I feel like Fates just dropped the ball (Conquest Chapter 15 spoilers)

[Magikarpador]

I think Corrin's siblings wood sooner side with Corrin than fight against him for the sake of Garon. At this point you've already proven you're loyal to them and to Nohr and you've earned everyone's trust. I don't see why they'd doubt you, and the fact that Garon and only Garon was hurt by Azura's song would give a bit of credence to your claim.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Magikarpador

[saisymbolic]

I think Corrin's siblings wood sooner side with Corrin than fight against him for the sake of Garon. At this point you've already proven you're loyal to them and to Nohr and you've earned everyone's trust. I don't see why they'd doubt you, and the fact that Garon and only Garon was hurt by Azura's song would give a bit of credence to your claim.

Didn't they think the "songstress" was attempting to cast some sort of curse on Garon and he responded by being heavily triggered? If that is the case, I wouldn't exactly call it proof.

[BruceLee]

Yes, invading and killing innocent Hoshidans and soldiers is inexcusable, but Corrin already knows that and is prepared to shoulder the responsibility for it.

That's the thing, according to the game it is excusable. He's forgiven at the end when Hoshido is in ruins and he faces zero consequences for what he's done.

If the game wouldn't excuse him so easily and not shove it in our faces how he's supposed to be seen as a "radiant light" even after he's laid waste to Hoshido then i would have way less problems with it.

I'm not gonna bother with the rest of your post as others and myself have already addressed those points well enough.

Edited February 24, 2016 by BruceLee

[Sunwoo]

[spoiler=Hoshido spoilers]Wasn't it implied that Aqua showed Leon the same crystal ball in Hoshido 18? I have to wonder why they didn't at least try to talk to SOME of the siblings. Marx is a definite no, but Camilla's one defining characteristic is that she loves Kamui and Leon seems like he has some common sense, and Elise worships you (even if she doesn't seem like she can keep a secret). So it bothers me that Kamui and Aqua didn't try to talk to at least ONE sibling before deciding that they had to invade Hoshido.

It's more that they didn't even try to find any solutions or show them brainstorming (and crossing off) other possible solutions they could've had.

EDIT:

[spoiler=Nohr spoilers]Well, that and how Kamui is basically forgiven for fucking over Hoshido in an invasion that probably wasn't even required in the first place. If the game didn't try to paint his actions as being right and the only thing that could've stopped the war and that we should all hail Kamui our savior, I'd be far less annoyed with this resolution.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Ryas]

I'm not gonna bother with the rest of your post as others and myself have already addressed those points well enough.

Oh, sure, let me break down your points then.

First of all, the entire Hoshidan army will not be destroyed as a result of the invasion. Their defense lines would be numerous and concentrated but it certainly wouldn't be the entirety of the army. And this is still when Corrin believes that he will be able to save many of those lives that would be destroyed. Secondly, Hans slaughtering surrendering soldiers is something that shocks even Xander. For the rebels in Cheve you could make the argument that a brutal demonstration of the price of betrayal would dissuade others from rebelling and forfeiting their lives as well, so Ganz was there to do the dirty work, but the slaughter of the surrendering soldiers was purely the will of Anankos and an action that even Xander did not foresee, much less Corrin when he made the decision. Once he is committed to the invasion there is no going back, so he has no choice but to clench his teeth and bear with the guilt.

And hey, at least they tried to do the "you reap what you sow" when you get sniped out by Takumi. It was just ruined by the plot from Revelations.

[BruceLee]

Don't be childish now. If you want answers to your false points then reread the thread. If you can't find anything to convince you of that then i can't help you, were not gonna get anywhere.

That's the last i'll respond to you.

[Thane]

Why are the protagonists criticized for acting realistically,but takumi is praised for acting realistically. I think they call this double standards. I'm pretty sure if acting out against someone ,with more authority than you, put your life at risk then you would be scared to do so and if you were strongly against what they were doing then you would do things that weren't obvious to mitigate it's effects.

