Has anyone pieced this together? *spoilers*

[Czar_Yoshi]

It's an assumption I'm making about what Morgan would assume, I guess. If you were the kind of person who likes keeping backups, knew you had amnesia, and had a backup you didn't remember making, wouldn't you assume you made it too?

Morgan does remember Robin, though definitely not everything about them- if, say, Morgan remembered things about Robin's interaction with the rest of the world, then Morgan could tell about the world from that, but they can't. They probably remember Robin and what they were like, what they looked like, how they acted etc, but not any explicit things they did.

The closest precedent for Robin is FE4 Julius, though it's still extremely unlikely they worked exactly the same way. As I see it, there are two parts to Grima: the vessel, and the mind/power. Robin's blood is sufficiently concentrated (or something) to be Grima's vessel, but there's still some outside part of Grima- probably linked to that massive dragon- that's different. Otherwise, the whole thing about sealing Grima away (but allowing Robin to live) vs killing it and letting Robin die would make no sense. Either way, after the good ending it's fairly clear that Grima can't come back no matter what, blood or not.

The law of conservation of detail applies to any work of fiction. For that matter, it applies to nonfiction as well (it wouldn't be very relevant to talk about wetland restoration in a documentary on lunar landings, for example). Any work that intends to convey a story, basically. As for it not being presented to every player... Games with extra content just tend to work that way. As a reward for exploration and delving into optional content, you're frequently rewarded with bits of lore and backstory thrown in. It's certainly not forced on you, and the ability to kill FP Morgan is probably part of why that is. It's worth mentioning that Awakening's style revolves around staying out of the player's way and letting them fill things in with their own headcanons- you're obviously not supposed to and even can't get all the supports in one playthrough, for example. So if you want to piece together the bad future and Morgan's backstory, the stuff you need to do it is out there, and if you don't care, or are happy with your own explanation, it stays out of your way and even leaves itself open to interpretation in the event that you do find it. The devs were almost definitely intending to imply, to people who cared, that Morgan came from FP. They definitely weren't trying to make sure everyone knew about it.

[Jotari]

Yeah, but if you're assuming Morgan was given the book in the future, there's no reason why it wouldn't be the FP future- assuming it was a different one answers nothing, adds more complexity and isn't implied anywhere.

I don't think this is a logical train of thought at all. It would make more sense to assume that if Morgan was given the book in the future, there's no reason why it wouldn't be Lucina's future, since that's the main alt timeline of the game and not a DLC side story. Yet this idea is refuted multiple times in the game (though reinforced in his sibling convo with Lucina, go figure >.>) because Robin believes he doesn't come from a ruined world. Morehowever assuming it's the FP Timeline just causes way more problems than it solves. Namely Morgan remembers Robin as a Tactician and not an evil dragon god and also how Morgan would even get to Chrom's timeline with the Awakening being used to defeat Grima instead of time travelling. I guess it's possible Grima was actually a surprisingly good parent who treated the Morgans nicely, Morgan somehow found a way to time travel and the amnesia changed his/her basic personality from serious to quite loopy but those are some pretty big assumptions. Especially since on reviewing the Future Past script Grima does imply he/she put Morgan through some trauma. I think Occams Razor, an the implication IS expected people to have, suggests that Morgan comes from a peaceful timeline and that giving out books to Morgans is something Robins simply do. The Law of Conservation of Detail is still adhered without even considering Morgan's origins since the purpose of the book giving in the scene is that it reminds Morgan of a time when his parent was Robin and not Grima, this being the primary reason why the unit retreats.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I don't think this is a logical train of thought at all. It would make more sense to assume that if Morgan was given the book in the future, there's no reason why it wouldn't be Lucina's future, since that's the main alt timeline of the game and not a DLC side story.

No reason? How about Morgan flat-out not being able to exist in some scenarios (3rd gen, spotpass six)? That's a pretty big reason. Also, we see the book being given in FP, which is clearly not Lucina's future. The convos involving Morgan having the book are DLC too, Morgan's backstory is entirely added in the DLC, it makes sense that s/he'd be from the timeline added by the DLC as well.

