In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Even if both base routes to be rewritten, given what IS did with the current versions in relation to each other, I bet there would still be rampant advertising of the other route within a given route. They'd find something (or several things) to leave the context out of in order to make the player want to play both routes. One example they could even still get stuck in a revision is the food shortage. It gets zero mention in Conquest, so Nohr appears to be just attacking Hoshido for the sake of it. It takes until near the end of Birthright for the game to even bother giving it any context.

[saisymbolic]

Even if both base routes to be rewritten, given what IS did with the current versions in relation to each other, I bet there would still be rampant advertising of the other route within a given route. They'd find something (or several things) to leave the context out of in order to make the player want to play both routes. One example they could even still get stuck in a revision is the food shortage. It gets zero mention in Conquest, so Nohr appears to be just attacking Hoshido for the sake of it. It takes until near the end of Birthright for the game to even bother giving it any context.

LOL. That part made me laugh when I played through it.

But, yeah, I do get what you mean and I agree. There has to be some incentive for consumers to want to get the route they didn't buy; they would have found something to leave out even if Revelation did not exist.

The food shortage scenario was a really good foundation for them to go on for a means for invasion. I wonder why they scrapped it but still threw in a mention of it.

[Tolvir]

The premise was good and you could see good ideas buried under the surface; Takumi's character arc and pre goo Garon could have been interesting. Unfortunately, two things fundamentally went wrong: first was making Corrin the focus of the story rather than having him play more of a Robin role to Xander or Ryoma's Chrom, and second was the existence of a third route. While it means a third game, it also means that the central theme of the game is fucked into the ground because you now have a way where you can save everyone, and that is not how conflicts like these work. Fix those issues and you can work from there to fix the story. I may actually write up a brief summary of what I think Conquest's story should have been.

Basically one big problem with it is that, while Nohr has its fair share of internal politics, basically everyone in Hoshido loves the Royal Family and is committed to fighting Nohr. Lets contrast this with Radiant Historia, which is shaping up to be an amazing story. I'm five hours in to that game, and both sides are already extremely nuanced, and with just two nations. On the "evil" Empire side you have this Queen who does nothing, but then her two generals run the show behind the scenes and are shown to be generally competent people, and nothing has suggested that they're evil. In the "good" country, meanwhile, its pretty obvious that the church that rues the nation is now hugely corrupt, and the leader is just a puppet. There are good people and bad people in each country, and the conflict doesn't happen because one nation wants more land, it happens because they need to fight. It isn't that one country has its token Camus, either. I'm not saying the bad guy country shouldn't be blatantly pure evil; Path of Radiance pulled that off fine, by giving Daein motivations beyond "well the King is possessed". No one goes to war just to conquer, and thats basically why Nohr went to war here.

I agree with a lot of what you said here. Something I have thought about in regards to Revelation is that it was done the wrong way. They wanted a way of getting all the characters in one route for someone that didnt want to have to choose between the two. If it was something they REALLY wanted to do in terms of a story, then there was a much better way to go about it.

They should of made Revelations an End Game DLC. Something like this. You played through Conquest, defeated possessed Takumi, etc, etc. You can now buy Revelation as an expansion, not another path. What it does from here is establish what is going on a few years from Conquest or Birthright, whichever you chose. Start integrating the whole Anankos thing, and him returning, and lead to the idea that this is a situation where the player and all the characters need to "gear up" again for one last fight, including the remaining heroes of the opposite faction, so in your case, the remaining characters of Birthright that are not dead. It would of given an amazing, epic final battle feel to it, and would of given some "end-game" options for players, like allowing grinding for Conquest once you complete the final map of Conquest. They could of even added Children into this, instead of the main game, given they give a long enough timeskip. No more outrealm babies, instead you just age up the first gen a bit, and add in the second gen.

But overall, Revelation really shouldn't of existed, this is just my idea that if it had to exist, this might of been a better option.

