The Official Ultima Super Battle Cruise Fortress Topic Deluxe!

[BBM]

Rules (adapted from Fire Emblem RTUs)

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly. You can troll a bit, but no CATERPIE HAS STRING SHOT 10/10.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.

- Votes are made out of 10. You cannot rate a pokemon above 10 or below 0.

- The rating topic will be updated whenever I feel like it, but I will try to allow at least 24 hours for each topic. They will generally be updated at around 10 PM EST.

- A pokemon being inferior relative to another pokemon does not explicitly reduce their rating.

- We are rating ingame performance only, up until the Elite 4 is beaten the first time.

- Evolution lines get condensed, so treat Bulbasaur/Ivysaur/Venasaur all as one pokemon.

Charmander/Charmeleon/Charizard: 7.8

Bulbasaur/Ivysaur/Venasaur: 8.25

Squirtle! Owns Brock and can handle Misty with Bite. Not good against Surge, but Surge is an easy Gym Leader because it's so easy to catch a Diglett and wall him. He faces a type disadvantage against Eirika, but he can Ice Beam to cover it up. Does decently against Koga and Sabrina, and owns Blaine and Giovanni. The E4 also goes pretty well for him, with Bruno being part Rock and Lance's dragons falling to Ice Beam. So other than Surge, he's never really at a loss. 10/10, but he's my least favourite starter, so 9.5/10 after negative bias

Edited June 22, 2012 by BigBangMeteor

[ZemZem]

Kicks Brock's ass, use other good moves against Misty, shouldn't even be fighting Surge, use an Ice move against Erika, do well against Koga and Sabrina, and annihilate Blaine and Giovanni.

Yep. Basically it's only downside is Lt. Surge.

9.5/10

[Darros]

I rate Squirtle a 1.....

out of 1.

So, how do I put this.

ignsoigndsgdsgsdgsYES

Well, that seems reasonable.

Squirtle and its evolution lines is a great choice against most of the game's leaders. Availability isn't a problem, and it can be very helpful in annoying places like caves, where rock pokemon are bound to show up. This is sort of a bonius, but choosing Squirtle also gives Gary a Bulbasaur, which can be made trivial to battle with a good flying pokemon.

Oh yeah rating

10/10

Edited June 16, 2012 by Folgore Blue

[Naglfar]

basically no sandbagging

"oh I can't get torchic, minus eleventy points"

[Darros]

So, Treecko is alright. The stats aren't super fantastic, and the movepool isn't too wonderful, but it's definately workable, and you can't make the complaint that Treecko isn't around too often. Kind of meh for most of the game, but Treecko does have strong points. A lot of the gyms aren't catered to grass types though, unfortunately for Treecko. However, there is always Juan/Wallace, and in the case of Emerald, E4 Wallace.

7/10

[BBM]

To be fair, Zapdos has SE STAB against the final evolution of all three starters, and can be caught after Fuschia.

[ZemZem]

Tallying. Lucina, your vote doesn't count until you revise it in a way I see fit.

[ZemZem]

Rules (adapted from Fire Emblem RTUs)

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly. You can troll a bit, but no WURMPLE HAS STRING SHOT 10/10.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.

- Votes are made out of 10. You cannot rate a pokemon above 10 or below 0.

- The rating topic will be updated whenever I feel like it, but I will try to allow at least 24 hours for each topic. They will generally be updated at around 10 PM CST.

- A pokemon being inferior relative to another pokemon does not explicitly reduce their rating.

- We are rating ingame performance only, up until the Elite 4 is beaten the first time.

- Evolution lines get condensed, so treat Treecko/Grovyle/Sceptile all as one pokemon.

- Pokemon that evolve through trades are accounted for.

- A Pokemon's performance is to be judged by the game they are most prominent in (Example: Zangoose is to be judged by Pokemon Ruby standards.).

Treecko/Grovyle/Sceptile: 8.36

When evolved into Combusken, beats Roxanne almost easily, does well against Brawly and Wattson, okay against Flannery, and does very well against Norman, but Winona (though, her Skarmory is easy to take down) , Tate and Liza, and Wallace/Juan kick its ass. Still, you should have Pokemon that can cover those types.

8/10, +.5 bias for being my first ever Pokemon. 8.5/10

EDIT: I'm stupid, I forgot about her water heavy Hoenn is. I'm taking a full point off.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Folgore Orange

[DarthMikey]

I've always had a soft spot for Squirtle myself. He has the best availability in the game, and he has a generally solid stat spread, with particularly shiny defenses in exchange for somewhat dull Spd. He puts up a good showing against pretty much every gym except for Surge and Erika (and is arguably the best starter to take on Sabrina due to his strong Sp Def; also, I don't think you get an ice TM before Celadon Gym, though you could get Ice Beam prior to it in RBY). His movepool is sort of weak under normal circumstances, but a strong TM spread saves him; Water Pulse will carry him until you get Surf, and he gets Ice Beam eventually to demolish Grass types. Not hard to rate.

