Revelations has Serious Pacing Issues (Spoilers)

[Jakkun]

Doesn't Ryouma and Xander excuse Corrin's behavior in the end anyway? I couldn't believe what I was seeing when that little brat showed up - oh hey, an obvious trap, let's follow it! Screw exploring the mystical kingdom on our own, we have our own personal, obviously evil guide here!

It's almost like Gunter all over again; "gee, I wonder who's the traitor. Maybe, just maybe, it's the guy who for some reason can't support in this route and suddenly got a lot more lines after this little subplot became important."

Yes, they tell him something along the lines of "if you weren't able to trust everyone, we wouldn't be here with you now." You had one job Xander.

A fun little meta joke my friends and I have is to instantly call out a character as being obviously evil if they are voiced by D.C Douglas. And with Gunther's line of literally saying "It would be a shame if someone were to betray you right before your final battle" literally after the Rontau incident, yeh nice plot we got here.

[Sentinel07]

Yes, they tell him something along the lines of "if you weren't able to trust everyone, we wouldn't be here with you now." You had one job Xander.

A fun little meta joke my friends and I have is to instantly call out a character as being obviously evil if they are voiced by D.C Douglas. And with Gunther's line of literally saying "It would be a shame if someone were to betray you right before your final battle" literally after the Rontau incident, yeh nice plot we got here.

That's whats so utterly stupid about Xander and Ryoma's behavior towards Corrin. They don't allow him to learn from his mistakes, even after the Anthony situation.

They basically just say. "Never change Corrin. If you screw up, we'll clean up your mess for you."

Stupid over coddling big brothers.

[Azure Sen]

I think this opinion is pretty true of a lot of people here. Fates is probably (I'm a sucker for Radiant Dawn's structure, sue me) my favorite game in the series from a pure gameplay perspective, but it feels like we got the first draft of each of the stories. I think Valla's existence is probably the biggest example, because the curse as a plot point is so lame it's almost funny. This could be an awful idea, but I do wonder how each story would have panned out if a different writer wrote each one and went to Kibayashi for general continuity? Yes, it would have costed IS more cash, but I do wonder how it would have played out by having one person refine their route instead of Kibayashi having to power through all 3.

I AM SUMMONED

Kibayashi just wrote the draft and handed it off to IntSys's in-house writing team. What happened after that, he had no involvement it. And honestly, it's impossible to say how much of Kibayashi's draft even made it into the final game.

Knowing it was written by Manga/Anime writers explained a lot. For lack of a better word, maybe of the filler chapters feel episodic. There's the overarcing story, but the stuff that happens in the chapters has no real affect outside of their own chapter... Where in Fates, you could probably skip 4 or 5 chapters, and not miss out on anything.

Due to its serialized nature, manga rarely has any filler. The filler in anime is generally either there because a( the staff of the anime need to fulfill contractual obligations because series need to be a certain length or b( the anime is about to overtake whatever manga it's been adapted from.

And by the nature of being divided into chapters all Fire Emblem games have been episodic, and all of them have had their fair share of filler chapters that do nothing to resolve the overall plot. (Lookin' at you, Valm Arc.) The poor pacing of the Fates in comparison to those games has very little to do do with who wrote it and everything to do with them trying to cram enough content in all three versions of Fates to justify selling them as full priced games.

[The DanMan]

I think this opinion is pretty true of a lot of people here. Fates is probably (I'm a sucker for Radiant Dawn's structure, sue me) my favorite game in the series from a pure gameplay perspective, but it feels like we got the first draft of each of the stories. I think Valla's existence is probably the biggest example, because the curse as a plot point is so lame it's almost funny. This could be an awful idea, but I do wonder how each story would have panned out if a different writer wrote each one and went to Kibayashi for general continuity? Yes, it would have costed IS more cash, but I do wonder how it would have played out by having one person refine their route instead of Kibayashi having to power through all 3.

I AM SUMMONED

Kibayashi just wrote the draft and handed it off to IntSys's in-house writing team. What happened after that, he had no involvement it. And honestly, it's impossible to say how much of Kibayashi's draft even made it into the final game.

Avalanche is actually right on the money: it was noted in the 25th Anniversary book that IS followed Kibiyashi's original drafts very closely.

They followed a first draft extremely closely.

...Why...? Look, nobody nails things the first time, and that's never more true in writing. Stories go through revisions all the freaking time; the first draft usually kinda sucks. Yet they closely followed it.

Regardless of him writing Shounen manga, the story would invariably have been better if Kibiyashi had been more involved in things. Though at the end of the day, you can't blame any single party for how the story turned out.

[Thane]

Avalanche is actually right on the money: it was noted in the 25th Anniversary book that IS followed Kibiyashi's original drafts very closely.

They followed a first draft extremely closely.

