Does Fire emblem hate old people?

[saisymbolic]

What about Flora? o3o

I tried to train up Flora. She ended up doodoo.

[Locke087]

I tried to train up Flora. She ended up doodoo.

She is bad in Rev but in Conquest she can be good and she is better then Felicia (imo because of her strength growth and base str problems, I prefer Jakob and Flora for this reason alone).

[saisymbolic]

She is bad in Rev but in Conquest she can be good and she is better then Felicia (imo because of her strength growth and base str problems, I prefer Jakob and Flora for this reason alone).

Yeah, it was in Revelation. She turned out to be really slow. I could have dealt with the relatively low strength as long as she could double. My favorite Ice sibling and she turned out to be doodoo in my file. T_T

[Dengres]

I don't think people are counting the RD "pre-promotes" since there are so many there. Geoffrey would count in PoR, but he's quite outdone by Titania, Oscar, and Kieran there. And even if RD Geoffrey did count, he sucks for the reason that he has shitty availability.

Yeah I know. Technically they are though.

And Geoffrey may be outdone by them, but he's still a good unit. That was the main point.

[Locke087]

Yeah, it was in Revelation. She turned out to be really slow. I could have dealt with the relatively low strength as long as she could double. My favorite Ice sibling and she turned out to be doodoo in my file. T_T

Yep she is trash in Rev, though I should note doubling is something Flora will never really do even in Conquest. Jakob is better then Flora 100% I was just saying she better then Felicia in Conquest due her heavy reliance on Flame Shurikin to do any damage as a Maid....

[Rezzy]

Isn't this kind of realistic though? As much as I find a lot of Fire Emblem characters to be improbably young, most of them are in (or at least nearing) the physical prime of their lives while characters like Gunter, Reina ETC are over the hill in terms of physical performance. I mean shit, most professional sports players are considered to be past their prime by the time they hit mid-30's and it seems to me like Reina, Yukimura and Fuga would be somewhere in their fourties while Gunter is easily 50+.

That's how I kind of see it. The typical "old" character is a prepromote with decent bases and poor growths. They have immediate value, but lower long term potential, where the younger units have lower bases and better growths.

(Usually the bases are "bad" if you figure that they have tier 2 bases, but in the early chapters, their bases are great by comparison to all the other units.)

Considering I'm pushing 30, I guess I'd be a prepromote if I was a Fire Emblem unit. Maybe I could be a Staff bot.

[saisymbolic]

Yep she is trash in Rev, though I should note doubling is something Flora will never really do even in Conquest. Jakob is better then Flora 100% I was just saying she better then Felicia in Conquest due her heavy reliance on Flame Shurikin to do any damage as a Maid....

Welp, Flora. I tried to love you as a unit... I tried.

I have to say, though, Felicia came in clutch with that Flame Shuriken in Conquest.

Edited April 17, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Rezzy]

I don't think people are counting the RD "pre-promotes" since there are so many there. Geoffrey would count in PoR, but he's quite outdone by Titania, Oscar, and Kieran there. And even if RD Geoffrey did count, he sucks for the reason that he has shitty availability.

Tier 2 is the new Tier 1, in RD, since there's only like 10 units that actually join as Tier 1 units.

I think "oldER" would be a good term. Plus I believe there's some dialogue in his supports that, well, supports him being one of the older characters.

Considering 90% of your units are seemingly younger than 30, being one of the oldest isn't that hard in Fates.

Welp, Flora. I tried to love you as a unit... I tried.

I have to say, though, Felicia came in clutch with that Flame Shuriken.

Can Flora level to 40, like Jakob and Felicia?

[Emblem Blade]

Welp, Flora. I tried to love you as a unit... I tried.

I have to say, though, Felicia came in clutch with that Flame Shuriken in Conquest.

On my Revelations Runthrough, Flora on a Lvl 40 comparison to Jakob and Felicia on their stats by that time (maxed or not capped) in terms of leading over others in their base class only with no boosters involved:

Felicia:

HP (34) Str (15) Mag (32) Skl (29) Spd (28) Lck (32) Def (14) Res (28)

Jakob:

HP (45) Str (27) Mag (20) Skl (33) Spd (30) Lck (30) Def (25) Res (24)

Flora:

HP (40) Str (26) Mag (23) Skl (32) Spd (31) Lck (31) Def (22) Res (26)

Looking at the Lvl 40 stats on my Revelation Files, each of the servants have their own use.