You and I have two very different opinions on what realism would be in a situation like this. First of all, going back to Nohr after your daddy sent you on a suicide mission with a psychopath to help invade an innocent nation is stupid in the first place, but since people will start talking about bonds vs blood and debate morality, let's at the very least agree that Corrin should've bloody talked to his bloody siblings rather than going on a murderous rampage; that's not a quick, easy solution, that's the furthest thing from what any sane person would do in this situation.

Also, like NekoKnight said, the attitude towards just giving up and not even confronting Garon makes zero sense in a Fire Emblem setting, since by that logic it would've made more sense for Ike to give up when the whole world was turned to stone. If you put heroes in a situation like this with the explanation "nah but they can't do anything about it" (which is simply not true in the first place), at least show the protagonist trying to do something, anything at all, instead of giving up immediately. Oh, and have the balls to have the narrative portray it like it is, rather than twisting it to make Corrin look like he is doing the right thing.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Thane

[secondworld]

I actually wasn't all that upset at first, probably out of relief that the plot was finally moving forward. I have not been fond of Conquest's pacing so far.

If the other siblings were shown the truth too and the invasion happens solely because of Garon(as in Corrin doesn't think it's actually a good idea) would've been a simple change to this plot point that would've made things more engaging I think. From that point on Corrin and co. would work together to subtly sabotage Garon's invasion and eventually overthrow him without arousing suspicion, and because invading Hoshido is simply not a just cause, especially by this point, moral issues and the toll that the situation is taking on the characters would be a major focus. Keep in mind I haven't finished yet so I don't know how the story ends up coming together, aside from vague implications that it gets worse.

...I guess the entire game could also be rewritten to not make the war so black and white, that could work too.

[joshcja]

On the note of invading hoshido vs civil war, can we keep in mind that hoshido has a full blown genocide boner for nohr that isn't going to go away just because nohr calls "time out we need a civil war".

"Corin kills people" its a war

"Omgyuinvadethepeopleyou'reatwarwith" its a war

Its still a bad plot but its a fe game and honestly bad plots come standard. Hell its honestly better than birthright's sadly enough (hey lets go kill everyone you ever loved and raze your homeland to the earth, ok I have no problem with this just dont kill them hard stranger I just met"

Edited February 24, 2016 by joshcja

[The DanMan]

On the note of invading hoshido vs civil war, can we keep in mind that hoshido has a full blown genocide boner for nohr that isn't going to go away just because nohr calls "time out we need a civil war".

Actually, they really don't in the Japanese, and as such shouldn't be considered when talking about the overall story.

Edited February 24, 2016 by The DanMan

[Ryas]

Don't be childish now. If you want answers to your false points then reread the thread. If you can't find anything to convince you of that then i can't help you, were not gonna get anywhere.

That's the last i'll respond to you.

Ok.

[Jave]

Actually, they really don't in the Japanese, and as such shouldn't be considered when talking about the overall story.

I don't think this is an argument that should be brought in this discussion. The majority here has only played the localized version, and we should discuss the game in the context of that version (unless the thread is made specifically to discuss the other version or both versions).

We discuss every game in the series in the context of the officially localized versions. Fates shouldn't be any different.

[joshcja]

Yeah I cant read moonrunes so that's flat out imaginary unicorn land to me.

[PWJosh]

To be fair if corrin had killed garon instead of invading hosido, do you really think Xander would have stopped the war with peace talks? It would go against his dead father's last wishes. Seems more likely he would continue the invasion in his father's name, and probably kill corrin for treason on top of that. Doesn't make the plot necessarily good, but if I pick Nohr at the route switch I probably want to invade hoshido at some point. I saw this more as a way to make the character still the same person in both paths despite the players desire to do something the game states is evil.