...Why...? Look, nobody nails things the first time, and that's never more true in writing. Stories go through revisions all the freaking time; the first draft usually kinda sucks. Yet they closely followed it.

Regardless of him writing Shounen manga, the story would invariably have been better if Kibiyashi had been more involved in things. Though at the end of the day, you can't blame any single party for how the story turned out.

That's right, and his schedule was incredibly packed while he was writing Fates. We'll never know just what happened unless they choose to reveal the writing process in detail in the future, but you can't help but wonder just how many of the problems in the narrative stem from Kibayashi's draft and how many are the result of Intelligent Systems messing something up. No matter what though, I think the communication between Intelligent Systems' writing teams was lacking, and that the game suffered from some executive meddling. I have zero proof of that, but it's a gut feeling.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Thane

[Azure Sen]

Avalanche is actually right on the money: it was noted in the 25th Anniversary book that IS followed Kibiyashi's original drafts very closely.

They followed a first draft extremely closely.

...Why...? Look, nobody nails things the first time, and that's never more true in writing. Stories go through revisions all the freaking time; the first draft usually kinda sucks. Yet they closely followed it.

Regardless of him writing Shounen manga, the story would invariably have been better if Kibiyashi had been more involved in things. Though at the end of the day, you can't blame any single party for how the story turned out.

Just a small correction: it's Kibayashi, not Kibiyashi.

I'm mostly just annoyed with people saying "oh, Kibayashi only writes shounen manga, that must be the reason for Fates' story problems!" because a( the people saying this think that shounen consists of only Dragon Ball and a few other action-y shows when it doesn't, b( most of Kibayashi's shounen manga are mysteries and he's only written three shounen action series, and c( Kibayashi's actually written in a lot of different genres and quite a bit of his work is classified as seinen (i.e., is written for adults).

Do you have a link to the translation of the 25th anniversary book passage that says that? I'm always a little wary of people claiming that any Japanese source said [x], especially because of the whole "Kibayashi hates and disowns Fates" translation debacle a while back.

Unfortunately, unless the original draft gets leaked, we have no real way of saying how closely they followed it, although the fact that they added in Hinoka and changed Camilla's personality show they at least made some major changes.

Edited April 16, 2016 by AzureSen

[Avalanche]

Sorry about that Kibayashi comment, I had heard he had just written an outline (story bible even?) before, I was just never sure it was confirmed or a rumor. Honestly, I think a lot of the concepts for the Chapters in Fates are great ("Ambushed in a swamp with Faceless on all sides, a volcano where DV's are integral, defying the king you've been following and killing his most loyal followers ect), it's just in how they connect together where things kinda fell apart. I've read somewhere that Kibayashi wrote something like 500 pages of content for Fates and if I had to guess, IS probably just made a cliff notes version before development started. It would explain the complete lack of world building in Fates (thanks to Leif's thread for finally making me realize that Fates continent had no name) and how, well, episodic the whole game is.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Avalanche

[Azure Sen]

Sorry about that Kibayashi comment, I had heard he had written an outline (story bible even?) before, I was just never sure it was confirmed or a rumor. Honestly, I think a lot of the concepts for the Chapters in Fates are great ("Ambushed in a swamp with Faceless on all sides, a volcano where DV's are integral, defying the king you've been following and killing his most loyal followers ect), it's just in how they connect together where things kinda fell apart. I've read somewhere that Kibayashi wrote something like 500 pages of content for Fates and if I had to guess, IS probably just made a cliff notes version before development started. It would explain the complete lack of world building in Fates (thanks to Leif's s thread for finally making me realize that Fates continent had no name) and how, well, episodic the whole game is.

I'm sorry if I was too aggressive, it's a bit of a sore spot for me.

Kibayashi actually wrote 1500 pages for all three routes combined. From what little I've read of the translated stuff from the Anniversary Book, IntSys made some major changes, including adding in Hinoka (and presumably playing up the parallels between the Hoshido and Nohr siblings) and changing Camilla's personality from more Noire-esque to her current one. I'm also going to assume the Babyrealm was the work of IntSys, given how utterly disconnected from the main story it is.

[The DanMan]

Just a small correction: it's Kibayashi, not Kibiyashi.

I'm mostly just annoyed with people saying "oh, Kibayashi only writes shounen manga, that must be the reason for Fates' story problems!" because a( the people saying this think that shounen consists of only Dragon Ball and a few other action-y shows when it doesn't, b( most of Kibayashi's shounen manga are mysteries and he's only written three shounen action series, and c( Kibayashi's actually written in a lot of different genres and quite a bit of his work is classified as seinen (i.e., is written for adults).

Do you have a link to the translation of the 25th anniversary book passage that says that? I'm always a little wary of people claiming that any Japanese source said [x], especially because of the whole "Kibayashi hates and disowns Fates" translation debacle a while back.

