Does anyone else have a hard time choosing Nohr (conquest)?

[Sunwoo]

I think it's a stretch to say it was primarily developed for the Japanese. Before Awakening, that might have been true, but now? And no, I don't really find a problem with cultures inflating themselves. To do it to this extent is kind of annoying, though, since it comes at the cost of the narrative.

Have you ever read a high school American history textbook? The cultural posturing present in Fates in on par with whatever tripe the history books I used ten years ago said. Except at least Fates isn't trying to pass itself off as an accurate history of anything, it is just a game. Fates' cultural posturing coming at the cost of the narrative of the game? Our own cultural posturing comes at the cost of being able to understand anything about things that we've done to fuck up.

If you hate the cultural posturing in this game, that's fine, I don't like it either. But at least realize that this is not something unique to Japan, and that WE'RE just as responsible for doing cultural posturing as well -- and that we don't even give ourselves half the crap we give Fates over it because it's okay when it's "us" and that line of thinking (that it's okay when it's us but not when it's anyone else) needs to fuck off in general.

EDIT: @guy above me: Even if it may be human nature, that doesn't mean I should roll over and not bring it up at all.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Seanp12]

I hate to break it to you but that's just people in general. Not to get too off topic but all civilizations have tried to posture or inflate themselves in some way (in a sense culture itself might not even exist if they didn't). It doesn't matter if you're French, Japanese, or whatever. People just naturally gravitate to their own norms and culture. Personally, I don't find anything wrong with posturing one's own culture as long as said cultures aren't condoning things like rape, murder etc but like I said topic for another time. I don't think he was trying to put down Eastern culture in any way just saying that he was going to look at the Western side of the game more positively...

Yeah. I really don't care if the Japanese side are portrayed as the morally pure good guys. My problem is that Nohr are portrayed as pure evil. I was hoping for something more antiheroic. If that had been the case, I wager that Conquest would be a far and away favorite here in the West even if both sides were westernized.

​EDIT in response to Sunwoo: You act as if Fates is supposed to be a political statement. Why should I not be disappointed with Nohr for being portrayed as pure evil because the West has done some morally ambiguous things in the past? Why should I take on some false shame for things that I never had a choice in? If I wanted to dwell on the bad things in my history, I'd read a political essay. In the meantime, I'd like my video games to just make a decent narrative.

Let Japan portray themselves as amazing all they want--they've done a fine job since the end of the World Wars, after all--but if they must, I'd rather they didn't do it at the expense of others. The historical blame game is tiring and futile.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Seanp12

[saisymbolic]

Have you ever read a high school American history textbook? The cultural posturing present in Fates in on par with whatever tripe the history books I used ten years ago said. Except at least Fates isn't trying to pass itself off as an accurate history of anything, it is just a game. Fates' cultural posturing coming at the cost of the narrative of the game? Our own cultural posturing comes at the cost of being able to understand anything about things that we've done to fuck up.

If you hate the cultural posturing in this game, that's fine, I don't like it either. But at least realize that this is not something unique to Japan, and that WE'RE just as responsible for doing cultural posturing as well -- and that we don't even give ourselves half the crap we give Fates over it because it's okay when it's "us" and that line of thinking (that it's okay when it's us but not when it's anyone else) needs to fuck off in general.

I think you may be taking this out of proportion. I don't think I've read through anyone mad because of cultural posturing in terms of Hoshido and Nohr.

Most of us are just salty because Nohr is blatantly evil and siding with them makes you out to be a dumb ass, while choosing Hoshido has no repercussions whatsoever and makes you out as a saint. The fact that they both aesthetically represent feudal Japan and medieval West has nothing to do with it. Had it been the other way around, I would have been salty in the same fashion--except for Hoshido.

Most times, history books are written by the "winners."

History is biased. Period. I've heard from a Japanese kid in my class that, when he attended school in Japan, he knew nothing about WW2 because there was nothing about it in his history books--or something to that effect. If American history books are posturing and trying to pass off accurate history, then so too is Japan by ignoring what happened back then in the war. Most people these days are smart enough to realize that what is presented in history books are inaccurate and are better off searching for themselves about the truth of things.

