So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[warchiefwilliams]

I often wonder if all of our criticism even reaches IS.

Unlikely. They may have one or two PR guys/gals keeping an eye on the internet, but a lot of what we say probably gets chocked up to butt-hurt nerd rage.

[Thane]

Unlikely. They may have one or two PR guys/gals keeping an eye on the internet, but a lot of what we say probably gets chocked up to butt-hurt nerd rage.

They heard about the criticism towards Awakening's story though and acknowledged it. I haven't spent much time on the Japanese side of the internet, but I have read quite a few story complaints there too, if I understood the their messages correctly.

Of course, it's hard not to understand "Kibayashi, it's your fault the story is bad" or whatever it was someone wrote.

It would be silly of them not to check some major platforms for discussing Fire Emblem, is what I'm saying. Maybe they just care about their Japanese fans (although I doubt it given the success of Fates in the West already), but they also seem to be disappointed.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Thane

[Time the Crestfallen]

They heard about the criticism towards Awakening's story though and acknowledged it. I haven't spent much time on the Japanese side of the internet, but I have read quite a few story complaints there too, if I understood the their messages correctly.

Of course, it's hard not to understand "Kibayashi, it's your fault the story is bad" or whatever it was someone wrote.

It would be silly of them not to check some major platforms for discussing Fire Emblem, is what I'm saying. Maybe they just care about their Japanese fans (although I doubt it given the success of Fates in the West already), but they also seem to be disappointed.

Mhmm. At the very least, they've proven that they're receptive to criticism, so I'm sure they'll be able to fix some of their mistakes next game.

[Tolvir]

Unlikely. They may have one or two PR guys/gals keeping an eye on the internet, but a lot of what we say probably gets chocked up to butt-hurt nerd rage.

Actually quite the opposite. It is something that I actually give IS a lot of credit for is the fact that they do listen to their fanbase and what they liked and did not like. They even talked about it when producing Fates, and said its the reason they brought the new writer on board was because people thought Awakening's story was lacking. Its why I would much prefer to see constructive criticism of fates rather than just saying its a piece of trash because they are listening, but I guarantee they wont listen to that. And don't take that as an attack on anyone here, I was just speaking in general that I have seen a lot of nonconstructive criticism in multiple places.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Tolvir

[Time the Crestfallen]

Actually quite the opposite. It is something that I actually give IS a lot of credit for is the fact that they do listen to their fanbase and what they liked and did not like. They even talked about it when producing Fates, and said its the reason they brought the new writer on board was because people thought Awakening's story was lacking. Its why I would much prefer to see constructive criticism of fates rather than just saying its a piece of trash because they are listening, but I guarantee they wont listen to that. And don't take that as an attack on anyone here, I was just speaking in general that I have seen a lot of nonconstructive criticism in multiple places.

Are you surprised? Non-constructive criticism is what the internet does best.

[Tolvir]

Are you surprised? Non-constructive criticism is what the internet does best.

No I am not suprised at all. Ive seen my fair share of stupidity on the internet, and learned that there really isn't anything you can do about it. Just sit back and enjoy the show for the most part, and find the parts that are enjoyable, like here, most of the time. Often times it can provide good laughs like a really bad indy horror movie.

[Rapier]

I'll be a devil's advocate here even if my arguments turn out to be bad after all, because why not, sounds fun.

"Why do people say Corrin is stupid on Conquest?" (also, I'm going to call Corrin "him" because that's what my brain automatically does and I don't want to spend 30 seconds changing it to "they")

Because his/her decisions are more harmful to his goal than beneficial. But even with that said, we're forgetting something important: Corrin is a naive person, not exactly as tactful (let's not discuss it with concrete examples) as Robin, lacks life experience and knows very little about the world because they lived enclosed in that tower/castle/fort/thing for their entire childhood/adolescence. It is completely natural and expected for someone like him to make such detrimental decisions and let his heart speak higher than reason.

Hence why it is understandable why they could choose Marx and co. instead of Ryouma and co. Hence why it is understandable why they would do the things they did, believing that it is for a better goal, being incentived by Aqua (who, on contrary, should not have been stupid) to go through that path and think that what they're doing is ultimately good or the lesser possible evil, that the end justifies the means.

I'm not saying they're right, I am saying that what they did is understandable and in-character, the internal conflict and stupid choices that they make is not a case of bad writing. Corrin's dialogue shows confusion, regret, false courage/hope and conviction along Conquest's route, further proving their psychological weakness.