*Flora was more of a mixed attacker and she certainly was able to prove her use even though late-game recruitment sucks. She could tank anything form a non-Zerker and KO both physical and magical opponents with ease thanks to her balanced offensive stats (Str/Mag). Her HP though made me get concerned once she was facing multiple Zerkers in any chapter as 22 Defense isn't enough for cases like that.

*Felicia was a magical tank by all means, I found out that she only had a slightly higher survival when I gave her access to classes such as Paladin/Hero/Bow Knight via marriage sets. She could KO pesky mages through a possible lucky critical-hit and she had the habit of scoring low crit chances for a critical or dodging enemies with 85%+ Hit Rate on her which is something that Jakob and Flora couldn't do at all. That said, paper thin HP/Defense made me worry whenever a melee class came rushing at her.

*Jakob like Flora was a mixed attacker but mostly a physical variation as I only got lucky on his average Magic Growth. He could tank hits respectively even surviving one hit from a Berserker but his Speed Growths kept getting screwed up. He was more of an anti-melee unit each time as he could tank and do respectable damage even though his Speed kept allowing the likes of Swordmasters and Elite Ninjas double him (these two classes shouldn't be able to if he had better Speed Growths).

Tier 2 is the new Tier 1, in RD, since there's only like 10 units that actually join as Tier 1 units.

Considering 90% of your units are seemingly younger than 30, being one of the oldest isn't that hard in Fates.

Can Flora level to 40, like Jakob and Felicia?

Naturally, no. Only Jakob (if you went F! Kamui) or Felicia (if you went M! Kamui) can normally hit Lvl 40, mostly because they are one of your starting helpers alongside Azura who can naturally hit Lvl 40 as well. Units like Flora requires 4 Eternal Seals to reach Lvl 40 as she is a normal character (only DLC classes or specific characters aka Azura and Jakob/Felicia the latter depending on your Avatar's gender have) cap out at Lvl 20 normally.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[saisymbolic]

On my Revelations Runthrough, Flora on a Lvl 40 comparison to Jakob and Felicia on their stats by that time (maxed or not capped) in terms of leading over others in their base class only with no boosters involved:

Felicia:

HP (34) Str (15) Mag (32) Skl (29) Spd (28) Lck (32) Def (14) Res (28)

Jakob:

HP (45) Str (27) Mag (20) Skl (33) Spd (30) Lck (30) Def (25) Res (24)

Flora:

HP (40) Str (26) Mag (23) Skl (32) Spd (31) Lck (31) Def (22) Res (26)

Looking at the Lvl 40 stats on my Revelation Files, each of the servants have their own use.

*Flora was more of a mixed attacker and she certainly was able to prove her use even though late-game recruitment sucks. She could tank anything form a non-Zerker and KO both physical and magical opponents with ease thanks to her balanced offensive stats (Str/Mag). Her HP though made me get concerned once she was facing multiple Zerkers in any chapter as 22 Defense isn't enough for cases like that.

*Felicia was a magical tank by all means, I found out that she only had a slightly higher survival when I gave her access to classes such as Paladin/Hero/Bow Knight via marriage sets. She could KO pesky mages through a possible lucky critical-hit and she had the habit of scoring low crit chances for a critical or dodging enemies with 85%+ Hit Rate on her which is something that Jakob and Flora couldn't do at all. That said, paper thin HP/Defense made me worry whenever a melee class came rushing at her.

*Jakob like Flora was a mixed attacker but mostly a physical variation as I only got lucky on his average Magic Growth. He could tank hits respectively even surviving one hit from a Berserker but his Speed Growths kept getting screwed up. He was more of an anti-melee unit each time as he could tank and do respectable damage even though his Speed kept allowing the likes of Swordmasters and Elite Ninjas double him (these two classes shouldn't be able to if he had better Speed Growths).