Good luck with that, though. Every culture is good at obscuring anything that paints them in an overtly negative light.

[BruceLee]

My eyebrows went up actually after the Chapter 15 battle. When Azura was like

"Well, seeing as how we can't mention any of the shit that just went down in that other world to anyone and I just wasted this one-time crystal thing to show you, there's no way ANYONE will believe us. The only other option is to conquer Hoshido to make your slimy ass daddy sit on the golden throne so we can prove to your idiot siblings that he's a slimy ass daddy."

Like, what just happened?

When I got to that point, I had to stop and count out all of the things wrong with that as I was just completely baffled.

Yup, these are pretty much the reactions i was expecting, sadly. And it's only gonna get worse, again, sadly.

It's not even a problem of hindsight, though. What I (and I'm sure some others) are mad about is that Corrin pretty much immediately decided to go along with Azura's stupid plan after that stupid contrivance. No sane person would think that's an acceptable plan for "bringing peace to both nations," and one certainly doesn't need to know the future to realize that the plan is terrible. Corrin should've at least tried something, anything, before resorting to such actions.

Exactly. We all wish that's how Conquest could've been, but alas, it was not meant to be... It's not even a problem of Conquest ending badly (that can still be done without negatively impacting the story), but Corrin actively making stupid decisions while the game forces me to think that those decisions are intelligent ones.

Once again i agree with everything you said.

Edited February 23, 2016 by BruceLee

[Time the Crestfallen]

History is biased. Period. I've heard from a Japanese kid in my class that, when he attended school in Japan, he knew nothing about WW2 because there was nothing about it in his history books--or something to that effect. If American history books are posturing and trying to pass off accurate history, then so too is Japan by ignoring what happened back then in the war. Most people these days are smart enough to realize that what is presented in history books are inaccurate and are better off searching for themselves about the truth of things.

Good luck with that, though. Every culture is good at obscuring anything that paints them in an overtly negative light.

To be fair though, acknowledging what happened in WW2 would inevitable lead to a discussion about Imperial Japan, which is...not something you want to teach about.

[Namarid]

I do agree that the story took a dumb turn that it shouldn't have, but I don't think the actions that the characters took are understandable because of their personality traits and what has happened already.

Azura should of showed everyone the truth, but I'm pretty sure she's shown to be a very closed off person. With this in mind I think that it would of been very hard to reveal the truth to her siblings because she doesn't trust them/ isn't comfortable enough with them. In addition, even if she did show them the truth I doubt they would believe her because what she is suggesting is ridiculous in itself. She would of been branded a traitor, lost the trust of her siblings and would of been in a worst position to achieve peace.

The only person in the story who she has a chance of convincing is corrin.

Now corrin is a different problem. They really should of been more skeptical, thought about a different way to convince their siblings and not have been so willing to invade hoshido.The only reason that I can see them being willing to invade hoshido is because they're desperate at this point which actually makes sense.

At this point in the story corrin has tried to do things their way many times only to be stopped by the ruthless actions of garon. They realise that they are less powerful than they originally thought and that doing things their way is pointless because garon can reverse everything easily. Azura offers them an alternative way to achieve peace that seems to have a higher chance of succeeding. Like I said previously, corrin is desperate at this point so any way that is able to remove garon seems appealing to them, which is why they essentially sacrifice hoshido to do it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the whole invasion idea and the lead up to it is dumb, but I'm willing to forgive it because I'm able to understand why azura and corrin ,after what they have been through, think it's a good idea.

[Sunwoo]

I think you may be taking this out of proportion. I don't think I've read through anyone mad because of cultural posturing in terms of Hoshido and Nohr.

Most of us are just salty because Nohr is blatantly evil and siding with them makes you out to be a dumb ass, while choosing Hoshido has no repercussions whatsoever and makes you out as a saint. The fact that they both aesthetically represent feudal Japan and medieval West has nothing to do with it. Had it been the other way around, I would have been salty in the same fashion--except for Hoshido.