[Azure Sen]

The premise was good and you could see good ideas buried under the surface; Takumi's character arc and pre goo Garon could have been interesting. Unfortunately, two things fundamentally went wrong: first was making Corrin the focus of the story rather than having him play more of a Robin role to Xander or Ryoma's Chrom, and second was the existence of a third route. While it means a third game, it also means that the central theme of the game is fucked into the ground because you now have a way where you can save everyone, and that is not how conflicts like these work. Fix those issues and you can work from there to fix the story. I may actually write up a brief summary of what I think Conquest's story should have been.

I don't think that there is anything inherently wrong with the existence of a third route that has a happier ending than the other two. Heck, MegaTen games practically thrive on that. Like anything in writing, it's all in the execution, and IntSys executed it poorly by laying it on far too thick that Revelation was the correct choice.

It works for MegaTen, for example, because Law and Chaos are exercises in extremism that end well for almost no one, MegaTen's not afraid to kill people off even in the Neutral route (including forcing you to do it), and the Neutral routes are almost always require the most work to get. In contrast, Revelation basically has a big flashing sign that says "BEST ROUTE HERE," all of the deaths on Revelation are either for meaningless shock value or inconsequential in the long run, both Birthright and to a lesser extent Conquest don't carry the same extremism, and Corrin hardly struggles at all on Revelation.

Lets contrast this with Radiant Historia, which is shaping up to be an amazing story. I'm five hours in to that game, and both sides are already extremely nuanced, and with just two nations. On the "evil" Empire side you have this Queen who does nothing, but then her two generals run the show behind the scenes and are shown to be generally competent people, and nothing has suggested that they're evil. In the "good" country, meanwhile, its pretty obvious that the church that rues the nation is now hugely corrupt, and the leader is just a puppet. There are good people and bad people in each country, and the conflict doesn't happen because one nation wants more land, it happens because they need to fight. It isn't that one country has its token Camus, either. I'm not saying the bad guy country shouldn't be blatantly pure evil; Path of Radiance pulled that off fine, by giving Daein motivations beyond "well the King is possessed".

There's no way I can talk about this in-depth without spoiling stuff about Radiant Historia's plot, so I'm just going to say that what you're saying isn't quite the case, and that the comparison between Fates and RH doesn't quite work. (And even then, that might be saying too much.)

Edited May 6, 2016 by AzureSen

[Water Mage]

The premise was good and you could see good ideas buried under the surface; Takumi's character arc and pre goo Garon could have been interesting. Unfortunately, two things fundamentally went wrong: first was making Corrin the focus of the story rather than having him play more of a Robin role to Xander or Ryoma's Chrom, and second was the existence of a third route. While it means a third game, it also means that the central theme of the game is fucked into the ground because you now have a way where you can save everyone, and that is not how conflicts like these work. Fix those issues and you can work from there to fix the story. I may actually write up a brief summary of what I think Conquest's story should have been.

Basically one big problem with it is that, while Nohr has its fair share of internal politics, basically everyone in Hoshido loves the Royal Family and is committed to fighting Nohr. Lets contrast this with Radiant Historia, which is shaping up to be an amazing story. I'm five hours in to that game, and both sides are already extremely nuanced, and with just two nations. On the "evil" Empire side you have this Queen who does nothing, but then her two generals run the show behind the scenes and are shown to be generally competent people, and nothing has suggested that they're evil. In the "good" country, meanwhile, its pretty obvious that the church that rues the nation is now hugely corrupt, and the leader is just a puppet. There are good people and bad people in each country, and the conflict doesn't happen because one nation wants more land, it happens because they need to fight. It isn't that one country has its token Camus, either. I'm not saying the bad guy country shouldn't be blatantly pure evil; Path of Radiance pulled that off fine, by giving Daein motivations beyond "well the King is possessed". No one goes to war just to conquer, and thats basically why Nohr went to war here.

I see what you mean, and I agree, the third path makes the choice between countries much less...tragic or intense, since there's an "easy way out".

