Is Miyamoto a Detriment to Nintendo?

[Ema Skye]

I saw this video on my Facebook wall and was very intrigued by the premise of it. Give it a watch (it's 5 minutes).

Over the years, I feel like I'm slowly getting to the place where I can say "Yes" to the question in the title. It's become increasingly obvious to me that through titles like Skyward Sword, Sticker Star and now Star Fox Zero, that Miyamoto is out of touch with modern game design. His games are still good, don't get me wrong. But his design philosophy involves too many sacrifices for the sake of gimmicks that often results in compromising the gameplay, and gameplay is quite possibly the most important part of a game (if you can't play the game well, it's not fun because you can't do anything. It becomes a chore, not entertainment).

What are your thoughts?

[Maritisa]

It would be less of an issue if they weren't attached to franchises and were instead given to something new and out of the blue, rather than gimping something already solid... y'know?

[Jedi]

In the older days of Nintendo, the fellow developers weren't afraid to say no to Miyamoto, but nowadays there seems to be some odd consensus that all he says is gold.

I personally have good opinions on Star Fox Zero (the more unique control scheme is a very Platinum games type deal), but I agree with Skyward Sword and Sticker Star being hampered, theres also the fact that Twilight Princess's long tutorial was his idea, when originally it wasn't going to be nearly as long, but as it came closer and closer to having to also be a launch game for the Wii, he pushed that there needed to be a long tutorial explaining how the motion controls worked. Instead of letting the game itself teach you the game and mechanics (see almost every Mario game and other such series for the show don't tell mentality).

Edited May 2, 2016 by Jedi

[Etrurian emperor]

I think someone like Miyamoto still has his contributions to make and can serve as a respected face in a time that's not to good for Nintendo.

But I also think he should be kept away from franchise or aspects that really aren't his forte. Sticker Stars would be a good example of him being placed somewhere he doesn't belong. Miyamoto's involvement in sticker star implied a lack of understanding or even a lack of respect for the Paper Mario series so he shouldn't get involved with it. Miyamoto being so anti story is something I always found a weakness in him and his allegedly being angry about Rosalina having a backstory does speak poorly of him, but fair enough, the argument that many use to defend that, saying that a mainline Mario doesn't need a story isn't exactly wrong. Paper Mario on the other hand does need a story and removing it is going to cripple the game.

The video does say that people seem scared to oppose Miyamoto and I think I noticed it with sticker star. In an Iwata ask the developers talked about Miyamoto being ''strict'' on them and that he shot down TTJD successors. It does imply he held them on a tight leash.

Star fox Zero and Sticker star suffer from different things in my eyes so its difficult to me to see them as a pattern of Miyamoto going into decline. With Sticker Star it can be said that he didn't get it and actively tried to steer away Paper Mario from its strengths but from the looks of it Miyamoto did seem to really get Star Fox and played to its strengths. Star Wolf is given more focus, its a big love letter to 64 and there are a lot of popular memes and gags present. He nailed the series, its just the controls where he let people down.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[Water Mage]

He's both good and bad.

For example like Etrurian Emperor said, Rosalina was going to have a much larger backstory, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 would expand it.

Her mother would even appear! Not only that but Rosalina was going to have a connection to Peach.

But Miyamoto decided to cut it, saying it wasn't needed.

And when Miyamoto steps out, the stories are incredible!

Majora's Mask was the first Zelda game that Miyamoto wasn't involved, and look at that game's story! It was amazing!

That being said, we can't deny the man is a genius when it comes to game development.

[Moblin Major General]

Strangely enough, I feel that Miyamoto should meddle in 2nd party development, particularly Intelligent Systems. At this point, anything would be better than Fates's grotesque, poorly executed, and insulting excuse for anything even related to being a story. Miyamoto would reverse many of the design choices IS has made, particularly the Otaku pandering. Even if it compromised a good story, anything would be better than Fates.

[Magical Glace]

It would be less of an issue if they weren't attached to franchises and were instead given to something new and out of the blue, rather than gimping something already solid... y'know?

