So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Tolvir]

It's a game of politics. Do you understand how games of politics works?

Sometimes you have to play along to do the right thing. You go to war with Hoshido, yes. However, you deliberately take a path that will minimize the need to just kill everything. You ARE still changing Nohr from the inside. Nobody said it would be easy. Nobody said it would be bloodless.

It's a game of politics.

It's like living in Orlais. You have to play the game to survive, even if that results in doing things you disagree with, for the sake of doing something good.

The Avatar expected Hans to obey her orders. That was the general idea. You can't blame it all on the Avatar due to a miscommunication. Hans was SUPPOSEDLY put under the Avatar's command. If the Avatar didn't go there to end things however, the result would of been much more disastrous for everyone involved.

Something I am kind of noticing about the Conquest haters. None of them seem to take the politics of the situation into consideration. You can't just charge against Garon head on and win. Even more people are going to end up dead if you go that way. Its a game of chess, if you go straight for the king in the beginning, you are not going to win. You have to trick your opponent, play mind games, and catch them when they are vulnerable.

[Abysswalker25]

I know he had no intention of killing her, but it happened. And Corrin is to blame, intentional or not.

I don't know how to respond to you about this anymore because I really cannot see how it is Corrin's fault Hans shows up out of the blue and kills people without his knowledge when it was something he didn't expect and clearly didn't want to happen.

[Fallaner]

Except in their Iwata Asks interview, Kibayashi confirmed that he was going for a story where both sides would be morally grey; the "evil" faction wouldn't actually be as evil as they first appeared, and the "good" faction wouldn't be as good as they first appeared. How much of this was excised from the script by the IS writing team is unknown, but the point is, they promised it and we didn't get it.

I still see both sides as gray though. Sure differing degrees of gray, but still gray.

It could simply be a bias of seeing things gray (or on the other side, a bias to see things in Black and White), but I still see things in gray. Not all of Nohr is bad, and not all of Hoshido is good. It is a gray set up.

[semolinaro]

[spoiler=Revelation/DLC spoilers]The Dragon thing is KINDA explained in Revelation covertly (through ancient texts if you decode them) and in a DLC. The Avatar is the child of Anankos. Like DIRECT child. Literal, direct descendant. Anankos is their daddy. Their daddy is the silent dragon who eventually tries to kill everything. As you basically have direct dragon blood, it's probably why you can turn into a dragon and the others can't. They may be descended from dragons or have a bit of their power, but you are literally half ancient dragon.

I absolutely can't wait for revelations as I really hope it ties things together once and for all. You seem to be a big fan of that path. How is it superior to the other paths? I don't mind spoilers of you wanna share!

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I love how Hans going out of control and murdering Scarlet is getting blamed on Corrin for convenience.

Corrin had no intention of hurting Scarlet. They only intended to injure the rebels so that it would appear that they were following King Garon's orders. When Corrin found out that Hans was doing that, they were completely horrified and tried to order Hans to stop. Unfortunately they couldn't stop Hans at the time since Hans was acting on King Garon's orders, so if Corrin stopped Hans and it got back to King Garon everything would be ruined.

ironically, corrin gets the blame for this in universe as well.

never mind that takumi shot at corrin and elise first and started the fight and wouldn't let negotiations take place, so in actuality its takumi's fault this happen in the first place, long as we disregard *SPOILERS*

[BruceLee]

They only intended to injure the rebels so that it would appear that they were following King Garon's orders.

And then what? Explain to me how this was a good idea.

[Azure Sen]

Something I am kind of noticing about the Conquest haters. None of them seem to take the politics of the situation into consideration. You can't just charge against Garon head on and win. Even more people are going to end up dead if you go that way. Its a game of chess, if you go straight for the king in the beginning, you are not going to win. You have to trick your opponent, play mind games, and catch them when they are vulnerable.

EDIT: I am just full of technical errors tonight.

To summarize what I was going to say: politics aren't the problem here, nor are there presented as the reason why the royal sibs refuse to rebel against Garon.

Edited March 4, 2016 by AzureSen

[Water Mage]

It's a game of politics. Do you understand how games of politics works?

Sometimes you have to play along to do the right thing. You go to war with Hoshido, yes. However, you deliberately take a path that will minimize the need to just kill everything. You ARE still changing Nohr from the inside. Nobody said it would be easy. Nobody said it would be bloodless.

It's a game of politics.

It's like living in Orlais. You have to play the game to survive, even if that results in doing things you disagree with, for the sake of doing something good.

The Avatar expected Hans to obey her orders. That was the general idea. You can't blame it all on the Avatar due to a miscommunication. Hans was SUPPOSEDLY put under the Avatar's command. If the Avatar didn't go there to end things however, the result would of been much more disastrous for everyone involved.