Yet this idea is refuted multiple times in the game (though reinforced in his sibling convo with Lucina, go figure >.>) because Robin believes he doesn't come from a ruined world. Morehowever assuming it's the FP Timeline just causes way more problems than it solves. Namely Morgan remembers Robin as a Tactician and not an evil dragon god and also how Morgan would even get to Chrom's timeline with the Awakening being used to defeat Grima instead of time travelling.

FP Morgan also remembers Robin from before they became Grima, and clearly much more fondly than the Grima variant. Morgan likely got sent back the same way Chrom's party does at the end of FP3- semi-lucid Grima did it. Grima probably wiped Morgan's memory as well, and may have deliberately done so to leave only the positive image of Robin remaining.

I guess it's possible Grima was actually a surprisingly good parent who treated the Morgans nicely, Morgan somehow found a way to time travel and the amnesia changed his/her basic personality from serious to quite loopy but those are some pretty big assumptions. Especially since on reviewing the Future Past script Grima does imply he/she put Morgan through some trauma.

Robin changed. When the Morgans were born, Robin was a great parent. This is what FP Morgan remembers, and it's what amnesia Morgan remembers. Grima is not a nice parent, exploits the Morgans, and they only remain loyal to Grima due to the ghost of what Robin once was.

I think Occams Razor, an the implication IS expected people to have, suggests that Morgan comes from a peaceful timeline and that giving out books to Morgans is something Robins simply do. The Law of Conservation of Detail is still adhered without even considering Morgan's origins since the purpose of the book giving in the scene is that it reminds Morgan of a time when his parent was Robin and not Grima, this being the primary reason why the unit retreats.

That would require a fourth, peaceful, timeline, the book-giving scene in FP to go nowhere, there to be a peaceful timeline book-giving (and an additional act of time travel to do it), a reason for only one Morgan's memory to be wiped and them sent to a different world, etc. None of this is required assuming Morgan simply came from FP. There is no way all that extra stuff is simpler than what's given ingame.

Finally, you mention multiple times that Robin hypothesizes that Morgan came from a peaceful timeline. Here's the actual script from the end of Par.12:

One possible future is in ruins, yes. But you may hail from another path.

And here's Morgan's ending (the relevant bit doesn't change based on pairing or gender):

Later, scholars would speculate that he/she had come from a different future than the other children.

Neither of those mention anything about it being a peaceful future, just a different one. And that lines up perfectly with Morgan coming from FP.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Czar_Yoshi

[Jotari]

1. I'm not saying that Morgan comes from Lucina's timeline. That's why my next point cited the fact that the game refutes the idea. I just presented it as the logical deduction when the facts you have are that Morgan comes from another time, Lucina comes from another time, Morgan was given a book in another time. The train of logic suggests Morgan comes from Lucina's time. It's not true but when you have these facts alone it is the logical choice. Likewise if you substitute Lucina comes from another time with The Future Past is another time then it makes just as much logical sense, but is no more true.

2. Morgan remembers Robin as being noticeably older than current game Robin and Morgan's familiarity with Robin suggests that unlike the other children, Morgan actually knew their parent in their recent past. This does not work with Grima being the most recent version of Robin Morgan is familiar with. It is possible Grima wiped Morgan's memory of his influence and sent Morgan back in time, but I call that a theory and I don't believe it's the implication the designers were expecting people to take from the scenario.

3. The book giving scene doesn't go nowhere. It's purpose is felt immediately as it's the thing that prompts Morgan to leave the map. This has an effect both on gameplay and narratively as it allows the player to finish the map and spare the Morgan's life.

4. Morgan is sceptical the future he/she came from is in ruins. True, memory loss is a factor here but per the law of conservation of detail, why would they have the line, "The future I came from is in ruins... You're sure about that?", if it wasn't meant to be the implication they expect people to take. The line easily could have been substituted with "The future I came from is in ruins...I still don't remember" or simply "The future I came from is in ruins..." but they went with something that causes Morgan to actively question the case and leads to Robin speculating it's not. The only way I can see it resolved to fit the situation you're suggesting is that initially they had no plans for Morgan's origin and then retconned it when making the future past but if that were the case then I think they would have made it more obvious, showing a scene with Morgan in FP3 or maybe highlighting the fact that Morgan has two copies of the same book in HHS instead of it just being a throw away line. Also for this case to be true it would mean one book is noticeably older than the other.