Most times, history books are written by the "winners."

History is biased. Period. I've heard from a Japanese kid in my class that, when he attended school in Japan, he knew nothing about WW2 because there was nothing about it in his history books--or something to that effect. If American history books are posturing and trying to pass off accurate history, then so too is Japan by ignoring what happened back then in the war. Most people these days are smart enough to realize that what is presented in history books are inaccurate and are better off searching for themselves about the truth of things.

Good luck with that, though. Every culture is good at obscuring anything that paints them in an overtly negative light.

Way to miss the entire point of why I even brought up cultural posturing.

I don't like that Nohr is made out to be "evil" and Hoshido is presented as being so "pure". But choosing between Nohr and Hoshido isn't some dichotomy where the side you don't side with has to be absolutely awful. You don't have to agree with the motivations of one side while still acknowledging that they have their reasons for what they do. What I'm seeing is a lot of "black and white" viewpoints from the players regarding the two sides … ironically what THEY themselves had complained about! You don't have to like Hoshido's cultural posturing or agree with them to realize that someone saying that they want to destroy Hoshido because they're so pure or not even acknowledge that both Nohr and Hoshido had done things in the wrong and only pointing out one side's wrongs is pretty fucked up. Period.

[Seanp12]

Way to miss the entire point of why I even brought up cultural posturing.

I don't like that Nohr is made out to be "evil" and Hoshido is presented as being so "pure". But choosing between Nohr and Hoshido isn't some dichotomy where the side you don't side with has to be absolutely awful. You don't have to agree with the motivations of one side while still acknowledging that they have their reasons for what they do. What I'm seeing is a lot of "black and white" viewpoints from the players regarding the two sides … ironically what THEY themselves had complained about! You don't have to like Hoshido's cultural posturing or agree with them to realize that someone saying that they want to destroy Hoshido because they're so pure or not even acknowledge that both Nohr and Hoshido had done things in the wrong and only pointing out one side's wrongs is pretty fucked up. Period.

I don't think anyone is pushing for that. Most of the Nohr fans are just frustrated that Nohr has virtually no redeeming qualities, and the fact that the game waves it in your face.

Granted, I haven't actually played yet. I'm just commenting on what appears to be the mentality of most Nohr fans. I myself favored Nohr when Fates was first announced, so I'm disappointed to hear that the story is so weak, and that the game seems to think that's a good thing. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised when my 3DS arrives and I can actually play.

[Cinnamon Bun]

Tbh this is opposite for me. I was never once swayed into wanting to pick Hoshido. Like yes obviously Nohr is the "bad kingdom" but I've always liked them better, since the first reveal. The siblings on this side also care for you in a much more genuine way (in my opinion)

Alsooo the Nohr story doesn't really bother me. I'm excited to invade Hoshido, I just really don't care about them. I have spoiled all 3 routes for myself, I still prefer Conquest over Birthright AND Revelations.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Cinnamon Bun

[Tsuky]

To be fair though, acknowledging what happened in WW2 would inevitable lead to a discussion about Imperial Japan, which is...not something you want to teach about.

There goes the hope of Japan ever owning up to its mistakes... But I digress; don't want this to turn into a thread about real-life politics.

I do agree that the story took a dumb turn that it shouldn't have, but I don't think the actions that the characters took are understandable because of their personality traits and what has happened already.

Azura should of showed everyone the truth, but I'm pretty sure she's shown to be a very closed off person. With this in mind I think that it would of been very hard to reveal the truth to her siblings because she doesn't trust them/ isn't comfortable enough with them. In addition, even if she did show them the truth I doubt they would believe her because what she is suggesting is ridiculous in itself. She would of been branded a traitor, lost the trust of her siblings and would of been in a worst position to achieve peace.

The only person in the story who she has a chance of convincing is corrin.

Now corrin is a different problem. They really should of been more skeptical, thought about a different way to convince their siblings and not have been so willing to invade hoshido.The only reason that I can see them being willing to invade hoshido is because they're desperate at this point which actually makes sense.

