Opinion of Soleil?

[maybe]

She's... I put her down as alright because while I don't hate her completely, I don't like her either.

A) She's basically my daughter in most of my playthroughs.

B) Favorite class.

C) Adore her desing.

D) Adore her voice.

E) Good support with Shigure.

F) Good support with Laslow.

G) Her first appearance.

.... but that's about all she had going for her. Reading her supports make me cringe and wish that one day we could get a decent bi character in Fire Emblem. (not just "maybe bi" but flat out bi. I'd enjoy the rep here.) I felt kind of creeped out about my own daughter... well, flirting with me.

this is pretty much exactly how I feel about Soleil

like, literally all of these, even the first one

when I first saw her I really wanted to like her but her supports are just so... bad???

[saisymbolic]

Here is how I feel about Soliel, taken from two other threads.

Her being a girl is irrelevant--it would have been bad if she were a boy, girl, dog, alien or sandwich. The fact that they gave Soliel the same gimmick as her dad in the first place was a red flag. Laslow was pushing it in his supports as much as I like Liam O'Brian's voice him; Selena even calls him out on it. Now, taking that into account, why would the writers continue to make that gimmick the center of several supports? Why would they give that same gimmick to another character? You have characters calling out the behavior, indicating that you, the writer, recognizes that something is up.

Like I said, the sooner IS learns how to write a cast of characters that does not rely on fan-favorites and nostalgia to support them, the better off they will be.

The problem with Soliel is that they based her entire character around a single gimmick. Even then, they handled her character badly. Take a look at how they handled Forrest and then look at how they handled Soliel. One child was handled wonderfully, in my opinion, while the other was handled terribly.

I find it okay that she liked "cute" girls. I honestly thought the fact that she found girls cute was...well, cute. Then, I read some of her supports with the other girls. The one she has with Ophelia is terrible and the one she has with Sophie is just as bad. One has her essentially harassing a girl while the other has the other girl forcing her into competition just to make her stop flirting with her.

I wanted to like Soliel. I still like her, in a way, but they just handled her terribly.

I also disliked how the Awakening characters and offspring are copy-paste of their parents/other selves. I honestly went into the game thinking that they were completely different people that just so happened to look similar to their "predecessors." It was a chance for the writers to refine their characters or give them a different kind of depth, if they decided to change their personality completely. While I'm not too hung up on it, I still have my qualms about how they could have handled them.

Also, I am a hypocrite because I love Odin and Ophelia and don't want them to change.

Edited May 2, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[MagicIsOP]

Here is how I feel about Soleil:

Nobody cares, she's just another shitty Merc who can't even proc Sol

[Jakkun]

Here is how I feel about Soleil:

Nobody cares, she's just another shitty Merc who can't even proc Sol

Gregor > Soliel tbh

[eclipse]

Here is how I feel about Soleil:

Nobody cares, she's just another shitty Merc who can't even proc Sol

That's 'cause she's a hilarious Ninja.

---

I think it's kinda ironic that I see complaints about Soliel being one-dimensional, when there's at least three different characteristics of her running around. I posted about what they were way back on page 1.

She reminds me of Tharja in Awakening - everyone took one characteristic, clung to it, and didn't bother reading the rest. And like Tharja, I kinda feel sorry for her because of that.

[master egg]

My opinion of Soleil....Is just so....MIXED! I like that Nintendo is trying to make a bi character, but it was just awkward. I like her design and I find it funny that she sucks at dancing in a family of successful dancers (and singers, if you do Laslow x Azura), but I feel somewhat sad and disappointed that her romantic supports were cut out because localization. She just wasn't executed well imo.

[Jakkun]

I think it's kinda ironic that I see complaints about Soliel being one-dimensional, when there's at least three different characteristics of her running around. I posted about what they were way back on page 1.

She reminds me of Tharja in Awakening - everyone took one characteristic, clung to it, and didn't bother reading the rest. And like Tharja, I kinda feel sorry for her because of that.

I don't like that her main characteristic is so overblown that other characters suffer (her Mother, Ophelia, JP!Forrest) as a result, but aside from that i'm mostly apathetic to the character itself.