Another thing that I'd like to point to is how people say Marx was badly written because apparently his personalities change from situation to situation, from time to time. He's a chivalrous and morally correct at a time, then a moral relativist who does not defend the innocent when his father's around at another. Well...

Normal people also do that. This is not a case of bad writing so much as a case where the writers show different nuances of his personality, which reveal themselves depending on the situation and circunstances he goes through. Marx is chivalrous, but he does anything for his family, which includes allowing innocent people to die right in front of him when it is his father's orders AND even refusing orders when it is detrimental to someone close (when Garon demands that Corrin is killed, for example). He's wrong, of course, but that does not make him a badly written character.

Ryouma is a similar case; he is a caring brother figure who tries to take the moral high ground when in an argument about correctedness (whereas Marx does not even try to morally justify his actions), but that will not stop him from harming or killing Corrin nor give them a free pass as shown in Chapter 12. He couldn't care less about letting Elise die right there from poison if his demands were not complied. This shows that, depending on the situation and circunstances, he's also a ruthless warrior who will not hesitate on what he considers his mission. This is part of the human nature, and not a case of bad writting.

Now, the issue with Fates' story is the railroad that the writers force upon its characters. Azura is one of such cases, being someone smart who does a couple of stupid things, the most obvious one is not revealing secrets from Revelations right on the beginning, secrets that could have changed the whole plotline and avoided unnecessary conflicts altogether.

[The DanMan]

I feel like the problem isn't Corrin himself as much as the way things are written; every choice, as far as we can tell, is presented as the only realistic option.

Therefore, why on earth was it written so that he's handtied? I'm okay with Corrin's behavior within the circumstances, but I call BS on the actual circumstances.

EDIT:

I disagree with other parts of your analysis but those opinions have been discussed a thousand times so I'll just comment on this part.

Extreme railroading is one of the biggest flaws of Conquest. Even without Azura's... sketchy plan, the narrative is stacked so that Kamui fails at everything and is forced to go through with the invasion. Garon and Iago have a massive, unexplained hateboner for Kamui and they always show up to make you fail. Iago somehow has omnipresence so Kamui doesn't have the option to deviate from his course. The IK curse is just the final piece in the drive to push the plot towards madness. Kamui and Azura make some seriously boneheaded decisions but it's not entirely their fault that the writers want to screw them over.

The Knight of Felines just put what I meant much more eloquently.

Edited March 6, 2016 by The DanMan

[Sunwoo]

Nohr!Kamui would've been an interesting protagonist if the plot didn't go out of its way to protect him from any and all criticism for the choices he makes. I wouldn't have minded him so much, even his dumb parts, if it were acknowledged in the plot that he had also really fucked up and the people that he wronged are in the right to not want to forgive him. Alas, the plot actually wants us to believe that he's right. And that's the big problem for me.

[NekoKnight]

Now, the issue with Fates' story is the railroad that the writers force upon its characters. Azura is one of such cases, being someone smart who does a couple of stupid things, the most obvious one is not revealing secrets from Revelations right on the beginning, secrets that could have changed the whole plotline and avoided unnecessary conflicts altogether.

I disagree with other parts of your analysis but those opinions have been discussed a thousand times so I'll just comment on this part.

Extreme railroading is one of the biggest flaws of Conquest. Even without Azura's... sketchy plan, the narrative is stacked so that Kamui fails at everything and is forced to go through with the invasion. Garon and Iago have a massive, unexplained hateboner for Kamui and they always show up to make you fail. Iago somehow has omnipresence so Kamui doesn't have the option to deviate from his course. The IK curse is just the final piece in the drive to push the plot towards madness. Kamui and Azura make some seriously boneheaded decisions but it's not entirely their fault that the writers want to screw them over.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I disagree with other parts of your analysis but those opinions have been discussed a thousand times so I'll just comment on this part.

Extreme railroading is one of the biggest flaws of Conquest. Even without Azura's... sketchy plan, the narrative is stacked so that Kamui fails at everything and is forced to go through with the invasion. Garon and Iago have a massive, unexplained hateboner for Kamui and they always show up to make you fail. Iago somehow has omnipresence so Kamui doesn't have the option to deviate from his course. The IK curse is just the final piece in the drive to push the plot towards madness. Kamui and Azura make some seriously boneheaded decisions but it's not entirely their fault that the writers want to screw them over.