At this point in the story corrin has tried to do things their way many times only to be stopped by the ruthless actions of garon. They realise that they are less powerful than they originally thought and that doing things their way is pointless because garon can reverse everything easily. Azura offers them an alternative way to achieve peace that seems to have a higher chance of succeeding. Like I said previously, corrin is desperate at this point so any way that is able to remove garon seems appealing to them, which is why they essentially sacrifice hoshido to do it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the whole invasion idea and the lead up to it is dumb, but I'm willing to forgive it because I'm able to understand why azura and corrin ,after what they have been through, think it's a good idea.

[spoiler=] But think about this, if they had just sat on their asses, Garon would A) not be able to conquer Hoshido because he lacked the help of the hero or B) conquer Hoshido and sit his ass on the throne anyway. If scenario B were supposed to happen (without Corrin's intervention), then Corrin and Azura literally accomplished nothing. If scenario A were supposed to happen (without Corrin's intervention), then Corrin and Azura basically said "Screw you, Hoshido, gotta take care of our own country's problems first." This would be fine and all, if Corrin didn't care about Hoshido and didn't go on and on about how he wanted "peace for both countries" and "be united with his Hoshidan siblings again."

So somehow, Corrin was able to convince himself that this was for the best, even though he didn't explore other options. Like, what did he even try to do behind Garon's back other than sparing a few people here and there? No secretly rallying anti-Garon forces, no sneak attacks on Garon, no nothing. So how exactly are they desperate? You can't fail at something if you haven't attempted it.

Also, it's a miracle that he can live down the guilt of playing an active role in invading another country and causing the suffering of so many innocents and the deaths of the Hoshidan brothers and their retainers (well, I suppose Azura did too, since she grew up with them. But meh, she died, so I guess no one will go after her for it). If I were in Corrin's shoes, I would've rather tried telling my siblings about Valla and disappearing than agreeing to invading a country, even one without my siblings in it; I would never be able to live with that decision. So no matter how you try to spin it, their decision was a terrible one. And the Hoshidan siblings just magically forgave him at the end.

Wtf? Does Conquest do justice to any character? Xander, the Hoshidan siblings, and Kaze all got s*itted on especially hard, so yeah, not much left to be desired.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Tsuky

[solrocknroll]

I'm fine with people preferring Conquest, but it's a bit much when people assume that since Hoshido gets pandered too, all the Hoshidan characters is boring. I'm sick of these assumptions from both Birthright players about Conquest and Conquest players about Birthright.

I mean, Birthright has Azama, Setsuna, Saizo, Rhajat, Reina, Orochi, Kaden, and Hana. I'd say Birthright has better characters than Conquest in fact. Conquest has Camilla, Keaton, Leo, Elise, Arthur, and Charlotte though, so it's very slight.

[Sentinel07]

There goes the hope of Japan ever owning up to its mistakes... But I digress; don't want this to turn into a thread about real-life politics.

[spoiler=] But think about this, if they had just sat on their asses, Garon would A) not be able to conquer Hoshido because he lacked the help of the hero or B) conquer Hoshido and sit his ass on the throne anyway. If scenario B were supposed to happen (without Corrin's intervention), then Corrin and Azura literally accomplished nothing. If scenario A were supposed to happen (without Corrin's intervention), then Corrin and Azura basically said "Screw you, Hoshido, gotta take care of our own country's problems first." This would be fine and all, if Corrin didn't care about Hoshido and didn't go on and on about how he wanted "peace for both countries" and "be united with his Hoshidan siblings again."

So somehow, Corrin was able to convince himself that this was for the best, even though he didn't explore other options. Like, what did he even try to do behind Garon's back other than sparing a few people here and there? No secretly rallying anti-Garon forces, no sneak attacks on Garon, no nothing. So how exactly are they desperate? You can't fail at something if you haven't attempted it.

