Germany and the Refugee Crisis

[tuvarkz]

A video doesn't do it for me. I want statistics here, none of which Brietbart provided.

I believe I already brought up statistics in another thread about rape in Sweden. I'd have to specifically find stats on other violent crime, however.

Just a bit of advice: Find news sources who support your views (political/religious/economic/whatever). Find news sources that go against those views. Find VERY BIASED news sources, regardless of which way they lean. Then, draw a conclusion.

Every news source will have a bias. If you want the true story, you're going to have to read between a lot of lines. With a politically-charged issue like this, you'll definitely want to see every last angle there is!

I generally do (Honestly, this an issue that comes up pretty often because Peruvian politics are pretty different from US/Euro ones).

I generally see what the radical left writes up, center-left, right, and ultra-right sources. (Although then, I find that the radical left is crazy but the ultra-right occasionally makes a point amongst the stupidity that appears).

[eclipse]

Although then, I find that the radical left is crazy but the ultra-right occasionally makes a point amongst the stupidity that appears).

That's exactly it.

There's going to be bias all over the place, in regards to the refugee crisis, and the behaviors of a group of Arabs which started on New Year's Eve (might've been earlier, but that's when it really hit the news). By seeing how those Arabs are described, you can tell where on the German political scale your sources are.

[Snowy_One]

Oh, no doubt. The majority of people, however, are not the latter.

I disagree as the definition of group 3 is that they put no effort into learning about the culture they are in, abiding by its laws, or anything of the sort. They haven't 'left' their homeland, just changed their geographical location. It's just that the people who are doing all this crap are the ones getting the headlines and not Joe Shmoe who hates Germany but hates being shot at even more.

[Life]

I'm going to say something that is very unpopular but y'all need to understand that I have personal baggage when it comes to Arabs.

I think the Arabs (not Muslims, Arabs) need to get the fuck out of Europe and North America and return to the Middle East to sort that shit out. If it means more wars with us, it'll suck but it'll cause much fewer problems.

I'm completely serious. They fuck up their own countries, they do the same to others and still cry victim. You can say that it's not their fault because look at the war-torn countries they came from. I say that they deserve it if you look at their history. Since about the 1800s, very few Arabic nations have contributed anything positive to society with the exception of oil.

Am I missing something here? Did Syria and Lebanon give anything to the world in the last hundred years that was meaningful? No. They simply let their respective countries regress to the Middle Ages by equating state and religion. This might have worked in a world that felt this way back then but this is a modern world where the vast amount of countries are not ruled by religion primarily.

As for the argument of these people being human beings, it doesn't fucking matter. A lot of them act like animals rather than human beings. And yet the Arabs are the only people in the world where we have to find excuses for their behavior.

I know that I'm going to ostracized for saying that they should return to the Middle East but my people (Jews) have been treated like that all through history and are still getting that treatment. Right now, we're being told to leave "Palestine" because we stole it from the poor Arabs (which completely ignores history). You know what that message was in the 1930s? Jews, leave Europe and go to Palestine because you're not wanted here.

I don't get it. I really don't. Why the fuck should I be expected to offer hospitality and refuge to a group of people who metaphorically (and literally) spit in my face when the rest of the world will refuse to do the same for me?

I get that I'm making this argument a bit about myself but these are the thoughts that go through my head whenever I discuss this. As a Jew, I'm sick and tired of being treated like a punching bag. I want someone else to take my spot for once and the Arabs are giving you more than enough reasons as for why.

[CyborgZeta]

Not really related to the refugee/migrant situation per say, but it is silly to see European leaders do stuff like this.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35413384

It'd be different if they were visiting Iran itself, but this is their own country!

It reminds me of the incidents with the Danish and Charlie Hebdo cartoons. Freedom of speech means being able to criticize or make fun of religion, yet when Islam is the target there's controversy. What's up with that?

Edited February 4, 2016 by CyborgZeta

[Yojinbo]

Alright, let's assume he's a child of migrants (or grandchild, etc)-This would mean that the problem is not just immigrant Muslims having a disproportionately high crime rate, but the second generation onwards still presenting this issue.

Can't cite any sources but from what I've gathered an increasing crime rate is actually moreso the problem of the second and third generation of immigrants, rather than the first. "First generation" immigrants often migrated because they were needed as workers so they'd usually find jobs and be integrated enough to the point where they wouldn't cause any significant trouble. That seems to be the case for at least the german-speaking countries. Can't make any claims about France, UK or Benelux.

Am I missing something here? Did Syria and Lebanon give anything to the world in the last hundred years that was meaningful? No. They simply let their respective countries regress to the Middle Ages by equating state and religion.