Unfortunately, unless the original draft gets leaked, we have no real way of saying how closely they followed it, although the fact that they added in Hinoka and changed Camilla's personality show they at least made some major changes.

And you have every right to be skeptical, after that incident. One of Vincent's posts in this thread seems to be where it came from:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=58873

So, not the most reliable of sources, but it's something.

[Avalanche]

I'm sorry if I was too aggressive, it's a bit of a sore spot for me.

Kibayashi actually wrote 1500 pages for all three routes combined. From what little I've read of the translated stuff from the Anniversary Book, IntSys made some major changes, including adding in Hinoka (and presumably playing up the parallels between the Hoshido and Nohr siblings) and changing Camilla's personality from more Noire-esque to her current one. I'm also going to assume the Babyrealm was the work of IntSys, given how utterly disconnected from the main story it is.

No problem at all, I didn't think it was aggressive.

Now that I know Kozaki wrote that much about Fates, I really hope we get at least some of it either leaked or presented to us in some way. I would really love to know what he had planned and what actually made it in game. Also, the Deeprealms are basically guaranteed to have been a last minute addition, I'd be shocked if they weren't.

[Sentinel07]

No problem at all, I didn't think it was aggressive.

Now that I know Kozaki wrote that much about Fates, I really hope we get at least some of it either leaked or presented to us in some way. I would really love to know what he had planned and what actually made it in game. Also, the Deeprealms are basically guaranteed to have been a last minute addition, I'd be shocked if they weren't.

Well, we know 2 facts for sure.

1. Hinoka didn't exist in the draft.

2. Slime Garon was his idea.

I'd certainly like to know what else.

[Rezzy]

Well, we know 2 facts for sure.

1. Hinoka didn't exist in the draft.

2. Slime Garon was his idea.

I'd certainly like to know what else.

To be honest, if Hinoka was removed from the story, it wouldn't really make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

[RadiantDragon]

I heard Kagero was supposed to take Hinokas role as the big sister(hence Kagero's similarities to Mikoto and Hinokas lack of presence in the story). What could have changed if they would have stuck with the original ideas?

[semolinaro]

I honestly think the biggest mistake Fates made was splitting it into three games. Trying to write three compelling stories under serious time constraints is a recipe for disaster. It feels like we're playing through whatever ideas IS barfed out of their brains without any proofing.

All three routes lack any compelling moments of foreshadowing, believable character development, and most of all, worldbuilding. If you asked me to explain the history behind Nohr and Hoshido's conflict, I honestly couldn't tell you. Are they at war because Garon needed Hoshido's resources, or because he was possessed by Anankos? I don't know, because it's barely explained. In addition, Valla is the most bland kingdom in all of Fire Emblem. It's written to be some formerly-prosperous holy land ruled by a kind King, but then fell at the hands of Anankos. What happened to the people? Why is it empty? Even after Grima laid waste to the land in Awakening, the people still existed, living in his shadow of terror. For the longest time I thought Valla was an alternate dimension where no life could exist. That's how epically they failed to convince me that Valla was a kingdom.

And the greatest insult of all... the Hidden Truths DLC. I'm not against DLC, in fact, I enjoyed the Beach Brawl and Royal Royale DLC immensely. But you do NOT lock away key story points in a DLC, especially after we just drained our wallets on Revelation, the path that was SUPPOSED to give us all the answers. Honestly, when I finished Hidden Truths, I was so peeved. Is it really that hard to make a complete story, IS? Fates is one of the greatest gimmicks of the gaming world, yet I still love it unconditionally.

Edited April 17, 2016 by semolinaro

[Rezzy]

I heard Kagero was supposed to take Hinokas role as the big sister(hence Kagero's similarities to Mikoto and Hinokas lack of presence in the story). What could have changed if they would have stuck with the original ideas?

That would actually make a lot of sense, why is Kagero the one getting kidnapped in all 3 paths by Baron von Traitor? She doesn't really have the biggest political pull. (Oh, you kidnapped one of my bodyguards. Does that make you feel big?) Kidnapping a princess, however? That's a classic trope, but it is for a reason. A princess is an incredibly valuable prisoner.

I honestly think the biggest mistake Fates made was splitting it into three games. Trying to write three compelling stories under serious time constraints is a recipe for disaster. It feels like we're playing through whatever ideas IS barfed out of their brains without any proofing.

All three routes lack any compelling moments of foreshadowing, believable character development, and most of all, worldbuilding. If you asked me to explain the history behind Nohr and Hoshido's conflict, I honestly couldn't tell you. Are they at war because Garon needed Hoshido's resources, or because he was possessed by Anankos? I don't know, because it's barely explained. In addition, Valla is the most bland kingdom in all of Fire Emblem. It's written to be some formerly-prosperous holy land ruled by a king King, but then fell at the hands of Anankos. What happened to the people? Why is it empty? Even after Grima laid waste to the land in Awakening, the people still existed, living in his shadow of terror. For the longest time I thought Valla was an alternate dimension where no life could exist. That's how epically they failed to convince me that Valla was a kingdom.