Also, it's a miracle that he can live down the guilt of playing an active role in invading another country and causing the suffering of so many innocents and the deaths of the Hoshidan brothers and their retainers (well, I suppose Azura did too, since she grew up with them. But meh, she died, so I guess no one will go after her for it). If I were in Corrin's shoes, I would've rather tried telling my siblings about Valla and disappearing than agreeing to invading a country, even one without my siblings in it; I would never be able to live with that decision. So no matter how you try to spin it, their decision was a terrible one. And the Hoshidan siblings just magically forgave him at the end.

Wtf? Does Conquest do justice to any character? Xander, the Hoshidan siblings, and Kaze all got s*itted on especially hard, so yeah, not much left to be desired.

Uh, have some of you forgotten that mentioning Valla outside of it would kill you?

I don't see how Azura could have used that crystal to show the Nohr siblings without them demanding where it came from, and I doubt they would have had time to bring the siblings to Valla to show them before Garon and Iago got suspicious.

I take Corrin going along with the plan as meaning that he didn't think there were other options.

[Tsuky]

Uh, have some of you forgotten that mentioning Valla outside of it would kill you?

I don't see how Azura could have used that crystal to show the Nohr siblings without them demanding where it came from, and I doubt they would have had time to bring the siblings to Valla to show them before Garon and Iago got suspicious.

I take Corrin going along with the plan as meaning that he didn't think there were other options.

Uh, except I mentioned that? [spoiler=] I said I'd rather tell my siblings about Valla and disappear/die than agree to invade a country.

I mean, Arete did that for the sake of Azura and Nohr, so it's safe to say that you can spill out whatever you want before dying.

I even avoided mentioning the crystal ball, and I never suggested that they show it to the Nohrian siblings. Okay, let's just pretend for a moment that the crystal ball isn't a contrived plot device. Even with such a limitation, Azura and Corrin should've at least attempted other methods before resorting to the worst one possible. As I've said, why would he think that there were no other options when he didn't even try anything?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Tsuky

[saisymbolic]

Way to miss the entire point of why I even brought up cultural posturing.

I don't like that Nohr is made out to be "evil" and Hoshido is presented as being so "pure". But choosing between Nohr and Hoshido isn't some dichotomy where the side you don't side with has to be absolutely awful. You don't have to agree with the motivations of one side while still acknowledging that they have their reasons for what they do. What I'm seeing is a lot of "black and white" viewpoints from the players regarding the two sides … ironically what THEY themselves had complained about! You don't have to like Hoshido's cultural posturing or agree with them to realize that someone saying that they want to destroy Hoshido because they're so pure or not even acknowledge that both Nohr and Hoshido had done things in the wrong and only pointing out one side's wrongs is pretty fucked up. Period.

Why did you bring it up in the first place, then? Are we somehow doing cultural posturing by choosing one side over the other? No one had a problem the "eastern" country being right or the "western" country being wrong. We have a problem with the story being less than satisfactory and presented in a way opposite to what was advertised. We also have a problem with being treated like douches for choosing one narrative over the other one via bad storytelling and stupid ass characters.

You criticize players for having black and white viewpoints but that's all we're given within the context of the narrative. How can there be grey when the two sides don't overlap? No, this game is not real life but, at least in real life, you have the numerous pieces to understand each sides' motives and plights. You have grey. We don't have that with Fates. What we have is a path that is morally righteous, flaunted to us in the form of the other path, the morally despicable one. There is no in between.

And who wants to destroy Hoshido for being too pure? The game or players? Who ever said that? And what wrongs have Hoshido done in comparison to Nohr? Because the only thing I've seen is them doing things in retaliation for something Nohr has done, which further paints them as the better--or at least justified--people and Nohr as the worst.

Like, this post may seem angry or whatever but I'm not. I legit don't understand the point of you bringing up cultural posturing in this discussion. You said something about American history books and I responded that we aren't the only ones to do it, which is how I read your statement. Japan does it. We do it. Cultural posturing isn't right no matter who does it but I still don't see the relevance.

Edited February 23, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Seanp12]

If this Valla thing is important, I'd ask you to please spoiler tag it. Because it sounds important, and I'm still waiting for my 3DS to arrive before I can play.

