Archers: do they really suck?

[Shadow Mir]

Yeah, enemies might be slightly stronger in FE6 but you still have units like Alance, Dieck, Miledy, Percival etc. who can still use Hand Axes and/or Javelins to ORKO all of the unpromoted mooks that FE6 throws at you, even in the game's final chapters. On the other hand, unpromoted enemies disappear completely as soon as Chapter 17 in Awakening.

Still, due to lower accuracy across the board, being lousy with Wyvern Riders and having actual competent bow-users, Bows are a bit better in FE6 than FE7 or 8.

The wyvern riders, though I didn't mention them, were another reason why I argued bows being better in FE6 than you gave them credit for - regardless, I think the aforementioned power and accuracy issues mean equipping a javelin or hand axe and throwing a unit into a sea of enemies expecting everything in range to die come enemy phase is not nearly as viable a strategy in FE6.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Levant Colthearts

[Sartek]

Archers, as in bow-locked classes, are barely useful in most FEs. Why take something that kill an enemy every player phase when any other classes will do the same AND murder everything on enemy phase? Especially when you have mages like Pent for example.

Other classes like Nomads that have another weapon type, are alright.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Sartek

[Alastor15243]

Why take something that kill an enemy every player phase when any other classes will do the same AND murder everything on enemy phase?

Because, as I said in the OP, if you are in a position where that strategy, just having something murder everything on enemy phase, is remotely viable, you are playing in a situation that requires little to no strategy at all, such as an easier mode, where character tiers are meaningless except for who can break the game the fastest. The more player phase matters, the more useful archers become.

[Sartek]

Except in Lunatic-like level of difficulty, no strategy is needed at all. And even then, the only thing that archers have over mages is 3-range with the longbow.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Sartek

[Alastor15243]

Except in Lunatic-like level of difficulty, no strategy is needed at all.

Well actually to get technical, you have it backwards. Lots of strategy is required in Fire Emblem Awakening's Lunatic/Lunatic+ mode. What isn't required much of is tactics, the short-term decisions. Long-term planning is essential to surviving Lunatic+, less so on turn-to-turn tactics (though there's still some depending on the route you take).

Edited January 19, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Sartek]

Well actually to get technical, you have it backwards. Lots of strategy is required in Fire Emblem Awakening's Lunatic/Lunatic+ mode.

Which I never denied. I said that in anything easier you don't need it.

[Mekkah]

I think bow users in general are bad in games where units can handle themselves on EP, and that includes: FE1, FE3, FE4, FE5, FE7, FE8, FE9 and to an extent FE6 (once your units have grown to the point where enemy hit rates are trivial) and FE10 (GMs and part 4). So that's a lotta games where they kinda suck. Generally, the earlygame archers set a poor example because on top of their inability to enemy phase they also have stats. The obligatory midgame prepromote Snipers tend to be pretty good.

In games where enemies are more threatening, like FE11, FE12 and FE13 on higher difficulties, they tend to be really good though.

[Espinosa]

I don't think Snipers are any good in FE6 either; the bow users that matter are all on a mount.

Takumi might be the first legit archer in the series (not counting New Mystery where Snipers have a ton of utility), but he's also kinda mounted (and even a flier). Takumi, you put the fire in me!

[BeMine96]

I don't really use archers that much and haven't used one in Awakening. I don't think they suck THAT bad and I agree with the others that it does depend on the game.

For example, in RD, my Rolf was so strong and I used him in every chapter. He's just strong. I heard people saying archers/bows suck in RD but based on my Rolf, I didn't think so.

I also used at least one archer in FE6 and FE7. I don't think they were bad, they were good in helping some units in danger.

[BrightBow]

The thing with Archers is that they have significant weaknesses but no actual strengths. They have no enemy phase and get less EXP. But in return they get what exactly?

Just about everyone can use ranged attacks. Mages are particular good at it. Also, bows are the least varied weapon category. They usually only get the basic stuff like Iron, Steel, Silver, Killer and Brave that you find in every weapon category. There is also the Longbow, which are rare, expensive and not that good anyway.

Gaiden's archers were good because no one else came close to 5 range. They had actual utility there. They are also fine in TRS since there are quite a few obstacles that make bows particular effective and they have a bit of a greater variety on weapons.

But in every other situation, good archers are only good because of the character using the class, not because of anything that the class itself offers.

Edited January 19, 2016 by BrightBow

[Alastor15243]

Which I never denied. I said that in anything easier you don't need it.

oh, I missed the point of the "except". I thought it was something like "except not."

Anyway, what's the point of ranking units for how easily they break the game on the lower difficulties? Their performance on the higher difficulties is the only thing that really matters to deciding whether or not they're good.