I now headcanons Conquest as the first adventure written by a new DM and his group of players. Azura is the DMPC who always goes 'bout thou must' when they try to go off the rails and Hans/Iago only show up when the players start going off-script.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

I now headcanons Conquest as the first adventure written by a new DM and his group of players. Azura is the DMPC who always goes 'bout thou must' when they try to go off the rails and Hans/Iago only show up when the players start going off-script.

Player: Can I make my character Lawful Good?

DM: No, this is an evil campaign. Please choose an evil alignment.

Player: Too bad, I'm making one anyway.

DM: Fine...

Player: I'm multiclassing Lord and Manakete btw.

*20 minutes later*

Player: And then Kamui defeats the rebels without killing a single person!

DM: AND THEN HANZ COMES AND KILLS EVERYONE YOU SAVED! Now go invade the peaceful kingdom or I'm killing your character too.

Player: Yo, this DM straight up sucks.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Player: Can I make my character Lawful Good?

DM: No, this is an evil campaign. Please choose an evil alignment.

Player: Too bad, I'm making one anyway.

DM: Fine...

Player: I'm multiclassing Lord and Manakete btw.

*20 minutes later*

Player: And then Kamui defeats the rebels without killing a single person!

DM: AND THEN HANZ COMES AND KILLS EVERYONE YOU SAVED! Now go invade the peaceful kingdom or I'm killing your character too.

Player: Yo, this DM straight up sucks.

Funny thing being that you can choose to simply knock enemies out if you reduce them to 0 HP in D&D. So really, it's Hans coming in and kill-stealing so he can hog all the EXP.

[Thane]

Because his/her decisions are more harmful to his goal than beneficial. But even with that said, we're forgetting something important: Corrin is a naive person, not exactly as tactful (let's not discuss it with concrete examples) as Robin, lacks life experience and knows very little about the world because they lived enclosed in that tower/castle/fort/thing for their entire childhood/adolescence. It is completely natural and expected for someone like him to make such detrimental decisions and let his heart speak higher than reason.

Correct, and most people would obviously expect a naïve protagonist to grow up, but Corrin doesn't. That's one of the main complaints towards him in Conquest; the entire plot and even characters go out of the way to justify his actions for him or treat him like a porcelain doll, hence why he is given the ability to win large fights without any casualities, which is a stupid attempt to not dirty his hands even though what he's doing is wrong.

Hence why it is understandable why they could choose Marx and co. instead of Ryouma and co. Hence why it is understandable why they would do the things they did, believing that it is for a better goal, being incentived by Aqua (who, on contrary, should not have been stupid) to go through that path and think that what they're doing is ultimately good or the lesser possible evil, that the end justifies the means.

If his "heart speaks higher than reason" (which does not mean that reason should be completely removed as a factor) then he would've stayed in Birthright anyway, not spitting in the faces of his parents who sacrificed their lives for him by going back to the kingdom hellbent on killing more people - even those close to him, like Gunter.

The ends justifying the means seems to be an excuse people use to defend Corrin's decision, but the game seems to treat it like it's the right one - Takumi is portrayed as being in the wrong while defending his homeland, so I'm not sure what to make of that sentence. Also, "the greater good" here would be either:

1) Killing Garon which Corrin plans to do after chapter 15. However, just a few chapters before, he said it was madness to trade peace for a life - yet then he goes on murdering innocent Hoshidans.

2) Killing all the Hoshidan siblings/strategizing with them when he had the chance. Killing them would've let Garon march through Hoshido with limited casualties if Xander is to be believed in chapter six. However, again, Corrin doesn't, opting instead to go on a murderous rampage and involving more people than necessary. Strategizing with them - while maybe not possible but we simply can't know due to the game is busy having Corrin cracking jokes - would've maybe let them kill Garon quicker; maybe they could've feigned their deaths at the hands of Zora or whatever.

Another thing that I'd like to point to is how people say Marx was badly written because apparently his personalities change from situation to situation, from time to time. He's a chivalrous and morally correct at a time, then a moral relativist who does not defend the innocent when his father's around at another. Well...

Normal people also do that. This is not a case of bad writing so much as a case where the writers show different nuances of his personality, which reveal themselves depending on the situation and circunstances he goes through. Marx is chivalrous, but he does anything for his family, which includes allowing innocent people to die right in front of him when it is his father's orders AND even refusing orders when it is detrimental to someone close (when Garon demands that Corrin is killed, for example). He's wrong, of course, but that does not make him a badly written character.