Not sure about Lebanon [or how you'd define 'meaningful' but that's neither here nor there right now] but until the so-called "Arab spring" Syria, while being a dictatorship all the same, wasn't in that bad a shape. Things really started to become ugly when Saudi-Arabia started to support all kinds of fucked-up Jihadist groups and ruined the whole country. So when you talk about "Arabs" I'd prefer to call it the "influence of Saudi-Arabia", which goes beyond the middle east and is the cause of many problems.

Not really related to the refugee/migrant situation per say, but it is silly to see European leaders do stuff like this.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35413384

It'd be different if they were visiting Iran itself, but this is their own country!

It reminds me of the incidents with the Danish and Charlie Hebdo cartoons. Freedom of speech means being able to criticize or make fun of religion, yet when Islam is the target there's controversy. What's up with that?

Fwiw I've never actually heard of anybody who agrees that the statues should be covered up. It's almost universally seen as a quite pathetic move to my knowledge.

[blah the Prussian]

I believe I already brought up statistics in another thread about rape in Sweden. I'd have to specifically find stats on other violent crime, however.

I generally do (Honestly, this an issue that comes up pretty often because Peruvian politics are pretty different from US/Euro ones).

I generally see what the radical left writes up, center-left, right, and ultra-right sources. (Although then, I find that the radical left is crazy but the ultra-right occasionally makes a point amongst the stupidity that appears).

Yes, and someone else provided an explanation as to why rape stats in Sweden are unreliable. Did you read that?

To Life, come on, man, you should know that Syria under Assad is Fascist, not Islamist.

[tuvarkz]

Those explanations had already been mentioned in the article, as I explained in this post:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=56082&page=30#entry4184691

The allegations that the statistics are overinflated are proven to be wrong, or at least the effect of the different rape laws cannot explain such a massive increase.

[Life]

To Life, come on, man, you should know that Syria under Assad is Fascist, not Islamist.

You can't honestly tell me that religion doesn't rule in Syria, even before the civil war. In the past thirty years alone, almost every country in the Middle East (Iran/Iraq/Lebanon/Syria/Egypt...) have regressed culturally. Sure, some haven't but those are the Gulf States that have money to burn. But with the exception of Jordan, all of my neighbours now resemble barbarians rather than a current society.

[Skynstein]

My opinion is simple: tighter control and no mercy against anyone who breaks the law. They are the guests, not the hosts!

Merkel wants the immigrants because of declining birth rates in Germany and disinterest in heavy labor (read: she wants them as mules), but in the midst of this recession, accepting so many people whom you must somehow fund to grant them basic human rights could lead to economic collapse. She knows this and that's why she's been pushing for the other EU members to accept a bigger share of the immigrants. And she's right. When David Cameron and the Eastern European leaders refuse to do so it means they're being traitorous to the very concept of the EU and only want the goodies that come out of it (free trade, free travel), especially Poland, Hungary and countries like those.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Cerberus87

[Life]

My opinion is simple: tighter control and no mercy against anyone who breaks the law. They are the guests, not the hosts!

Merkel wants the immigrants because of declining birth rates in Germany and disinterest in heavy labor (read: she wants them as mules), but in the midst of this recession, accepting so many people whom you must somehow fund to grant them basic human rights could lead to economic collapse. She knows this and that's why she's been pushing for the other EU members to accept a bigger share of the immigrants. And she's right. When David Cameron and the Eastern European leaders refuse to do so it means they're being traitorous to the very concept of the EU and only want the goodies that come out of it (free trade, free travel), especially Poland, Hungary and countries like those.

WELL HOW DARE THEY GIVE A SHIT MORE ABOUT THEIR OWN COUNTRIES THAN GERMANY'S WELLBEING AND THE CONCEPT OF THE EU!

I hope you understand the absurdity of your statement. The only thing that should be on David Cameron's (and the entire British Parliament too) mind is the well being of... England, not Germany. In addition, the EU is a glorified trade agreement but it does not mean that Germany and England are sisters and should be forced to live in the attic together when one of them can afford their own mansion.

Don't throw the word "traitor" around if you don't fully understand the concept. If Cameron was putting Germany first rather than his own nation, then he'd be a traitor.

[blah the Prussian]

Those explanations had already been mentioned in the article, as I explained in this post:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=56082&page=30#entry4184691

The allegations that the statistics are overinflated are proven to be wrong, or at least the effect of the different rape laws cannot explain such a massive increase.

Once again, the solution is better punishment. It's really quite simple. Would you propose Sweden start deporting people instead?

You can't honestly tell me that religion doesn't rule in Syria, even before the civil war. In the past thirty years alone, almost every country in the Middle East (Iran/Iraq/Lebanon/Syria/Egypt...) have regressed culturally. Sure, some haven't but those are the Gulf States that have money to burn. But with the exception of Jordan, all of my neighbours now resemble barbarians rather than a current society.