[Espinosa]

oh, I missed the point of the "except". I thought it was something like "except not."

Anyway, what's the point of ranking units for how easily they break the game on the lower difficulties? Their performance on the higher difficulties is the only thing that really matters to deciding whether or not they're good.

Didn't you say it yourself that if strategy matters more than tactics, the decision to snowball MU's growths is wiser than, say, continuous and ritual use of Virion to chip down enemies while avoiding their counters?

[Alastor15243]

Didn't you say it yourself that if strategy matters more than tactics, the decision to snowball MU's growths is wiser than, say, continuous and ritual use of Virion to chip down enemies while avoiding their counters?

I'm talking about other games in the series, not specifically Awakening's Lunatic+. And even then, the choice to make MU an archer/sniper has merit since bows are basically the only way, aside from overwhelming power or a high crit build, to be attacked by a counter-possessing unit and not die.

Furthermore, Apotheosis is easily the best demonstration of my point about archers/snipers, since the prevailing strategy is to avoid the enemy phase entirely, making snipers no worse, and in fact due to 3 range somewhat better, than other units.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Espinosa]

Making MU a bow user in Awakening takes a lot of work though, and deprives you of an enemy phase juggernaut because of how Veteran works. Surely you can have anyone else function in the same way?

Plus you can just annihilate said Counter units with tomes from 2-range (and slowing down in order to do it is probably still going much faster than you would with a bow user).

[Moblin Major General]

Good Bow users: Innes, Rath, Virion, Louise, any Hunter or Horsemen in FE11/12

Average bow users: Neimi, Wil, Gordin, Ulster

Bad Bow users: Norne, Midir, Rebecca, Wolt, Dorothy

[Gradivus.]

Making MU a bow user in Awakening takes a lot of work though, and deprives you of an enemy phase juggernaut because of how Veteran works. Surely you can have anyone else function in the same way?

Plus you can just annihilate said Counter units with tomes from 2-range (and slowing down in order to do it is probably still going much faster than you would with a bow user).

I'm pretty sure he's talking about L+, 30% of all enemies have counter there and this along with the Luna+ skill makes pure EP juggernauts require tons of caution to use, and a unit has a high chance of dying if they counterkill one or two enemies using counter. That's pretty much the only mode of Awakening where bow users are useful, though although I maintain that Virion helped me save 2 or 3 turns in my LTC so far.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Gradivus.

[sirmola]

Snipers tend to be good in FE4, due to good stats, good skills (pursuit being a class skill helps), and 2/3rds of them having an effective 40 might bow. There are also a lot of powerfull fliers, and effective damage is really good. The only issue is the lack of horse. The bow knights are questionable though.

Edited January 19, 2016 by sirmola

[Shadow Mir]

I don't think Snipers are any good in FE6 either; the bow users that matter are all on a mount.

Takumi might be the first legit archer in the series (not counting New Mystery where Snipers have a ton of utility), but he's also kinda mounted (and even a flier). Takumi, you put the fire in me!

Who's to say that isn't for other reasons though (like Fates' aforementioned noifing of 1-2 range weapons)?

Anyways, I know that stats are commonly brought up against archers, though the real issue with them stat wise is specializing in skill, which hasn't done a very good job of staying relevant as a stat compared to other stats.

[Alastor15243]

How exactly are 1-2 range weapons nerfed in fates? I looked at them on the wiki and I didn't see anything like that.

[Elieson]

That's because the Wiki is not the optimal place for Fire Emblem related information: Serenes Forest is.

[Alastor15243]

That's because the Wiki is not the optimal place for Fire Emblem related information: Serenes Forest is.

Oh. That's... actually pretty cool honestly. At the very least it lowers the arbitrary advantage that lances and axes have been given over swords in nearly every Fire Emblem game but 10 and 4. Seriously, why did they decide swords couldn't have readily available 2-range weapons?

[Knight]

What would a 2-range sword be other than the magic swords we've had?

[Robert Stewart]

RD has 1-2-range physical swords.

aesthetically they're not that different from wind swords/other magic swords but they do physical damage.

at least if I recall correctly.

Edited January 19, 2016 by shinpichu

[Skynstein]

Soeaking of Awakening the reason Virion is bad is less Archer class and more his horrible reclasses that barely give him useful skills if any.

dondon's opinion on growth is valid. Growth is reliant on RNG, base is not. If you have bad luck and poor growth in difficulty like Lunatic (where every stat point matters early game) chances are you won't be any useful later on.

[Shadow Mir]

What would a 2-range sword be other than the magic swords we've had?

Fates does have 1-2 range physical swords, but... yeah.