There's a very big difference between being portrayed as heroic and at the same time ignoring your dying little sister's last wish and taking the easy way out and crying over never having a choice but to obey - you know, except listening to Elise and help Corrin kill Garon whom he knows is a twisted man. That's inconsistent and there's nothing heroic about it at all.

Ryouma is a similar case; he is a caring brother figure who tries to take the moral high ground when in an argument about correctedness (whereas Marx does not even try to morally justify his actions), but that will not stop him from harming or killing Corrin nor give them a free pass as shown in Chapter 12. He couldn't care less about letting Elise die right there from poison if his demands were not complied. This shows that, depending on the situation and circunstances, he's also a ruthless warrior who will not hesitate on what he considers his mission. This is part of the human nature, and not a case of bad writting.

This has been discussed to death and I can't fathom why people use this AGAINST Ryouma. He's given leverage and he uses it and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - Elise is a PRINCESS of the nation invading his country, and she's present on the battlefield; she's a high priority target. If anything this is Corrin's fault for risking Elise dying by not just going with Ryouma.

Can you give a single reason as to why Ryouma should help an enemy combatant for nothing in return when he has everything to gain from not doing so? Or are we just supposed to sympathize with Elise because she's cute? If that had been Leo, I can guarantee people would've brought this up far less.

Now, the issue with Fates' story is the railroad that the writers force upon its characters. Azura is one of such cases, being someone smart who does a couple of stupid things, the most obvious one is not revealing secrets from Revelations right on the beginning, secrets that could have changed the whole plotline and avoided unnecessary conflicts altogether.

Azura's smart? She's many things, but intelligent is not one of them. Her acting mysterious costs thousands of lives.

[Nintales]

Correct, and most people would obviously expect a naïve protagonist to grow up, but Corrin doesn't. That's one of the main complaints towards him in Conquest; the entire plot and even characters go out of the way to justify his actions for him or treat him like a porcelain doll, hence why he is given the ability to win large fights without any casualities, which is a stupid attempt to not dirty his hands even though what he's doing is wrong.

I'm not sure of who you are talking, but if it's the Nohr sibling, it's actually fair to say they actually are kept by the little/big brother they adore. He/She's the only one who hasn't experienced all the madness they've been through (minus Elise?), hence why people like Camilla can be overly protective, or Xander just believe he/she's crazy at some points. The reason why Xander actually attacks him/her with his own blade is probably because that's how he has been punished by his father, and just being a reflection of his education.

As for the Hoshidian Siblings, Hinoka and Ryoma might have been traumatized by the event. Hinoka at the moment was just a child, and learning that the adorable little baby she saw was kidnapped by the enemy probably left a mark on her. Sakura's just reflecting the thoughts of her older brother and sister.

Meanwhile, you have Takumi who didn't know Kamui and therefore isn't as exposed as the others (Sakura still got her life saved by Kamui and co). That's why he's the only one without real bias towards him and he treats him this way no matter what.

I think the game did a pretty good job of making the characters human, only if that was not for Ganz/Iago and the

stupid stupid stupid slime monster Garon.

If his "heart speaks higher than reason" (which does not mean that reason should be completely removed as a factor) then he would've stayed in Birthright anyway, not spitting in the faces of his parents who sacrificed their lives for him by going back to the kingdom hellbent on killing more people - even those close to him, like Gunter.

I disagree. What Nohrrin thinks is probably that if he joins Hoshido, he'll have to face Camilla, Elise, Leon, and Xander. This is the main reason he/she'll join Nohr instead of trying to change Garon. Noone sane would be crazy enough to think attacking his family. Even if Mikoto died for his sake, he just can't bring himself to this thought. This conflict is the main reason Revelations is the right path. (because both choices are equally moral)

Don't forget that also, during this scene, everyone speaks to him/her. Corrin gets a huge amount of pressure on his/her shoulders.

The ends justifying the means seems to be an excuse people use to defend Corrin's decision, but the game seems to treat it like it's the right one - Takumi is portrayed as being in the wrong while defending his homeland, so I'm not sure what to make of that sentence. Also, "the greater good" here would be either:

I haven't played yet the game, so I can't really answer that. But I looked videos of the plot (lol I've spoiled me a lot), and it doesn't seem like Takumi is being in the wrong. I mean, if you look at Corrin's point of view, he's in the wrong for sure for him. Corrin is an idealist who thinks that peace can be brought only by words. Therefore, he/she thinks fighting is pointless. Takumi can only be in the wrong for not willing to surrender.