[Tsuky]

And who wants to destroy Hoshido for being too pure? The game or players? Who ever said that?

As ridiculous as this sounds, I've actually seen people say something similar in nature to this in previous plot threads. "Well, Hoshido is a perfect kingdom anyway, they can just rebuild themselves" (in context of what happened in Conquest) is one that I remember particularly well.

If this Valla thing is important, I'd ask you to please spoiler tag it. Because it sounds important, and I'm still waiting for my 3DS to arrive before I can play.

Oops, fixed. The other guy didn't spoiler tag so I didn't either. Sorry about that.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Tsuky

[DeadLuckChris]

I was full Nohr till around chapter 5.it had me a little bit on the fence but i still ended up choosing the dark kingdom.

[Namarid]

@Tsuky

"Like, what did he even try to do behind Garon's back other than sparing a few people here and there? No secretly rallying anti-Garon forces, no sneak attacks on Garon, no nothing. So how exactly are they desperate? You can't fail at something if you haven't attempted it."

Honestly I don't know if all those are viable options, they're definitely nice sounding and better than the alternative. However, I feel that any rebellion force would of been crushed by the nohrian army regardless. I would imagine that there are more people willing to support garon than go against him,so any effort to try and rally forces would be futile.

They're not desperate to kill garon, they're desperate to change nohr and end the war. That's the whole reason they joined them in the first place.

They tried to do things on the side and it failed, so they go tackle the root of the problem. Garon has proven to be intolerant of disobedience and punishes it with death. It would make sense that this would factor into their next plan. They can't do anything too obvious as they would be killed instantly and would of achieved nothing, hoshido would truly be screwed.

"Also, it's a miracle that he can live down the guilt of playing an active role in invading another country and causing the suffering of so many innocents and the deaths of the Hoshidan brothers and their retainers (well, I suppose Azura did too, since she grew up with them. But meh, she died, so I guess no one will go after her). If I were in Corrin's shoes, I would've rather tried to tell my siblings about Valla and disappearing than agreeing to invading a country, even one without my siblings in it; I would never be able to live with that decision."

I agree with you here. I don't know why corrin is smiling at what happened. I know I would be extremely depressed.

"So no matter how you try to spin it, their decision was a terrible one. And the Hoshidan siblings just magically forgave him at the end."

The idea sucks, but with their not being a strong presence from rebelling forces during the story I feel that there weren't a lot of options. Rebelling forces against garon is the best idea, however IS failed to make them seem like any type of threat to garon. Conquest should of had a bitter ending tbh idk why it's happy at all.

[Sunwoo]

And who wants to destroy Hoshido for being too pure? The game or players? Who ever said that?

I'm excited to invade Hoshido, I just really don't care about them.

GEE. I WONDER.

That was in this thread. And I've heard that kind of sentiment from SFers on other threads, too.

[Seanp12]

GEE. I WONDER.

That was in this thread. And I've heard that kind of sentiment from SFers on other threads, too.

Well, they specifically asked who wanted to destroy it for being too pure. The person you quoted sounds like they just decided that they don't care one way or the other about Hoshido--they just want to destroy it for the lulz. Which makes Conquest perfect for them, it sounds.

[saisymbolic]

As ridiculous as this sounds, I've actually seen people say something similar in nature to this in previous plot threads. "Well, Hoshido is a perfect kingdom anyway, they can just rebuild themselves" (in context of what happened in Conquest) is one that I remember particularly well.

Oops, fixed. The other guy didn't spoiler tag so I didn't either. Sorry about that.

GEE. I WONDER.

That was in this thread. And I've heard that kind of sentiment from SFers on other threads, too.

Well, they specifically asked who wanted to destroy it for being too pure. The person you quoted sounds like they just decided that they don't care one way or the other about Hoshido--they just want to destroy it for the lulz. Which makes Conquest perfect for them, it sounds.

I feel like this is the reason as well and I feel its taken out of proportion. It reminds me of the whole "violence in video game" controversy and "if you do it in video games, you would do it in real life" bull crap.

