Why did people dislike the bloodpatch concept?

[IceBrand]

Was it because it was not foreshadowed at all in POR? Was it an easy excuse to make te Daein army fight?

[MCProductions]

I don't mind it in concept, I just dislike it in execution. Without establishing actual rules to the Bloodpact, like what constitutes a Daein citizen for the curse to know who to kill, or HOW the curse knows who not to kill, the thing becomes a walking plot hole.

[bottlegnomes]

Because the logistics as presented are laughably vague (I've gone into detail before, and if you want I can, but I won't for right now), and it was a shoehorned plot device to force conflict between the two primary protagonists instead of any of the better reasons that would've meant sullying Micaiah or Pelleas's reputations, e.g. Daein being super racist and Pelleas wanting to keep his people happy.

[Augestein]

Was it because it was not foreshadowed at all in POR? Was it an easy excuse to make te Daein army fight?

It's not that, it's the vague rules for it that cause people to hate it. It's like "it kills people in the country," but even by the rules established in the game we don't know what the heck it does.

The story with Ashnard where they turn him from a badass that shrugged off all sorts of illnesses that took at their entire family? Nope. It's not that he's a badass, it's that he used underhanded tactics to actually win... Which actually hurts Ashnard's entire character and is a complete contradiction to what he says in PoR:

First this:

Ashnard

My sole desire is to rule through strength. The weak perish, and the strong live on... This is the law of nature. It is the law the goddess herself created when she forged this world.

It ignores that ideology that he had. Call him boring all you want, but at least Ashnard stuck to his guns in PoR.

Bryce

...From the fifteenth year of my life...and for twenty more years until his death... I did serve him faithfully.

Ashnard

The thing that killed my father was not plague, nor was it another illness. It was me.

Bryce

Wh-what?

Ashnard

Oh, but it doesn't end there. There was my stepmother, too. And every brother who stood to be a legitimate heir...All of them died by my hand.

I'd hardly count-- tricking someone to sign a paper that gets other people killed randomly is "died by my hand." Here, it showcases a form of demented nature that is so hellbent on making his world based on his law of nature that he'd kill his own family. It's sickening, but that's who he was. RD destroys that.

It also brings up a good point, why didn't anyone suspect foul play? Why did everyone just kind of shrug and let it happen? How did Ashnard know of this, but no one else in the line? Did Sephiran make the blood pact? Nope. He's never used for it, and the blood pact in RD is literally the equivalent to "a wizard did it."

Daein needs to fight Begnion? Madness! Why are they doing this!? Blood Pact.

Kilvas sided with us after the horrid sight he saw in PoR that finally convinced him to stray from his thieving ways and straight out! Why did he turn on us AGAIN!? Oh, Blood pact. That was apparently always there. Seriously WTF? Why didn't they just activate the Blood Pact to ever stop this bastard from siding with Daein in the first place then? And it wasn't Kilvas that signed it either, it's implied the father did, so it makes NO sense how they kept it around for so long.

All of the characters on your side are only "opposing" you from a thing that we never so little as get to read the rules. And RD doesn't help at all with them. Because you have conversations like this:

Micaiah vs Ike

Ike: Micaiah, we have to talk. This is insane.

Micaiah: What’s insane about a people fighting for their country?

Ike: There’s got to be something we can do! Let us help, please!

Micaiah: Why would you want to help us, after everything we’ve done? No, after everything I’ve done…

Ike: We know you don’t want this fight. Isn’t there any way for us to avoid it?

Micaiah: …No. No, I’m afraid there isn’t.

Ike: Just talk to me! We can find a way!

Micaiah: You don’t understand. We can’t stop. I’m sorry, but I can’t explain it more clearly than that.

Ike: Micaiah, I don’t want you to die. I don’t want all of your soldiers to die. You have to let me help you.

Micaiah: Ike… Now I see it. Now it makes sense.

Ike: What makes sense?

Micaiah: Sothe always spoke so highly of you. Now I know the reason. You truly are a good person. It’s a shame…

Ike: Why is that a shame?

Micaiah: Because it makes what I have to do even harder. Please prepare yourself. Let’s put an end to this.

Ike: As you wish. Good-bye, Micaiah.

Micaiah: (The light of life! Shine a ray upon my path and) …strike my enemy!

I'm grabbing them directly from the scripts here for this: so Micaiah can't explain why? Is that some sort of rule? Can the blood pact people just activate it whenever?

Zihark: King Pelleas. Would you please listen to what I have to say?

Pelleas: Zihark. What is there to talk about? You’ve deserted your country and your people.

Zihark: I just don’t understand. I thought I knew you. You are a good, kind man. Why do you continue to fight for those bloodsucking senators?

Pelleas: I don’t want to talk about it.