Hm, that's interesting. I might have to re-evaluate. Thanks for posting that.

[Emblem Blade]

Hm, that's interesting. I might have to re-evaluate. Thanks for posting that.

I had to post of these stats as Maid/Butler (I never reclassed any of those three until they were all Lvl 40 to see who I should use) since apparently my post on another topic on Felicia's fragile nature makes her prone to being KO'd too fast even in a more durable class compared to her fellow friend Jakob and her own older sister, Flora. That post of mine got the response of base stats being changed, not the stat growths for better stats which contribute more for final results on a better stat scale. The only reason Felicia never got defeated on my save files is due to both Kamui and Kaze being adjacent to her (Dragonic Ward and Miraculous Save both saved her multiple times where she should have died).

Back to the thread topic:

In particular regarding the Crutch Characters of each FE game. The promoted ally you get at the start of the game tends to have use, early on but their potential as you progress changes but I'm just going to stick to Fates as this topic is on the 'Fates' forum. Gunter's growths/stats make him less reliable mid-late game as Silas and Peri outclass him and Xander is already stat-wise superior. He still makes a fine support partner thanks to the boosts Great Knights offer and a +1 Movement to Kamui never hurts when you want to rush the chapter objective. Gunter is more of a Jagen than anything else he could be due to his rather poor growths that hardly improve his usefulness which is only offset by his starting stats which help you until you start getting more characters early on.

[VeryAngryBisharp]

She is pretty bad in Rev but at least usable in Conquest. She did alright in my first playthrough of the game.

Of course now that I know she exists I tend to save all my statboosters to give to Flora. She is my favorite after all.

[eclipse]

Jagen sucks, Wendell is god, Boah sucks pegasus ass, Lorenz is kinda ok, Gotoh isn't as good as his archetype, Wallace is pretty shitty, Renault is only pretty good as a staffbot, Athos is god, Duessel can be good, and Basilio is as good as any character in Awakening.

Going by my too-many runs in SD. . .

Jagen - the higher the difficulty, the more clutch he becomes, because it takes a while for a flying Silver Lance to suck outright. He'll stick around long enough for the growth units to actually Do Stuff.

Wendell - is hilariously fast, but needs time to get to the staves that matter (Warp/Physic/Fortify).

Boah - Apparently, using Excalibur and Warp at base is a bad thing. Except it's not. Warp doesn't give a crap about stats, and Physic's gonna help no matter who's wielding it.

Lorenz - By the time he joins, your team should be able to wield Silvers decently well. He can chip stuff with bows on a horse, but that's about it.

And in FE7. . .

Wallace - He can actually function as a half-decent wall in stuff that's not HHM. Yes, I used him in my first-ever run of this game, and yes he wound up bailing my sorry ass. He's not ideal, but he'll do his job.

Renault - Staffbots are usually ranked high for a reason. That's a huge point in Renault's favor.

Everyone else. . .

Duessel - He kinda reminds me of a more mobile Wallace.

Basilio - I use him as pure utility, because Rally Strength is a godsend on later levels.

Yodel/Niime - Both serve as utility characters.

tl;dr - Old people are bad if and only if you think "growth" means "good".

[Sentacotus]

I used the hell outta Shura in Conquest I thought he was awesome. As for old units like Marcus, Gunter, Reina etc they are kinda made that way to be older little room for growth start out as powerhouses Jeigan arhetype. But then again there are ones like Athos that beastly magnificent sage of a man.

Maybe we need an expendables version of Fire Emblem with a bunch of geriatric legends put in the same game as the heroes lol.

[jdb1984]

Felicia is prepromoted as well, but has the growths and stats of a normal unit.

[Emblem Blade]

Your opinion is incorrect about Flora > Felicia considering Felicia (Ch 6) or Felicia (Ch 15) has better availability, better staff, and Flame Shurikan. Oh, and she can support all the dudes and has a great personal for Corrin. Flora availabilty sucks (she joins around Ch 20 after upgrading the turret) and she can only support two units who probably have better Pair-Up options. Flora's combat is also bad and her reclass options require her to go through E-rank weapons.