I'm not claiming that your idea is impossible. To me it just doesn't seem like the implicit truth that the Future Past wants us to think. As far as theories go I like it though (it's a great explanation for Morgan's childish personality, not that one needs to justify such a personality). Trying to connect other DLC episodes to to the Future Past is cool too. Though I don't think every DLC chapter can be connected (I don't see why FP Aversa would be so concerned with Old Hubba) and the idea we're meant to take from the Outrealm Gates is that there are many worlds out there with many possibilities.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Jotari

[Czar_Yoshi]

1. You're not saying that Morgan came from Lucina's timeline, yet your train of logic suggests that Morgan did come from Lucina's timeline, but then you present evidence against Morgan coming from Lucina's timeline? What exactly is your position, then?

2. I sure hope Morgan remembers Robin as being older than the one in the present. Morgan hasn't been born yet in the present, Morgan should have no way to remember this Robin. And yes, it definitely is just a theory. If the devs hadn't wanted it to be ignored, it would be presented up front and not buried under a pile of optional convos within optional maps.

3. Narratively, giving the book isn't required for those things to happen. I'm talking about the specific act of giving the book, not the convo as a whole.

4. I'm not extremely fond of getting into interpretations of the tone behind individual lines (events in them, sure, but not tone). You have to extrapolate a bit too much for comfort to get anything out of them, there's always a danger something could have been lost in translation, maybe the dude writing it wasn't even paying attention etc. But for the sake of debate, if all Morgan remembers is a smiling happy Robin, that wouldn't be very indicative of a bad future, so they'd be justified in being skeptical (beyond the initial premise of coming from the future at all, which should be a bigger shocker).

Oh, there's no way CoY has anything to do with FP. Hubba pretty much states that the Einherjar maps are all their own worlds. Any connections between the other DLC maps are probably just food for thought/headcanon fuel/whatever. Like I said before, a big part of Awakening's design philosophy is staying out of the player's way, but giving them stuff to go on should they want it.

[Jotari]

1. You're not saying that Morgan came from Lucina's timeline, yet your train of logic suggests that Morgan did come from Lucina's timeline, but then you present evidence against Morgan coming from Lucina's timeline? What exactly is your position, then?

2. I sure hope Morgan remembers Robin as being older than the one in the present. Morgan hasn't been born yet in the present, Morgan should have no way to remember this Robin. And yes, it definitely is just a theory. If the devs hadn't wanted it to be ignored, it would be presented up front and not buried under a pile of optional convos within optional maps.

3. Narratively, giving the book isn't required for those things to happen. I'm talking about the specific act of giving the book, not the convo as a whole.

4. I'm not extremely fond of getting into interpretations of the tone behind individual lines (events in them, sure, but not tone). You have to extrapolate a bit too much for comfort to get anything out of them, there's always a danger something could have been lost in translation, maybe the dude writing it wasn't even paying attention etc. But for the sake of debate, if all Morgan remembers is a smiling happy Robin, that wouldn't be very indicative of a bad future, so they'd be justified in being skeptical (beyond the initial premise of coming from the future at all, which should be a bigger shocker).

Oh, there's no way CoY has anything to do with FP. Hubba pretty much states that the Einherjar maps are all their own worlds. Any connections between the other DLC maps are probably just food for thought/headcanon fuel/whatever. Like I said before, a big part of Awakening's design philosophy is staying out of the player's way, but giving them stuff to go on should they want it.

Well I'm mostly just playing Devil's Advocate here. I could just as easily argue your case. Personally I believe what makes the most sense is that morgan did come from another timeline unrelated to Future Past of Lucina's Timeline. I feel like if they wanted that to be the implication they would have made the dual books a much bigger feature of the Hot Spring Scramble conversation instead of just a single line that is immediately disregarded. You have made me wonder if the same writer worked on the Future Past and Hot Spring Scramble. Do we have specific information like that on DLC chapters? Awakening had like half a dozen writers.

[Alastor15243]

Wait, so if the future past is a failed version of the main game's timeline, then why do they need to re-revive falchion? They'd already have 1 and 4/5 falchions available, and none of them un-awakened. I always took that to mean that this was a more crappy version of the children's original timeline.