Well, Corrin did expect it to be easy and bloodless when he was talking Kilme.

And Scarlet's death is Corrin's fault.

Why?

After Hans's stunt in the Bottomless Canyon, where he was also supposedly under Corrin's command, did Corrin seriously expect to Hans to behave himself in Cheve?

Corrin knew what Hans was capable of when he/she left Scarlet after defeating her.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Water Mage

[BruceLee]

I don't know how to respond to you about this anymore because I really cannot see how it is Corrin's fault Hans shows up out of the blue and kills people without his knowledge when it was something he didn't expect and clearly didn't want to happen.

Stop being childish. I've explained multiple times now on the previous page to people saying the same things as you how Corrin is to blame. If you wanna argue refute those posts, don't say the same stuff i've already responded to.

[Tolvir]

ironically, corrin gets the blame for this in universe as well.

never mind that takumi shot at corrin and elise first and started the fight and wouldn't let negotiations take place, so in actuality its takumi's fault this happen in the first place, long as we disregard *SPOILERS*

Well, they don't like to admit Takumi is wrong for anything so I am not surprised. Takumi could be shooting arrows into Nohrian children and they would say that they had it coming before admitting that Takumi was in the wrong.

[Esme]

The thing that disappoints me the most about Nohr is how cartoonishly evil Garon is.

He even does the whole "mwahahaha" twirly-mustache shit. It's so stupid.

[Camilla]

And then what? Explain to me how this was a good idea.

Because it's completely necessary? It's not like Corrin can just kill/injure Hans at that time without getting killed by King Garon. They also can't refuse an order from Garon without getting killed on the spot. King Garon and Iago are already suspicious of Corrin and they are trying to make them prove their loyalty. They are waiting for any excuse they can get to kill Corrin. Corrin needs to appear loyal while biding their time and waiting for the right time to act.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Well, they don't like to admit Takumi is wrong for anything so I am not surprised. Takumi could be shooting arrows into Nohrian children and they would say that they had it coming before admitting that Takumi was in the wrong.

there is a reason why #blametakumi was a meme when the game first came out.

Because it's completely necessary? It's not like Corrin can just kill/injure Hans at that time without getting killed by King Garon. They also can't refuse an order from Garon without getting killed on the spot. King Garon and Iago are already suspicious of Corrin and they are trying to make them prove their loyalty. They are waiting for any excuse they can get to kill Corrin. Corrin needs to appear loyal while biding their time and waiting for the right time to act.

stats tie into the story right? cause if i remember correctly these characters have stats that you can't quite compete with at that point of the game.

[Fallaner]

I absolutely can't wait for revelations as I really hope it ties things together once and for all. You seem to be a big fan of that path. How is it superior to the other paths? I don't mind spoilers of you wanna share!

I am a HUGE fan.

[spoiler=Revelation Spoilers. Only read if you want to be spoiled. MAJORLY. LIKE SUPER MAJOR END-GAME SPOILERS. LIKE MAJOR PLOT SPOILERS. I DID TRY TO AVOID THEM AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, BUT IT'S HARD.] For one thing, Gunter has a HUGELY important role.

You also have full access to the royal families, and get to learn what the deal is with the Rainbow Sage (Though you would of guessed it by now if you were me, I mean "I who forged the sacred blade. I who committed the greatest sin"?) along with learning more about Yato.

You get to learn who wrote Azura's song (It was Anankos himself, thus the passages referring to Revelation), and you get to speak to Mikoto some more and even meet Sumeragi (Originally possessed, after beating him you get to speak to him as well, himself, before he dies)

You get to see where Garon's dragon form comes from with it's weird eye thing.

You get to kill Hans and Iago LIKE HALFWAY IN, AND THEY NEVER COME BACK.

Omega Yato looks really cool (I mean... Chainsaw Sword with purple flame. It looks cool.)

It hurts at the start (you only get Azura, Jakob and the Avatar for Chapter 6 and most of 7, where you get Gunter about 4/5s through the map).

You get to explore Valla and learn more about it. You get to see just how much the Retainers and royals respect you (Scarlet points out that they'd do pretty much anything for you when you tell them too. They won't jump into the Bottomless Canyon on their own... but they'll do it in an instant if you tell them too).

You get to become Queen/King of Valla at the end.

Valla looks really cool.

You learn where the damned Faceless come from (Anankos kinda makes em. You see someone get turned into a Faceless due to him).

You learn who the Hooded Man was (It's possessed Sumeragi).