1) Killing Garon which Corrin plans to do after chapter 15. However, just a few chapters before, he said it was madness to trade peace for a life - yet then he goes on murdering innocent Hoshidans.

Here, this is probably Kamui's overly emotional side who took over. I'd just love to know to who he says that though. Is it to the Ice Tribe chieftain? And he's also limited by Ganz/Iago who are actually killing Hoshidians. He planned on sparing Sakura's entire troops, if that wasn't for those two idiots.

2) Killing all the Hoshidan siblings/strategizing with them when he had the chance. Killing them would've let Garon march through Hoshido with limited casualties if Xander is to be believed in chapter six. However, again, Corrin doesn't, opting instead to go on a murderous rampage and involving more people than necessary. Strategizing with them - while maybe not possible but we simply can't know due to the game is busy having Corrin cracking jokes - would've maybe let them kill Garon quicker; maybe they could've feigned their deaths at the hands of Zora or whatever.

He can't kill them, again. Those are his true blood siblings, and Corrin is -sadly, would have made a really nice story- not a sociopath.

And, for the "Corrin being busy doing jokes", I think that's because Corrin is also probably a little bit socially awkward, and can't find the timing to really talk about this. You just see your two families, and realize how funny they look together. Even if we're at war, Corrin is really apart from that : again, he/she's an idealist. For him/her, the notion of war is probably just out. He/She's just not even prepared for that.

That was for sure a mistake, but maybe a human one.

There's a very big difference between being portrayed as heroic and at the same time ignoring your dying little sister's last wish and taking the easy way out and crying over never having a choice but to obey - you know, except listening to Elise and help Corrin kill Garon whom he knows is a twisted man. That's inconsistent and there's nothing heroic about it at all.

Can't disagree on that point. The passage when you have to face Xander feels very very forced. But on the other hand, do you really think Xander could have stopped in his momentum and said "I... can't fight... now." He's a proud warrior, who cannot refuse battle. The only one he'd ever refuse to fight is his father due to the psychological marks he has. Don't forget that he has been educated in a way different way that the others. He's also stubborn. Therefore, he had to fight Corrin. That's how I see him.

This has been discussed to death and I can't fathom why people use this AGAINST Ryouma. He's given leverage and he uses it and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - Elise is a PRINCESS of the nation invading his country, and she's present on the battlefield; she's a high priority target. If anything this is Corrin's fault for risking Elise dying by not just going with Ryouma.

Can you give a single reason as to why Ryouma should help an enemy combatant for nothing in return when he has everything to gain from not doing so? Or are we just supposed to sympathize with Elise because she's cute? If that had been Leo, I can guarantee people would've brought this up far less.

To help with peace? Since Nohr is a nation governed by honor and power, maybe saving the princess would have led to a good understanding between the two nations?

But Ryoma is blinded by his feelings at this moment, so it's pretty much normal he does that.

Azura's smart? She's many things, but intelligent is not one of them. Her acting mysterious costs thousands of lives.

Can't disagree on that. But when you have social issues, it's pretty hard in my opinion to find the moment to speak. Especially in Nohr, with people she doesn't know at all. In Revelations, Azura has to be with Corrin (so Corrin has to know the entire truth) to actually show it to them. She also has an inferiority complex regarding her Hoshidian siblings, thinking she's only "Corrin's replacement", making it hard for her to speak with people.

She's afraid to be rejected, and it's perfectly understandable. If you knew that something crazy was going to happen, but are with people you don't really trust and know, how will you say that? "Hey guys Garon is an evil slime monster bb"

Here goes the devil's advocate.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Nintales

[Pretty_Handsome]

Yet those Nohrian Siblings ignore and defend Garon after he already tries to kill you off multiple times. They don't believe Corrin when he/she brings it up either.

Corrin would be pretty foolish to return to Nohr where they know Garon has already tried to off them multiple times. Not to mention that Xander knew you weren't their family the entire time but were kidnapped from Hoshido. Ergo, your entire Nohr life is a lie due to Garon and Xander.

