Opinions on the Enemy "Cheating"?

[Rezzy]

What does everyone think about the computer having access to exclusive weapons and skills? The thing that bothers me most is many enemies having access to all these range 1-2 axes, swords, lances, and bows. The specifically nerfed Hand Axes and Javelins, yet here the computer gets full access to them? I'm of the opinion that the player should have access to everything the computer does. I don't mind major bosses having their own signature weapon, but why does random brigand #3 get a superior version of the hand axe that works unnerfed like previous games, and it doesn't even drop when we kill him.

To a lesser degree, but still annoying is generic enemies getting skills outside their skill set. This isn't as bad, since we can get pretty much any legit skill on our units, but it kinda makes no sense story-wise? Why do all these Ninjas get Lunge? It's not only a cross-class skill, it's a cross-nation skill. Unless all these Ninjas have Wyvern Rider as their secondary class, what are they doing with that skill?

The idea of a legion of Wyvern Riders defecting to Hoshido a la Path of Radiance would have been a nice world building subplot, but it the absence of that, I call shenanigans.

Anyone else bothered by these or other mechanics?

[Thane]

I think it's great. The more weapons and skills the AI has access to, the more Intelligent Systems have to play around with to create a more challenging experience.

Skills rarely make sense due to story and gameplay segregation. Imagine that, for instance, an unarmored villager can sometimes reduce the damage taken from a huge, legendary axe by raising their arms a little bit.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Thane

[Original Alear]

I am annoyed that enemy units have lunge, period, but I don't really mind enemies having skills outside of their class. Just because the player's access to lunge is class based doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense for other units to be able to learn it. Honestly, I kinda feel like lunge is perfectly appropriate on a ninja. I'd object more to something like a standard enemy samurai/swordmaster with wary fighter (for all I know that exists) or enemy valkyrie with HP+5.

EDIT-The thing that bothers me the most is probably dual guard activating on 0 damage enemy attacks. I can kinda understand, but it still bugs me.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Togami Byakuga

[Redwall]

I'm not bothered by the enemies having exclusive weapons since we players have access to an even stronger weapon, our ability to think critically. I do dislike Lunge Ninja, but more because they highlight the need for high-ish stats (or *breaker skills) in efficiently clearing levels, which I think is a more fundamental design problem; I'm otherwise fine with enemy-only things.

[Rezzy]

EDIT-The thing that bothers me the most is probably dual guard activating on 0 damage enemy attacks. I can kinda understand, but it still bugs me.

Yeah, but at least that works both ways. To go along with that, I wish skills like Poison Strike actually had to hit and/or do damage to activate.

[Locke087]

Only thing I hate about this is not so much story stuff because fates already failed there... It's that I have to paranoidily check the skills of every enemy just to make sure they don't have certain ones that they have no right having. It makes it so it's hard to tell what enemies will have what, nothing quite like attacking a Archer to suddenly discover that it has counter. Or having to check every single enemy and the battlefield for flipping Lunge because there's no consistency between who receives Lunge and who doesn't, especially on lunatic. I wish on the battle screen it would display enemy skills or something or maybe put exclamation marks on them. Because if they're going to put tons of skills that don't belong on certain classes on other classes they need some way to signal to the player that they have these skills other than having the player individually check every bloody enemy that comes in.

Edit: I want to make this clear I like how the skill make things more interesting, I just wish the delevolpers could have found a way to make things more clear to the player.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Locke087

[Dark Holy Elf]

I quickly got into the habit of just moving the cursor over every enemy in a group before engaging them. I dunno about you but I certainly learned the symbol for Lunge and Counter quickly! Actually, I learned Counter from Awakening... *grumbles* And I liked how you could just click on any icons you didn't recognise; good use of the touchscreen IMO.

To me it feels very flavourful that poison strike and debuffs still work upon doing 0 damage (you can quibble with missing). The ninja may not damage you directly, but he weakens you for future combat. If you could just null ninjas with a big ol' tank it'd defeat much of their point IMO. And from a gameplay perspective I'm fine with some of these still working even if you dodge, because they don't want to overpower dodge-tanking.


Otherwise:

-I'm fine with enemies having creative skill combos. You as the player can create them too! I mean, I don't really like Counter much in general, but I'll admit it fits beautifully on an archer (it possibly should've been an archer skill in the first place...).

