Did nationalism affect development?

[semolinaro]

I finished Conquest last week and now I'm onto Birthright. In my honest opinion, Conquest's story was just plain awful in many aspects... so much so that it even took away from the stellar gameplay. Story is so important to me, it's what motivates me to play through the challenges of the game. Among the many things, the worst offender of the plot is how black and white the two warring kingdoms are. And it's hard to overlook.

Nohr bad, Hoshido good. That's it. No skeletons in the closet for Hoshido. You can't make a game about a moral choice when one side is clearly the good 'right choice' and the other is evil with no redeeming qualities. After what went down in the Hoshido capital and what Garon tried to do to you with the Ganglari, you look like a total idiot for siding with Nohr. And to make matters worse, the good side is the 'all righteous GLORIOUS NIPPON.' It's so blatant it hurts, it just reeks of nationalism. Japan, while it's an awesome country in many ways, constantly denies its past wrongdoings. Their atrocities in WWII make the nazis look like boy scouts, and children in schools are fed lies about their histories and that they 'helped' the countries they invaded. I can't help but feel like nationalism influenced the development of the game, because in past fire emblems, the wars were never so black and white. Even the war between Ylisse and Plegia in Awakening demonstrated some good grey morality: Plegians were committing grave war crimes and atrocities against Ylisse, but only because Ylisse's previous ruler crusaded their country and pillaged and plundered them to the bare, and even sent their own people into the pits. Each one is an offender, no one is holy, and it gave me a new outlook on how I view Ylisse, a supposedly peaceful halidom with a brutal past and some skeletons in the closet.

I don't know, maybe I'm reading into this too much, but I'm also curious as to what people think about this.

[Roflolxp54]

You're probably reading too much into it, not to mention that Hoshido does have its own "skeletons in the closet":

-Hoshido is responsible for the kidnapping of Azura from Nohr (as payback to Nohr for kidnapping Corrin)

-The slaughter of the wolfskin tribe in Birthright (though that is instigated by Nohr)

-Hoshidans (such as Takumi) being racist towards those perceived as Nohrian (like Azura, which can be seen in Conquest)

Edited February 29, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[Thane]

I don't think it's nationalism so much as it is bad writing - and as has been discussed here many times before, the West is just as guilty of doing the same. I'm not saying that's an excuse, but I will say that it's common.

But yes, Conquest's story is absolutely dreadful.

[semolinaro]

I don't think it's nationalism so much as it is bad writing - and as has been discussed here many times before, the West is just as guilty of doing the same. I'm not saying that's an excuse, but I will say that it's common.

But yes, Conquest's story is absolutely dreadful.

Good point! I was just downright shocked at how black and white everything is portrayed, and lacking solid worldbuilding to go along with it. And as mentioned by Roflolxp54, while Hoshido has done a few questionable things, it can't even compare to the barbarism of Garon and Nohr.

Wasn't Conquest's story just awful? Like... so many deaths could have been prevented, and Azura is an absolute airhead. I could rant all day but I'm sure it's already been discussed. I did end up reading your post about Conquest's story and agreed with all of it (even chuckled at how accurate your summary was).

Edited February 29, 2016 by semolinaro

[Tolvir]

The problem was inexperienced writing. This was the writers first venture into video games as opposed to tv like they were used to. This large of a project, where you have three sides to write about, 2 with at least 20 characters, and the third with all of them. Three points of view, a bad guy, and the moral complexity needed for Nohr, is a massive undertaking for someone who wrote for only television for the longest time, and I think only anime on top of that.

[Azure Sen]

The problem was inexperienced writing. This was the writers first venture into video games as opposed to tv like they were used to. This large of a project, where you have three sides to write about, 2 with at least 20 characters, and the third with all of them. Three points of view, a bad guy, and the moral complexity needed for Nohr, is a massive undertaking for someone who wrote for only television for the longest time, and I think only anime on top of that.

Are you talking about Shin Kibayashi? He's a mangaka, yeah, but he only wrote the initial draft of the story. It's difficult to say how much of his original draft remains in the current game script, because as he himself said there was a whole writing team behind it (and that's not taking into consideration the changes made during localization). Different people definitely wrote the supports (and you can tell).