I don't see any merit or logic in returning to such an abusive situation especially when your supposed Nohr siblings, which you find out is a lie and that Xander was in on it, refuse to believe that daddy is out to kill you when he literally orders your death at the start for not killing innocents right in front of them.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[Nintales]

Yet those Nohrian Siblings ignore and defend Garon after he already tries to kill you off multiple times. They don't believe Corrin when he/she brings it up either.

Corrin would be pretty foolish to return to Nohr where they know Garon has already tried to off them multiple times. Not to mention that Xander knew you weren't their family the entire time but were kidnapped from Hoshido. Ergo, your entire Nohr life is a lie due to Garon and Xander.

I don't see any merit or logic in returning to such an abusive situation especially when your supposed Nohr siblings, which you find out is a lie and that Xander was in on it, refuse to believe that daddy is out to kill you when he literally orders your death at the start for not killing innocents right in front of them.

Stockholm syndrome or battered woman's syndrome. That is undeniably what happens to Xander, and maybe Camilla/Leo.

As for Corrin, what happens in the few first chapters explaisn the nice relation you have with your brothers and sisters. Xander is like a second father to you, being your mentor and military caretaker. Camilla takes care of you like a mother. Elise is your adorable little sister, and Leo is the brother you just can't stop making fun of but who you like deeply.

It's hard to consider fighting against them. It'd be impossible if Mikoto didn't die before.

[Thane]

I'm not sure of who you are talking, but if it's the Nohr sibling, it's actually fair to say they actually are kept by the little/big brother they adore. He/She's the only one who hasn't experienced all the madness they've been through (minus Elise?), hence why people like Camilla can be overly protective, or Xander just believe he/she's crazy at some points. The reason why Xander actually attacks him/her with his own blade is probably because that's how he has been punished by his father, and just being a reflection of his education.

As for the Hoshidian Siblings, Hinoka and Ryoma might have been traumatized by the event. Hinoka at the moment was just a child, and learning that the adorable little baby she saw was kidnapped by the enemy probably left a mark on her. Sakura's just reflecting the thoughts of her older brother and sister.

Meanwhile, you have Takumi who didn't know Kamui and therefore isn't as exposed as the others (Sakura still got her life saved by Kamui and co). That's why he's the only one without real bias towards him and he treats him this way no matter what.

First of all, Leo doesn't treat Corrin like that either. An example would be when he explains his reasons for killing Zora. If I were to guess, Leo not treating him like an idiot is one of the reasons why he's so popular.

Secondly, treating a protagonist - especially one that's supposed to represent the player - comes across as incredibly patronizing. Even though Corrin is responsible for a lot of shit going wrong, everyone else tells him otherwise.

You also seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what the siblings feel and why. You also mention the fact that they adore Corrin, but once again, we're never given a real reason why; we're just supposed to accept that Corrin's just that important to everyone, which in turn negatively affects the interactions between the other siblings - outside of the supports, how much does Hinoka and Takumi interact? I believe Hinoka tells him to shut up at one point, and I cannot for the life of me remember anything else they've said to each other.

I think the game did a pretty good job of making the characters human

I disagree. Again, the ones that come across as human are Leo and Takumi for...well, acting human. Sakura, Hinoka and Ryouma completely brush aside any and all potential hand Corrin could've had in the explosion that killed their mother. They go to absurd lengths to get him back even though he's made up his mind to invade their nation, and I'm trying to think of anything that really humanizes them; Ryouma is a bit vain, Sakura grows a spine during Conquest and...Hinoka is just there, like a dry piece of cardboard.

As for the Nohrians, I've already talked a lot about Xander, so I'll mention that I don't see Elise as an interesting character in the slightest. What does she do, and why? She's just around to be cute, happy and good, and that's usually what her supports are about, too. Camilla, on the other hand, is a mentally unstable person who can't stop trying to bang her brother, and Corrin's inexplicable popularity ruins her entire character; she's there for fan service and fetish fuel and nothing more.

I disagree. What Nohrrin thinks is probably that if he joins Hoshido, he'll have to face Camilla, Elise, Leon, and Xander. This is the main reason he/she'll join Nohr instead of trying to change Garon. Noone sane would be crazy enough to think attacking his family. Even if Mikoto died for his sake, he just can't bring himself to this thought. This conflict is the main reason Revelations is the right path. (because both choices are equally moral)

Don't forget that also, during this scene, everyone speaks to him/her. Corrin gets a huge amount of pressure on his/her shoulders.

