So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[RJWalker]

Because Ethlyn brought her child with her to a battlefield, not to what was presumed to be peace negotiations?

Ethlyn was an idiot and no one defends her. What's your point?

[BruceLee]

Also, I have said before, there are times when avoiding danger and consequences is not a bad idea.

Whether it's a good or bad idea is not relevant to what i'm saying. A smart coward is still a coward(not that kamui's smart but you get the point).

As for the other stuff, the writers really didn't handle the Nohr siblings well when it comes to their view on Garon's actions.

Leo says he acts behind Garon's back to protect innocents but we never hear his opinion on the invasion of Hoshido.

Camilla doesn't care about anything as long as Kamui remains unharmed.

And Elise....does she even say anything relevant. All 3 of them don't ever share their opinion on the invasion iirc.

Xander does object to Garon's actions, but at the end of the day his motto remains ''If you say so daddy''.

[Azure Sen]

Ethlyn was an idiot and no one defends her. What's your point?

That Ethlyn got called out by Quan for knowingly bringing her child into a dangerous situation and Sumeragi doesn't get called out by other characters because he had no reason to suspect he was bringing his children into a dangerous situation, nor was he doing anything improper by bringing them on a diplomatic mission? Admittedly I probably should have just said that outright.

[NekoKnight]

That Ethlyn got called out by Quan for knowingly bringing her child into a dangerous situation and Sumeragi doesn't get called out by other characters because he had no reason to suspect he was bringing his children into a dangerous situation, nor was he doing anything improper by bringing them on a diplomatic mission? Admittedly I probably should have just said that outright.

I'm not sure if the localized version shines more light on the incident (my impression was that it was only vaguely described) but a peace treaty signing doesn't sound like a good meet and greet for your young children. You take your children to meet allies, not "maybe not an enemy anymore?" types. Now, if there were some special context for why Sumeragi thought there wasn't a risk of danger, like a neutral party with a good reputation hosting the event (and my headcanon says Sumeragi was friends with the king of Chevalier) I'd believe it but from what I can gather from the narrative, Chevalier is essentially another territory of Nohr, far removed from Hoshidan support. That's not an event I would bring children too, least of all one as young as Kamui.

Garon's words in Japanese to Sumeragi were "You fell for such a trap? How naive, King Sumeragi." The localization made him even more condescending, suggesting that "this wasn't even my best trap." Even the story seems to think Sumeragi got duped pretty easily.

[MaysMrDolpin]

I, for one, am very glad that Corrin isn't Ike or Robin. I'm not really a big fan of either, they're too perfect, yeah they have determination and can accomplish anything (especially Ike). Seen that story before, I'm bored of it. There's only so many times you can keep me interested with the "hero overcomes impossible odds" story I've seen hundreds of times before. Awakening sure as hell didn't succeed. Path of Radiance did for a while because the stuff in Begnion is legit interesting, but I definitely got bored later on.

Different stories demand different characters. Corrin is a bit of a weakling and that's okay. She makes some big mistakes and it's interesting to think about why, because there are actually pretty good, in-character reasons for all of them! But some people don't like to see that in characters. That's okay, that's your right, I just disagree.

To be honest given how much random Corrin worship exists in some aspects of the game (everyone of the opposite sex can marry you, you perfect being you! And like a dozen characters have loyalty/love to you as one of their main traits!), I'm pretty happy she isn't just Little Ms. Perfect in the main plot.

Isn't that a trope usually common in shonen/harem medias? Maybe they're catering to the otakus especially with those confession scenes and touchy treehouse. (Though to be honest, I found some really cute but most? ugh)

[Emblem Blade]

Whether it's a good or bad idea is not relevant to what i'm saying. A smart coward is still a coward(not that kamui's smart but you get the point).

As for the other stuff, the writers really didn't handle the Nohr siblings well when it comes to their view on Garon's actions.