[Namarid]

You and I have two very different opinions on what realism would be in a situation like this. First of all, going back to Nohr after your daddy sent you on a suicide mission with a psychopath to help invade an innocent nation is stupid in the first place, but since people will start talking about bonds vs blood and debate morality, let's at the very least agree that Corrin should've bloody talked to his bloody siblings rather than going on a murderous rampage; that's not a quick, easy solution, that's the furthest thing from what any sane person would do in this situation.

Also, like NekoKnight said, the attitude towards just giving up and not even confronting Garon makes zero sense in a Fire Emblem setting, since by that logic it would've made more sense for Ike to give up when the whole world was turned to stone. If you put heroes in a situation like this with the explanation "nah but they can't do anything about it" (which is simply not true in the first place), at least show the protagonist trying to do something, anything at all, instead of giving up immediately. Oh, and have the balls to have the narrative portray it like it is, rather than twisting it to make Corrin look like he is doing the right thing.

I do feel agree that corrin made a really idiotic move by not talking to his siblings, however with the invasion idea I say it's mostly the way the setting's been built that makes it seem like their only viable option was to invade.

Corrin is constantly reminded that defying garon equals death, which severely hampers what he can do. Garon's word is law, so whatever corrin disagrees with means nothing at all. The rebelling forces just seem like a minor inconvenience to garon and you actively take part in destroying the one with the most strength. Because of all these things I can't blame corrin for doing what he did cause the story has put too many restrictions on him to make other options not viable at all.

In regards to the fighting against unfavourable odds point I do feel that the story should of taken this route. However it would of taken a lot of work to make it not seem like an asspull. Ike and chrom had deities on their side and weren't nearly as restricted as corrin was. Corrin has a friend who can sing and a sword that levels up.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Conquest should of had a bitter ending if it was going to go down the 'main protag can't do crap' route. After what happens there is no reason for corrin to be smiling.

I swear every time I give my opinions on the conquest story the more I get annoyed by it.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I really wish the plot could've been that Xander actually has plans to Usurp Garon, but can't enact them during this precarious time of war, or can't rally the support he needs when the nobles are too busy fighting and hating Hoshido.

I agree.

Well heres my thoughts on the plot turn here.

[spoiler=Nohr spoilas obviously]

Azura: "By the way, this world...yeah Fight Club Curse."

MU: "Yo, thats kinda dumb but ok."

Azura: "Yeah it is, but what are ya gonna do?"

MU: *looks at player*

Me: "Oi..."

Azura: "Lets get out of here. Btw, i can travel through water and so can you. Gunther cant tho."

MU: "oh weird. Sucks about Gunther."

Azura: "Thats why you gotta go through the canyon. Also some...mumble mumble"

MU: "What?"

Azura: "I dunno. See ya on the other side."

*jumps*

MU: "We're back! Weird."

Azura: "Yeah. Btw Garon is a slime monster."

MU: "NO WAI."

Azura: "Check it out through this exposition thing i just pulled out of my arse."

MU: "Whoa, such slime monster. Now what?"

Azura: "We gotta invade Hoshido to like, put him on the special throne so he can show everyone ever hes a slime."

MU: "Oh man...but thats..."

Azura: "Yeah you gotta fight the Hoshido sibs."

MU: "Lame. Did you see how OP Ryoma is? Ah man....fighting him is gonna be a pain. Takumi too because i plan on getting Revenant Knight."

Azura: "Oh ass. Fujin Yumi gonna kick yo ass."

MU: "Yeah. Sucks."

Azura: "....we still gotta do it."

MU: "Fuuuuuu."

[The DanMan]

I don't think this is an argument that should be brought in this discussion. The majority here has only played the localized version, and we should discuss the game in the context of that version (unless the thread is made specifically to discuss the other version or both versions).

We discuss every game in the series in the context of the officially localized versions. Fates shouldn't be any different.

But that's how it was originally written; someone was trying to use something exclusive to the localized version in part of his defense, so I informed them otherwise.

I was under the impression that this was a "what were the writers thinking" discussion.