Choices like the one on Chapter 6 are only truly effective when there is no easy way, there's no middle path, it's one or the other.

It's the lack of a third option that makes these "make your choice" moments so intense after all.

[NekoKnight]

I don't think that there is anything inherently wrong with the existence of a third route that has a happier ending than the other two. Heck, MegaTen games practically thrive on that. Like anything in writing, it's all in the execution, and IntSys executed it poorly by laying it on far too thick that Revelation was the correct choice.

It works for MegaTen, for example, because Law and Chaos are exercises in extremism that end well for almost no one, MegaTen's not afraid to kill people off even in the Neutral route (including forcing you to do it), and the Neutral routes are almost always require the most work to get. In contrast, Revelation basically has a big flashing sign that says "BEST ROUTE HERE," all of the deaths on Revelation are either for meaningless shock value or inconsequential in the long run, both Birthright and to a lesser extent Conquest don't carry the same extremism, and Corrin hardly struggles at all on Revelation.

Does MegaTen make you pay extra for its neutral routes? If not, there is another strike against IS for their execution of the third route. It's one thing to have a comparatively happy ending, but quite another to lock that ending (and a lot of the most critical plot details) behind a paywall.

If I were (forced) to include a 3rd route, I'd make the stakes just as high as the first two. There isn't really a reason why you had to be able to recruit almost everyone in Revelation. Even if you kept all of the sibling characters alive, you could kill off more the supporting cast to make it clear that there is no perfect ending. If I got my numbers right,

[spoiler=death counts]

7 characters die in Birthright, 9 in Conquest and only 2 characters in Revelation.

The important thing for any multiple route game is that choices have consequences, good and bad.

[Jedi]

Does MegaTen make you pay extra for its neutral routes? If not, there is another strike against IS for their execution of the third route. It's one thing to have a comparatively happy ending, but quite another to lock that ending (and a lot of the most critical plot details) behind a paywall.

Nah but MegaTen's choices only really matter at the end game where it then branches, Fates has 3 entirely different games. its quite a difference actually.

[NekoKnight]

Nah but MegaTen's choices only really matter at the end game where it then branches, Fates has 3 entirely different games. its quite a difference actually.

I don't object to the routes being sold separately when they have as much unique content as Fates does. What I do object to is the greater story only being told in a route that isn't sold separately from the other routes. IS actually did this twice, with Revelation and then Hidden Truths.

I won't fault a company for trying to make money but their money grabbing scheme really sunk the story.

[Azure Sen]

Does MegaTen make you pay extra for its neutral routes? If not, there is another strike against IS for their execution of the third route. It's one thing to have a comparatively happy ending, but quite another to lock that ending (and a lot of the most critical plot details) behind a paywall.

Yeah, admittedly that's a strike against IntSys too, but I was mostly approaching the issue from a writing standpoint.

IntSys has taken to DLC way too well, I agree, and their paywalling is much more outrageous when you compare it to other Nintendo products like SSB4, where paying for DLC would get you actually unique characters (including the return of a bunch of fan-favorites) and new stages to use, and Hyrule Warriors, which has been getting amazing new content out the wazoo with its DLC, a good part of which has been free. Meanwhile, at least one major chunk of story (that answered a question no one cared about, but still) is locked behind a paywall, as is Revelation.

If I were (forced) to include a 3rd route, I'd make the stakes just as high as the first two. There isn't really a reason why you had to be able to recruit almost everyone in Revelation. Even if you kept all of the sibling characters alive, you could kill off more the supporting cast to make it clear that there is no perfect ending. If I got my numbers right,

[spoiler=death counts]

7 characters die in Birthright, 9 in Conquest and only 2 characters in Revelation.

Honestly, if I was going to do a MegaTen-style third route, I'd at least kill off one royal from each side, in exchange for being able to recruit most everyone else. Probably Ryoma and Xander, since they're the most visible representatives from each nations. Plus I kind of like all of the other siblings better than their respective elder siblings.