This

Sticker Star is probably the best example of this. Miyamoto's... Er, suggestion, was received coldly by fans at least in part because it wound up attached to the Paper Mario name. When fans first saw the game waaaay back when it was first announced, they saw a traditional Paper Mario in the same vein as PM1 and TTYD, complete with a Chain Chomp partner. And that ultimately wasn't what they got.

If it didn't have the Paper Mario label (and therefore didn't have certain fan expectations haunting it) it probably would have been slightly better received.

[solrocknroll]

lol no

Sticker Star is my favorite PM

Skyward Sword is my favorite Zelda

Haven't played Zero but I don't even like Star Fox so *shrug*

he also created all three Pikmin games and Pikmin Short Movies. Miyamoto is one of the best developers around and I hope he works on more stuff. Specifically Pikmin. The only misstep I've ever seen him make is removing the storybook from Galaxy 2, but 3D World is great so I can forgive a misstep from six years ago if the most recent game is great.

[Zera]

Actually Sticker Star was received well, with a Metascore of 75 and "generally positive reviews", which just goes to show that professional critics have no idea what they're talking about. Presentation and writing alone are not enough to make a good game - it needs an original aesthetic and deep gameplay, both areas where Sticker Star falters.

In any case, Miyamoto is more of a producer than anything else nowadays. There are plenty of Nintendo games that have almost little influence from him, so I can't say he's a detriment to the company.

[Refa]

No, he makes them money.

Over the years, I feel like I'm slowly getting to the place where I can say "Yes" to the question in the title. It's become increasingly obvious to me that through titles like Skyward Sword, Sticker Star and now Star Fox Zero, that Miyamoto is out of touch with modern game design. His games are still good, don't get me wrong. But his design philosophy involves too many sacrifices for the sake of gimmicks that often results in compromising the gameplay, and gameplay is quite possibly the most important part of a game (if you can't play the game well, it's not fun because you can't do anything. It becomes a chore, not entertainment).

What are your thoughts?

What modern game design is he out of touch with? Because a lack of a compelling narrative (Sticker Star), obnoxious tutorials (Skyward Sword), and compromising gameplay (which happens in like a significant portion of AAA games) are all hallmarks of modern game design! Additionally, none of the gimmicks in any of the titles you mentioned directly compromised the gameplay (I mean, I'm entirely uninterested in all three of those games and their gimmicks have nothing to do with it; actually, Star Fox Zero isn't doing enough new to keep me interested). People didn't like Sticker Star because of its deviation from other Paper Mario games (if they added the sticker gimmick to a traditional Paper Mario game, noone would give a fuck lol), Skyward Sword because the game had a lot of bad game design bogging it down (people themselves had been wanting a Zelda game with motion control for forever), and...I don't know enough about Star Fox Zero to say anything about that, so yeah.

In the older days of Nintendo, the fellow developers weren't afraid to say no to Miyamoto, but nowadays there seems to be some odd consensus that all he says is gold.

I personally have good opinions on Star Fox Zero (the more unique control scheme is a very Platinum games type deal), but I agree with Skyward Sword and Sticker Star being hampered, theres also the fact that Twilight Princess's long tutorial was his idea, when originally it wasn't going to be nearly as long, but as it came closer and closer to having to also be a launch game for the Wii, he pushed that there needed to be a long tutorial explaining how the motion controls worked. Instead of letting the game itself teach you the game and mechanics (see almost every Mario game and other such series for the show don't tell mentality).

When did someone say "no" to Miyamoto? When he wanted Kirby to be yellow? Not exactly the most important decision ever there.

@Bolded: Source?

[solrocknroll]

I also would have to say that I enjoy long tutorials. Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword's opening portions are actually really fun for me because I love the village atmosphere that Ordon and Skyloft have.

[Refa]

There's no reason that long tutorials shouldn't be optional though.

[The DanMan]

Actually Sticker Star was received well, with a Metascore of 75 and "generally positive reviews", which just goes to show that professional critics have no idea what they're talking about. Presentation and writing alone are not enough to make a good game - it needs an original aesthetic and deep gameplay, both areas where Sticker Star falters.

In any case, Miyamoto is more of a producer than anything else nowadays. There are plenty of Nintendo games that have almost little influence from him, so I can't say he's a detriment to the company.