Leo says he acts behind Garon's back to protect innocents but we never hear his opinion on the invasion of Hoshido.

Camilla doesn't care about anything as long as Kamui remains unharmed.

And Elise....does she even say anything relevant. All 3 of them don't ever share their opinion on the invasion iirc.

Xander does object to Garon's actions, but at the end of the day his motto remains ''If you say so daddy''.

I do get the point, Corrin is dumb but that's common since just about every FE Lord is dumb for the most part of their main game in their first appearance.

People can influence one's actions, that's why I said I can't completely blame Corrin for their horrid actions in any route. In Conquest, none of the Nohr Siblings take so much of a great measure to correct their sibling's plans when it looks nearly stupid on paper, this becomes even more pathetic as Leo (the mastermind of Nohr's tacticians) should easily see the flaws in Corrin's plans if they even sound retarded and attempt to correct them. Corrin in Birthright gets this treatment as well but it's mostly on their siblings as they just listen and Takumi and Ryoma, the two intelligent minds don't really complain (Ryoma thinks that Corrin is brilliant even when it comes down to taking off-course routes that are well-known by the enemy).

In Revelations, while the allies do complain at points in the story about some of the choice actions Corrin decides to take, none of them really try to stop them. Kaze doesn't stop Corrin from having the army rush in to save Saizou when the older brother sent a signal for outside allies to not to intervene (even though it went in their favor). Gunter saw the danger of entering the Hoshido fortress in Chapter 8 but didn't stop them. Even when it became obvious in Chapter 13 where it was a 1-v-3 fight, none of Corrin's allies even bothered to tell them that it is best to avoid participating in the fight since the odds were against them (they were facing off against Ryoma, Xander and a Valla Berserker and who knows how many other enemies.

[eclipse]

With all three routes under my belt. . .

[spoiler=All three routes, heavy spoilers]If these complaints were about Revelations, I'd agree in a heartbeat. I can't see how any of the complaints about Conquest hold up when Revelations actually does it, and does it far worse. Corrin in Conquest had a reason to wait. Corrin in Revelations. . .gets a lot of praise, people trusting him for no apparent reason, and somehow ends up with a kingdom on top of it.

If the goal of Hoshido/Nohr were to be mirrors to each other, I think IS did a decent job of it. I suspect that's what it was supposed to be, because of how the major events play out (the order in which the siblings join, the death of the eldest son on the enemy side, Lilith dying to save Corrin, ending the games with two enemy siblings alive, a peace treaty).

Corrin in Birthright is probably the least-informed of his incarnations, and acts on it (albeit blandly). Corrin in Conquest has to find a way to move through a hostile environment, which rarely has a straightforward answer (wars on two fronts and all). Corrin in Revelations feels like an extension of Azura, with her calling the shots, him following, and everyone loving it.

So the tl;dr is that I think the hatred is misplaced, and should either be channeled on things that are good about Fates (like the character variety), or put where it belongs (towards the story of Revelations).

[BruceLee]

In Conquest, none of the Nohr Siblings take so much of a great measure to correct their sibling's plans when it looks nearly stupid on paper, this becomes even more pathetic as Leo (the mastermind of Nohr's tacticians) should easily see the flaws in Corrin's plans if they even sound retarded and attempt to correct them.

Can you give an example? I don't remember Leo ever being in a position to correct Kamui's stupid plans.

With all three routes under my belt. . .

[spoiler=All three routes, heavy spoilers]If these complaints were about Revelations, I'd agree in a heartbeat. I can't see how any of the complaints about Conquest hold up when Revelations actually does it, and does it far worse. Corrin in Conquest had a reason to wait. Corrin in Revelations. . .gets a lot of praise, people trusting him for no apparent reason, and somehow ends up with a kingdom on top of it.

