What was the point of hiring Shin Kibayashi?

[Rapier]

Now, I know that his draft was used as a basis for roughly the entire story of the game, but still, it doesn't make any sense to me that they hired a professional writer for their game, then had another team of writers alter so much of his draft that he himself recognizes the final product as something much different from his own idea, make a lot of amateurish writing mistakes and effectively waste good ideas and premises. This is like hiring an architect to design your home, then ditching their design and drawing something horrible of your own making.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Rapier

[Azure Sen]

Now, I know that his draft was used as a basis for roughly the entire story of the game, but still, it doesn't make any sense to me that they hired a professional writer for their game, then had another team of writers alter so much of his draft that he himself recognizes the final product as something much different from his own idea, make a lot of amateurish writing mistakes and effectively waste good ideas and premises. This is like hiring an architect to design your home, then ditching their design and drawing something horrible of your own making.

They didn't hire Kibayashi to write the whole script, they just hired him to write a ten-page plot summary for each route, bascially giving them the bare-bones plot for all three, and he ended up writing a 500 page script for each route.

Edited March 2, 2016 by AzureSen

[Thane]

I believe they mentioned in an interview they were all out of ideas and/or energy after going all out with Awakening, so someone mentioned wanting to write a story based on choice and that idea stuck. I don't remember how they got into contact with Kibayashi himself though.

As for his draft, we simply don't know what he wrote. Chances are a lot of things were more detailed but were scrapped for the sake of streamlining, and I've got no doubt that someone from high up wanted the game to sell like hotcakes and capitalize on Awakening's success, so more fan service was implemented and - I've got zero proof of this - story content was removed from Conquest and Birthright late into development to incentivize people to buy Revelation.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Thane

[Rapier]

They didn't hire Kibayashi to write the whole script, they just hired him to write a ten-page plot summary for each route, bascially giving them the bare-bones plot for all three, and he ended up writing a 500 page script for each route.

Yes, I remember, but the 500 page script probably has a lot more than a mere backbone for the three routes. They could've used what a professional wrote instead of what their writing team improvised based on someone else's writing.

Actually, why not hire Kibayashi or a professional writer to write the whole script, instead of tasking a minimally effective writing team for the task?

[Azure Sen]

I believe they mentioned in an interview they were all out of ideas and/or energy after going all out with Awakening, so someone mentioned wanting to write a story based on choice and that idea stuck. I don't remember how they got into contact with Kibayashi himself though.

According to the Iwata Asks that featured the Fates team, the project director Kouhei Maeda suggested Kibayashi during a discussion of possibly bringing in someone from outside the game industry to work on the writing.

Yes, I remember, but the 500 page script probably has a lot more than a mere backbone for the three routes. They could've used what a professional wrote instead of what their writing team improvised based on someone else's writing.

Actually, why not hire Kibayashi or a professional writer to write the whole script, instead of tasking a minimally effective writing team for the task?

It's easy to say that, but being a professional doesn't mean someone's writing is automatically good. Kibayashi is a good writer, at least in my experience, but even good writers can produce crap. We really can't say one way or the other what the quality of Kibayashi's original script was unless it leaks or something.

And honestly, the only reason why we know the writing team wasn't effective is because we have the hindsight. What reason would IntSys have at the time to doubt their writing team?

Edited March 2, 2016 by AzureSen

[Rapier]

It's easy to say that, but being a professional doesn't mean someone's writing is automatically good. Kibayashi is a good writer, at least in my experience, but even good writers can produce crap. We really can't say one way or the other what the quality of Kibayashi's original script was unless it leaks or something.

And honestly, the only reason why we know the writing team wasn't effective is because we have the hindsight. What reason would IntSys have at the time to doubt their writing team?

I know we can't, but the chances of a professional writer writing a better story are higher than a team of average writers', intuitively speaking.

We know Fates' story is lackluster because of hindsight, sure, but it is not as if we did not have the same experience with Awakening, an experience that IS recognized as lackluster because they admitted that story was one of Awakening's weaker points that fans complained about (which made them hire Kibayashi). I think it isn't such a logic leap to think that the same writing team won't do a much better work...

[IceBrand]

Was Fates under a deadline and the staff just decided to remove all extra details and try to keep as much coherence as possible?