Are we talking playable characters or just characters in general?

[Jedi]

I don't object to the routes being sold separately when they have as much unique content as Fates does. What I do object to is the greater story only being told in a route that isn't sold separately from the other routes. IS actually did this twice, with Revelation and then Hidden Truths.

I won't fault a company for trying to make money but their money grabbing scheme really sunk the story.

I do see the complaint there, I'm actually not really a fan of revelations at all, even in terms of gameplay I find it weaker than both BR & CQ by a significant margin and the fact that its just... ehh, and its supposed to be the "true" route, kinda irks me entirely.

Especially considering what it does to both Scarlet and Gunther

.

Heck the only thing I like Revelations for is the goofy pairings I can pull off and some hilarious things like my 90% Strength Growth Kagero thanks to S ranking with Arthur and becoming a Zerker, (Although I could do this in BR as well with a Corrin who had Fighter I suppose)

I agree it weakened the story alot, I guess the sales numbers tell them this worked overall though, I actually wonder how the Japanese crowd took the story overall?

Edited May 6, 2016 by Jedi

[Dark Sage]

Yeah, admittedly that's a strike against IntSys too, but I was mostly approaching the issue from a writing standpoint.

IntSys has taken to DLC way too well, I agree, and their paywalling is much more outrageous when you compare it to other Nintendo products like SSB4, where paying for DLC would get you actually unique characters (including the return of a bunch of fan-favorites) and new stages to use, and Hyrule Warriors, which has been getting amazing new content out the wazoo with its DLC, a good part of which has been free. Meanwhile, at least one major chunk of story (that answered a question no one cared about, but still) is locked behind a paywall, as is Revelation.

Honestly, if I was going to do a MegaTen-style third route, I'd at least kill off one royal from each side, in exchange for being able to recruit most everyone else. Probably Ryoma and Xander, since they're the most visible representatives from each nations. Plus I kind of like all of the other siblings better than their respective elder siblings.

Are we talking playable characters or just characters in general?

Personally I would've preferred it if instead of a third route, there was a branching off point for each route, kind of like a more neutral aligned branch for each side. You could get certain characters from the other side, but not all of them and you might lose some characters on your side that you otherwise would've gotten. I remember when the game was advertised about choices mattering, this idea would be what would happen but nope.

I do see the complaint there, I'm actually not really a fan of revelations at all, even in terms of gameplay I find it weaker than both BR & CQ by a significant margin and the fact that its just... ehh, and its supposed to be the "true" route, kinda irks me entirely.

Especially considering what it does to both Scarlet and Gunther

.

Heck the only thing I like Revelations for is the goofy pairings I can pull off and some hilarious things like my 90% Strength Growth Kagero thanks to S ranking with Arthur and becoming a Zerker, (Although I could do this in BR as well with a Corrin who had Fighter I suppose)

I agree it weakened the story alot, I guess the sales numbers tell them this worked overall though, I actually wonder how the Japanese crowd took the story overall?

The Japanese aren't big fans of the story either and some of the complaints about it and the game in general actually mirror the west's reactions iirc. I don't speak japanese though and there aren't many people in the community who keep an active pulse on the Japanese fanbase's discourse though. They did refer to the Awakening trio as "The Three Idiots" when the Hidden Truths DLC first came out, which should tell you something.

[NekoKnight]

Yeah, admittedly that's a strike against IntSys too, but I was mostly approaching the issue from a writing standpoint.

IntSys has taken to DLC way too well, I agree, and their paywalling is much more outrageous when you compare it to other Nintendo products like SSB4, where paying for DLC would get you actually unique characters (including the return of a bunch of fan-favorites) and new stages to use, and Hyrule Warriors, which has been getting amazing new content out the wazoo with its DLC, a good part of which has been free. Meanwhile, at least one major chunk of story (that answered a question no one cared about, but still) is locked behind a paywall, as is Revelation.