I am aware that both Soliel & Tharja are both capable of being nice people, but it just feels like the main gimmick for them is just a massive amount of fluff that prevents many from seeing the good in them. If that makes any sense.

idk I just think that IS could've done better.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Jakkun

[Augestein]

That's 'cause she's a hilarious Ninja.

---

I think it's kinda ironic that I see complaints about Soliel being one-dimensional, when there's at least three different characteristics of her running around. I posted about what they were way back on page 1.

She reminds me of Tharja in Awakening - everyone took one characteristic, clung to it, and didn't bother reading the rest. And like Tharja, I kinda feel sorry for her because of that.

Well the problem with her is the same problem that Inigo has in Awakening. Any character development that is meant for supports gets ruined by the fact that their "main trait" completely distorts their other traits. Her flirtatious personality overwhelms her whole "keep smiling" and generally sunny disposition. The same thing happened with Inigo. You have supports where he says that he flirts to give himself confidence, he flirts to help people relax, and then you see that he flirts just because... He literally is that obsessed with girls. Sure Inigo has the dancing aspect down, but it's barely played up at all outside of Olivia's support with him. In Fates, it's explained that the woman that told him this to inspire confidence, and while it's kinda hinted at in Lucina x Inigo, but it's one of many supports, and you might not even see if the first time or second time or third time you play.

The problem is that the game never stops reminding you that Inigo likes to flirt with girls. Just like the game never stops reminding that Solei likes to flirt with girls. So it hits a point where it stops feeling natural. And unlike someone like say, Lucina, that has the trait of having no sense of humor, the game doesn't hammer you in the face with this trait constantly. Instead, you get to see her deadpan nature in her supports, but even those conflict with the person dependent on the character. Female Robin comes to mind. Female Robin doesn't seem to like Lucina very much for instance. Because Lucina's overprotective nature is in overdrive towards Robin because of how the story goes. As a matter of fact, we get to see a different side of both characters. FemRobin is kind of grump (in her unique supports, like take a look at her and Aversa versus Male Robin, yeesh), and Lucina is way sort of overprotective to the point of being controlling. Do we see Lucina doing this in every support? No, and thank goodness, because if she did, I'd really, REALLY, hate her.

It's also the for reasons like this that I feel like FemRobin is significantly more grounded than Male Robin. You can actually annoy her. Male Robin is just on "super nice guy" all the time.

[Jakkun]

It's also the for reasons like this that I feel like FemRobin is significantly more grounded than Male Robin. You can actually annoy her. Male Robin is just on "super nice guy" all the time.

"Lucina, I hope I didn't hurt you", versus "How can you protect Chrom if you can't protect yourself"

...yeah, as much as Im averse to F. Robin, I cant deny this. M. Robin is kinda a cinnamon roll.

[eclipse]

I don't like that her main characteristic is so overblown that other characters suffer (her Mother, Ophelia, JP!Forrest) as a result, but aside from that i'm mostly apathetic to the character itself.

I am aware that both Soliel & Tharja are both capable of being nice people, but it just feels like the main gimmick for them is just a massive amount of fluff that prevents many from seeing the good in them. If that makes any sense.

idk I just think that IS could've done better.

Well the problem with her is the same problem that Inigo has in Awakening. Any character development that is meant for supports gets ruined by the fact that their "main trait" completely distorts their other traits. Her flirtatious personality overwhelms her whole "keep smiling" and generally sunny disposition. The same thing happened with Inigo. You have supports where he says that he flirts to give himself confidence, he flirts to help people relax, and then you see that he flirts just because... He literally is that obsessed with girls. Sure Inigo has the dancing aspect down, but it's barely played up at all outside of Olivia's support with him. In Fates, it's explained that the woman that told him this to inspire confidence, and while it's kinda hinted at in Lucina x Inigo, but it's one of many supports, and you might not even see if the first time or second time or third time you play.