Zihark: Your Majesty…

Pelleas: It doesn’t concern you anymore. You’ve abandoned Daein–and us. If you want to stop us, use your sword–not words.

Zihark: My sword and my allegiance do lie elsewhere now, it’s true. But I am not without honor. I will not draw my sword against the man I call my king, no matter what.

Pelleas: …I’m sorry, Zihark. At least you’ll be spared from the curse of the pact.

How does Pelleas know he'll be spared? They are both in Daein soil and he's a Daein citizen. So on what grounds does he know this? So if every citizen rage quits Daein, they are fine? What? And he says this for Jill too, so it's not even a mistake with Zihark. So you know what this means?

(Edward and Leonardo are alive)

Leonardo: Say, Edward. We’ve been fighting really hard for quite a while now, haven’t we?

Edward: Yeah, I guess so. The war of emancipation, the war against the Laguz Alliance, and now against the apostle’s army. One after another, just like that.

Leonardo: The world can’t always be like this. These wars seem so pointless. All I want is to be able to live in Daein, peacefully and in freedom.

Edward: Yeah. The military is a pretty strange place. Hey, I have an idea! Once this battle is over, I’ll quit the army and go home.

Leonardo: What about Micaiah and the others? Are you going to abandon them?

Edward: What? No way! I’ll just have to talk them into leaving with me! And if that catches on, all the soldiers will leave, and then there can’t be a war. And then Daein will have peace again!

Leonardo: You know, I don’t think it’s that simple. But your plan sounds good to me, Edward.

Edward: See? You know it’s smart. First, you and I will leave. Together, we can tackle any obstacle!

Leonardo: We’ll have to survive the next battle, first. This should help. Here. Look what I got you.

Edward: Oh! This sword is amazing! Where did you get this!?

Leonardo: I’ve been saving up. Micaiah chipped in, too.

Edward: You got this for me?

Leonardo: Yeah. Since you’re always fighting so recklessly, I thought this sword would be a good match for you.

Edward: Thanks, Leonardo! You’re the best friend I could have!

Leonardo: I know. We’re each other’s best friend and family.

Edward is too pro. Edward's plan is quite literally the best plan to stop the blood pact. Screw Micaiah, screw Soren's tactics, or even Ike's supposed leadership for a minute. Why is this guy right!? You don't need to destroy the blood pact, all anyone has to do is leave Daein as a citizen. Which ironically enough, at the end of the game, Micaiah rules over Daein, so all that had to happen was for Pelleas to give Daein to Micaiah, call it "Dayen" and they are done. It's so messy it's unbelievable. Especially when you have things like Pelleas dying and then... It doesn't stop the pact because... ?

“The curse on the blood pact will begin killing our people as soon as we do anything the senate doesn’t care for. Defeating the senate doesn’t guarantee the curse will be broken either. In fact, it may ensure it can never be broken. In which case, Daein’s destruction will come more slowly, but it will come nonetheless.”

What does that even mean? The curse is like a mood ring and just kinda starts RNGing all over the place when the senate isn't happy? And then, when Pelleas dies from reading the Wiki book, the curse doesn't break because...?

[Sentacotus]

^I don't know if this helps anything but if I recall correctly there was a part of the blood pact where anyone knowing anything about it couldn't talk about it because it would activate the curse (kinda like a primed nuclear warhead I guess).

Also as far as the last sentence you mentioned I think they figured out the only way to kill the pact was to literally rip the piece of paper to shreds which they end up doing. Pelleas was trying to find a way to get around it but it failed because the only way to end it is to rip the pact itself.

[Acacia Sgt]

I'll admit the Blood Pact thing is among the things I least like of the game. With some of the problems it causes in its execution (No matter how racist Daein is to the Laguz, those three years of oppresive Begnion occupation can't just seemingly vanish from their minds in order to be willing to side with them. If anything, the populace's train of thought should've been one of preferring to just see them destroy each other. Then again, at this point the Micaiah worship was all-time high and if she doesn't question Pelleas's orders, why would they...). Also not a fan of the whole "forced cohersion" thing. Magic or not.

I'm grabbing them directly from the scripts here for this: so Micaiah can't explain why? Is that some sort of rule? Can the blood pact people just activate it whenever?

I don't think it can activate on its own if one party doesn't hold their end of the deal. Lekain states that they are gonna keep tabs on them. And we do see someone doing just that in 3-11. But also likely they had people doing so covertly than in the open. Although I do find it a little far-fetched that they could do this 24/7... but well...

What does that even mean? The curse is like a mood ring and just kinda starts RNGing all over the place when the senate isn't happy? And then, when Pelleas dies from reading the Wiki book, the curse doesn't break because...?