Like, I enjoy playing GTA and kicking the ever-lovin' snot out of innocent bystanders but I don't have a violent bone in my body. Hell, I cry when people run over animals or step on bugs. Just because some say that, I doubt it actually reflects their values and morals--like choosing one path over the other.

Edited February 23, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Tsuky]

@Tsuky

"Like, what did he even try to do behind Garon's back other than sparing a few people here and there? No secretly rallying anti-Garon forces, no sneak attacks on Garon, no nothing. So how exactly are they desperate? You can't fail at something if you haven't attempted it."

Honestly I don't know if all those are viable options, they're definitely nice sounding and better than the alternative. However, I feel that any rebellion force would of been crushed by the nohrian army regardless. I would imagine that there are more people willing to support garon than go against him,so any effort to try and rally forces would be futile.

They're not desperate to kill garon, they're desperate to change nohr and end the war. That's the whole reason they joined them in the first place.

They tried to do things on the side and it failed, so they go tackle the root of the problem. Garon has proven to be intolerant of disobedience and punishes it with death. It would make sense that this would factor into their next plan. They can't do anything too obvious as they would be killed instantly and would of achieved nothing, hoshido would truly be screwed.

"Also, it's a miracle that he can live down the guilt of playing an active role in invading another country and causing the suffering of so many innocents and the deaths of the Hoshidan brothers and their retainers (well, I suppose Azura did too, since she grew up with them. But meh, she died, so I guess no one will go after her). If I were in Corrin's shoes, I would've rather tried to tell my siblings about Valla and disappearing than agreeing to invading a country, even one without my siblings in it; I would never be able to live with that decision."

I agree with you here. I don't know why corrin is smiling at what happened. I know I would be extremely depressed.

"So no matter how you try to spin it, their decision was a terrible one. And the Hoshidan siblings just magically forgave him at the end."

The idea sucks, but with their not being a strong presence from rebelling forces during the story I feel that there weren't a lot of options. Rebelling forces against garon is the best idea, however IS failed to make them seem like any type of threat to garon. Conquest should of had a bitter ending tbh idk why it's happy at all.

Yeah, I definitely see your points. I admit that I'm not a master strategist, either :P I was just throwing some suggestions out there. I mean, gathering allies, for instance, is a large part of other FE's. Even in this title, there's Scarlet and her rebels, who have existed for quite some time, and it's safe to say that they aren't the only forces around. So if this strategy isn't going to work here, I would've preferred them to at least show us how that's not viable (lots of Garon supporters around, etc.), instead of throwing the same two goons in our faces.

Also, there is another question that I kind of touched upon that I've been wondering about: would Hoshido really be screwed if everything were left as it is? We never really got a feel for the military strengths of the two countries, and I don't think it's right to assume that Hoshido had a smaller, weaker army. Even if Garon was [spoiler=] a slime monster

that doesn't automatically secure him the win over Hoshido. Essentially, there's the possibility that Corrin screwed Hoshido over more than it would've been if Corrin just sat in a corner and cried. I dunno, just something to think about.

I feel like this is the reason as well and I feel its taken out of proportion. It reminds me of the whole "violence in video game" controversy and "if you do it in video games, you would do it in real life" bull crap.

Like, I enjoy playing GTA and kicking the ever-lovin' snot out of innocent bystanders but I don't have a violent bone in my body. Hell, I cry when people run over animals or step on bugs. Just because some say that, I doubt it actually reflects their values and morals--like choosing one path over the other.

I could tell that the other guy was just doing it for the lolz. But in the thread I mentioned, that person was specifically trying to justify Nohrian actions. I mean, I don't care at all if you like playing the bad guys, but I think there's still a difference between "I don't care; just in it for the fun" and actually trying to spin the narrative in a way that justifies immoral actions. I guess an analogy would be that I love lots of villain characters in fictional works, but I wouldn't try to justify their actions. I just think they are cool characters, and I'm certainly not a bad person for liking them.

Hope that at least made some sense; I don't know if I'm communicating my ideas very effectively here...