[Magikarpador]

To be fair if corrin had killed garon instead of invading hosido, do you really think Xander would have stopped the war with peace talks? It would go against his dead father's last wishes. Seems more likely he would continue the invasion in his father's name, and probably kill corrin for treason on top of that. Doesn't make the plot necessarily good, but if I pick Nohr at the route switch I probably want to invade hoshido at some point. I saw this more as a way to make the character still the same person in both paths despite the players desire to do something the game states is evil.

Well it seems like the war is mostly just Norh attacking and Hoshio retaliating, and with Xander not having much reason to try and conquer Hoshido I wouldn't say it's too unlikely.

I disagree with the doing something the game states is evil. I chose Nohr because I didn't want to betray Xander, Elise, Camilla, and Leo. They're your family, you grew up with them, and you love and care for each other.

[NekoKnight]

The real big issue with how the game's story is received is because it's written to make the player feel helpless and shitty all the time always, when most games go the opposite route and make the player feel empowered and capable.

It's stupid writing, sure, but that's not the only reason a lot of people are up in arms about this.

Yup, that's half of it. You are given two (initial) choices about which faction you want to side with and they should be of equal merit. The first (Hoshido) follows the the typical FE format. Kamui fights for a just cause, defends a nation from an invasion and disposes of an evil tyrant. You are rewarded with feeling empowered and capable. But let's say you want to support the other nation with your adopted family? I hope you like being helpless and shitty 90% of the time, to constantly fail in your endeavors and for the story to railroad you into making the most idiotic and immoral choices.

Usually if a protagonist has terrible flaws, they have an arc to resolve those flaws so you can stop feeling shitty. Fates wants to constantly throw your cowardice and helplessness back in your face while simultaneously pretending you are in any way heroic for your choices.

In regards to the fighting against unfavourable odds point I do feel that the story should of taken this route. However it would of taken a lot of work to make it not seem like an asspull. Ike and chrom had deities on their side and weren't nearly as restricted as corrin was. Corrin has a friend who can sing and a sword that levels up.

Let's take a look at Ike's odds. On his side he has a small remnant of his side's forces and a goddess who's only powers are to protect them from instantly turning to stone and to empower their weapons. They face a large group of the goddess favored Begnion army, the Black Knight, Sephiran, an ARMY OF DRAGONS and then the goddess herself who can turn the population of a continent to stone simply by sneezing. RD endgame is you pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and punching God in the face. Ike has a sword that levels up and some birds that can sing.

I could talk about all the other games where you kick ass despite all odds but that would be a long list.

[Baldrick]

I hope you like being helpless and shitty 90% of the time, to constantly fail in your endeavors and for the story to railroad you into making the most idiotic and immoral choices.

So the whole game is essentially the DB chapters in Part 3 of RD, except Micaiah and co. don't even try to defy the blood pact and just incinerate Crimea and the Apostle's forces?

[Namarid]

Let's take a look at Ike's odds. On his side he has a small remnant of his side's forces and a goddess who's only powers are to protect them from instantly turning to stone and to empower their weapons. They face a large group of the goddess favored Begnion army, the Black Knight, Sephiran, an ARMY OF DRAGONS and then the goddess herself who can turn the population of a continent to stone simply by sneezing. RD endgame is you pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and punching God in the face. Ike has a sword that levels up and some birds that can sing.

I could talk about all the other games where you kick ass despite all odds but that would be a long list.

Wow. Ike had way shittier odds than I originally thought, my bad. Then I guess corrin's main problem would be getting support for his cause. Which he didn't... attempt...OK I concede, I can't defend corrin after that realalisation. That guy made some bad plays during conquest.

[arvilino]

Let's take a look at Ike's odds. On his side he has a small remnant of his side's forces and a goddess who's only powers are to protect them from instantly turning to stone and to empower their weapons. They face a large group of the goddess favored Begnion army, the Black Knight, Sephiran, an ARMY OF DRAGONS and then the goddess herself who can turn the population of a continent to stone simply by sneezing. RD endgame is you pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and punching God in the face. Ike has a sword that levels up and some birds that can sing.