Anyway, regarding the topic at hand, I don't think nationalism had anything to do with the game's writing. Hoshido and Nohr definitely hit a lot of the stock traits in FE for the "good" and "bad" countries. It seems to me that people are only bringing up nationalism is because, instead of being European-inspired like Altea, Renais, Lycia, etc., Hoshido is the first "good guy" nation to be distinctly Japanese-inspired.

[Thane]

Are you talking about Shin Kibayashi? He's a mangaka, yeah, but he only wrote the initial draft of the story. It's difficult to say how much of his original draft remains in the current game script, because as he himself said there was a whole writing team behind it (and that's not taking into consideration the changes made during localization). Different people definitely wrote the supports (and you can tell).

You're telling me there's a difference between main story Xander and support Xander? Golly, I had failed to notice.

[Roflolxp54]

For the case of Nohr...

-much of the atrocities are instigated by Garon, Hans, and Iago (that's a few people)

-at the very least, a good amount of the ordinary people of Nohr, such as those in Cheve and the Ice Tribe, don't support Garon

-an underground town (both figuratively and literally) exists in Nohr so that people can live in relative safety from supporters of Garon

-Birthright (which is considered to have arguably the best story out of the 3 routes) portrayed the Nohrian royal siblings in a more sympathetic light, which you wouldn't expect in a rather nationalistic approach to the story considering that Birthright has you supporting Hoshido

-there is an entertainment city in Nohr that is a popular vacation/tourist spot for both Nohrians and Hoshidans even during wartime (the city where the Opera house is)

-limited resources are supposedly the main reason that Nohr goes to war in the first place (explained in Birthright)

And yes, the writing is all over the place, likely because there may have been multiple writers having different ideas that don't sync up well. Like I've heard that the Hidden Truth DLC has the Awakening kids supposedly having major roles in the stories of Fates but in reality, they're only minor characters in the big picture.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[Alazen]

Awakening was just as black and white as Fates is.

First off, Plegia is a nation that worships a genocidal human loathing dragon. Awakening never addresses what Grima had to sell his worshipers for them to worship him to begin with, not even to say he was faking. With this considered, the whole ''Papa Exalt crusaded Plegia'' point falls flat for how it really serves to glorify Emmeryn and demonize Gangrel. Plegia had no named enemy characters besides Token Mustafa who weren't mustache twirlers. The playable Plegians (ignoring the SpotPass map bosses) consist of a stalker girl and a boy acts like war is a game.

Valm doesn't help either. What Walhart is fighting for ends up underexplored while his goons besides Token Yen'fay are either fanatics and/or mustache twirlers. Walhart points out that he and Chrom are more alike than the latter notices only to get brushed off.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Alazen

[Etrurian emperor]

I don't think nationalism is explicitly to blame. Actually if nationalism was at play then you'd think Japan of all places would show a more sympathetic side to a resource poor nation which commits war crimes because it feels that is the only way they can survive.

Perhaps Hoshido being goody two shoes had something to do with a Japanese bias but I don't think it went so far as to actively demonize the European nation. They did demonize Norh but I don't think nationalism was the reason though I'm not quite sure what WOULD be the reason for it.

[Etrurian emperor]

Awakening was just as black and white as Fates is.

First off, Plegia is a nation that worships a genocidal human loathing dragon. Awakening never addresses what Grima had to sell his worshipers for them to worship him to begin with, not even to say he was faking. With this considered, the whole ''Papa Exalt crusaded Plegia'' point falls flat for how it really serves to glorify Emmeryn and demonize Gangrel. Plegia had no named enemy characters besides Token Mustafa who weren't mustache twirlers. The playable Plegians (ignoring the SpotPass map bosses) consist of a stalker girl and a boy acts like war is a game.

Valm doesn't help either. What Walhart is fighting for ends up underexplored while his goons besides Token Yen'fay are either fanatics and/or mustache twirlers. Walhart points out that he and Chrom are more alike than the latter notices only to get brushed off.

That is true to an extend. Plegia never evolves past ''evil nation'' in any part of the story.

But it matters much less in Awakening because you're not supposed to be on Plegia's side. In Fates Norh is supposed to have their valid reasons for choosing them but it doesn't(Well it does but the game ignores it). There is family love but the nation and their actions itself are being depicted as clearly in the wrong, its generals are all psychopaths and the justification of them being to poor to survive is ignored in favor of showing said psychopaths.