You get unique Revelation-Only supports and marriage possibilities (Like one of my personal favorites, XanderxSakura).

You get a critical quote that sounds actually unique instead of being "Copy/Paste loyalty crit quote, just change the nation name to fit", that being "I make my own fate!" It also sounds good, unlike "For Hoshido!"

You get Xander/Ryoma Support (and A+ Support between them)

You get the best final boss theme for the game (The End of All [below])

The story itself is really quite compelling and Anankos feels like a far more dangerous enemy than Garon, and one you SHOULD focus on.

Need I say more?

[Abysswalker25]

Stop being childish. I've explained multiple times now on the previous page to people saying the same things as you how Corrin is to blame. If you wanna argue refute those posts, don't say the same stuff i've already responded to.

Was this needed?

Also sometimes people post before I do and we end up saying the same things more or less.

[BruceLee]

Corrin needs to appear loyal while biding their time and waiting for the right time to act.

When is the right time to act? After he's done going on Garon's errands of shutting down all rebellions that share his goal? Sorry, still makes no sense to me.

@abysswalker

my bad then bro. i thought you were doing it on purpose.

Edited March 4, 2016 by BruceLee

[Tolvir]

EDIT: I am just full of technical errors tonight.

To summarize what I was going to say: politics aren't the problem here, nor are there presented as the reason why the royal sibs refuse to rebel against Garon.

Well, it is. What do you call being held at the tip of a sword and being told to do what to do? You can't charge head on against that when he has two powerful lackeys and an entire army at his side, you have to start dismantling things piece by piece. You have to trick him, play mind games with him, catch him when he is vulnerable. I am pretty sure both Iago and Hans would wipe the floor with you if you tried to fight them early on. Even worst with Garon since Iago and Hans clearly answer to him. If those two answer to him, then Garon is clearly even more powerful. Early on in the game you can't really do that. Its like expecting Ike to fight the Black Knight in chapter 10 I think it was where he shows up at the harbor. He isn't going to win that, he will get his ass whipped in that fight.

[NekoKnight]

the singer part is more hilarious if corrin is married to her.

"I'VE SEEN HER NAKED IN THE BED BUT WITH THOSE BLACK CLOTHS ON AND A VEIL I CAN'T QUITE FIGURE OUT WHO IT IS"

That's the problem, he's so accustomed to seeing her naked, she's like a stranger when she puts more clothes on.

I honestly don't think Conquest Corrin is stupid. Deciding to fix a problem by going to the root of it while also trying to guide the siblings who you grew up with on the right path just isn't a stupid decision imo. Honestly, I personally think it makes more sense for the avatar to go back to Nohr rather than staying in Hoshido. That way the avatar can remain loyal to the family they are actually close to, guide said family on the right path, and see first hand what is really going on in Nohr and figure out how to solve it from within. It felt to me like the avatar was trying to help both families and remain as loyal as possible to both in Conquest more so than in Hoshido.

Sure would be nice if all that "guidance" and "reform" was in the game.

[spoiler=MAJOR CONQUEST SPOILERS]Given that the Nohr siblings do eventually kill him and Iago and all of their soldiers in Conquest 26 when Iago and Hanz try to kill Corrin with the excuse of "well the Hoshidan remnants clearly killed them and their enitre army" at the ready for after the battle, I'm pretty sure they could have done something similar with the Cheve rebels.

This what most people were expecting/hoping to happen somewhere in the middle of the story, not the end.

Honestly, no.

What would really solve all of Conquest's problems was if Garon was not a flat, one-dimensional

slime monster

villain, or at least tried to pretend he had good goals. Then the Nohrian siblings, Corrin and Azura would actually have a good reason to follow him because they believe in his cause instead of just "DADDY'S NOT EVIL".

This. People wouldn't be nearly as critical of Nohr if they weren't such passionate puppy kickers. They really have no purpose beyond being evil for the sake of itself.

The Avatar leaving Nohr would leave Nohr without a good center because the Royal Siblings tend to side with the Avatar's decisions. If the Avatar says to not kill anyone, they do it. Even Peri's bloodlust gets reigned in for her introduction mission. Without that, they still would of killed people.

Are the siblings such directionless boobs that they NEED Kamui there? Kamui, the naive prince who spent the bulk of his life holed up in a remote castle?

A I can completely understand people criticizing the story for its plot holes, inconsistencies, and rushed writings, but I do not like seeing everyone completely trash another choice in this game because they don't understand the reasoning for the choice. Not once do I ever see anyone talk about the true reason to side with Nohr. [...] So please, if you are going to pick something apart in Nohr, pick apart the failed attempt at writing a redemption/revolution story for the kingdom, but do not trash the concept behind the choice and say there is no reason to do so, because even though it is a horribly written way to get there, its still there.