I could talk about all the other games where you kick ass despite all odds but that would be a long list.

I don't think you're representing that accurately. Ashera has Begnion Army, Black Knight, Sephiran, Dhenginsea and the Dragons and her own goddess powers. Ike has only the most elite forces of Crimea's Royal Knights, Begnion's Holy Knight commanders, Daein's general, Greil Mercenaries and three to four Laguz Kings/Queens and their top commanders and one half of the exact same goddess he's fighting. In some regards it's arguable by part 4 Ike's forces are superior in all but number not even including himself. By the time Ike reaches the tower, he has together plot-wise the most powerful, legendary or seasoned forces across the entire series and he's backing a god into a corner.

In Corrin's case his forces are Garon's forces. Garon has all the authority and his four greatest allies are still loyal to Garon regardless of how much they love him/her.

[BrightBow]

I don't think you're representing that accurately. Ashera has Begnion Army, Black Knight, Sephiran, Dhenginsea and the Dragons and her own goddess powers. Ike has only the most elite forces of Crimea's Royal Knights, Begnion's Holy Knight commanders, Daein's general, Greil Mercenaries and three to four Laguz Kings/Queens and their top commanders and one half of the exact same goddess he's fighting. In some regards it's arguable by part 4 Ike's forces are superior in all but number not even including himself. By the time Ike reaches the tower, he has together plot-wise the most powerful, legendary or seasoned forces across the entire series and he's backing a god into a corner.

In Corrin's case his forces are Garon's forces. Garon has all the authority and his four greatest allies are still loyal to Garon regardless of how much they love him/her.

In addition, Ashera has half of the Begnion Central Army and the entire population of Goldoa sans Kurth and Ena at her side while Ike only has a few dozen comrades. She also blessed all the weapons and armors off all her followers while Ike's group has to fight with their natural abilities. She can teleport her troops anywhere and should they die, she can even resurrect them and have them fight again. As for her counterpart, Yune several times specifically states that she has next to no power currently and therefore doesn't offer much support besides helping Ike, Sothe and Micaiah to their promotion.

Edit: I think it's also worth noting that as far as the people of Tellius are concerned, Ashera is God. Not just any god but the omnipotent creator of the world and all life. Imagine we would find out that God is not only very real but also our enemy.

Edited February 25, 2016 by BrightBow

[Jave]

But that's how it was originally written; someone was trying to use something exclusive to the localized version in part of his defense, so I informed them otherwise.

I was under the impression that this was a "what were the writers thinking" discussion.

The problem with bringing in the original Japanese version into the argument is that since not everyone has played it, it makes every argument dubious due to people not knowing what happened in the original version. The OP was done with the localized version in mind, so it makes sense to reply in the context of that version.

I also take everything in the fan translation of the Japanese version with a grain of salt. I'm not bringing down the work of the translation team in any way, but with a script that big, and translated in such a short span of time, it's inevitable that several things in the story got lost in translation.

[arvilino]

In addition, Ashera has half of the Begnion Central Army and the entire population of Goldoa sans Kurth and Ena at her side while Ike only has a few dozen comrades. She also blessed all the weapons and armors off all her followers while Ike's group has to fight with their natural abilities. She can teleport her troops anywhere and should they die, she can even resurrect them and have them fight again. As for her counterpart, Yune several times specifically states that she has next to no power currently and therefore doesn't offer much support besides helping Ike, Sothe and Micaiah to their promotion.

Edit: I think it's also worth noting that as far as the people of Tellius are concerned, Ashera is God. Not just any god but the omnipotent creator of the world and all life. Imagine we would find out that God is not only very real but also our enemy.

That doesn't mean much when Ike has the closest thing to literal Superheroes on his side(Laguz King/Queens) who are important for being powerful and Yune has exactly the powers they need to prevent being instantly wiped. It only speaks of how at that point in time Ike's forces grew so powerful that only a god could possibly challenge them at that point hence how "all odds" weren't against Ike.