If the goal of Hoshido/Nohr were to be mirrors to each other, I think IS did a decent job of it. I suspect that's what it was supposed to be, because of how the major events play out (the order in which the siblings join, the death of the eldest son on the enemy side, Lilith dying to save Corrin, ending the games with two enemy siblings alive, a peace treaty).

Corrin in Birthright is probably the least-informed of his incarnations, and acts on it (albeit blandly). Corrin in Conquest has to find a way to move through a hostile environment, which rarely has a straightforward answer (wars on two fronts and all). Corrin in Revelations feels like an extension of Azura, with her calling the shots, him following, and everyone loving it.

So the tl;dr is that I think the hatred is misplaced, and should either be channeled on things that are good about Fates (like the character variety), or put where it belongs (towards the story of Revelations).

Your argument is basically ''Revelations is worse, so stop complaining and be positive''. Am i getting that right?

Edited March 13, 2016 by BruceLee

[eclipse]

Your argument is basically ''Revelations is worse, so stop complaining and be positive''. Am i getting that right?

Nope.

My argument is. . .

You're accusing Conquest of things that happen in Revelations.

The "stop complaining and be positive" point is right. You're accomplishing a whole lot of nothing by complaining about the plot of a video game on a message board. Especially since there's now 30 pages of it. Remember what I said about mental health earlier? Constantly complaining about something you can't change is bad for you. I'm not happy with the story of Revelations, but I'm not going to post about it all day long. Instead, I'm going to go through all the routes again, and try out different units/pairings - that's what I like about Fates.

[Emblem Blade]

Can you give an example? I don't remember Leo ever being in a position to correct Kamui's stupid plans.

Your argument is basically ''Revelations is worse, so stop complaining and be positive''. Am i getting that right?

Once you get Leo in your team in Conquest, he's basically present from the point and onwards. Cutscenes or not, once you get Leo, he should have acted to stop Corrin before they make the same horrid mistakes repeatedly. That's what I'm trying to say regarding Leo here, feel free to correct me if I'm failing to understand anything.

[BruceLee]

Nope.

My argument is. . .

You're accusing Conquest of things that happen in Revelations.

The "stop complaining and be positive" point is right. You're accomplishing a whole lot of nothing by complaining about the plot of a video game on a message board. Especially since there's now 30 pages of it. Remember what I said about mental health earlier? Constantly complaining about something you can't change is bad for you. I'm not happy with the story of Revelations, but I'm not going to post about it all day long. Instead, I'm going to go through all the routes again, and try out different units/pairings - that's what I like about Fates.

Well you're right that pretty much everything has been said already, at this point i'm just responding to arguments i haven't seen before.

We can agree to disagree, my opinion still remains the same. Conquest's writing is a big pile of shit and so far, the people trying to defend it haven't been able to convince me otherwise. I don't know everything about Revelations yet but the thought if it being worse than Conquest is pretty terrifying.

Once you get Leo in your team in Conquest, he's basically present from the point and onwards. Cutscenes or not, once you get Leo, he should have acted to stop Corrin before they make the same horrid mistakes repeatedly. That's what I'm trying to say regarding Leo here, feel free to correct me if I'm failing to understand anything.

Which mistakes though?

The biggest mistake(invading Hoshido because slime), is kept secret from him.

Edited March 13, 2016 by BruceLee

[Katryn]

Can you give an example? I don't remember Leo ever being in a position to correct Kamui's stupid plans.

Your argument is basically ''Revelations is worse, so stop complaining and be positive''. Am i getting that right?

In regard to Leo, wouldn't his intervention at the Opera House count as a time when he was able to shift the way Corrin was doing something? This is the one time I can think of offhand where one of the siblings did try to help Corrin achieve his / her goals in a positive light, and it really increased my (already positive) opinion of Leo. I love him because while he's not perfect, it's clear between this situation and what he does in ch. 2 that he has been trying to do 'something' right, even if he's not always perfect. I heard someone somewhere suggest the game would have been more interesting with Leo as the lead and while I won't 100% back that--he's too many shades of gray for a main FE hero, alas, and would suffer had he been a player insert--I think a retelling where he was the heroic figure (meaning central character--not changing his overall morality and shades of gray) could be fascinating.