[bookofholsety]

i dunno, it kind of makes sense to me. i figure that at the very least, kibayashi served a useful role as a big name to slap on promo material. i don't know how big he actually is, but hey, his presence on the project was like the first thing intsys wanted us to know about the game. that has to count for something

i was going to say more but then i realised i don't actually have much more i could say without actually seeing kibayashi's draft, so

[NeonZ]

Shin Kibayashi himself suggested keeping the story simple in order to give it broader appeal.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/what-fire-emblem-needs-to-continue-its-mini-renaissance

"We got the hint that the story has to be simple and easy to understand from a lot of people who will be playing the game, and that's sort of the idea that comes from the fact that he has been involved in a lot of stories, or manga, which is typically read by a lot of people," Maeda says. "So... to address a big crowd... it's sort of the idea that Mr. Kibayashi brought to us, and that has influences us in working on the story for this game."

Edited March 3, 2016 by NeonZ

[Sentinel07]

Shin Kibayashi himself suggested keeping the story simple in order to give it broader appeal.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/what-fire-emblem-needs-to-continue-its-mini-renaissance

That is incredibly ironic that they wanted it to be simple yet it ended up convoluted.

Seriously, Blazing Sword, Sacred Stones, and Path of Radiance have "simple" stories. Maybe they should look at those next time.

[Water Mage]

If I remember correctly,

Slime Garon was Kibayashi's idea

And Hinoka didn't exist in the original 500 page draft.

In fact Hinoka wasn't supposed to exist at all.

[The DanMan]

If I remember correctly,

Slime Garon was Kibayashi's idea

And Hinoka didn't exist in the original 500 page draft.

In fact Hinoka wasn't supposed to exist at all.

Yeah.

In general, I think what we got was fairly true to Kibiyashi's draft; it's just, well... a guy gives you 1,500 pages when you asked for 10. Quantity of quality should've been expected.

As-is, Kibiyashi's best contribution to the game was My Castle being online (he actually suggested that, according to the Iwata Asks).

[IceBrand]

I wonder if the original draft will ever see the light of day at some point.

[Water Mage]

Yeah.

In general, I think what we got was fairly true to Kibiyashi's draft; it's just, well... a guy gives you 1,500 pages when you asked for 10. Quantity of quality should've been expected.

As-is, Kibiyashi's best contribution to the game was My Castle being online (he actually suggested that, according to the Iwata Asks).

This may sound wrong, but...perhaps we gave Kibayashi a little too much credit.

[Locke087]

This may sound wrong, but...perhaps we gave Kibayashi a little too much credit.

Well if IS hires another writer for FE 15 and they mess it up again then I think we will have a good idea who is messing up the scripts...

[Kanethedragon]

That is incredibly ironic that they wanted it to be simple yet it ended up convoluted.

#obligatorystarbombreference in 3...2...1...

[NekoKnight]

This may sound wrong, but...perhaps we gave Kibayashi a little too much credit.

Possibly. Gooron was his idea apparently. I suspect the story suffered from cut content out of the original draft but we really have no idea how good his original ideas were. I want to know what kind of villains Kibayashi had in mind. I refuse to believe a professional writer had the likes of Garon and Iago as the principle antagonists of the first two routes.

As for his draft, we simply don't know what he wrote. Chances are a lot of things were more detailed but were scrapped for the sake of streamlining, and I've got no doubt that someone from high up wanted the game to sell like hotcakes and capitalize on Awakening's success, so more fan service was implemented and - I've got zero proof of this - story content was removed from Conquest and Birthright late into development to incentivize people to buy Revelation.

This seems a likely possibility. The plots of both Nohr and Hoshido feel meandering and filler-like in their first half. I think the writing woes were a combination of locking story details behind a DLC exclusive route and the IS writers making a sloppy, abridged adaption of Kibayashi's script.

Edited March 3, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

This seems a likely possibility. The plots of both Nohr and Hoshido feel meandering and filler-like in their first half. I think the writing woes were a combination of locking story details behind a DLC exclusive route and the IS writers making a sloppy, abridged adaption of Kibiyashi's script.

The funny thing is, it feels like Revelation got some stuff cut out of it to. Conquest and Birthright have filler first-halves while Revelation feels like we're starting three chapters in. I mean, you start Chapter 7 going straight to Valla and having all the exposition dumped on you right out the gate and then you start recruiting characters left, right and center up until Chapter 17, so it feels to me like there's at least a bit of content missing at the start.