The problem is that the game never stops reminding you that Inigo likes to flirt with girls. Just like the game never stops reminding that Solei likes to flirt with girls. So it hits a point where it stops feeling natural. And unlike someone like say, Lucina, that has the trait of having no sense of humor, the game doesn't hammer you in the face with this trait constantly. Instead, you get to see her deadpan nature in her supports, but even those conflict with the person dependent on the character. Female Robin comes to mind. Female Robin doesn't seem to like Lucina very much for instance. Because Lucina's overprotective nature is in overdrive towards Robin because of how the story goes. As a matter of fact, we get to see a different side of both characters. FemRobin is kind of grump (in her unique supports, like take a look at her and Aversa versus Male Robin, yeesh), and Lucina is way sort of overprotective to the point of being controlling. Do we see Lucina doing this in every support? No, and thank goodness, because if she did, I'd really, REALLY, hate her.

It's also the for reasons like this that I feel like FemRobin is significantly more grounded than Male Robin. You can actually annoy her. Male Robin is just on "super nice guy" all the time.

. . .since you both basically said the same thing, I'm gonna do a shared reply.

What if I told you that Soliel's flirting isn't her main gimmick? It looks like that if you're skimming, but if you truly sit down and analyze it. . .her flirting's a symptom of something bigger. I hinted at it in my first post.

Unfortunately, I see a lot of "what", and not a lot of "why is this character acting like this?" I may be giving WAY too much credit to the writers/reading too deeply, but having three different character traits running around in the same character, in a game where the other characters don't have as much going on, is really weird. Like Tharja, she's got a lot going on.

Edited May 3, 2016 by eclipse

[Sunwoo]

"Hate" is a strong word that I am loath to use to describe my feelings towards any fictional character (even my opinions on Kamui and Conquest have cooled to "strongly dislike"), so I'll say that I'm not a fan.

Soleil's supports with her mother and Ophelia are enough for me to say "no" to her. Yeah, she has some nice parts to her, but all that shows is that she isn't actually one-dimensional. I can still dislike her even if she were a well-rounded character (which she is still not). Her A-support with Ophelia isn't enough to make up for that C-B, and she never actually stops hitting on her mother. And that's a big no. I'd be yelling more about her support with Foleo, but that was thankfully changed in the English. I mean, I'm still sour that it EXISTS at all, but I can't hold it against English!Soleil. Doesn't help my opinion of her as a character, though.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Captain Karnage]

I still think that not enough of us have seen this

in short, she likes cute things-girls are cute-end of my disscusion

[December Knight]

What if I told you that Soliel's flirting isn't her main gimmick? It looks like that if you're skimming, but if you truly sit down and analyze it. . .her flirting's a symptom of something bigger. I hinted at it in my first post.

Really? Because I counted how many times Soleil mentions girls compared to, let's say, dancing. And yes, I did read your first post and most of Soleil's supports/lines.

Dancing : 10, support wise. 2, non-support wise.

Girls (in the context of wanting to flirt with them and/or something similar) : 69, support wise. 5, non-support wise.

And that was just what I've been able to find but I can look again if you want. I've read all (that I can find) of Soleil's supports and castle/DLC lines five times in the span of three hours, so please don't say that I just skimmed.

I'm really sorry if I came of as rude or forcing but I do think people mean it when they said they think Soleil is just a gimmick character.

[Also, will I get banned for saying this? I really don't talk to many mods like this.]

[VantagePoint]

I still think that not enough of us have seen this

in short, she likes cute things-girls are cute-end of my disscusion

I mean, I already knew this, I just don't really care, I recall reading a translated line of hers that regurgitates what you said in the last line almost word through word, I think that it was a skinship line.

As for "did the localization improve her character?" I'm going to have to say "no". She still has the same exact problem as localized Inigo/Laslow, with her gimmick, in that it completely encompasses her character, (For Inigo, that seems to be due to the changes he underwent when Awakening was localozed) with very little to point outside of it, except she's creepier than Inigo because IS thinks they can get away with making her creepier than Inigo because she's female, which is true to an extent, but isn't any less unfortunate that it is true on any level.

. . .since you both basically said the same thing, I'm gonna do a shared reply.

What if I told you that Soliel's flirting isn't her main gimmick? It looks like that if you're skimming, but if you truly sit down and analyze it. . .her flirting's a symptom of something bigger. I hinted at it in my first post.

Unfortunately, I see a lot of "what", and not a lot of "why is this character acting like this?" I may be giving WAY too much credit to the writers/reading too deeply, but having three different character traits running around in the same character, in a game where the other characters don't have as much going on, is really weird. Like Tharja, she's got a lot going on.