As for the speaking positively thing, I can get where @ eclipse is coming from. We can say all we like about Conquest--or any of the paths for that matter--and it's not gonna change a thing. I'm certainly not saying we can't discuss it. This is the internet and for a lot of us "WTF were they thinking when they did "insert thing here"!" is how conversation flows. Bad news travels fast and all that jazz. But at the same time, I've found myself trying to focus more on the aspects of the game that I love when I'm playing and only using my notes about things that make me go "what?!" if I am working on my own headcannons or planning for stories I want to write. Although that may be the key for me: if I don't like something, I can shift things when I go to tell my own stories in this universe. And that's a big part of why I'm really into FE with its tons of characters, multiple pairings, etc. Fates, with three alternate paths I can set a plot in, is actually a fantastic setup for some vastly different and fun story ideas.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Katryn

[eclipse]

We can agree to disagree, my opinion still remains the same. Conquest's writing is a big pile of shit and so far, the people trying to defend it haven't been able to convince me otherwise. I don't know everything about Revelations yet but the thought if it being worse than Conquest is pretty terrifying.

The difference is that there's logic behind Conquest. I can understand why things happened the way they did, even if I don't like it. If I can see the intent behind the writing, I'm more sympathetic to it.

I can justify some of the earlier chapters in Revelations. The logic takes a nose dive with the rest of your party at the Bottomless Canyon.

[Ebony]

With all three routes under my belt. . .

[spoiler=All three routes, heavy spoilers]If these complaints were about Revelations, I'd agree in a heartbeat. I can't see how any of the complaints about Conquest hold up when Revelations actually does it, and does it far worse. Corrin in Conquest had a reason to wait. Corrin in Revelations. . .gets a lot of praise, people trusting him for no apparent reason, and somehow ends up with a kingdom on top of it.

If the goal of Hoshido/Nohr were to be mirrors to each other, I think IS did a decent job of it. I suspect that's what it was supposed to be, because of how the major events play out (the order in which the siblings join, the death of the eldest son on the enemy side, Lilith dying to save Corrin, ending the games with two enemy siblings alive, a peace treaty).

Corrin in Birthright is probably the least-informed of his incarnations, and acts on it (albeit blandly). Corrin in Conquest has to find a way to move through a hostile environment, which rarely has a straightforward answer (wars on two fronts and all). Corrin in Revelations feels like an extension of Azura, with her calling the shots, him following, and everyone loving it.

So the tl;dr is that I think the hatred is misplaced, and should either be channeled on things that are good about Fates (like the character variety), or put where it belongs (towards the story of Revelations).

Yeah I won't lie. Revelations is pretty bad writing wise. I'd easily say worse then Conquest.

I LIKE IT THOUGH JUST BECAUSE OF THE NOHRIAN X HOSHIDAN CROSS MARRIAGES AND GETTING ALL THE CHARACTERS I WON'T EVEN LIE TO YOU

[Emblem Blade]

Yeah I won't lie. Revelations is pretty bad writing wise. I'd easily say worse then Conquest.

I LIKE IT THOUGH JUST BECAUSE OF THE NOHRIAN X HOSHIDAN CROSS MARRIAGES AND GETTING ALL THE CHARACTERS I WON'T EVEN LIE TO YOU

Revelations just ruins the story behind Birthright and Conquest. Birthright had motivation issues (characters being too sympathetic) while Conquest had a bad script problem (gameplay in Conquest win no matter what).

[Katryn]

Yeah I won't lie. Revelations is pretty bad writing wise. I'd easily say worse then Conquest.