Edited February 23, 2016 by Tsuky

[saisymbolic]

I could tell that the other guy was just doing it for the lolz. But in the thread I mentioned, that person was specifically trying to justify Nohrian actions. I mean, I don't care at all if you like playing the bad guys, but I think there's still a difference between "I don't care; just in it for the fun" and actually trying to spin the narrative in a way that justifies immoral actions. I guess an analogy would be that I love lots of villain characters in fictional works, but I wouldn't try to justify their actions. I just think they are cool characters, and I'm certainly not a bad person for liking them.

Ugh, hope that at least made some sense; I don't know if I'm communicating my ideas very effectively here...

Ah, okay. I understand you perfectly.

I don't even know how we got onto all of this. LOL. The topic was if we had a hard time choosing Nohr. I'll try to put us back on topic.

As this is most likely known at this point, I didn't have a problem with the decision; I had chosen ever since the game was announced and subsequently released in Japan. I chose it mainly for the aesthetics and Takehito!Koyasu Niles still salty about no dual audio so that I could hear him whisper innuendo into my left ear as I fell asleep at night.

As much as I love Nohr, I am not ashamed to acknowledge that Nohr has the weaker narrative and that the actions taken by the characters in said narrative is moronic. In my opinion, Conquest's strong points are its gameplay and characters, if one prefers them. While I would chose Nohr if the events were to actually happen to me, my actions would have been vastly different than that of canon!Kamui/Corrin's--but, then again, the story line would be way different than it is. Headcanon, FTW.

I love Nohr. A lot.

But, even though I don't say it, I love Hoshido and its characters to varying degrees--the same as Nohr. Story line, too, as it feels complete, if that makes any sense. I just prefer Nohr's gameplay and characters in this case.

Good thing I have both. I am simultaneously playing Birthright with Conquest for Saizou reasons.

Shh. Don't worry, Saizou-kun. No one else will be able to caress your man cleavage after I lure you to My Room and we reach S-rank.

Edited February 23, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[jankmaster98]

I kinda wish we had the option to turn the avatar into a cackling card carrying bad guy that eats baby lambs and bathes in the tears of his enemies, but hey as Sinatra said "That's life."

[Tsuky]

Ah, okay. I understand you perfectly.

I don't even know how we got onto all of this. LOL. The topic was if we had a hard time choosing Nohr. I'll try to put us back on topic.

As this is most likely known at this point, I didn't have a problem with the decision; I had chosen ever since the game was announced and subsequently released in Japan. I chose it mainly for the aesthetics and Takehito!Koyasu Niles still salty about no dual audio so that I could hear him whisper innuendo into my left ear as I fell asleep at night.

As much as I love Nohr, I am not ashamed to acknowledge that Nohr has the weaker narrative and that the actions taken by the characters in said narrative is moronic. In my opinion, Conquest's strong points are its gameplay and characters, if one prefers them. While I would chose Nohr if the events were to actually happen to me, my actions would have been vastly different than that of canon!Kamui/Corrin's--but, then again, the story line would be way different than it is. Headcanon, FTW.

I love Nohr. A lot.

But, even though I don't say it, I love Hoshido and its characters to varying degrees--the same as Nohr. Story line, too, as it feels complete, if that makes any sense. I just prefer Nohr's gameplay and characters in this case.

Good thing I have both. I am simultaneously playing Birthright with Conquest for Saizou reasons.

Shh. Don't worry, Saizou-kun. No one else will be able to caress your man cleavage after I lure you to My Room and we reach S-rank.

Yay, I managed to make myself clear :) And haha, I kinda derailed this thread into another plot thread :P

I really appreciate your fair assessment of Nohr as a Nohr fan. As a Hoshidan girl myself, I also hope to remove as much of my bias as possible when assessing elements such as the story. I'm most definitely going to enjoy my plays through Conquest and the other two routes when spring break finally comes around I've braced myself for all the heartbreaks. Tbh, the gameplay alone is enough to convince me to buy this route.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Tsuky