Also, have you seen any Dark Souls 3 videos? Because guess what.

[spoiler=Don't read if you don't want Spoilers]

Andre the Blacksmith is back!

[NekoKnight]

The funny thing is, it feels like Revelation got some stuff cut out of it to. Conquest and Birthright have filler first-halves while Revelation feels like we're starting three chapters in. I mean, you start Chapter 7 going straight to Valla and having all the exposition dumped on you right out the gate and then you start recruiting characters left, right and center up until Chapter 17, so it feels to me like there's at least a bit of content missing at the start.

Also, have you seen any Dark Souls 3 videos? Because guess what.

[spoiler=Don't read if you don't want Spoilers]

Andre the Blacksmith is back!

I haven't played Revelation but I think they should have just taken a selection of the cast instead of including everyone minus a few Kamui-sexuals. They could have focused both on the story AND game balance (I'm told that a lot of characters join with shit bases) with a tighter cast. Maybe they could even give Hinoka a role.

Haven't seen much Dark Souls 3. Working on a game backlog atm

[Time the Crestfallen]

I haven't played Revelation but I think they should have just taken a selection of the cast instead of including everyone minus a few Kamui-sexuals. They could have focused both on the story AND game balance (I'm told that a lot of characters join with shit bases) with a tighter cast. Maybe they could even give Hinoka a role.

Haven't seen much Dark Souls 3. Working on a game backlog atm

They probably could've lengthened the story a bit more by not diving straight into the main plot and recruiting.

Maybe not going to Valla until Chapter 10 or something?

The cast probably could've been fine if it was Kamui, Azura and the Royals + retainers. The cast is a bit too big for Revelation.

[spoiler=Dark Souls stuff]

That's fair. I'm just glad to have the fuzzy-haired blacksmith back though!

[The DanMan]

This may sound wrong, but...perhaps we gave Kibayashi a little too much credit.

I wasn't expecting anything amazing, just half-decent. But it was mentioned he's a very busy man... yet he found time to right a whopping 1500 pages.

It doesn't take a genius to assume that maybe they weren't that great in the first place. Plus, when have initial drafts ever been better than the final product?

[NeonZ]

I think Revelation main mistake is leaving all the "revelations" to Azura herself. If there were some Revelation exclusive character that took that role (another survivor from Valla) it'd fit in much better with the other routes.

[Pretty_Handsome]

I believe they mentioned in an interview they were all out of ideas and/or energy after going all out with Awakening, so someone mentioned wanting to write a story based on choice and that idea stuck. I don't remember how they got into contact with Kibayashi himself though.

As for his draft, we simply don't know what he wrote. Chances are a lot of things were more detailed but were scrapped for the sake of streamlining, and I've got no doubt that someone from high up wanted the game to sell like hotcakes and capitalize on Awakening's success, so more fan service was implemented and - I've got zero proof of this - story content was removed from Conquest and Birthright late into development to incentivize people to buy Revelation.

Seems to be the case as Scarlet has like no Supports and vanishes in the story. Not even dialogue vs Garon.

That and Camilla and Leo should have joined you in Birthright....

[The DanMan]

I think Revelation main mistake is leaving all the "revelations" to Azura herself. If there were some Revelation exclusive character that took that role (another survivor from Valla) it'd fit in much better with the other routes.

I think Revelation's main mistake was existing.

They say they wanted a simpler plot? Then no need for a bunch of confusing greater-scope villain stuff and contrivances; just focus on the conflict between Hoshido and Nohr, with neither route getting it all.

[NeonZ]

I think Revelation's main mistake was existing.

They say they wanted a simpler plot? Then no need for a bunch of confusing greater-scope villain stuff and contrivances; just focus on the conflict between Hoshido and Nohr, with neither route getting it all.

The story is simple enough and sets up the villain from the start and the contrivance only exists due to Azura's role (even though it doesn't explain why she doesn't reveal everything in Conquest). Remove her knowledge that's pointless in the other routes, giving it to some Revelations-only character that only meets Kamui there and then suddenly you won't need the "you can't talk about Valla" stuff either.

A route where both royal families fight together has some potential. It just didn't need everyone else there. Cut the neutral characters that already are in both Norh and Hoshido at least. Also, limit the resources of the Castle, rather than just giving it twice as much.