Inigo/Lazlow from what I've read in the translated script, is a lot more softspoken, sensitive, and shy, and less flirty. Perhaps Soleli is much the same way, but a lot of the traits people list to try and differentiate herself from her father, is shared with her father. Social awkwardness is less noticable in the english script, but nontheless noticable in Inigo's support with Lucina, Inigo's shyness, also noticably played down is alluded to and shown in his support with his mother. So even if Soleli isn't one dimmensional, she's still, more or less, a faithful 1:1 copy of her father, except creepier and female.

Edited May 3, 2016 by VantagePoint

[eclipse]

Really? Because I counted how many times Soleil mentions girls compared to, let's say, dancing. And yes, I did read your first post and most of Soleil's supports/lines.

Dancing : 10, support wise. 2, non-support wise.

Girls (in the context of wanting to flirt with them and/or something similar) : 69, support wise. 5, non-support wise.

And that was just what I've been able to find but I can look again if you want. I've read all (that I can find) of Soleil's supports and castle/DLC lines five times in the span of three hours, so please don't say that I just skimmed.

I'm really sorry if I came of as rude or forcing but I do think people mean it when they said they think Soleil is just a gimmick character.

[Also, will I get banned for saying this? I really don't talk to many mods like this.]

Lessee. . .

- no personal insults/death threats/hate speech/etc.

- nothing's linked, so I don't have to invoke the Forbidden Content/hotlinking rules

- keeping to Rule 0 of the Code of Conduct, which is "don't be a dick to other people" (so stuff like insinuating that casuals are ruining Fire Emblem isn't cool in my books)

As long as you keep it civil, and don't break any of the more obvious rules in the Code of Conduct (like double-posting), you're free to disagree with me, and I won't warn you~!

---

You did a lot of "what is she saying", right down to counting (which I'm impressed with, no sarcasm at all). However, WHY do you think she mentions girls a lot? Or WHY is she so pushy with Ophelia/mom/everyone else? As a bonus, why do you think she undresses in public?

There's one obvious answer, and one answer that Soliel herself mentioned. Like her preference regarding girls/boys, I'm gonna go with what she says first.

[Hunter Nightblood]

So from the reddit survey I got this result:

The other two questions had more or less the same results. This surprised me though. Thoughts?

Edited May 3, 2016 by Hunter Nightblood

[December Knight]

Lessee. . .

- no personal insults/death threats/hate speech/etc.

- nothing's linked, so I don't have to invoke the Forbidden Content/hotlinking rules

- keeping to Rule 0 of the Code of Conduct, which is "don't be a dick to other people" (so stuff like insinuating that casuals are ruining Fire Emblem isn't cool in my books)

As long as you keep it civil, and don't break any of the more obvious rules in the Code of Conduct (like double-posting), you're free to disagree with me, and I won't warn you~!

---

You did a lot of "what is she saying", right down to counting (which I'm impressed with, no sarcasm at all). However, WHY do you think she mentions girls a lot? Or WHY is she so pushy with Ophelia/mom/everyone else? As a bonus, why do you think she undresses in public?

There's one obvious answer, and one answer that Soliel herself mentioned. Like her preference regarding girls/boys, I'm gonna go with what she says first.

Ahh, okay. I was a little worried that what I write could be seen as insinuating you or something similar. Well I can say that I'm impressed that I impressed you, when I didn't mean to. I just wanted to prove that I wasn't skimming Soleil's supports/lines because I didn't want to seem like I was biased or anything (which I may have did, hmm).

Anyway, more on topic. I think she does these things maybe because...

1) Some one (maybe Inigo, her mother, and/or her caretakers) didn't teach her certain things, like to not undress in public, when to read certain social

cues, and such.

2) I [personally] think Soleil mentions girls alot is (in a way) to be similar to Inigo, and/or maybe feel closer to him then it become her own thing. This maybe a little personal but ...I did the some thing whenever I thought about my father (well umm, not the flirting bit but still) after he died.

To be honest, that's all I can really think of when looking at like that. I'm sorry, eclipse.