From what is seen in the game, it seems Blood Pacts operate on the "exact words" clause. The document probably states "Daein's Ruler" instead of having Pelleas's actual name. So when he dies and Micaiah becomes Daein's de facto leader, she is now "Daein's Ruler", so the document is still in effect. It's also probably the reason Naesala can obey Sanaki without activating the curse, even if it goes against the Senator's orders. Kilvas's document probably only states Begnion without specifying a name or position (same for Kilvas, which is why Naesala inherited the curse from the former King as well). So as Empress, Sanaki outranks the Senators as far as the document cares about.

Though if it does, then it just brings again the issue of "then why not just dissolve Daein as a political entity?" But well, that's more of a thing the characters don't think up because it's so unusual.

[Anacybele]

The curse didn't break when Pelleas died because Lekain had to be dead as well, which he wasn't at the time. Micaiah and co. find this out later. To break the curse, both the signer of the pact and the creator of the pact had to die, then the pact had to be torn up.

I really liked the Bloodpact, to be honest. I thought it was a genius idea! Creepy, but genius! It probably could've been executed better though, given that I see a lot of people say this.

[Etrurian emperor]

The story with Ashnard where they turn him from a badass that shrugged off all sorts of illnesses that took at their entire family? Nope. It's not that he's a badass, it's that he used underhanded tactics to actually win... Which actually hurts Ashnard's entire character and is a complete contradiction to what he says in PoR:

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the blood pact between the previous king and a random mage? Since Ashnard was not one of the signers he should be open to the curse illness to just as much as anyone else in Daien was. So would that mean he actually did shrug off the illness until the time was right to kill the king and cancel the pact.

Such a gamble of ''If the curse strikes me and I'l die before the right time then I was to weak to begin with'' Does seem somewhat in line with Ashnard's personality.

I can't say I like the blood pact myself. Ashnard personally killing his family sounds much more impressive then having a piece of magical paper do it. I agree with bottlegnomes that it was just a way to make Ike and Michaia fight despite there being better, more interesting and less stupid ways to do so. Its not like Daein would need any motivation. They are racist against the Laguz, have a grudge against Crimea and probably have quite the bone to pick with the Greil mercenary. It wouldn't even have to be them openly siding with Begnion. Being a young, inexperienced king Pelleas could just have decided to take advantage of all his former enemies fighting each other and attack them.

[Augestein]

I don't think it can activate on its own if one party doesn't hold their end of the deal. Lekain states that they are gonna keep tabs on them. And we do see someone doing just that in 3-11. But also likely they had people doing so covertly than in the open. Although I do find it a little far-fetched that they could do this 24/7... but well...

It's not a little far-fetched. It's completely absurd. Especially because you have people like Jill and Zihark able to switch sides, and the two of them WON'T tell, but the dialogue has them saying things like "I can't leave," not, "I won't leave," which gives some sort of implications that they have some idea what is going on. But then two seconds later, you have Micaiah and company tell Rafiel and Naliah about what's happening. Seriously, it's that dumb. These spies apparently have omnipotent abilities to see you whatever they want, whenever it's convenient to make the flimsy plot advance. That's the problem.

From what is seen in the game, it seems Blood Pacts operate on the "exact words" clause. The document probably states "Daein's Ruler" instead of having Pelleas's actual name. So when he dies and Micaiah becomes Daein's de facto leader, she is now "Daein's Ruler", so the document is still in effect. It's also probably the reason Naesala can obey Sanaki without activating the curse, even if it goes against the Senator's orders. Kilvas's document probably only states Begnion without specifying a name or position (same for Kilvas, which is why Naesala inherited the curse from the former King as well). So as Empress, Sanaki outranks the Senators as far as the document cares about.

Though if it does, then it just brings again the issue of "then why not just dissolve Daein as a political entity?" But well, that's more of a thing the characters don't think up because it's so unusual.

Which makes it completely absurd, because Micaiah wasn't the ruler of Daein at the time. She was their general. This should have meant that literally no one was able to be hit by the Blood Pact the minute Pelleas died because there was no ruler of Daein. And if Pelleas had to die, this would be fine. But he doesn't. He can keep on living and the pact is gone. The Micaiah Blood Pact simply makes no sense. And the blood pact doesn't work for Naesala because it makes no sense why it wasn't used on Naesala in the first place to force Kilvas to not side with Daein. Even if we ignore that there was no "advantage" to using it here, and they didn't use it here... It still makes the document rules poorly constructed, because then Sanaki should be the one who would need to die for this to even work. Not Lekain. Because she's also bound to the document because it clearly works for her as well. Plain and simple it should have just been "the document needs to be destroyed" and that's it. But it doesn't have that, it adds the clause of having it be a "someone dies" and then the destruction of the document. And I point out again, that it makes the entire thing ridiculous that we never get a glimpse of who this traveling man is, or how people from Begnion found out about this of all people. And it still doesn't really point out where the heck this thing originates from. You can't have something this bizarre and fantastical-- even by the character's impressions for a game in an already fantastical world be this unexplained in the lore. Like I said, we don't even know how it works. Does it activate by a spell? Emotions?