9.5/10 (Still not perfect; not the fastest and dies at two gyms)

[DarthMikey]

Best availability, etc. etc. In terms of raw offensive stats it mops the floor with the other two starters, it pretty much mops the floor with them. It has the most rocky gym performance by far; only having a type advantage against Roxanne (if evolved), Norman, and partially Wattson, and making little-to-no contribution at the last three gyms. It lies squarely in the middle with movepool; Ember, Double Kick, Blaze Kick, Slash, and Sky Uppercut are the only things of note it learns naturally, along with Overheat, Brick Break, Flamethrower, and Fire Blast in TMs. The thing is, these are all spread kind of thin; most of these moves come late in its lifespan: Ember, Double Kick, and probably Overheat are the only things it learns before reaching its final evolution stage. It's not Sceptile, Hoenn's official one-hit wonder, and it should still have a pretty good moveset by the time you're staring down the Elite 4. But it doesn't have that much to take advantage of, and that hurts. Let's not forget how Water-heavy this entire region is (the entirety of it is 50% sea!), which brings it down a lot.

Blaziken is still a pretty strong Pokemon, though it takes a while for it to realize its full potential. Its design is pretty cool but it's outmatched by Sceptile's suave demeanor, and in terms of ability it can't even compete with Swampert. Blaziken's just my least favorite Hoenn starter, so I'm taking off of its score for bias.

7.5/10

Edited June 16, 2012 by Cosmic_Harold

[BBM]

Torchic gets a 9.5/10 from me (it rates higher than Treecko by 0.5 because my Treecko vote included bias). Has a rocky endgame, but its early-midgame is almost on par with Mudkip, and its offensive stats are the best of the three starters.

[BBM]

You can get Ice Beam in the Celadon Game Corner if you're willing to either play the games or outright buy the coins.

[Ema Skye]

Blaziken solos are the only way I play RSE now. :>

The hardest part about using this family is getting to the Combusken stage by Roxanne quickly. From there on out the game is easy. It's a solid performance against all of the early-mid game gyms. Winona's Swellow and Altaria are probably the first real obstacle to Blaziken, Tate and Liza roflstomp all of the starters, and Wallace is a little rough. Blaziken absolutely shines against the Elite Four though, hitting everything except for Drake's Altaria and Salamence for at least neutral damage with just its STABs. So in a nutshell, Blaziken only really stumbles at around the last third of the game, but it's awesome performance at the Elite Four is a good enough reason to persevere and continue using it.

10/10, which does include a full point of bias. One of the best starters in series history, right up there with Mudkip, Cyndaquil and Tepig.

[Ema Skye]

For me, it's usually between this dude and Bulbasaur for my starter spot.

I rate Squirtle a 1.....

out of 1.

So, how do I put this.

ignsoigndsgdsgsdgsYES

Well, that seems reasonable.

Squirtle and its evolution lines is a great choice against most of the game's leaders. Availability isn't a problem, and it can be very helpful in annoying places like caves, where rock pokemon are bound to show up. This is sort of a bonius, but choosing Squirtle also gives Gary a Bulbasaur, which can be made trivial to battle with a good flying pokemon.

Oh yeah rating

10/10

Agreeing with everything here. However, I'm going to deduct a point for having the worst ingame stat spread out of the three starters. Offense isn't something to be lacking ingame, especially when you lack speed as well. 85/78 offenses are bad compared to Venusaur's 100/80 and Charizard's 109/100.

So 9/10

Edited June 16, 2012 by Lucina

[Venusaur]

Treecko>>>>>>Bulbasaur.

I just had to, okay. If you want a reasoning, Treecko's terrible until Leaf Blade, Bulba isn't, due to Razor Leaf and Sleep Powder/Leech Seed.

I didn't even know this existed until now, but hey, I might as well throw in my 2 cents.

Ah yes, the Best Starter of Gen I. Great EXP group, and it's very, very effective against the first three gyms, along with Giovanni and Lorelei, and even when it's not great, it can still sleep and Leech Seed. Not to mention it just slaughters Hikers and Fishermen, both very common. Sure, it falters a bit lategame, but thanks to Sleep Powder/Leech Seed, it can help even against such foes as Lance and Koga. Let's see Charmeleon do much against Misty, and Wartortle against Surge

9/10 for normal people, but with bias becomes a 10/10.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Venusaur

[Venusaur]

Squirtle, eh... I haven't really used this much, but I can see why it's good. Does great for the first 2 gyms, and after it gets Water Pulse it really picks up. Those great defenses and Ice TM access really help it be the best at the end, and although it really isn't the greatest stat-wise, still has enough to get the job done and keep on trucking afterwards.