Edited May 3, 2016 by December Knight

[eclipse]

Ahh, okay. I was a little worried that what I write could be seen as insinuating you or something similar. Well I can say that I'm impressed that I impressed you, when I didn't mean to. I just wanted to prove that I wasn't skimming Soleil's supports/lines because I didn't want to seem like I was biased or anything (which I may have did, hmm).

Anyway, more on topic. I think she does these things maybe because...

1) Some one (maybe Inigo, her mother, and/or her caretakers) didn't teach her certain things, like to not undress in public, when to read certain social

cues, and such.

2) I [personally] think Soleil mentions girls alot is (in a way) to be similar to Inigo, and/or maybe feel closer to him then it become her own thing. This maybe a little personal but ...I did the some thing whenever I thought about my father (well umm, not the flirting bit but still) after he died.

To be honest, that's all I can really think of when looking at like that. I'm sorry, eclipse.

You were willing to try, and that's great. I think it's a much larger step than a lot of what I've seen in this topic.

I'm gonna refer to Soliel/Siegbert's support - namely, the B support. Here's what she says to him:

But I think a really strong woman would be herself, and not be ashamed of her ways. If she feels something, she acts on it, without worrying about anyone else!

That's her philosophy regarding her actions. Next, here's another "random" quote by her:

Really? That's probably the best compliment I've ever gotten.

Now, if she was girl-crazy for the sake of being girl-crazy, you'd imagine that she'd say that because one of the females member complimented her or something, right?

Nothing. It's just strange how smiles work, isn't it? When I see you smiling, it makes me want to smile. Isn't that kind of amazing?

THAT is what Soliel responded to. From Ignatius, who's one of the manlier dudes (A support).

From what I gather, Soliel's actual issue is self-confidence. However, she doesn't want to be seen as weak (which is why I think she freaks out in her support with Dwyer), so she follows her ideal of what she thinks a strong woman is. Thus, she'll act on her feelings immediately, with no thought to how it'll affect others. . .at least, early-on. She grows in her supports, and becomes more aware about the feelings of others. I think the lone exception is her support chain with her mom, of all things. . .but I'm not huge on opposite-parent supports in general (Tharja had the same problem).

As a bonus, here's what she has to say about everyone else (from their A supports, mostly):

Oh, totally! It would help a lot if you'd be there to put the brakes on for me. How sad would it be if I turned a girl away because I was coming on too strong? I need you to put a lid on me before that happens, Future Lord Siegbert!

Aww, I haven't done much. You've got a great smileyou've just got to learn how to use it! And how to hide away that scary, scowly face forever. (Ignatius, since it's not obvious)

No, I'm not! That was amazing! I wish I could sing half as well as you do. You've gotta keep coaching me! (Shigure, non-sibling)

Not many people could be as positive as you about it. Do you think I could be like that, if I practiced? (Kiragi)

Soleil: Ugh! Why did you say that like it's a question?! Eh, but getting mad at you won't fix anything. If I haven't improved, that's on me. Sorry...I just never seem to get any better at this. Even WITH all the time you take to help me practice.

Dwyer: Don't worry about it.

Soleil: But I'm still as bad as I was when we started. Isn't that frustrating for you? You can quit if you want. I'll understand.

Dwyer: I won't deny this is unbearably tedious. But even I wouldn't abandon a friend who's trying her hardest...

Soleil: Thanks, Dwyer. Also, sorry...

Dwyer: No need to apologize to me. You're trying to better yourself. Stick with it, and I'll stick with you.

Soleil: OK! I'll keep at it, then. I really might have given up if you hadn't said something, though! (sorry, this one needed all the context, since it highlights Soliel's main flaw of self-confidence)

Soleil: Urk...! W-well, anyway, thank you for your nice words about my mercenary skills. A kind word from a beautiful girl is the most precious treasure in the world. But now that we've settled that, I'm glad to chat about other things too. (Sophie; the difference between this and the Iggy quote earlier? Soliel received the latter directly, as in "thank you for doing that to me", while the former sounds more like a philosophical quote)

Not as hard as you did. You act cold, but you're really nice. You did so much to help me. Those girls who I thought were only after your candy... I think now they were really attracted to what a good guy you are. So even if I somehow made better candy than you could, it wouldn't help. (Asugi)

It was really kind of you to help me, and we had some good bonding time. Now that I think about it...it's sort of funny. Heeheehee! (Forrest)

Ahaha, I think you're pretty close to ready as it is, Percy. Heehee, I just realized... You're so sweet, you never needed me to give Ace tips on how to be nice. (S support, Percy was busy babbling about Ace in the A support)

Soleil: You know, maybe we're not so different after all.