How does it work for killing is it random? Because if it is, that makes Ashnard's plan the worst plan ever. He literally took a strategy of "I hope I don't die to it." And he lied, it was a plague that killed them. The curse clearly hit people with a plague that kills them, as described in both PoR and RD. And it still contradicts the whole "I killed them" bit. He didn't kill them. The Blood Pact did. The implications for what he did in PoR is that he actually went around and slayed them, killing a person that was inflicted with a curse is not the same thing. Especially when he hinged on "sheer dumb luck" for his plan to work. Micaiah mentions peasants getting sick as well. Ashnard's entire character is effectively destroyed in RD by the blood pact. It makes him stupid and weak, and not even in the way that makes him more endearing like say... Lyon.

The curse didn't break when Pelleas died because Lekain had to be dead as well, which he wasn't at the time. Micaiah and co. find this out later. To break the curse, both the signer of the pact and the creator of the pact had to die, then the pact had to be torn up.

I really liked the Bloodpact, to be honest. I thought it was a genius idea! Creepy, but genius! It probably could've been executed better though, given that I see a lot of people say this.

I'd agree with that... If the 2nd playthrough option didn't exist, I'd be more apt to agree with that. That's the issue. The rules are leaning towards "1 person bound must be killed AND the contract must be destroyed." It's still confusing though, because why would Pelleas sign a document but also not have a copy? It brings Pelleas to a level of stupid that's almost unforgivable. And even then, we're left with Almedha's words for how the pact even works, and it's still a bit of a guess, and even more bizarre that a BOOK wouldn't know how the pact works, but someone like Ashnard would. It brings up even more holes in the plot because you're left scratching your head wondering who on earth explained this to him? Even if you assume the mysterious man is Sephiran, we're still left wondering how he came up with this blood pact.

I like the idea of a pact that curses multiple people and punishes them for actions, but not... Like this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the blood pact between the previous king and a random mage? Since Ashnard was not one of the signers he should be open to the curse illness to just as much as anyone else in Daien was. So would that mean he actually did shrug off the illness until the time was right to kill the king and cancel the pact.

Such a gamble of ''If the curse strikes me and I'l die before the right time then I was to weak to begin with'' Does seem somewhat in line with Ashnard's personality.

I can't say I like the blood pact myself. Ashnard personally killing his family sounds much more impressive then having a piece of magical paper do it. I agree with bottlegnomes that it was just a way to make Ike and Michaia fight despite there being better, more interesting and less stupid ways to do so. Its not like Daein would need any motivation. They are racist against the Laguz, have a grudge against Crimea and probably have quite the bone to pick with the Greil mercenary. It wouldn't even have to be them openly siding with Begnion. Being a young, inexperienced king Pelleas could just have decided to take advantage of all his former enemies fighting each other and attack them.

It was a "traveling wise man" according to the game. That's all we know. And the thing here, is that it changes the entire outcome of the story for Ashnard. The original story we're given is that there was a plague that went around and killed everyone. The truth is that Ashnard said he killed everyone. But inflicting everyone with a plague to kill them and then killing your father when he's in his weakest state is the complete opposite of being strong. It'd show more strength he just straight up killed them, and I reiterate that his dialogue in the first one says "there was no plague, there was no illness." So it's just plain wrong here. If none of that was true, then it makes Ashnard telling that to Bryce completely pointless. Because it's not even true.

I definitely agree that this blood pact was made to make Ike and Micaiah fight without having them be "ruined" as characters.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Augestein

[DrewHak]

From what i've seen, all I can simply say is the the Blood Pact is just another damn plot device used to allow certain situations to happen, and just keep the plot moving forward and somewhat interesting. It's what drives Daein to fight against Ike, it's what got Ashnard in power, also kinda adding onto his evil and nutjob persona, risking his life and all of that jazz, and it's the reason Naesala seems like a bad-ass anti her for most of GC/Wii era. That's all there is too it, it's a plot device to help develop interesting lore, stories, and just keep stuff moving. Doesn't seem like they put much other thought into it.

[Acacia Sgt]

It's not a little far-fetched. It's completely absurd. Especially because you have people like Jill and Zihark able to switch sides, and the two of them WON'T tell, but the dialogue has them saying things like "I can't leave," not, "I won't leave," which gives some sort of implications that they have some idea what is going on. But then two seconds later, you have Micaiah and company tell Rafiel and Naliah about what's happening. Seriously, it's that dumb. These spies apparently have omnipotent abilities to see you whatever they want, whenever it's convenient to make the flimsy plot advance. That's the problem.