People understand the concept. People LOVE the concept, but what they don't like at all is the execution of that concept. You acknowledge many times in your post that the writing is bad and full of plot holes. THAT is what people dislike. Should we like a poorly written story just because "If it were written totally different, it would be a brilliant story."?

I love how Hans going out of control and murdering Scarlet is getting blamed on Corrin for convenience.

Corrin had no intention of hurting Scarlet. They only intended to injure the rebels so that it would appear that they were following King Garon's orders. When Corrin found out that Hans was doing that, they were completely horrified and tried to order Hans to stop. Unfortunately they couldn't stop Hans at the time since Hans was acting on King Garon's orders, so if Corrin stopped Hans and it got back to King Garon everything would be ruined.

Kamui isn't to blame the the specific action of killing Scarlet. He's to blame for putting down her rebellion and leaving her defenseless. Did he think everything would be puppies and roses for the people of Chevalier after that?

Edited March 4, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Azure Sen]

never mind that takumi shot at corrin and elise first and started the fight and wouldn't let negotiations take place, so in actuality its takumi's fault this happen in the first place, long as we disregard *SPOILERS*

Negotiate what, exactly? What power did Corrin have to negotiate anything with the Hoshido army?

Well, they don't like to admit Takumi is wrong for anything so I am not surprised. Takumi could be shooting arrows into Nohrian children and they would say that they had it coming before admitting that Takumi was in the wrong.

Why do people keep ignoring the fact that Elise, regardless of how she looks or acts, is a combatant who is willingly serving in the Nohr forces?

Because it's completely necessary? It's not like Corrin can just kill/injure Hans at that time without getting killed by King Garon. They also can't refuse an order from Garon without getting killed on the spot. King Garon and Iago are already suspicious of Corrin and they are trying to make them prove their loyalty. They are waiting for any excuse they can get to kill Corrin. Corrin needs to appear loyal while biding their time and waiting for the right time to act.

I think BruceLee was more asking "why did Corrin think sparing the Cheve rebel forces was good idea," which I kind of agree with.

[Ebony]

Why do people keep ignoring the fact that Elise, regardless of how she looks or acts, is a combatant who is willingly serving in the Nohr forces?

She is "technically an adult" anyway so

[Abysswalker25]

When is the right time to act? After he's done going on Garon's errands of shutting down all rebellions that share his goal? Sorry, still makes no sense to me.

@abysswalker

my bad then bro. i thought you were doing it on purpose.

I'm just kinda slow with my posting eheh.

Negotiate what, exactly? What power did Corrin have to negotiate anything with the Hoshido army?

Well, he didn't expect Hoshido to be involved. It was Cheve, a duchy(I think?) In Nohr. It was the rebels he was going to speak to, not the Hoshidans who set up an ambush.

[Esme]

stats tie into the story right? cause if i remember correctly these characters have stats that you can't quite compete with at that point of the game.

My Lilith could probably sneeze on Garon and his lackies and it would kill them.

She should have ended this war imo.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

My Lilith could probably sneeze on Garon and his lackies and it would kill them.

She should have ended this war imo.

is he that weak? i got a good lilith as well.

i really need to get to that point of the game

[Azure Sen]

I'm just kinda slow with my posting eheh.

Well, he didn't expect Hoshido to be involved. It was Cheve, a duchy(I think?) In Nohr. It was the rebels he was going to speak to, not the Hoshidans who set up an ambush.

I'm pretty slow too, especially when it comes with wordy stuff.

But yeah, given that Hans was apparently under orders to wipe Cheve off the map, I don't think anything Corrin could have negotiated with them would have saved them. Heck, if Hans had showed up after negotiations, he probably would have taken it as an open invitation to take Corrin's head for "conspiring with the rebels."

Edited March 4, 2016 by AzureSen

[Abysswalker25]

is he that weak? i got a good lilith as well.

i really need to get to that point of the game

My Lilith could probably sneeze on Garon and his lackies and it would kill them.

She should have ended this war imo.

Man, I feel like I suck. I never bothered to feed Lilith.

Quick edit for post above me: That is true, but remember even Garon for all his evilness was actually IMPRESSED when Corrin didn't kill a single Ice Tribe member quelling their rebellion. Who is to say it couldn't have happened for Cheve as well? Not sure how many forces Hans showed up with but he seemed to just play the part of executioner and were the people of Cheve not injured, they might've intimidated Hans enough to fall back, or at least hesitate enough for Garon to change his orders if the rebellion is no longer an issue.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Abysswalker25