Nina: We like different things...but we have the same kind of passion.

That's so nice of you! (Mitama, though this is hard because Mitama's doing most of the substance talking)

I really like you, Ophelia. I think you're supercool. You're confident in yourself, and you never flinch or falter in battle. That's why I wanted to sit down and talk with you. That's all I wanted, really... But I was so nervous, all my invitations came out wrong. I'm really sorry. I promise I won't do that to you again. So please...if it's all right with you, I still want to be your friend.

Even if her empathy's kind of crap due to her sticking too hard to her own personal philosophy of what a woman should be, she's touched by how nice people are. . .and also puts herself down as well. All of those point to self-confidence issues.

[December Knight]

You were willing to try, and that's great. I think it's a much larger step than a lot of what I've seen in this topic.

[snip]

Eclipse, I think I understand Soleil a little better now (although a part of me does think you're thinking way to much about this). I will admit that I don't hate Soleil as much as I did before but... I still can't like her. I know that it's wrong but I can't really say why since it's far to personal for me to say on a forum like this.

I'm so sorry eclipse. I wish for this to be my last post on this thread, since I'm running out of things to say and I don't think I'm the best person to talk about Soleil with in all honestly. It almost always becomes personal in one way or other for me. As stupid as that can sound.

[CazTGG]

Setting aside the disaster that is the Japanese version and my extended thoughts for a future video on Fates' localization...i'm not a fan. She's not as bad as Heather since at least Soleil has more layers besides "I like women" and the localized effort is an improvement but she's still portrayed as fairly one-note and one of the worst portrayals of a gay character in video games.

Also...I know people have beaten this horse (and rightfully so) with the Japanese version of M!Kamui & Soleil, but Soleil's support with M!Corrin still has problems, the main one being that the subtext of conversion therapy in the original is no longer therapy: It's text. It's explicitly an exercise with which to address what she considers to be a problem.

I still think that not enough of us have seen this

in short, she likes cute things-girls are cute-end of my disscusion

Utterly rubbish video. Ironically, it misinforms its own viewers in spite of its title.

Edited May 3, 2016 by CazTGG

[Captain Karnage]

before I begin,

Eastern and Western cultures are very different and have things in one that aren't in the other.

Soleil, in Japanese literature is essentially Class S- in this whatever you want to call it, during adolescence young girls will pretend date each other in preparation to date boys when they get older. Not growing out of it is seen as a sign of weakness.

Here's the difference between Heather and Soleil.

Soleil is just really into cute things and likes being around other girls due to how cute they are

While Heather isn't hiding the fact that she's trying to get the girls in the army.

Or

Laslow's lust for women is so strong that he genetically passed it down to his daughter.

[Augestein]

I think you might be over-analyzing a bit Eclipse honestly. I know she has more than 1 trait, but the others are not shown very well. Like Tharja, for instance, Tharja's same sex supports are actually decent-- with Nowi of all people, showing a more favorable side to Tharja, but I don't think 1 or 2 exceptional supports is enough to give her a pass when her low points like Noire's supports for instance. Or Cordelia, she clearly has more to her than liking Chrom, but it just comes up so often that most people ca-- ll Cordelia a 1 note character because it's such an overwhelming trait when it comes up. Gaius for instance in Awakening does this as well, quite a bit of his supports are about candy, and that makes him pretty boring for the most part, but then you have ones like Cordelia, where it's also shown that he just plain doesn't care what people think of him, and Chrom's that shows that he isn't stupid, and is aware of problems in the world. that still doesn't mean that Gaius somehow is a multi dimensional character because for a brief second, you show a little bit of insight on a possibility of better characteristics. The supports are there to do just that, not solidify things about the character like that.