Which makes it completely absurd, because Micaiah wasn't the ruler of Daein at the time. She was their general. This should have meant that literally no one was able to be hit by the Blood Pact the minute Pelleas died because there was no ruler of Daein. And if Pelleas had to die, this would be fine. But he doesn't. He can keep on living and the pact is gone. The Micaiah Blood Pact simply makes no sense. And the blood pact doesn't work for Naesala because it makes no sense why it wasn't used on Naesala in the first place to force Kilvas to not side with Daein. Even if we ignore that there was no "advantage" to using it here, and they didn't use it here... It still makes the document rules poorly constructed, because then Sanaki should be the one who would need to die for this to even work. Not Lekain. Because she's also bound to the document because it clearly works for her as well. Plain and simple it should have just been "the document needs to be destroyed" and that's it. But it doesn't have that, it adds the clause of having it be a "someone dies" and then the destruction of the document. And I point out again, that it makes the entire thing ridiculous that we never get a glimpse of who this traveling man is, or how people from Begnion found out about this of all people. And it still doesn't really point out where the heck this thing originates from. You can't have something this bizarre and fantastical-- even by the character's impressions for a game in an already fantastical world be this unexplained in the lore. Like I said, we don't even know how it works. Does it activate by a spell? Emotions?

How does it work for killing is it random? Because if it is, that makes Ashnard's plan the worst plan ever. He literally took a strategy of "I hope I don't die to it." And he lied, it was a plague that killed them. The curse clearly hit people with a plague that kills them, as described in both PoR and RD. And it still contradicts the whole "I killed them" bit. He didn't kill them. The Blood Pact did. The implications for what he did in PoR is that he actually went around and slayed them, killing a person that was inflicted with a curse is not the same thing. Especially when he hinged on "sheer dumb luck" for his plan to work. Micaiah mentions peasants getting sick as well. Ashnard's entire character is effectively destroyed in RD by the blood pact. It makes him stupid and weak, and not even in the way that makes him more endearing like say... Lyon.

Yeah, the Blood Pact and related stuff is certainly a bad executed concept.

Well, maybe because she is their general. Perhaps Daein's law states that the general becomes leader if there's no monarch. Or because it's the second in command post, by default it becomes the first if the other is not available. Either way, at this point it was no secret Daein saw Micaiah as someone worthy to follow, so with Pelleas gone, they'd default to her anyway, and thus, the position as leader is put on her.

Well, with Kilvas in PoR, other than chances are high the Blood Pact concept wasn't yet conceived, if we try to retroactively add it... well, Begnion didn't express much care about it since it was strictly a Daein-Crimea thing. Once Begnion got involved... well, Kilvas did pulled out shortly after that anyway. Ch19 is the last time we fight non-feral ravens if I remember right after all.

Regarding the document... actually, the Japanese version states once 4-E-1 is completed that Kilvas's Blood Pact can't be removed. At least, not at the moment or in the near future. Again, most likely because in that particular Pact, the creator was "Begnion". So "Begnion" would have to "die" so that the "signer and creator" condition would have to be fulfilled. So that's just localization plothole. The English version of RD does have a fair amount of cut text compared to its Japanese counterpart.

Well, if the Blood Pacts do work on exact words then Ashnard most likely ensured he'd be safe by having the pact include a

if (heir==Ashnard) {

Kill? N

}

"Except for Ashnard" sentence in there to ensure his safety. Though well, that's if they do go for exact words.

[Augestein]

Yeah, but if we go by that rule, that means that literally Sanaki was the person to kill to end the blood pact for Begnion. Which might be what they were trying to imply with Kilvas hence why he says "in the future they'll be safe" But, it's still weak because that means that Sanaki should have been born with a mark from the start then if the pact was made before she was born. It's little details like this here and there that make it truly impossible to tell what they had in mind for the rules of the pact. This is why people simply say it in the simplest terms-- it became nothing more than a plot device because it's not explained at all.

I agree the concept wasn't conceived at all for Kilvas. It's too obvious by how long it takes Naesala to come around in PoR for it to be remotely close to being acceptable or sensible.

Actually, I know why it was removed in the localization for this (barring that all of the extended scenes were just removed), because it makes in no way to actually make this make sense. That's the problem. The extended scene makes it heavily implied that it's Sanaki or Kilvas that must die, but it leaves an even more unpleasant and stupid implication that makes more plotholes. How does Naesala having the parchment mean that he's safe "for now?" It circles right back to the "how the hell does this actually work?" The regular scene with Kilvas sort of just gives it to him, but the player would assume he destroyed it as well. The only way to get this form of "what...?" Is when you don't have Naesala present, but with extended, it's always a muddled mess. If that's the case, how was there ever a problem of the pact NOT being able to be ended? Heck, the game says that the pact "weakens" after Lekain died-- which seems to mean that if both parties are dead, the pact shouldn't be working at all. It's just so needlessly "ughtastic" and messy. It's like it tries to justify Lekain's stupidity of actually carrying the pacts with him by acting like it'll only work if you have it physically on you, but that didn't stop Sanaki from using it haha.