Honestly, if I was going to do a MegaTen-style third route, I'd at least kill off one royal from each side, in exchange for being able to recruit most everyone else. Probably Ryoma and Xander, since they're the most visible representatives from each nations. Plus I kind of like all of the other siblings better than their respective elder siblings.

Are we talking playable characters or just characters in general?

I was talking about playable characters plus Lilith. There are also some optional deaths (Suzukaze and Ashura) but I didn't count them because it seems implied you wouldn't let them die.

I kind of like the idea of the elder brothers dying off because that would create a bigger need for Corrin's leadership and make the conflict feel more desperate. I'd probably just keep the rest of the siblings, their retainers and a few other supporting characters like the shapeshifters. The cast is really bloated.

I do see the complaint there, I'm actually not really a fan of revelations at all, even in terms of gameplay I find it weaker than both BR & CQ by a significant margin and the fact that its just... ehh, and its supposed to be the "true" route, kinda irks me entirely.

Especially considering what it does to both Scarlet and Gunther

.

Heck the only thing I like Revelations for is the goofy pairings I can pull off and some hilarious things like my 90% Strength Growth Kagero thanks to S ranking with Arthur and becoming a Zerker, (Although I could do this in BR as well with a Corrin who had Fighter I suppose)

I agree it weakened the story alot, I guess the sales numbers tell them this worked overall though, I actually wonder how the Japanese crowd took the story overall?

I heard a lot of people talking about how Revelation was the definitive story and the 'best' route but I found the story incredibly bland and bare bones. Revelation answers questions you didn't care about and provides a villain you didn't ask for. It is fun for flexible team building, however.

[SalShich10N]

Nah but MegaTen's choices only really matter at the end game where it then branches, Fates has 3 entirely different games. its quite a difference actually.

I still don't feel the "3 different games" thing. There is very little actually exclusive, since you can even use online to recruit units not on your version, plus a good chunk of the paralogues are the same. It's a clever re-using of the same assets. You can even argue it's done to bloat game sales on charts and meetings since all three are sold as different "games" but they all count towards "Fire Emblem: Fates".

I'd say only Conquest is worth paying 40 dollars for.

[NekoKnight]

I still don't feel the "3 different games" thing. There is very little actually exclusive, since you can even use online to recruit units not on your version, plus a good chunk of the paralogues are the same. It's a clever re-using of the same assets. You can even argue it's done to bloat game sales on charts and meetings since all three are sold as different "games" but they all count towards "Fire Emblem: Fates".

I'd say only Conquest is worth paying 40 dollars for.

I'd say they are worth the price if you get the discount. $40 the base game and $20 for the unique maps and supports on the other routes. Overall, I'd describe the pricing model as fair.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I heard a lot of people talking about how Revelation was the definitive story and the 'best' route but I found the story incredibly bland and bare bones. Revelation answers questions you didn't care about and provides a villain you didn't ask for.

I disagree about the villain; Birthright and Conquest both make it clear there's some force behind the evil you see, and if Revelation hadn't existed for you to deal with it, it would have been in a sequel instead (much like "the dark god" featured in Radiant Dawn... kinda!). I'm okay, in principle at least, with possessed Garon and Takumi as final bosses but they shouldn't be the final opponent in the narrative.

But I agree otherwise, Revelation is a bland and boring story. If that's what the fanbase actually "wants" then all I can do is shake my head in disappointment. I get the appeal of being able to use the full huge cast of characters but it feels comparable to the appeal of a crossover game like Smash Bros., and I think the route is actually the worst of the three otherwise plotwise, just because it has almost nothing interesting to say.

(Of course I similarly think that, say, FE11-12 are worse than Fates for plot due to having nothing interesting to say, so I dunno.)

On the "evil" Empire side you have this Queen who does nothing, but then her two generals run the show behind the scenes and are shown to be generally competent people, and nothing has suggested that they're evil

Oh you poor bastard.

(But yeah RH does have a pretty good plot. It just isn't due to anyone involved in the current Granorg leadership.)