Or that opinions are opinions, and the general consensus was that it's a decently enjoyable game. I'd trust their opinion on how good of a "game" it is over a long-time fan of the series; the opposite is true if I wanted a classic Paper Mario experience.

I have my differences with game critics, but I generally respect them. It's also important to note that they have a limited amount of time between when they get a review copy and when they need to put out a review. So please, don't crap on them because you think differently. Opinions are opinions; gaming critic's opinions just tend to get overblown- or more specifically the number at the end of them.

Anyways, I pretty much agree with the second part of your post: I feel like the "promotion" to Creative Fellow may have been a way kicking him up-stairs so that he has a much broader, comparatively shallower role in the company and can't mess around with any particular project.

[Magical Glace]

Generally, people are free to opinions and this is no exception, don't misunderstand me.

But often critical opinions are based on a different standard than fan opinions. Fans naturally compare things to predecessors far more than critics will from what I've seen. Heck, I'm well aware I am fully guilty of this mindset myself, treating TTYD and FEGBA as standards by which other entries in their series are judged.

This is part of why so many people don't like SS, even if critical reviews say otherwise.

That was my point.

[Etrurian emperor]

Or that opinions are opinions, and the general consensus was that it's a decently enjoyable game. I'd trust their opinion on how good of a "game" it is over a long-time fan of the series; the opposite is true if I wanted a classic Paper Mario experience.

I have my differences with game critics, but I generally respect them. It's also important to note that they have a limited amount of time between when they get a review copy and when they need to put out a review. So please, don't crap on them because you think differently. Opinions are opinions; gaming critic's opinions just tend to get overblown- or more specifically the number at the end of them.

Anyways, I pretty much agree with the second part of your post: I feel like the "promotion" to Creative Fellow may have been a way kicking him up-stairs so that he has a much broader, comparatively shallower role in the company and can't mess around with any particular project.

Professional critics probably didn't ''get'' what was so bad about Sticker star but they didn't need to. I have my issues with Sticker star but I admit it gets hated for what its NOT rather then for what it is. Rightfully so considering its deliberately moving away from its superior predecessors. Be that as it may, reviewing a game for what it IS rather then for what its NOT is probably the more professional way to do the job and I can't fault any reviewer for that.

[Anacybele]

I agree with those that said Miyamoto is both good and bad. The only bad part being that he needs to keep his nose out of things it doesn't belong in, like Paper Mario. And forcing the Rosalina stuff to be cut from SMG2 wasn't cool either. So what if it didn't really NEED it? It doesn't hurt to have it! SMG was still a success with the Rosalina backstory! Yet, SMG2 is still one of my favorite games of all time, plus Luigi was handled much better there than in the first game. So sometimes Miyamoto gets things right.

Skyward Sword isn't hampered by anything, imo... I'll agree that Fi is too hand-holdy (even though I still like her) and the sky felt empty, but those are really the only flaws I think the game has.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Anacybele

[Captain Karnage]

Strangely enough, I feel that Miyamoto should meddle in 2nd party development, particularly Intelligent Systems. At this point, anything would be better than Fates's grotesque, poorly executed, and insulting excuse for anything even related to being a story. Miyamoto would reverse many of the design choices IS has made, particularly the Otaku pandering. Even if it compromised a good story, anything would be better than Fates.

no, just no

he'd probably just cut all of the support conversations, remove all the skills, cut the story, force casual mode on all of us, tone the violence down to an E rating for cartoon violence where everyone hits eachother with rubber mallets, remove all of the good tragic moments because it made the player "feel bad", and somehow replace buttons and the D-pad and impliment gyro controls for moving units

[solrocknroll]

no, just no

he'd probably just cut all of the support conversations, remove all the skills, cut the story, force casual mode on all of us, tone the violence down to an E rating for cartoon violence where everyone hits eachother with rubber mallets, remove all of the good tragic moments because it made the player "feel bad", and somehow replace buttons and the D-pad and impliment gyro controls for moving units

this is a really heavy example of hyperbole

pikmin is pretty violent so that thing about mallets makes no sense. he also wouldn't force casual because again, pikmin gives you many options on how you want the time limit to work because it's based on juice

in addition, gyro controls would certainly not be forced. star fox is literally one game and skyward sword was designed around hitting stuff at precise angles. to bring up pikmin again, pikmin 3 has like 6 different control styles

pikmin also has tons of dialogue and a heavy story.