And the greatest insult of all... the Hidden Truths DLC. I'm not against DLC, in fact, I enjoyed the Beach Brawl and Royal Royale DLC immensely. But you do NOT lock away key story points in a DLC, especially after we just drained our wallets on Revelation, the path that was SUPPOSED to give us all the answers. Honestly, when I finished Hidden Truths, I was so peeved. Is it really that hard to make a complete story, IS? Fates is one of the greatest gimmicks of the gaming world, yet I still love it unconditionally.

As far as I can tell, Valla is just a castle surrounded by a floaty rock garden. Ten Chapters wasted on what should have been world building and answering plot questions. The Anthony Arc (why is this even a thing?) should have been a side plot element to actual story progression during those chapters. The gauntlet of zombie parents could have been compressed to one chapter or also been included in chapters that actually had world building and story. Revelations forgot it's okay to include chapters that can't be summarized in one sentence.

[NeonZ]

All three routes lack any compelling moments of foreshadowing, believable character development, and most of all, worldbuilding. If you asked me to explain the history behind Nohr and Hoshido's conflict, I honestly couldn't tell you. Are they at war because Garon needed Hoshido's resources, or because he was possessed by Anankos? I don't know, because it's barely explained. In addition, Valla is the most bland kingdom in all of Fire Emblem. It's written to be some formerly-prosperous holy land ruled by a kind King, but then fell at the hands of Anankos. What happened to the people? Why is it empty? Even after Grima laid waste to the land in Awakening, the people still existed, living in his shadow of terror. For the longest time I thought Valla was an alternate dimension where no life could exist. That's how epically they failed to convince me that Valla was a kingdom.

I think it is directly said that all people from Valla are dead and just puppets. It might have been in Conquest chapter 15 rather than Revelations though.

And the greatest insult of all... the Hidden Truths DLC. I'm not against DLC, in fact, I enjoyed the Beach Brawl and Royal Royale DLC immensely. But you do NOT lock away key story points in a DLC, especially after we just drained our wallets on Revelation, the path that was SUPPOSED to give us all the answers. Honestly, when I finished Hidden Truths, I was so peeved. Is it really that hard to make a complete story, IS? Fates is one of the greatest gimmicks of the gaming world, yet I still love it unconditionally.

Aside from the information that was in the coded text, I have a really hard time believing that the new information given by Hidden Truths actually existed when they wrote the individual routes. Their attempt to tie the three Awakening characters into the main story is completely unconvincing considering what actually happens during them, and even their supports too. Even Lilith's real origin seems rather questionable, considering how there was nothing stopping her spirit from telling Corin the truth in the final chapter.

Edited April 17, 2016 by NeonZ

[saisymbolic]

I honestly would have been okay with the Awakening characters had they not been so adamant to tying them into Fates from Awakening, if that makes any sense.

Like, have you heard that saying that you have a person that looks exactly like you somewhere in the world? That is initially what I thought the Awakening characters were (sans the obvious fan service). I thought they were cameo characters, essentially. They looked like the Awakening trio; they even had similar character tropes but, overall, they had their own personalities and past tied into the Fates universe. Similar to Cid from Final Fantasy, the character is usually in most games but his appearance in each installment varied depending on the world.

The Hidden Truths DLC pains me because of they thought it a good idea to lock away an important element of the story and simultaneously push in Awakening.

Edited April 17, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Rezzy]

I honestly would have been okay with the Awakening characters had they not been so adamant to tying them into Fates from Awakening, if that makes any sense.

Like, have you heard that saying that you have a person that looks exactly like you somewhere in the world? That is initially what I thought the Awakening characters were (sans the obvious fan service). I thought they were cameo characters, essentially. They looked like the Awakening trio; they even had similar character tropes but, overall, they had their own personalities and past tied into the Fates universe. Similar to Cid from Final Fantasy, the character is usually in most games but his appearance in each installment varied depending on the world.

The Hidden Truths DLC pains me because of they thought it a good idea to lock away an important element of the story and simultaneously push in Awakening.

I was actually glad that they were the same characters, and not just blatant fan-service. (Although Asugi, Rhajat, and Caeldori still are.) They are sort of like the Pegasus Sisters from FE1 and FE3 being in FE2. However, I don't like that their DLC hid key story points that should have been in the main story. Maybe they could have had the nameless continent that Fates takes place on be in the same world as Awakening, so they didn't need some complex dimension hopping explanation for reaching Fatesland.