[Alazen]

The point is that how black and white the Nohr VS Hoshido war is actually rooted in Awakening. In case you didn't tell, there was a shift in narrative design that was cemented in Awakening.

[semolinaro]

That is true to an extend. Plegia never evolves past ''evil nation'' in any part of the story.

But it matters much less in Awakening because you're not supposed to be on Plegia's side. In Fates Norh is supposed to have their valid reasons for choosing them but it doesn't(Well it does but the game ignores it). There is family love but the nation and their actions itself are being depicted as clearly in the wrong, its generals are all psychopaths and the justification of them being to poor to survive is ignored in favor of showing said psychopaths.

THIS. There is absolutely no justification for joining Nohr other than not turning your back on your siblings, which is not even a good enough reason since they all follow Garon blindly and for some reason refuse to believe that he tried to kill you. And to make matters worse, when you do end up joining Nohr, you're just trying to 'save' the Hoshidans by... mass murdering their army and conquering their country.

[goldenlance7]

For the case of Nohr...

-much of the atrocities are instigated by Garon, Hans, and Iago (that's a few people)

-at the very least, a good amount of the ordinary people of Nohr, such as those in Cheve and the Ice Tribe, don't support Garon

-an underground town (both figuratively and literally) exists in Nohr so that people can live in relative safety from supporters of Garon

-Birthright (which is considered to have arguably the best story out of the 3 routes) portrayed the Nohrian royal siblings in a more sympathetic light, which you wouldn't expect in a rather nationalistic approach to the story considering that Birthright has you supporting Hoshido

-there is an entertainment city in Nohr that is a popular vacation/tourist spot for both Nohrians and Hoshidans even during wartime (the city where the Opera house is)

-limited resources are supposedly the main reason that Nohr goes to war in the first place (explained in Birthright)

And yes, the writing is all over the place, likely because there may have been multiple writers having different ideas that don't sync up well. Like I've heard that the Hidden Truth DLC has the Awakening kids supposedly having major roles in the stories of Fates but in reality, they're only minor characters in the big picture.

was the opera house stated to be in Nohr I thought it was a neutral country on its own?

[NekoKnight]

Hoshido does have its own "skeletons in the closet":

-Hoshido is responsible for the kidnapping of Azura from Nohr (as payback to Nohr for kidnapping Corrin)

-The slaughter of the wolfskin tribe in Birthright (though that is instigated by Nohr)

-Hoshidans (such as Takumi) being racist towards those perceived as Nohrian (like Azura, which can be seen in Conquest)

-Retaliation against Nohr who also murdered their king

-A conflict set up by Nohr that the Hoshidans wanted to avoid

-One individual who had both of his parents murdered by Nohrians. (I'll give you hating Aqua though)

I'm not seeing Hoshido being portrayed as very negative here.

was the opera house stated to be in Nohr I thought it was a neutral country on its own?

Muse is a neutral country, although Garon seems to do what he pleases there.

[General Banzai]

Remember Grado? Remember Daein? Remember when Intelligent Systems could do antagonistic nations well?

[NB8]

Remember Grado? Remember Daein? Remember when Intelligent Systems could do antagonistic nations well?

Now that you mention it, I wonder who is behind the writing of Conquest.

Because he needs some tips to write a decent story.

[NB8]

I thought that they would change the history of Conquist completely after localization, but nope, it remains almost the same.

[Dark Paladin X]

I wouldn't say nationalism or politics play an important role. If it did, then we wouldn't have several Nohrian characters portrayed in a sympathetic light or have certain Nohrian characters with tragic backstories.

I will say, however, that cultural favoritism played an important part in regards to the story writing. The writers wanted a Fire Emblem game that has appeal to both western and Japanese audiences, but keep in mind that this is a Japanese game developer we are talking about. Apparently, the cultural favoritism would lean towards Hoshido (which is obviously based out of Japan) in this case. Hence, this is why the Birthright route is portrayed as the "right" path while the Conquest route is portrayed as being "morally questionable."