honestly it's really annoying how bitter people are about miyamoto's treatment of Mario. just because he thinks mario doesn't need a story does not mean he hates all story. it's a bit much still seeing this. and after all, not everything needs a story. animal crossing does not need a story, and mario doesn't really need a heavy one

Edited May 2, 2016 by Ms. Bunch

[Magical Glace]

Tbh I think the reason people don't like the cut plot from SMG(2) was simply the fact it was already done and was only being removed because it was a Mario game

And personally I don't see the issue with most of Skyward Sword, aside from glitchy controls and some annoying handholding? What did Miyamoto interfere with there?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Glaceon Mage

[The DanMan]

Tbh I think the reason people don't like the cut plot from SMG(2) was simply the fact it was already done and was only being removed because it was a Mario game

And personally I don't see the issue with most of Skyward Sword, aside from glitchy controls and some annoying handholding? What did Miyamoto interfere with there?

Skyward Sword was meant to be *drumroll*... a lot more story and lore heavy. Miyamoto had them cut back it.

[Magical Glace]

Skyward Sword was meant to be *drumroll*... a lot more story and lore heavy. Miyamoto had them cut back it.

...I admit, I should have saw that one coming. I guess I didn't because the game is heavier on that than most Zeldas.

It's worth noting that TMC also got hit by it. It was going to be about creating the Master Sword, Miyamoto said no so it was changed to the Four Sword. Then we actually got the Master Sword creation game.

...Go figure.

[Moblin Major General]

no, just no

he'd probably just cut all of the support conversations, remove all the skills, cut the story, force casual mode on all of us, tone the violence down to an E rating for cartoon violence where everyone hits eachother with rubber mallets, remove all of the good tragic moments because it made the player "feel bad", and somehow replace buttons and the D-pad and impliment gyro controls for moving units

This is insulting that you criticize Shiggie to such a disparaging degree. First of all, he actually is capable of character depth, not the bullshit trope characters Kibayashi came up with. Secondly, you tell me that SMBLL is easy, I dare you. Same goes for Twilight Princess and it's violence. And if you don't think the aforementioned Twilight Princess isn't tragic, watch it's ending after playing the game. Frankly, I feel you lost credibility with the Gyro control argument. Those were games that either revolved around it or didn't suffer from having it. Your exaggerating for the sake of hating.

[solrocknroll]

This is insulting that you criticize Shiggie to such a disparaging degree. First of all, he actually is capable of character depth, not the bullshit trope characters Kibayashi came up with. Secondly, you tell me that SMBLL is easy, I dare you. Same goes for Twilight Princess and it's violence. And if you don't think the aforementioned Twilight Princess isn't tragic, watch it's ending after playing the game. Frankly, I feel you lost credibility with the Gyro control argument. Those were games that either revolved around it or didn't suffer from having it. Your exaggerating for the sake of hating.

feel free to be mad or whatever, but kibayashi has made the best characters in the series IMO

Oboro and Orochi in particular are my favorite characters in the series and I adore the trope characters. I think character depth is really pointless and I look more for an entertaining character than anything else. He succeeded in that area

[Pixelman]

This is insulting that you criticize Shiggie to such a disparaging degree. First of all, he actually is capable of character depth, not the bullshit trope characters Kibayashi came up with. Secondly, you tell me that SMBLL is easy, I dare you. Same goes for Twilight Princess and it's violence. And if you don't think the aforementioned Twilight Princess isn't tragic, watch it's ending after playing the game. Frankly, I feel you lost credibility with the Gyro control argument. Those were games that either revolved around it or didn't suffer from having it. Your exaggerating for the sake of hating.

So is this like a joke or something

Or are you serious

[Anacybele]

Wait, Skyward Sword was going to have more story/lore than it already does? Man, that's a bummer. I love the game as is, but really... Miyamoto, stop, please...