That Ashnard bit you wrote? Hilarious.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Augestein

[Acacia Sgt]

Yeah, but if we go by that rule, that means that literally Sanaki was the person to kill to end the blood pact for Begnion. Which might be what they were trying to imply with Kilvas hence why he says "in the future they'll be safe" But, it's still weak because that means that Sanaki should have been born with a mark from the start then if the pact was made before she was born. It's little details like this here and there that make it truly impossible to tell what they had in mind for the rules of the pact. This is why people simply say it in the simplest terms-- it became nothing more than a plot device because it's not explained at all.

I agree the concept wasn't conceived at all for Kilvas. It's too obvious by how long it takes Naesala to come around in PoR for it to be remotely close to being acceptable or sensible.

Actually, I know why it was removed in the localization for this (barring that all of the extended scenes were just removed), because it makes in no way to actually make this make sense. That's the problem. The extended scene makes it heavily implied that it's Sanaki or Kilvas that must die, but it leaves an even more unpleasant and stupid implication that makes more plotholes. How does Naesala having the parchment mean that he's safe "for now?" It circles right back to the "how the hell does this actually work?" The regular scene with Kilvas sort of just gives it to him, but the player would assume he destroyed it as well. The only way to get this form of "what...?" Is when you don't have Naesala present, but with extended, it's always a muddled mess. If that's the case, how was there ever a problem of the pact NOT being able to be ended? Heck, the game says that the pact "weakens" after Lekain died-- which seems to mean that if both parties are dead, the pact shouldn't be working at all. It's just so needlessly "ughtastic" and messy. It's like it tries to justify Lekain's stupidity of actually carrying the pacts with him by acting like it'll only work if you have it physically on you, but that didn't stop Sanaki from using it haha.

That Ashnard bit you wrote? Hilarious.

Not necessarily, since Sanaki's death doesn't mean the death of Begnion. The country can still exist. Though I suppose you have a point about that pact's mark appearances.

Well, to be fair, Begnion didn't got involved until after Ch17, and the ravens pulled out in Ch19. The time-gap may not be that big.

Again, I don't think it implies Sanaki needs to die since one person a country does not make. Or at least certainly not with Begnion. And about Kilvas being safe by Naesala holding the document... well, if the creator needs the document to activate it, then it does make sense since then the document would be away from Begnion's hands.

But yeah, they still have too many logistics problems.

Eh, I wouldn't say Sanaki used the pact. As the pact can only seems to be used to activate/deactivate the curse. Rather, she can and did use the contents of the pact to wrestle Kilvas's control from the senate.

[Augestein]

Not necessarily, since Sanaki's death doesn't mean the death of Begnion. The country can still exist. Though I suppose you have a point about that pact's mark appearances.

Well, to be fair, Begnion didn't got involved until after Ch17, and the ravens pulled out in Ch19. The time-gap may not be that big.

Again, I don't think it implies Sanaki needs to die since one person a country does not make. Or at least certainly not with Begnion. And about Kilvas being safe by Naesala holding the document... well, if the creator needs the document to activate it, then it does make sense since then the document would be away from Begnion's hands.

But yeah, they still have too many logistics problems.

Eh, I wouldn't say Sanaki used the pact. As the pact can only seems to be used to activate/deactivate the curse. Rather, she can and did use the contents of the pact to wrestle Kilvas's control from the senate.

Then the context of this makes no sense then. It doesn't actually say "Begnion" it just dances around with that notion, that's the key. All you can do is guess because no one wants to say anything. It seems less of an illogical conclusion to assume it means "Sanaki's natural death" than waiting for a country to actually die.

But it's not until Chapter 28 "Twisted Towers" that he actually throws his cards in favor of fighting with them. Yet, here with Daein, they do the same thing here that they could've done earlier.