I LIKE IT THOUGH JUST BECAUSE OF THE NOHRIAN X HOSHIDAN CROSS MARRIAGES AND GETTING ALL THE CHARACTERS I WON'T EVEN LIE TO YOU

Yes. I must confess that regardless of whatever else Revelation has in store for me it has already given me the end of ch. 10 which is my favorite thing I've seen in any part of Fates three paths. Plus it's gonna let me pair *them* up and have supports. This is all emotionally based, of course, rather than looking at things from a literary analysis standpoint. XD

I'm talking about Leo and Sakura, for anyone who's totally confused.

[BruceLee]

In regard to Leo, wouldn't his intervention at the Opera House count as a time when he was able to shift the way Corrin was doing something? This is the one time I can think of offhand where one of the siblings did try to help Corrin achieve his / her goals in a positive light, and it really increased my (already positive) opinion of Leo. I love him because while he's not perfect, it's clear between this situation and what he does in ch. 2 that he has been trying to do 'something' right, even if he's not always perfect. I heard someone somewhere suggest the game would have been more interesting with Leo as the lead and while I won't 100% back that--he's too many shades of gray for a main FE hero, alas, and would suffer had he been a player insert--I think a retelling where he was the heroic figure (meaning central character--not changing his overall morality and shades of gray) could be fascinating.

As for the speaking positively thing, I can get where @ eclipse is coming from. We can say all we like about Conquest--or any of the paths for that matter--and it's not gonna change a thing. I'm certainly not saying we can't discuss it. This is the internet and for a lot of us "WTF were they thinking when they did "insert thing here"!" is how conversation flows. Bad news travels fast and all that jazz. But at the same time, I've found myself trying to focus more on the aspects of the game that I love when I'm playing and only using my notes about things that make me go "what?!" if I am working on my own headcannons or planning for stories I want to write. Although that may be the key for me: if I don't like something, I can shift things when I go to tell my own stories in this universe. And that's a big part of why I'm really into FE with its tons of characters, multiple pairings, etc. Fates, with three alternate paths I can set a plot in, is actually a fantastic setup for some vastly different and fun story ideas.

That's true about chapter 14, but i was asking for an example of Leo not correcting Kamui when possible. Which i don't think ever was the case. I also like Leo, he's one of my favorites from Nohr. How he would be as MC would indeed depend on how the story is altered.

I didn't want to spoil myself too much on Birthright's story so i watched an LP of Conquest, that's what got me itching to vent about it on here lol. But while there are a lot of things wrong with the writing, Fates definitely looks like an overall great game. The gameplay looks amazing and has a lot of depth and replay value and great supports. If only EU got the game already, i would be playing the game instead flooding this place with my thoughts. I should actually be staying away from this forum, it's only making the wait worse lol.

Edited March 13, 2016 by BruceLee

[Thane]

I'm talking about Leo and Sakura, for anyone who's totally confused.

Scrub, Leo belongs to Takumi

[Sunwoo]

I feel like Fates would've been a far more interesting story if anyone besides Kamui had been the protagonist.

We could have Ryouma or Marx as the leads of Birthright and Conquest, respectively. Actually, any of the sibling pairs would have worked. I think Takumi and Leon might've been a good as main lords in their respective routes, as they're kind of in the same age range as the "typical" FE lord and they'd have an excuse to start off lower-leveled and to raise up.

[Katryn]

Scrub, Leo belongs to Takumi

While I can definitely see the basis for people claiming that, and I totally have nothing against the pairing, there are already twenty zillion fics about it. Do we really need another? =P :) (FWIW, I'm taking your comment as totally tongue in cheek. :) )

@ Sunwoo: My two favorite Fates characters as the main lords? Yes, that could have been lovely. (Provided they had been as interesting as they are here and now.)

[Thane]

While I can definitely see the basis for people claiming that, and I totally have nothing against the pairing, there are already twenty zillion fics about it. Do we really need another? =P :) (FWIW, I'm taking your comment as totally tongue in cheek. :) )

@ Sunwoo: My two favorite Fates characters as the main lords? Yes, that could have been lovely. (Provided they had been as interesting as they are here and now.)