This "cultural favoritism" also plays an important role in regards to the ethical dilemma between siding with the family that raised you (the Nohrian siblings) and the family you are "born with" (the Hoshido siblings). Now, in western culture, people don't mind if a child decides to stay with the family that adopted him/her or go with the birth family. However, in Japan, it's highly preferred that the child stays with his/her birth family. This is mainly because Japanese want their children to accept his/her lineage and accept the fact that even if his/her parents passed away and ended up being raised by an adopted family, they believe that the love from his/her birth family will always be stronger than from an adopted family. Hence, this is why child adoptions are incredibly rare in Japan and many Asian countries (it's also not uncommon in anime that the child character orphaned would have his/her aunt, uncle, grandparents, or even their eldest sibling taking care of them as well).

[Alazen]

You know a series that handled the antagonist nation better than how Fates' handled Nohr? Avatar: The Last Airbender

The Fire Nation, being at least in part modeled on Showa Japan was presented as a nation going around performing genocide in its conquest spree. It was noted that the Fire Nation's conquest spree under Sozin was pushed on the grounds of sharing the FN's prosperity with the rest of the world. Ozai was the final boss, but it was shown he was raised to be a conqueror within the FN's royal family.

There was also shady or villainous characters in the defending nations like Jet and Long Feng.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Alazen

[FluffyWarlock]

Duh. Hell, the original names of some of the Hoshidan characters are even straight-up names given to Imperial Japan battleships!

[Time the Crestfallen]

You know a series that handled the antagonist nation better than how Fates' handled Nohr? Avatar: The Last Airbender

The Fire Nation, being at least in part modeled on Showa Japan was presented as a nation going around performing genocide in its conquest spree. It was noted that the Fire Nation's conquest spree under Sozin was pushed on the grounds of sharing the FN's prosperity with the rest of the world. Ozai was the final boss, but it was shown he was raised to be a conqueror within the FN's royal family.

There was also shady or villainous characters in the defending nations like Jet and Long Feng.

Funny that you bring that up, since the Last Airbender is unpopular in Japan because the Fire Nation was based on Imperial Japan. They really don't like acknowledging Imperial Japan...

[BrightBow]

If it was just the premise of this game, I wouldn't put much thought in this theory and simply dismiss it as bad writing. But the thing is, this is a thought that crossed my mind a lot back in Awakening, specifically the Plegian arc.

This whole attitude of the arc was disturbing, how the victims of war have to stop being so damn butthurt about their country being ravaged (after only 15 years) while all Emmeryn has to do is not to deny Ylisse's past wrongdoings and not to do it again, which somehow makes her this great person that the game claims she is. The initiator of an unjust war does not need to apologize. They don't have to ask for forgiveness, they are the real victims after all. And if their victims have a problem with that, then they are the baddies.

It's seemed to me like the kind of script someone would write who is totally on board with the people who want to whitewash Japan's role during World War 2. So I can easily imagine that there is more then bad writing going on, that there might be people with a very disturbing view on history and war involved with those last two games.

Edited March 2, 2016 by BrightBow

[Karis]

I agree with others, Awakening and Fates had a very bad way of writing the antagonistic nations. I felt it even worse in Fates, especially Conquest. Playing through Fates, there was no enemy unit you could talk to to make an ally. They were either green or came in halfway during the map or afterwards to say they join you.

The only enemy units you fought against in Conquest that later joined you after fighting them was Flora, Shura, and Kaze. Recruiting Flora is entirely optional and can be missed super easily if you never focused on the Turrets in My Castle. And the other two, Shura and Kaze, had zero real reason to join you other than you were nice and didn't kill them. You could even execute Shura instead if you wanted to for a sweet pair of Boots. Plus the two men were in both routes anyway, so Flora was the only Conquest-exclusive. And you were never reprimanded for letting Kaze into your army despite the fact he's clearly an Hoshido ninja and would have normally been executed immediately no matter what. Even Saizo just goes "yeah okay" after meeting him alone.

I really missed that part of FE where you could get through to certain people by talking. But no, be ready for nobody to listen to you at all until you beat their skulls in violently. And even then, a lot of them don't listen. So yeah, I'd chock it up to very bad writing over nationalism. Honestly, playing Birthright feels like the usual FE game, just with some whiny characters from the other side complaining at you.

[Alazen]

Kaze helping Corrin steamroll Hoshido really speaks of how the narrative goes out of its way not to villify Corron.

Corrin is the shining paragon who does nothing wrong. Therefore, Kaze can not be presented as doing something wrong by serving as Corrin's lackey.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Alazen