I would say that the Baathists were using it as a tool, in contrast to Iran and Saudi Arabia, where religion uses the state as a tool. Of course, this isn't all that relevant to the extent to which the Middle East has regressed politically, because, you know, Fascism, but there is a difference. Also, as to your EU point, if Britain, Hungary or anyone else don't want the responsibilities that come with the EU, they should leave and deny themselves the benefits.

[Yojinbo]

You can't honestly tell me that religion doesn't rule in Syria, even before the civil war. In the past thirty years alone, almost every country in the Middle East (Iran/Iraq/Lebanon/Syria/Egypt...) have regressed culturally. Sure, some haven't but those are the Gulf States that have money to burn. But with the exception of Jordan, all of my neighbours now resemble barbarians rather than a current society.

I think you got a couple of things backwards here. The only reason the Gulf States haven't regressed culturally is because there wasn't anything to regress from in the first place - countries like Saudi-Arabia and Jemen never really progressed beyond middle-age status. Countries like Syria, Lebanon and Iraq on the other hand are former colonies that regress under the influence of the SA-Iran rivalry.

Also, as to your EU point, if Britain, Hungary or anyone else don't want the responsibilities that come with the EU, they should leave and deny themselves the benefits.

I don't have the slightest glimpse of sympathy for Hungary [or Poland for that matter] but can you really blame Cameron for what he's doing? He's trying to get the best deal for himself and if the EU lacks the backbone to oppose it in any way it's their fault, not his. And let's not forget that Britain is one of the biggest money spenders in the EU. As much as I dislike him I don't think it's fair to compare him to dudes like Orban. If it weren't for the fact that Hungary [and once again, Poland] was one of the biggest receivers of EU funds they'd probably have a civil war over there.

[blah the Prussian]

I think you got a couple of things backwards here. The only reason the Gulf States haven't regressed culturally is because there wasn't anything to regress from in the first place - countries like Saudi-Arabia and Jemen never really progressed beyond middle-age status. Countries like Syria, Lebanon and Iraq on the other hand are former colonies that regress under the influence of the SA-Iran rivalry.

I don't have the slightest glimpse of sympathy for Hungary [or Poland for that matter] but can you really blame Cameron for what he's doing? He's trying to get the best deal for himself and if the EU lacks the backbone to oppose it in any way it's their fault, not his. And let's not forget that Britain is one of the biggest money spenders in the EU. As much as I dislike him I don't think it's fair to compare him to dudes like Orban. If it weren't for the fact that Hungary [and once again, Poland] was one of the biggest receivers of EU funds they'd probably have a civil war over there.

Oh, Cameron isn't nearly as bad as Orban; he isn't trying to propagandize the history taught in schools. And yeah, the EU really should be putting its foot down more; it may be that the experiment has failed.

[Moblin Major General]

WELL HOW DARE THEY GIVE A SHIT MORE ABOUT THEIR OWN COUNTRIES THAN GERMANY'S WELLBEING AND THE CONCEPT OF THE EU!

I hope you understand the absurdity of your statement. The only thing that should be on David Cameron's (and the entire British Parliament too) mind is the well being of... England, not Germany. In addition, the EU is a glorified trade agreement but it does not mean that Germany and England are sisters and should be forced to live in the attic together when one of them can afford their own mansion.

Don't throw the word "traitor" around if you don't fully understand the concept. If Cameron was putting Germany first rather than his own nation, then he'd be a traitor.

What he's saying is that the Eastern Bloc of the EU is only in it for themselves, therefore doing a disservice to the concept of a European Union. Although, the EU is much more like a Confederacy than a Union. If they were a true Union, The only borders that would exist would be with Morocco, Turkey, and the former Soviet Socialist Republics. And treason only refers to waging war against a country in which you associate, so even if Cameron had eyes on the EU's well being, he wouldn't be viewed as a traitor. I don't agree with him because he's a Tory, because if I lived in the UK, I would Labour.

[Excellen Browning]

@life/jim: and you've obviously lived in Iran/Turkey/Iraq/Arabia in general for years and years. So you really know these things, right?

I mean lets not forget that there's tensions between fundies and more moderate folks in your beloved Israel. And a bunch of eastern bloc countries, like Poland. And America. And any country, really, although in the case of Holland there's very few fundies and the thing is one sided.

So I don't know where you got the whole cultural regression thing from. Also, to note, for clarity, no, the middle east has not regressed culturally over the last 200 years. You literally pulled that out of your ass.

[blah the Prussian]

Well, I would argue that it regressed when all the monarchies were abolished, but that has little to do with religion, except in the case of Iran.