How does Flora who has good Str/Def Growths and a slightly better HP Growth on top of already having very decent Skl/Spd/Lck/Res Growths a 'bad' thing? Sure Felicia and Jakob both have more availability (the one you start off with has more availability to become stronger) but Flora is by no means a bad unit if you take time to train her. Flora is more rounded stat-wise by growths and she only loses to Felica in Magic, Luck and Resistance and the latter isn't as bad as all three servants can learn Tomebreaker. Additionally, Felicia's reclass options also require her to start with E-Rank weapons as well, same with Jakob if you reclass to anything that doesn't use Shurikens/Knifes. Chances are that Jakob and Flora will be much better for dealing with both physical and magical attackers thanks to having better Defense Growths than Felicia can. Also, when you can grind for exp. and gold (BR/RV and for CQ players there's DLC), availability doesn't really matter as much anymore in Fates unlike the older installments where poor availability can cause said units to perform worse since they need more time to catch up with everyone else and it can hinder your progress. Flora also isn't the only unit who little to no supports, she has three supports (Kamui + Kamui/Flora's child + Felicia) compared to Scarlet, Yukimura, Izama and Fuga who can only support with Kamui and their child alone.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

On the reverse if you can grind Alvailability matters more because you get 20/20 monster before the other even exists

[Emblem Blade]

On the reverse if you can grind Alvailability matters more because you get 20/20 monster before the other even exists

That part can both help and hurt. It helps as you can attempt to balance out your team more (but requires effort and planning because of the part that hurts). It hurts as enemies can KO your weaker units with more ease.

If you do random skirmishes, you can choose which location (out of those you already have access to) where you want to grind and enemies stats/promotions scale depending on the location chosen. DLC such as Boo Camp have those Faceless that scale pretty fast depending on your story progress.

Back to the thread topic: I find the old characters to be really fun since while they're still viable even with possibly less stellar stats and growths compared to everyone else, they're not screaming "Look at how broken and overpowered I am" most of the time.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[Locke087]

Your opinion is incorrect about Flora > Felicia considering Felicia (Ch 6) or Felicia (Ch 15) has better availability, better staff, and Flame Shurikan. Oh, and she can support all the dudes and has a great personal for Corrin. Flora availabilty sucks (she joins around Ch 20 after upgrading the turret) and she can only support two units who probably have better Pair-Up options. Flora's combat is also bad and her reclass options require her to go through E-rank weapons.

I do love you said my opinion is incorrect that's hilarious... The only way for Felicia under her canon class to do any real sort of damage is to have Flame Shirken and under normal no grind standards in conquest which is the only place I'm talking about Flora (I openly said she is trash in rev), Flora will have similar stats to Felicia's at join time (if you have her join at the earliest possible time which is the second you can get a level III flame orb) and here's the kicker she can reliable use more than one flecthing knife (she can also get critical's with her weapon of choice), if Jakob is your servant because you're playing is a female avatar yes he is 100% better but if Felicia is she relies too heavily on Flame Shirken an item you can only get one of in conquest. Also late join Jakob is worse (imo) than Flora bar maybe his ability. Now Felicia is very good in both revelations and birthright I do not think the same in conquest due to an inability to forge Flame Shirkens and even then Jakob is still better.

But really this is just a preference thing I just don't like Felicia because she's not very good with any knife not named Flame Shirken.

[BANRYU]

IMO, yes.

Reina and Shura aren't really even all that old, TBH. I'd place them at most in their 40s; Shura is def younger than Kotaro bc Kotaro seemingly remembers wrecking Kohga (when Shura was a kid), and he doesn't look older than 50s.

Edited April 18, 2016 by BANRYU

[Augestein]

Then just turn Felicia into a Strategist after you get tomebreaker and call it a day. You can use her as a staff user that can counterattack when she's a maid, and then use her magic stat as her attack stat. There's no problem there. Sure, Jacob/Flora are better as a Butler/Maid, but her reclass option is perfectly fine. Plus, at least on reclass she doesn't lose her staves. Jacob loses EVERYTHING. And Flora might lose everything depending on what you become.