It's not just a matter of having other aspects and then using that as the main form of characterization. It's the frequency at which the negative traits appear as well as the extremity of them that causes this to be a problem. And this comes from someone that really understands the "smile" shtick, which is why I liked her intro chapter so much. There's a reason that Rahjat is liked more than Tharja, because even with them being very similar, Rhajat has the more negative aspects toned down or out and out removed altogether. I mean, you could go on and on about this, because even in Awakening's supports, this was a thing for pretty much all of the characters. They had a main gimmick and then other side traits, and that didn't stop THEM from being considered flat, boring, and one dimensional.

[Etrurian emperor]

before I begin,

Eastern and Western cultures are very different and have things in one that aren't in the other.

Soleil, in Japanese literature is essentially Class S- in this whatever you want to call it, during adolescence young girls will pretend date each other in preparation to date boys when they get older. Not growing out of it is seen as a sign of weakness.

Here's the difference between Heather and Soleil.

Soleil is just really into cute things and likes being around other girls due to how cute they are

While Heather isn't hiding the fact that she's trying to get the girls in the army.

Or

Laslow's lust for women is so strong that he genetically passed it down to his daughter.

But that's probably why Soleil is so controversial in the west. Its lessened because she can't romance as many guys anymore but her design seems based on the thought that her liking other girls is just a fad that she leaves behind when ''growing up''. In the west that's a rather unfortunate implication.

[eclipse]

I think you might be over-analyzing a bit Eclipse honestly. I know she has more than 1 trait, but the others are not shown very well. Like Tharja, for instance, Tharja's same sex supports are actually decent-- with Nowi of all people, showing a more favorable side to Tharja, but I don't think 1 or 2 exceptional supports is enough to give her a pass when her low points like Noire's supports for instance. Or Cordelia, she clearly has more to her than liking Chrom, but it just comes up so often that most people ca-- ll Cordelia a 1 note character because it's such an overwhelming trait when it comes up. Gaius for instance in Awakening does this as well, quite a bit of his supports are about candy, and that makes him pretty boring for the most part, but then you have ones like Cordelia, where it's also shown that he just plain doesn't care what people think of him, and Chrom's that shows that he isn't stupid, and is aware of problems in the world. that still doesn't mean that Gaius somehow is a multi dimensional character because for a brief second, you show a little bit of insight on a possibility of better characteristics. The supports are there to do just that, not solidify things about the character like that.

It's not just a matter of having other aspects and then using that as the main form of characterization. It's the frequency at which the negative traits appear as well as the extremity of them that causes this to be a problem. And this comes from someone that really understands the "smile" shtick, which is why I liked her intro chapter so much. There's a reason that Rahjat is liked more than Tharja, because even with them being very similar, Rhajat has the more negative aspects toned down or out and out removed altogether. I mean, you could go on and on about this, because even in Awakening's supports, this was a thing for pretty much all of the characters. They had a main gimmick and then other side traits, and that didn't stop THEM from being considered flat, boring, and one dimensional.

Tharja is. . .interesting and complicated as all hell. Even if I think dad/Noire support is terrible on the basis that it focuses on Tharja instead of the two of them, it serves a purpose (and it's more than supposed child abuse). The three other people I did a semi-analysis were Cordelia (thank fucking goodness she can never be Lucina's mom), Severa (Cordy's death early in her life was beneficial IMO), and Inigo (who's got the same insecurity problem as Soliel, but handles it worse).

While I don't mind dissenting opinions, you're arguing on principle instead of content, without going into the intent of the content. The writers won't spell everything out for you, unless you're reading fiction aimed at younger children. If you want to dislike a character, I won't stop you, but at least take the time to look into WHY things are the way they are, especially with something like supports (you can thank Interceptor for this lesson).

[Thor Odinson]

While I don't think Soleil is one-note--and I do see a lot of good things with her character, but she also consistently harasses not just Ophelia (although that's the more egregious example) but several other female gen2s as well. If she was just a bit flirty and doesn't constantly harass people who are clearly uncomfortable--including being creepy to her mom, I would like her a lot more.

Like, there is being flirty and even annoyingly so, but doing it to your mom, and also the implications of what she'd do with Ophelia's body is...pretty sketch.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Thor Odinson