[SalShich10N]

I'd say they are worth the price if you get the discount. $40 the base game and $20 for the unique maps and supports on the other routes. Overall, I'd describe the pricing model as fair.

It's fair, it just doesn't feels right. I feel the whole thing is worth 60 dollars not 80. And that's not counting the further 26 dollars of DLC. Then there is the Amiibo junk. I mean, not even Capcom does this anymore. At least Custom Firmware is a thing now~

[NekoKnight]

I disagree about the villain; Birthright and Conquest both make it clear there's some force behind the evil you see, and if Revelation hadn't existed for you to deal with it, it would have been in a sequel instead (much like "the dark god" featured in Radiant Dawn... kinda!). I'm okay, in principle at least, with possessed Garon and Takumi as final bosses but they shouldn't be the final opponent in the narrative.

But I agree otherwise, Revelation is a bland and boring story. If that's what the fanbase actually "wants" then all I can do is shake my head in disappointment. I get the appeal of being able to use the full huge cast of characters but it feels comparable to the appeal of a crossover game like Smash Bros., and I think the route is actually the worst of the three otherwise plotwise, just because it has almost nothing interesting to say.

[spoiler=Revelation Villain]

When I said "the villain no one asked for", I didn't mean know one wanted to know about them, just that they weren't anymore interesting than the main antagonists of the first two routes. One would think that the greater scope villain might make the conflict more interesting but it's just another omnicidal dragon-god.

[Time the Crestfallen]

[spoiler=Revelation Villain]

When I said "the villain no one asked for", I didn't mean know one wanted to know about them, just that they weren't anymore interesting than the main antagonists of the first two routes. One would think that the greater scope villain might make the conflict more interesting but it's just another omnicidal dragon-god.

For the sake of fairness though, I'd say that Anankos has a leg up on pretty much every other supernatural bigger bad we get. Grima and Fomortiis are dicks for no explained reason, Loptyr is just kinda there and the Fire Dragon could've been replaced with anything. Ashera is okay and I don't know enough about Duma or Medeus to make any comments on them, but Medeus seems like he'd fit into the 'dick for minuscule/poorly-explained reasons' category.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Phillius

[Azure Sen]

For the sake of fairness though, I'd say that Anankos has a leg up on pretty much every other supernatural bigger bad we get. Grima and Fomortiis are dicks for no explained reason, Loptyr is just kinda there and the Fire Dragon could've been replaced with anything. Ashera is okay and I don't know enough about Duma or Medeus to make any comments on them, but Medeus seems like he'd fit into the 'dick for poorly/poorly-explained reasons' category.

Loptyr actually aided Galle in the establishment of his empire and most of the horrible stuff in Genealogy's second gen is him using Juilus as a meat puppet, so he's still better than most. Duma is kind of meh and what little plot Gaiden has is monumentally stupid anyway, but Medeus does have a backstory. He's the only Earth Dragon that didn't go crazy after their war with humanity and the Divine Dragons and was the guardian of the sealed-away Earth Dragons at Naga's command. Humanity's terrible treatment of dragons lead him to rally some dragons and some less than stellar humans and enslaved humanity under the banner of the Dolhr empire, but he was beaten and killed by Anri.

[NekoKnight]

For the sake of fairness though, I'd say that Anankos has a leg up on pretty much every other supernatural bigger bad we get. Grima and Fomortiis are dicks for no explained reason, Loptyr is just kinda there and the Fire Dragon could've been replaced with anything. Ashera is okay and I don't know enough about Duma or Medeus to make any comments on them, but Medeus seems like he'd fit into the 'dick for minuscule/poorly-explained reasons' category.

I'd leave the Fire Dragon and Ashera off the list. They are the final bosses of their respective game but they aren't really the main antagonists. The Fire Dragon was summoned by Nergal, who orchestrated all o the events in the story. While Ashera has a will of her own, she represents a absolute concept of Order that Sephiran used to further his goals of ending the world (and his reasons are more nuanced than most villains).