So you mean to tell me that it's much easier for Corrin to invade an innocent nation, kill the people he was supposed to grow up with, ignore the sacrifices of his father and mother, serve a king that just wants to see him suffer and sent a crazy man on his last mission, after he was tricked into carrying an exploding sword with him? Do I understand you correctly?

I haven't played yet the game, so I can't really answer that. But I looked videos of the plot (lol I've spoiled me a lot), and it doesn't seem like Takumi is being in the wrong. I mean, if you look at Corrin's point of view, he's in the wrong for sure for him. Corrin is an idealist who thinks that peace can be brought only by words. Therefore, he/she thinks fighting is pointless. Takumi can only be in the wrong for not willing to surrender

Do you know how it ends? I believe a lot of people, even those who enjoy Conquest's plot, would agree when I say Takumi is portrayed as being in the wrong. I don't want to spoil anything for you.

Here, this is probably Kamui's overly emotional side who took over. I'd just love to know to who he says that though. Is it to the Ice Tribe chieftain? And he's also limited by Ganz/Iago who are actually killing Hoshidians. He planned on sparing Sakura's entire troops, if that wasn't for those two idiots.

You mean to tell me Corrin planned to invade an entire nation and somehow avoid any and all casualties? And that his actions are A-okay because others are doing the killing - you know, the killing he set up for them? I don't understand your logic.

He can't kill them, again. Those are his true blood siblings, and Corrin is -sadly, would have made a really nice story- not a sociopath.

And, for the "Corrin being busy doing jokes", I think that's because Corrin is also probably a little bit socially awkward, and can't find the timing to really talk about this. You just see your two families, and realize how funny they look together. Even if we're at war, Corrin is really apart from that : again, he/she's an idealist. For him/her, the notion of war is probably just out. He/She's just not even prepared for that.

That was for sure a mistake, but maybe a human one.

Socially awkward has very lttle to do with not seizing a golden opportunity to either immediately end the war or strategize with the people - all in one room - necessary to bring it to an end.

Even brushing that aside, he doesn't even bother to try and explain himself or his actions. Hinoka doesn't mention him sparing her men, Ryouma doesn't talk about the apothecary (I believe), etc. This whole scene exists in a vacuum and does nothing to further the plot even though it should've been a key point in the game.

Can't disagree on that point. The passage when you have to face Xander feels very very forced. But on the other hand, do you really think Xander could have stopped in his momentum and said "I... can't fight... now." He's a proud warrior, who cannot refuse battle. The only one he'd ever refuse to fight is his father due to the psychological marks he has. Don't forget that he has been educated in a way different way that the others. He's also stubborn. Therefore, he had to fight Corrin. That's how I see him.

Yes, yes I do think Xander could've stopped the entire thing because there was not a single threat to him aside from the people on his own side. He fails to honor his sister's last request who died solely because of him. He also knows what he's doing is wrong, meaning that we're supposed to like a character who'd rather fight for evil than to grow a spine.

To help with peace? Since Nohr is a nation governed by honor and power, maybe saving the princess would have led to a good understanding between the two nations?

But Ryoma is blinded by his feelings at this moment, so it's pretty much normal he does that.

To help with peace? Wait, what? How would helping Elise contribute to there being peace at all? She was on the battlefield when they invaded his nation! Ryouma is also not dumb enough to think Garon would be swayed by saving his daughter; the man personally murdered his faher in cold blood.

Ryouma is not in the wrong in any way, shape or form. Again, people seem to sympathize with Elise because she's cute, but she'd still be a high priority target, and Ryouma was under no obligation to help her. If anything, Corrin is at fault since he's delaying her treatment.

Can't disagree on that. But when you have social issues, it's pretty hard in my opinion to find the moment to speak. Especially in Nohr, with people she doesn't know at all. In Revelations, Azura has to be with Corrin (so Corrin has to know the entire truth) to actually show it to them. She also has an inferiority complex regarding her Hoshidian siblings, thinking she's only "Corrin's replacement", making it hard for her to speak with people.

She's afraid to be rejected, and it's perfectly understandable. If you knew that something crazy was going to happen, but are with people you don't really trust and know, how will you say that? "Hey guys Garon is an evil slime monster bb"

Again, "social issues" is a pretty bad excuse for being partially responsible for there being a war between two nations. Her fear of getting rejected and just not fit in socially is simply not apparent in the main story; she's a cold, calculating exposition bot during the missions, and she claims to be fighting for peace, yet doesn't provide the information necessary to stop a war even when she's given the perfect opportunity.