It never says this about Begnion. It just "implies" there's nothing definitive about it. And again, I reiterate, if it requires the person to actually be currently holding the document, then the answer is "find the document," there isn't any real need to ensure that anyone actually has to die. Because if the document is destroyed, then it can't be activated because a destroyed document cannot be held by anyone. Which causes more problems then it actually solves because characters state that defeating the senate isn't enough and could cause the pact to NEVER end (implying that it's not activated by anyone in particular and just *does* things). And it still doesn't explain how Sanaki can supersede it when she's not even actively holding the parchment if we go by the rule that you need to actually be carrying it but Naesala can stop it by holding the parchment. Sure you could argue-- Sanaki won't activate it, but if we're to assume that you need the document, then Sanaki can't activate it because she didn't have it before Lekain was defeated... Meaning that he could always still use it because he was the "ruler" or whatever the party was on the pact that was actively holding it. So what's the point of not destroying it right then and there? So basically the logic is this:

Lekain needs to hold it to use it. But Lekain can't use it because Sanaki supersedes him as the Apostle despite not actually holding the document physically. However, Sanaki doesn't seem to have a mark, which she would have to in order to actually use the blood pact in the first place because she needs to be an actual party to the contract-- as we see that Lekain has one based on the Micaiah or Sothe conversation with Lekain that he actually has a mark too. So... There's no explanation for why Sanaki can supersede it or even prevent its activation then. So that can't be it. But if we role with the "country of Begnion" it makes less sense. There's no reason that Naesala should be holding the document then, because that literally means that if we go by the "Begnion" thing, ANYONE should be able to boss Naesala around and everyone should have marks on them because they should be tied to the blood pact itself. It's like... They have this interesting idea but when asked for explanations they just kind of shrug and make it do whatever is the most convenient thing they need it to do.

Which would mean that she's bound to the pact as well. Otherwise it doesn't apply to her in the same way that Pelleas' pact must say "current citizens that serve Daein" or something ridiculous otherwise there's no way he could know Jill and Zihark would be safe from its effects.

I know it seems like I'm just being contrarian and difficult, but these are honestly the reasons I hate the blood pact. There's too much guessing and too many contradictions to make any real logical and consistent rules or sense out of it.

[Acacia Sgt]

To be fair, we never see what does Kilvas's document entails in detail. The Begnion thing is a possible explanation as to why Sanaki can overrule the Senators' orders, since as Empress she outranks them, and that Lekain only ever refers to their side of the pact as "the empire". Also, the contents of the pact are just that, words. The curse is that the activation triggers checks if they are being followed. Sanaki doesn't need the document to order Naesala around, but Naesala obeying her seems to satisfy the pact's terms so that the curse can't be triggered by Lekain since Naesala is obeying the pact. It could be possible that had Naesala disobeyed Sanaki, then the curse could be activated. Well, assuming that starting it is reactive. Stopping it does seem to need action, as Lekain did state the empire took their time to stop it even when Kilvas's former King had stopped disobeying them.

And most likely, it's likely it's not worded as simply "Begnion" since, as you mention, it would be too broad. Probably "Begnion's government" or something like that.

Hmm, you bring an interesting point with the mention of Apostle. Sanaki may not be the Apostle... but the rank itself... does it outranks the Empress? Had Micaiah knew beforehand... could she have been able to boss Daein around without fear of the Pact due to having the right of one of Begnion's highest, if not the highest, ranks? Had Lekain actually tried... would it have failed? The Apostle would be certainly higher than the Senators... but well, that's just simply a What-If since no one knew or suspected of it until... when exactly did they found out anyway? I know the ending mentions it they've figured it out, but not the exact when it happened.

Only thing to mitigate it is that Lekain most likely had Daein's pact worded so it could only apply to the Senate, or heck, just himself. But still...

Regarding the PoR thing, well, there is a difference between "not helping our enemy" and "helping us out against our enemy". After Ch19 it seems Kilvas just dropped out of the war so it was moot dealing with them when they still had to focus on Daein, with the Ch28 and Endgame things being just Naesala acting on his own.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Acacia Sgt

[Alazen]

I'll point out that in light of what RD shows about the Blood Pact it's dubious that none of the Senators tried to get Elincia to sign a Blood Pact when she and the Greil Mercenaries where hanging out at Begion.

[MCProductions]

I'll point out that in light of what RD shows about the Blood Pact it's dubious that none of the Senators tried to get Elincia to sign a Blood Pact when she and the Greil Mercenaries where hanging out at Begion.

Wow, I never noticed that, and this is especially odd since the Senate being corrupt is a plot point of POR, so why didn't they, beyond the devs hadn't thought of it yet?

[Mangs]

At the end of the day, we all know why the blood pact was brought into the story. It wasn't because it was a "cool concept", but because the writers needed a reason for Micaiah to fight Ike, because they were really horny on the whole "player vs player" combat thing. The entire thing was just lazy writing, nothing more.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Mangs

[Busterman64]

The Blood pact was the only thing that made the war happen in the first place. Without it, there wouldn't be one since:

1.)No matter how racist Daein is against the Laguz, not everyone would want to fight again after losing a war, being under the foot of Begnion for 3 years, AND just after revolution.

2.)Both Pelleas and Micaiah would be against it and seeing how high Daein sees those two (especially Micaiah), it would be hard to just tell them "No".