Oh yes. I usually jokingly say that their support is the funniest and most romantic in the entire game. I do genuinely mean it though when i say it's probably the best one there is in this game. However, I'm a weak man and can't pair Takumi and Oboro up with anyone else. I don't care if it doesn't give Takumi much of a class change, he's a monster of a unit already.

I really wish Conquest saw it fit to answer Leo's question towards the end there.

Leo: "Why didn't you tell us earlier?"

Corrin: "Uuuh..."

Azura: "We couldn't!"

Leo: "Oh okay."

Seriously though, he'd be a good protagonist I think.

[Sunwoo]

Oh yes. I usually jokingly say that their support is the funniest and most romantic in the entire game. I do genuinely mean it though when i say it's probably the best one there is in this game. However, I'm a weak man and can't pair Takumi and Oboro up with anyone else. I don't care if it doesn't give Takumi much of a class change, he's a monster of a unit already.

Yoooo, Thane, I always knew I liked you give me a high five

Edited March 13, 2016 by Sunwoo

[BruceLee]

Oh yes. I usually jokingly say that their support is the funniest and most romantic in the entire game. I do genuinely mean it though when i say it's probably the best one there is in this game. However, I'm a weak man and can't pair Takumi and Oboro up with anyone else. I don't care if it doesn't give Takumi much of a class change, he's a monster of a unit already.

I really wish Conquest saw it fit to answer Leo's question towards the end there.

Leo: "Why didn't you tell us earlier?"

Corrin: "Uuuh..."

Azura: "We couldn't!"

Leo: "Oh okay."

Seriously though, he'd be a good protagonist I think.

I also tend to be tempted to pair characters like Takumi and Oboro together, it just feels right. I have the same feeling with Ryoma and Kagero.

[Thane]

Yoooo, Thane, I always knew I liked you give me a high five

I don't deserve it, because if it were possible, I would've paired up Takumi with Velour because I imagine their supports would be hilarious.

Oh my god I'm becoming a shipper.

[Katryn]

Oh yes. I usually jokingly say that their support is the funniest and most romantic in the entire game. I do genuinely mean it though when i say it's probably the best one there is in this game. However, I'm a weak man and can't pair Takumi and Oboro up with anyone else. I don't care if it doesn't give Takumi much of a class change, he's a monster of a unit already.

I totally hear you about Oboro x Takumi. I like pairing characters up if I know one character likes another. There are enough unhappy endings in life when real people date--silly as it sounds it makes me feel good to know I have the power to at least make these characters get what they want. Plus, it's really clear he's into her, too. Alas, the game does such a good job at pairing them up that I'm not compelled to write them. They don't really have a legit conflict to move a romance plot forward. They're a fine pairing as a side couple or as a romantic subplot, but not for the type of story I tend to gravitate toward.

@BruceLee Yes, I know you were asking for the opposite. I either misclicked or misread the quote I grabbed, taking yours rather than whoever brought Leo up. My point was that while I couldn't find the failed attempt (if anything I think we're looking at an omission rather than deliberately not wanting to help Corrin) I could easily find two incidents where Leo did help him / her, plus if we look at his behavior in other routes we can see, from a meta standpoint, that Leo can be reasoned with. I hate going that latter route, though, because I try to look at each route as its own story. The only way looking at the whole would work (in my opinion) was if the games were suppose to be viewed in some kind of Groundhog Day-esque scenario. Otherwise, it seems like I'm going to be more happy if I look at the three branches like IS got characters, worldbuilding, etc. and then these three things came to be much in the same way I'll end up taking the same pieces and creating my own work. Sorry if that's getting a bit sidetracked. :) (I really want to get going on the story ideas I've got floating around in my head, but I do not write without an outline and that's not done yet.)