[Time the Crestfallen]

Loptyr actually aided Galle in the establishment of his empire and most of the horrible stuff in Genealogy's second gen is him using Juilus as a meat puppet, so he's still better than most. Duma is kind of meh and what little plot Gaiden has is monumentally stupid anyway, but Medeus does have a backstory. He's the only Earth Dragon that didn't go crazy after their war with humanity and the Divine Dragons and was the guardian of the sealed-away Earth Dragons at Naga's command. Humanity's terrible treatment of dragons lead him to rally some dragons and some less than stellar humans and enslaved humanity under the banner of the Dolhr empire, but he was beaten and killed by Anri.

Wasn't the degree to which Loptyr possessed Julius/Galle kinda ambiguous? I was under the impression that he was influencing them, but otherwise they were still in control. Thanks for filling me in on Medeus though. Only Akaenia game I've played recently was 12, and that was mostly to see if Kris was as bad as everyone said he was.

I'd leave the Fire Dragon and Ashera off the list. They are the final bosses of their respective game but they aren't really the main antagonists. The Fire Dragon was summoned by Nergal, who orchestrated all o the events in the story. While Ashera has a will of her own, she represents a absolute concept of Order that Sephiran used to further his goals of ending the world (and his reasons are more nuanced than most villains).

I know about the Fire Dragon, and my point was that you could've replaced it with the flying spaghetti monster and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference, especially when you were mentioning Anankos as 'yet another omnicidal dragon' when the 'only' dragons we've had are Medeus (who isn't as bad as I thought he was), Loptyr (who between Arvis, Manfroy and Julius is just kinda there), Idenn (I've played Binding Blade four times and I still don't really get what her deal was. Is she insane?), the Fire Dragon (again, could've been replaced with anything and it was all Nergal's doing anyway) and Grima (lol). Otherwise, we've also had a Demon, an Incarnation of Order, Veld, Ashnard, Julius and...whatever the hell Duma is meant to be. Oh, and I guess Gerxel counts since TearRing Saga is Fire Emblem in all but name, but otherwise we have 5 Dragon Final Bosses (6 if you count Gerxel), 3 miscellaneous supernatural critters and 3 humans and when it comes to the dragons/otherwise supernaturals, I'd consider Anankos to be one of the better ones (even if most of his backstory is locked behind a paywall.

[Jedi]

The Japanese aren't big fans of the story either and some of the complaints about it and the game in general actually mirror the west's reactions iirc. I don't speak japanese though and there aren't many people in the community who keep an active pulse on the Japanese fanbase's discourse though. They did refer to the Awakening trio as "The Three Idiots" when the Hidden Truths DLC first came out, which should tell you something.

Ah alright, thanks for the information you do know ^^.

I heard a lot of people talking about how Revelation was the definitive story and the 'best' route but I found the story incredibly bland and bare bones. Revelation answers questions you didn't care about and provides a villain you didn't ask for. It is fun for flexible team building, however.

Hmm really? Most of the people I talk to who play FE on skype, such as General Horace, found it overly lackluster in pretty much every department compared to the other two routes. Most notably gameplay.

I still don't feel the "3 different games" thing. There is very little actually exclusive, since you can even use online to recruit units not on your version, plus a good chunk of the paralogues are the same. It's a clever re-using of the same assets. You can even argue it's done to bloat game sales on charts and meetings since all three are sold as different "games" but they all count towards "Fire Emblem: Fates".

I'd say only Conquest is worth paying 40 dollars for.

I guess its a really weird thing, like I think theres enough to justify the multiple purchases at the same time... eh... Its hard for me to say really.

[NekoKnight]

Wasn't the degree to which Loptyr possessed Julius/Galle kinda ambiguous? I was under the impression that he was influencing them, but otherwise they were still in control. Thanks for filling me in on Medeus though. Only Akaenia game I've played recently was 12, and that was mostly to see if Kris was as bad as everyone said he was.