[Locke087]

Then just turn Felicia into a Strategist after you get tomebreaker and call it a day. You can use her as a staff user that can counterattack when she's a maid, and then use her magic stat as her attack stat. There's no problem there. Sure, Jacob/Flora are better as a Butler/Maid, but her reclass option is perfectly fine. Plus, at least on reclass she doesn't lose her staves. Jacob loses EVERYTHING. And Flora might lose everything depending on what you become.

Fair enough, just talking in a no reclass run sense. I never used Felicia as a strategist how does she compare with Elise?

[Emblem Blade]

Then just turn Felicia into a Strategist after you get tomebreaker and call it a day. You can use her as a staff user that can counterattack when she's a maid, and then use her magic stat as her attack stat. There's no problem there. Sure, Jacob/Flora are better as a Butler/Maid, but her reclass option is perfectly fine. Plus, at least on reclass she doesn't lose her staves. Jacob loses EVERYTHING. And Flora might lose everything depending on what you become.

Fair enough, just talking in a no reclass run sense. I never used Felicia as a strategist how does she compare with Elise?

Flora has Strategist (due to having her base class being Troubadour). With Dark Mage and Mercenary being her secondary base classes, she also has access to Sorcerer, Dark Knight, Hero and Bow Knight. That's a pretty good line up for either wanting more synergy. Hero for Sol (50% damage dealt restores your HP) and Axebreaker (anti-axe/club which is nice against opposing Vanguards, Heros, Wyvern Lords, Malig Knights and most certainly Zerkers), Sorcerer for Vengeance (high risk-high return), Dark Knight for Lifetaker (recover 50% of your total HP on your turn if you defeat the opponent [you not your ally I believe]) and Bow Knight for Shurikenbreaker (anti-Elite Ninja and Mechanist). Flora has a decent enough Strength to run any of her physical classes but she might struggle to get enough Magic Growths to get a decent enough Magic Stat for magical attacks (I had a hard time getting her to get close to 29 Mag as a Maid).

Felicia has access to some power mostly in a magical class (which she lacks outside of Strategist as her other classes are Hero and Bow Knight) due to her modifiers and overall growths. Hero offers her Sol which is good but results in that you can't use Bolt/Flame/Levin/Shining weapons to use Sol. Bow Knight offers her Shurikenbreaker to help her cope with Elite Ninjas which are common staples in online matches and in some chapters.

*Felicia's modifiers: -2 Str, +2 Mag, +1 Spd, -1 Def, +1 Res

*Elise's modifiers: -1 Str, +3 Mag, -2 Skl, +1 Spd, +1 Lck, -3 Def, +1 Res.

**Elise is going to hit harder than Felicia if both are in the same magical class even if both use the same weapons. Felicia is slightly more durable due to her modifiers. Again though, both of these two have rather below-average to poor HP/Defense Growths in their base classes (I've found out that I needed to get my Elise to Priestess to get her HP to 44 without boosters).

Jakob has the modifiers, growths and stats to go with his normal reclass options. Cavalier for Paladin (Aegis and Defender are good skills) and Great Knight (Luna and Armored Blow are great offensive skills). Jakob will mostly see use to physical classes so his only reclass options suit him fine.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Fair enough, just talking in a no reclass run sense. I never used Felicia as a strategist how does she compare with Elise?

Almost as powerful. Elise promoted at level 20 will be very slightly ahead at everything that matters for a strategist by no more than 3 points usually. Elise would have to work up from E rank tomes, but still very damaging with a forged fire tome and tomefaire.

Thing is, you can have strategist felicia as early as ch6, double most enemies, and enemies tend to not have much resistance that early.

Edited April 18, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[Emblem Blade]

Yawn, if you guys think a unit that joins near Endgame is better than the unit you start with because of grinding, then sorry, I can't fix bad players.

Ok then think about from this perspective, if you got all characters in each path in their starting class at the very beginning of the game which of them would be better given their base growths? If you can't understand what I'm saying than you probably never will get why I say that grinding removes just about every difference in characters (potential) no matter when you get them in the game.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Emblem Blade