-I definitely think that bosses needed those 1-2 weapons they have. As well as any other immobile enemies like staff-using priestesses. I don't actually recall many moving enemies with them, though they did exist. Since "0 move" is a nerf player units never have, I'm fine with giving them an artificially good weapon to compensate.

-Enemies and players are not the same, and both do have some advantages the others don't have. Enemies get the aforementioned 1-2 weapons and have an arguably easier time getting cross-class skills (particularly bosses; Hinoka has access to both Mercenary and Cavalier/Knight along with her cheaty Winged Shield apparently?). But players have things like a songstress, tonics, and supports (never mind the better intelligence and far more dragon vein use). The point isn't to make both sides "equal" anyway, it's to create a fun single-player experience.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Dark Holy Elf

[VeryAngryBisharp]

I am absolutely fine with the skills. That's how the game should be made hard, with fun skill combos, instead of just beefed up stats.

The weapon thing is fine too, as long as they don't give every generic enemy access to them. Since usually only bosses have them.

[Dragrath]

Hmm I haven't played Fates yet (found this by recent threads so my comments will mainly be based on other games or what I have already been spoiled on FE14). In general because the AI is not good enough to match human brain power yet it is basically a necessity in order for the AI to give a challenge.

Thus giving the AI skill sets and weapons/forges the player normally can't get is fine with reason.

That said I feel that structure is needed in how the AI cheats i.e. a set skill set at least for a playthrough (none of the Lunatic+ random enemy skill sets of OP trolling skills) That said I am a bit biased that these differences should ideally have an explanation. I also dislike what I have heard about Captured units completely losing enemy only skills. If anything they should have made it such that the skills turn into a weaker more player balanced version rather than outright disappearing as generics lacking reclass options really hurts them.

For new weapons outright only in enemy hands I am fine with them but I still prefer some way for the player to with enough perseverance and ingenuity be able to claim them for themselves (such as tricking bosses or other enemies into swapping weapons so the particular weapon becomes unequipped letting your thief steal it like the older games) For weapons that outright can't be given to players/used by certain characters that is what Prf* ranked weapons have always been for(sounds like what these 1-2 range weapons should have been, assuming the extreme 1-2 range weapon nerf was warranted which I find hard to believe).(i.e. bring back stealing IS please!!!(for both player and AI forges can be forced to revert on obtaining via stealing)) I also miss the siege tomes which I feel have been under utilized mechanically (i.e. siege tomes should exist and be able to retaliate against other siege tomes though they should never be able to double)

That said I also feel that recent FE games have given players far too much to start with so that likely compounds into my philosophy. Buffing the enemy growths on higher difficulties as well as giving them full skill sets(with a 6th skill as they lack personals for the highest difficulties) or even prf* ranked weapons are all fair game(I also believe that any unit with their own portrait and name (boss or playable) should have the same rules so they should also get class sets and personal skills. And likewise enemy only classes should also be given their own skill sets(they don't need to be unique but they need to have skills as well)

From this you can see that I feel that enemies should have every base option the players have plus a bit more. The player should however with planing and ingenuity be able to acquire at least some of these without cheating(via capture/enemy recruitment or stealing)

[Thor Odinson]

I'm fine with them. If the gameplay's fun and not entirely unfair then, I don't really care. I work with what I got and beat their ass.

I mean, for us players who genuinely enjoy Lunatic mode and not trying to do it for the status, take away enemy-only skills/skills on the wrong class/enemy-specific weapons and, while it's not /impossible/ to make a good L mode (I think FE12 still had hackforges though) it'd definitely give the mode a lot less freedom to be engaging and actually difficult.

[NekoKnight]

If bosses had the player variant of weapons, they'd be much easier to beat. It's one of the trade-offs for them typically being immobile. 1-2 range weapons are balanced to have situational uses (ie not as good at dedicated range 1 or range 2 weapons) so you'd be boned if you were unable to move or switch weapons.

As far as skills are concerned, it's more unfair to the game that most of their units don't get any skills, not even their natural class skills. Giving them exotic skills is a nice way to customize an encounter difficulty, making the player consider their strategy carefully. I might despise Lunge Ninjas but damn if that isn't a brilliant use of the skill.