In my opinion, the Blood pact was a good idea on paper(and seemed quite effective as well) and was an interesting plot point, but it got messy when it came to execution and establishing certain rules. If it was more simplified (maybe) and had a better reason or more backstory to it (like everything else in the Tellius games), it wouldn't be so glaring. That and the Ashnard thing. It messes up what was established in PoR for Ashnard(besides, murdering the family outright sounds more like Ashnard than him cursing them, especially since in a Base conversation in PoR, Tanith tells you he's one of the best warriors in Daein. It doesn't sound right and makes Ashnard less menacing). I guess IS needed more backstory to make it more relevant, but it backfires.

I'm pretty sure they could have either fine tuned this idea more or thought of something else (because considering how jerkish the Begnion Senators are, there are more possible ways like......threaten to act as Daein is part of the Laguz Alliance and wipe them out with full force if they wouldn't comply. They probably wouldn't since that's time and resources wasted, but Pelleas wouldn't probably think about that and seeing how Daein is recovering and it's pretty small compared to Daein AND the the Apostle being "sick" at the time, the Senators had almost all control over the army. It would be a very impressive bluff. Probably not a great idea, but it's an idea I had). Maybe working on the game more in-general would have helped(we could've had a really solid story and ACTUAL support conversations......sorry, still salty about that), who knows.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, RD is still a great game, but this kinda holds it back a bit from being even better.

Also, I dislike how Micaiah didn't really question this...or Pelleas for a good while until she got exhausted and Sothe had to threaten Pelleas about leaving with her before the beans were spilled. I know he's a good person and all (and building tension and and all that jazz), but it kinda seems quite questionable when considered (although, all the other characters in your army question it). At least Sothe was the voice of reason (and sense...mostly).

Edited March 6, 2016 by Busterman64

[Alazen]

They didn't need the Blood Pact to go war. They didn't even need it to get Ike and Micaiah's armies fight. Here's a scenario:

1. The Crimea Civil War doesn't happen while Ludveck is still around for Crimea to have internal conflict.

2. News reaches Crimea of Jarod's army's defeat and crowning of Ashnard's son Pelleas. This gets a backlash among the citizenry who remember Daein's invasion and occupation.

3. Seeing an opportunity to seek glory, Ludveck proposes an invasion of Daein. This is contested by others in Crimean government until it's pointed out how loud the calls for revenge are in Crimea. Elincia relents and orders to prepare for war.

4. It's agreed to hire the Greil Mercenaries for their performance in the Mad King's War.

5. The invasion is noticed in Daein, making Micaiah's army go on the defense.

5. The Laguz Alliance's war on Begnion proceeds without the Greil Mercenaries with Skrimir as the Lord.

6. The player armies fight their enemies until Ashera awakens.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Alazen

[MCProductions]

They didn't need the Blood Pact to go war. They didn't even need it to get Ike and Micaiah's armies fight. Here's a scenario:

1. The Crimea Civil War doesn't happen while Ludveck is still around for Crimea to have internal conflict.

2. News reaches Crimea of Jarod's army's defeat and crowning of Ashnard's son Pelleas. This gets a backlash among the citizenry who remember Daein's invasion and occupation.

3. Seeing an opportunity to seek glory, Ludveck proposes an invasion of Daein. This is contested by others in Crimean government until it's pointed out how loud the calls for revenge are in Crimea. Elincia relents and orders to prepare for war.

4. It's agreed to hire the Greil Mercenaries for their performance in the Mad King's War.

5. The invasion is noticed in Daein, making Micaiah's army go on the defense.

5. The Laguz Alliance's war on Begnion proceeds without the Greil Mercenaries with Skrimir as the Lord.

6. The player armies fight their enemies until Ashera awakens.

Or heck, just nix Part's 1 and 2 altogether, and have Begnion force the occupied Daein citizens to fight for them, which allows the conflict to actually build up in the space part 1 and 2 leave behind instead of just sorta starting with very little context in part 3, allows Ike to fight Micaiah, and makes the narrative actually consistant.

[bottlegnomes]

But, Alazen, then all the MCs wouldn't be pristine little angels because Elincia would've given into THE BAD PEOPLE!

[Lord Raven]

If you want more answers, we talked about it here too.

[Seanp12]

The Blood Pact suffers from the same problems that Conquest's

Valla curse

does. It's very obviously a plot device used to turn the heroes against each other and to make a good person do horrible things with some kind of justification. The problem is that neither situation is very well thought out, and ignores many logical loopholes. I think RD does it a little better than Conquest, since Blood Pacts are explained a little better, but they still fall short.

[random medallion]

Instead of a blood pact, Ike or Micaiah could have been possessed by an evil spirit (like say, Izuka) who turns them against each other which would have sounded a lot less ridiculous in concept.