would it be so bad for a situation like that to be included in a work of fiction? Completely agreed on all fronts. I think part of the hang up stems from Kamui being a self-insert, and people recoil from the idea that they would do such a thing or condone it. Thing is, while you can decide whom you marry and what you look like, both Kamui and Robin have had distinct personalities and plot elements, and so I'm not really sold on how negatively this actually affects player agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immahnoob Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) I believe it's odd that people are against the Soleil conversation, to be honest. It's not a "gay conversion", Soleil is not homosexual since she cannot marry any female in-game anyway, even if she were, the conversation does not imply anything of the sorts. She's simply her father's child mostly, and a Japanese trope AKA schoolgirl "lesbianism". You'd be right in saying Kamui slipped her the powder without knowing, but you're forgetting first and foremost, what are the main gripes with something like that happening IRL (since everyone's arguing that mostly): 1. Consequences. (E.g. slipping someone drugs can bring side effects that can damage considerably (depending on the dosage), it can also damage other ways like socially) 2. Intent (E.g. "good" or "bad" intent, I'll talk about this point a bit later). In our case, what are the consequences of slipping Soleil a drug that changes male to female and female to male? Well, none. The drug isn't permanent, (Note, talking about a situation in which she does not know that she was drugged) she'll simply have "weak knees" for "cute" girls that are actually "buff" men for a short period of time. Let's take intent, from the conversation, Kamui is trying to help Soleil, and immediately tells her that he drugged her (actually, this is stupid in itself, a therapy in which she doesn't know would work better). Soleil has no issue with this, because she knows this is important to her AND Kamui, since it influences her fighting capabilities. So his intent is to do GOOD. There's also another point to bring up here, which I'll bring up later. The issue with arguing this from a real life point of view is that the drug, unlike most drugs, does not have any side effects. Soleil doesn't seem to suffer in any way, except that now she sees sexes as the reverse, and she's also aware of it because Kamui never had any intention of harming her. Her mental capacity is normal under the drug too, unlike most drugs, again. So what would the best analogy be for this? Well, if say, Kamui's intent was not "good" but "bad", at most, this would be a childish joke, since the "consequences" of his actions will most likely not harm her in any way. Since there's nothing in real life that can change perception to this degree (accurately and specifically) without any side effects either, I can't give an exact analogy, so I'll make an analogy based on the degree of annoyance and situation. It would be like slipping someone lots of salt in their drink without them knowing. What you yell after you do that is up to you, just don't go for "It's just a prank, bro.". Edited January 23, 2016 by Immahnoob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) I really don't understand what's so horrible about thinking that Awakening and Fates have nothing good to offer or that the older games are far superior. Or for that matter, thinking Red and Blue are the only good Pokemon games and that the first 151 were the only good Pokemon. I may disagree about the Pokemon examples but that doesn't mean my opinion counts for more than what I disagree with. After all, it's just opinions. Also, grouping opinions is the silliest thing to do. Saying that ' some fans of older installments of a long-running franchise having a hate-boner for new installments' doesn't make any sense. If you try to look deeper, there will always be reasons. Rarely does someone hate a game specifically because it's new. But those reasons get lost when you group together multiple fans who hold the same opinion but have different reasons for having this opinion and hence we get baseless bullshit like 'older fans hate change'. There isnt anything wrong with disliking things. But there is everything wrong with shaming other people for liking the thing you dont like. When applied to something like entertainment, Putting other people down for their opinions, is really petty and awful. And that happens a lot (and even in this very thread). No one says you cant have a hate-boner. Just keep it to yourself and dont try to push it on others. [spoiler=A Very Special Message] Edited January 23, 2016 by Loki Laufeyson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckc22 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Soleil is not homosexual since she cannot marry any female So gay people didn't exist until 2001? Edited January 23, 2016 by ckc22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immahnoob Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) So gay people didn't exist until 2001? Of course they did, but you're ignoring all the homosexual options that Fates has if you're going to use that argument. At least, if it's the argument I believe you're using. Edited January 23, 2016 by Immahnoob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyainou Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Of course they did, but you're ignoring all the homosexual options that Fates has if you're going to use that argument. At least, if it's the argument I believe you're using. 2 whole gay options in a cast of ~70. Oh boy. Not that I'm not grateful, but. Oh boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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