[Emblem Blade]

Enemy-only skills and weapons make for a much more fun experience since it will make you creatively think on how to not get beaten by the computer AI. As Dark Holy Elf said, the Computer and us Players aren't the same person, therefore the Computer has no need to be restricted by normal limitations. With humans being able to think out-of-the-box to come up with even harder and complex character builds for units, the end result is that we still outclass the Computer AI even with their enemy-only skills/weapons. The enemy-only weapons/skills is just to make the game more interesting and not so easy (despite the game being easy regardless). Yes Thor Odinson, removing some traits that only enemies have would make an easy game like Fates too easy which would make the game worthy of not needing to be created as there would be no real challenge to it.

[Tolvir]

Makes it more challenging. I am fine with the NPC having access to things like that, and having some abilities that the player doesnt have access to. As long as it doesnt get to where the AI is cheating on a massive scale, for example something common in RTS games such as Warcraft III, the AI will speed up its productions faster than normal, so while you are building your third farm, the enemy already has a small army on the move to your base.

I am actually more annoyed that weapons like Kukris and Maces were made NPC exclusive as Kukris and Maces are some of my favorite weapons, and would of loved to use one.

[Thane]

As far as skills are concerned, it's more unfair to the game that most of their units don't get any skills, not even their natural class skills. Giving them exotic skills is a nice way to customize an encounter difficulty, making the player consider their strategy carefully. I might despise Lunge Ninjas but damn if that isn't a brilliant use of the skill.

It makes me sad that we don't have fanart of that yet; I'd love to see Xander getting tossed around like a volleyball while on his horse and in full armor.

[Rezzy]

Makes it more challenging. I am fine with the NPC having access to things like that, and having some abilities that the player doesnt have access to. As long as it doesnt get to where the AI is cheating on a massive scale, for example something common in RTS games such as Warcraft III, the AI will speed up its productions faster than normal, so while you are building your third farm, the enemy already has a small army on the move to your base.

I am actually more annoyed that weapons like Kukris and Maces were made NPC exclusive as Kukris and Maces are some of my favorite weapons, and would of loved to use one.

The Skills was a minor nitpick of mine, and the enemy exclusive weapons are my main beef. I don't think they should have nerfed 1-2 axes and lances so hard to begin with, if the computer needs a special version of them to stay viable. There's nothing stopping them from carrying more than one weapon, either.

Part of this may be coming from a D&D mind set. If as a DM, I give an enemy a neat weapon, the players are going to be expecting to be able to use it afterwards. I might be able to get away with saying a major boss has a weapon that only they can use, a la Thor's Mjolnir, but if every generic mook starts carrying special snowflake weapons, it will start to annoy the players.

I know some non-bosses seem to be stationary, but they shouldn't need to be stationary, which could obviate the need for a special weapon. Also, I don't remember the Fates stats, but it past games, the Throne usually had pretty good bonuses, which helped compensate for them being stationary. Once you get past the early chapters, bosses should always carry a ranged weapon, but it doesn't need to be enemy-exclusive, unless it's a signature weapon.

[Roflolxp54]

Unfortunately, the "Computer is a Cheating Bastard" trope is pretty much part of what makes higher difficulties, well, challenging. And Fates is NOT the first game to go through this.

Awakening has loads that would seem ridiculous in Fates:

-hack-forges (the forging system is different in Awakening, and enemy units on higher difficulties and Apotheosis can have weapons that are forged to extents impossible to reach for players)

-enemy only Hawkeye skill (guaranteed 100% listed Hit rate -- this unit will never miss so the only way to avoid an attack is to use Vantage to get the first hit or to Dual Guard it; stupid when combined with Luna+ or the Mire tome, which is a dark magic tome with 3-10 range)

-enemy only Luna+, Pavise+, Aegis+ (100% activation rates of the skills, though Luna+ has lowest proc priority among attack skills)

-enemy only Dragonskin (debut of this skill; Fates pretty much buffed it to prevent post-battle damage and reduce attack skill and critical hit damage)

-Rightful God (+30% skill activation rate -- Merchant Anna boss in Apotheosis secret route has a 65% activation rate for Aether)

-Vantage+ (unless your own unit activates Vantage, the unit with Vantage+ will always get the first strike)

In Fates, it sort of annoys me that story characters that can appear as enemy units can have regular skills that would be impossible for them to learn under any circumstance (outside of cheating/hacking) such as Kagero and especially Shura, who can have Grisly Wound on Conquest route on Hard difficulty and up.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[Zerosabers]

Enemies 'cheating' isn't cheating in the slightest. Giving enemy exclusive skills is fine because if players had access to everything the AI does the games would snap in two.