I know about the Fire Dragon, and my point was that you could've replaced it with the flying spaghetti monster and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference, especially when you were mentioning Anankos as 'yet another omnicidal dragon' when the 'only' dragons we've had are Medeus (who isn't as bad as I thought he was), Loptyr (who between Arvis, Manfroy and Julius is just kinda there), Idenn (I've played Binding Blade four times and I still don't really get what her deal was. Is she insane?), the Fire Dragon (again, could've been replaced with anything and it was all Nergal's doing anyway) and Grima (lol). Otherwise, we've also had a Demon, an Incarnation of Order, Veld, Ashnard, Julius and...whatever the hell Duma is meant to be. Oh, and I guess Gerxel counts since TearRing Saga is Fire Emblem in all but name, but otherwise we have 5 Dragon Final Bosses (6 if you count Gerxel), 3 miscellaneous supernatural critters and 3 humans and when it comes to the dragons/otherwise supernaturals, I'd consider Anankos to be one of the better ones (even if most of his backstory is locked behind a paywall.

I didn't make the claim that we've had a lot of omnicidal dragons, just that we had another one, right after Grima. Him being a dragon isn't relevant to what I'm saying anyway. I'm saying he was a boring antagonist who's motives are not even explained in detail in the main game. When his backstory boils down to "He went crazy and decided to kill everyone." It's only slightly better than no explanation at all.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I didn't make the claim that we've had a lot of omnicidal dragons, just that we had another one, right after Grima. Him being a dragon isn't relevant to what I'm saying anyway. I'm saying he was a boring antagonist who's motives are not even explained in detail in the main game. When his backstory boils down to "He went crazy and decided to kill everyone." It's only slightly better than no explanation at all.

Ah, my bad. Regardless, I stand by what I said about Anankos being better than most other supernatural antagonists we get. Even if his backstory boils down to 'he cray-cray', it's a step above Loptyr, Fomortiis and Grima who don't even have a backstory. Where Fates fails in the antagonist department is with good human antagonists; Genealogy had Manfroy and Arvis, Binding Blade had Zephiel, Blazing Sword had Nergal, Sacred Stones had Lyon and Tellius had the Black Knight. Awakening wastes it's good villains (Gangrel and Walhart) and Fates doesn't even have a decent human antagonist. I don't see anything wrong with characters like Anankos, but when there isn't any good human antagonist to drive the story, that's when you start to get problems.

[Thane]

Ah, my bad. Regardless, I stand by what I said about Anankos being better than most other supernatural antagonists we get. Even if his backstory boils down to 'he cray-cray', it's a step above Loptyr, Fomortiis and Grima who don't even have a backstory. Where Fates fails in the antagonist department is with good human antagonists; Genealogy had Manfroy and Arvis, Binding Blade had Zephiel, Blazing Sword had Nergal, Sacred Stones had Lyon and Tellius had the Black Knight. Awakening wastes it's good villains (Gangrel and Walhart) and Fates doesn't even have a decent human antagonist. I don't see anything wrong with characters like Anankos, but when there isn't any good human antagonist to drive the story, that's when you start to get problems.

[spoiler=Revelation villain]I must disagree. First of all, a character like Anankos should never have been considered given the premise of the story; a guy like that has no place in what was supposed to be a character-driven story, or at least it would be hard to pull off well

However, even if that weren't the case, and we only look at Anankos as a character, I'd say he's still worse than even the other supernatural characters. Don't get me wrong, I hold no real love for Grima or Fomortiis (Lyon is another story though), and while their lack of background makes them bland as all get out, at least you don't have to do mental gymnastics to try and understand them. With Anankos we have to ask ourselves why he didn't just kill himself before he got crazy, how he split in two and why, why his good part is affected by the plot curse, and then there's the whole Corrin and Lilith business. It's just a mess. The more you think about him the less sense he makes, and not in that good, mysterious way they were going for.

Also, Nergal fucking sucks.