[Nintales]

I won't answer you yet because I don't fully know the plot.

But I'll just answer that :

To help with peace? Wait, what? How would helping Elise contribute to there being peace at all? She was on the battlefield when they invaded his nation! Ryouma is also not dumb enough to think Garon would be swayed by saving his daughter; the man personally murdered his faher in cold blood.

Ryouma is not in the wrong in any way, shape or form. Again, people seem to sympathize with Elise because she's cute, but she'd still be a high priority target, and Ryouma was under no obligation to help her. If anything, Corrin is at fault since he's delaying her treatment.

HOW DO YOU DARE ATTACK MY WAIFU

YOU LITTLE MONSTER I'LL KILL YOU

I hate you now

Elise is cute and should have been saved because "onii-chaaaaan".

That's it. And I'm sure the 3021 other Elise fanboys agree.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Stockholm syndrome or battered woman's syndrome. That is undeniably what happens to Xander, and maybe Camilla/Leo.

As for Corrin, what happens in the few first chapters explaisn the nice relation you have with your brothers and sisters. Xander is like a second father to you, being your mentor and military caretaker. Camilla takes care of you like a mother. Elise is your adorable little sister, and Leo is the brother you just can't stop making fun of but who you like deeply.

It's hard to consider fighting against them. It'd be impossible if Mikoto didn't die before.

An excuse. Corrin just regained their memories and they know their Nohr false siblings, Xander knew you were a Hoshidan captive and not Garon's child the entire time, won't protect them from the abuse while their blood mother, Mikoto, sacrificed herself to save Corrin from Garon's plot. That and they remember that Sumeragi died protecting them as well.

Corrin also learned that Hoshido has been trying to save them from the abusive Garon for years. Hoshido still accepts Corrin as well even after Mikoto dies, only Takumi doesn't trust you right away.

Going back to Nohr despite knowing all this makes Nohr Corrin one of the stupidest characters in Fire Emblem history.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[BruceLee]

I'll be a devil's advocate here even if my arguments turn out to be bad after all, because why not, sounds fun.

Here goes the devil's advocate.

^everything thane said

Nohr!Kamui would've been an interesting protagonist if the plot didn't go out of its way to protect him from any and all criticism for the choices he makes. I wouldn't have minded him so much, even his dumb parts, if it were acknowledged in the plot that he had also really fucked up and the people that he wronged are in the right to not want to forgive him. Alas, the plot actually wants us to believe that he's right. And that's the big problem for me.

This pretty much sums up my main problems aswell.

[RedRob]

Nohr!Kamui would've been an interesting protagonist if the plot didn't go out of its way to protect him from any and all criticism for the choices he makes. I wouldn't have minded him so much, even his dumb parts, if it were acknowledged in the plot that he had also really fucked up and the people that he wronged are in the right to not want to forgive him. Alas, the plot actually wants us to believe that he's right. And that's the big problem for me.

I'm pretty sure that this is a generally accepted definition for a Gary Stu, one who is utterely revered by the narrative, even when he shouldn't be, unless the story was told through first person POV, which means the narrative might still be biased, but would work in favor of the story since it would give the audience an insight into the narrator's mindset.

But Fates isn't told that way, so I think we can agree for the most part Corrin is a stu, or dangerously close to one, and that hurts the story the most.

[Thane]

I won't answer you yet because I don't fully know the plot.

But I'll just answer that :

HOW DO YOU DARE ATTACK MY WAIFU

YOU LITTLE MONSTER I'LL KILL YOU

I hate you now

Elise is cute and should have been saved because "onii-chaaaaan".

That's it. And I'm sure the 3021 other Elise fanboys agree.

What? I didn't attack her, I said she was a high priority target and that she was present on the battlefield when the whole invasion began.

Also, your waifu is a pre-teen naïve little girl?

[Nym]

Also, your waifu is a pre-teen naïve little girl?

Don't be silly Thane, she's technically an adult.

[RedRob]

What? I didn't attack her, I said she was a high priority target and that she was present on the battlefield when the whole invasion began.

Also, your waifu is a pre-teen naïve little girl?

I think he was joking Thane, I think he was just joking, hopefully.