Imagine Takumi with 1-2 range personal bow and vantage+.

[Delfino]

I can understand getting annoyed by enemies having stuff that they shouldn't have, or stuff that is better than what you have, and you're not allowed to get it ever. But at the same time, it allows for more interesting and unique experiences, and forces you to actually pay attention to what the enemy has, so I'll take the lesser of two evils (AI having stuff you can't have over the experience being more boring).

The only thing that I would say truly bothers me would be enemies having skills that are legit impossible to obtain without cheating. I HATE that chapter in Conquest that has all of those ninjas with Grisly Wound. It's like get out of here, you're not even the right species for that. I think there's a reason why that skill can only be learned by a few player units...

[Emblem Blade]

Ryoma: A true warrior doesn't care if the computer 'cheats' on them! You still can beat them up as you're still better than them as they only cheat to try to become as strong as you are.

Unfortunately, the "Computer is a Cheating Bastard" trope is pretty much part of what makes higher difficulties, well, challenging. And Fates is NOT the first game to go through this.

Awakening has loads that would seem ridiculous in Fates:

-hack-forges (the forging system is different in Awakening, and enemy units on higher difficulties and Apotheosis can have weapons that are forged to extents impossible to reach for players)

-enemy only Hawkeye skill (guaranteed 100% listed Hit rate -- this unit will never miss so the only way to avoid an attack is to use Vantage to get the first hit or to Dual Guard it; stupid when combined with Luna+ or the Mire tome, which is a dark magic tome with 3-10 range)

-enemy only Luna+, Pavise+, Aegis+ (100% activation rates of the skills, though Luna+ has lowest proc priority among attack skills)

-enemy only Dragonskin (debut of this skill; Fates pretty much buffed it to prevent post-battle damage and reduce attack skill and critical hit damage)

-Rightful God (+30% skill activation rate -- Merchant Anna boss in Apotheosis secret route has a 65% activation rate for Aether)

-Vantage+ (unless your own unit activates Vantage, the unit with Vantage+ will always get the first strike)

In Fates, it sort of annoys me that story characters that can appear as enemy units can have regular skills that would be impossible for them to learn under any circumstance (outside of cheating/hacking) such as Kagero and especially Shura, who can have Grisly Wound on Conquest route on Hard difficulty and up.

Which is why I see Fates as being rather modest about the amount of enemy-only skills/weapons. Awakening had cranked up the 'limitations' for skills/weapons out the window and let the computer have beyond-the-impossible skills that make things harder. (IE. Apotheosis Snipers had Dragonskin, Counter, Hawkeye, Luna+ and Vantage+ on top of having some stupidly high absurd stats to make grand use of said skills...)

It makes me sad that we don't have fanart of that yet; I'd love to see Xander getting tossed around like a volleyball while on his horse and in full armor.

Xander: Do your worst.

[Rezzy]

It makes me sad that we don't have fanart of that yet; I'd love to see Xander getting tossed around like a volleyball while on his horse and in full armor.

And crashing through a wall

[Anomalocaris]

I don't mind the enemy-exclusive weapons like nageyaris or kukris since they just exist to mitigate the stationary nature of bosses, but I'm not fond of Lunge chains at all.

Hell, even when it's perfectly legal on a wyvern rider I hate being Lunged off of a fortress while trying to grind experience.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I HATE that chapter in Conquest that has all of those ninjas with Grisly Wound. It's like get out of here, you're not even the right species for that.

Just think, they could have replaced Grisly Wound with Savage Blow, which would have been potentially even worse!

You do see quite a number of enemies not just with Grisly Wound, but also with the Evenhanded and Odd Shaped skills. I just like to imagine those enemies are NPCs with kitsune or wolfskin blood.

[Rezzy]

You do see quite a number of enemies not just with Grisly Wound, but also with the Evenhanded and Odd Shaped skills. I just like to imagine those enemies are NPCs with kitsune or wolfskin blood.

Has Shura been holding out on us? He does kinda look like a skunk.

[The DanMan]

I'm fine with the enemy-exclusive weapons; my problem (and it's probably my biggest one from a gameplay perspective) is with enemies having skills that they shouldn't have. For example, if normal enemies in Nohr 25 only had skills from their class pool, the map would actually be pretty decent instead of ludicrously challenging on hard and above.

[Thane]

Has Shura been holding out on us? He does kinda look like a skunk.

That is one sexy skunk.