Surge and Erika are both big problems (the latter can be fixed by throwing $80,000 at it), but after those it just keeps going and going and going...

9/10, with -.5 bias due to its raw offensive stats being not that great, kinda stupid reason, but whatever.

[BBM]

Tate+Liza roflstomp all the starters? What? Sceptile can outspeed and OHKO 3/4 of their pokemon, and your other pokemon can help with Xatu. And Swampert, IIRC, 2HKOs, but might be slower, and hits both pokemon at once. Also, hitting for neutral won't help Blaziken against Wallace at the E4 in Emerald. And I can give Sceptile Dragon Claw and it can do the same, while owning Drake, which Blaziken can never do. Not STAB, but so what? Good enough.

Also, solos are a horrible way to properly measure a pokemon's strength. I took something like 20 damage against Flannery in my Treecko solo. Does that mean Treecko normally does well against Flannery? No, it means my Sceptile which I shouldn't even have had at that point) was vastly overleveled. You're overstating Torchic's strengths and understating his weaknesses. But funnily enough, you only gave Torchic a 9 before bias. You can give more than like Mudkip a 10.

Edited June 16, 2012 by BigBangMeteor

[Venusaur]

10/10, which does include a full point of bias. One of the best starters in series history, right up there with Mudkip, Cyndaquil and Tepig.

Tepig was pretty good, but not something I call the best in history, it's a bit too slow for that. Did you mean Infernape?

Anyways, on to Torchic, which was my first Hoenn Pokemon! It hasn't aged the best, thanks to Hoenn being full of water. It's great throughout the first half, and it really shines at Norman... but after that it's rough sailing for a while. Fortunately for it, it happens to do great in the Elite Four, dominating Sidney and Glacia. Too bad it can't learn Shadow Ball...

8/10 in Sapphire and Emerald, 8.5 in Ruby.

[Ema Skye]

For Treecko, Solrock has Flamethrower. Xatu can increase Solrock's Flamethrower damage via Sunny Day, while Claydol and Lunatone can set up Light Screen to weaken Leaf Blade. As for Mudkip users, Solrock again has Sunny Day to weaken Water-type moves, and also has Solarbeam to send Swampert to the graves, while being slower than both of the Meteorites. Oh, and Ground moves are ineffective due to Levitate.

and the comment about the solos was only to show how effective Blaziken is in this game. Treecko sucks until it gets Leaf Blade (Lv.29). Torchic sucks until it evolves (Lv.16).

@Venusaur: Yeah, that's the dude. Haven't played Sinnoh is so long.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Lucina

[Ema Skye]

Also, what's the ruling on trading?

[BBM]

Also, what's the ruling on trading?

Ehh... I don't know. I'd say no trading myself.

[Shadow Mir]

Ehhh, what's the stance on trade evolutions going to be?

Edited June 16, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[BBM]

Xatu does not have Light Screen or Flamethrower. Xatu is the only pokemon getting a chance to use any moves at all, because Sceptile outspeeds and OHKOs everything else.

And a Treecko solo has trouble against Brawly. After that, when it's going through it's worst period, from level 20 to 29, it's overleveled enough that it doesn't matter. Then Leaf Blade and GG.

[Ema Skye]

Xatu has Sunny Day, which will increase Flamethrower's damage. Leaf Blade is still only a 70BP move, and with two Pokes having Light Screen alongside their solid special defense stats (they aren't Geodudes; Lunatone has 85 base Sp.D and Claydol has freaking 120).

And what's so special about Lv.20? Treecko's strongest moves it gets via level up are as strong as Quick Attack, which is a whopping 40BP. Relying on Bullet Seed for offense is just plain terrible due to its unreliability (15 BP a hit, 45 on average, barely stronger than Quick Attack).

Edited June 16, 2012 by Lucina

[BBM]

Xatu has Sunny Day, which will increase Flamethrower's damage. Leaf Blade is still only a 70BP move, and with two Pokes having Light Screen alongside their solid special defense stats (they aren't Geodudes; Lunatone has 85 base Sp.D and Claydol has freaking 120).

210 power after SE and STAB off a 105 base Sp. Atk is good enough for a OHKO. Seriously, have you used a level 40ish Sceptile at Tate+Liza? He wipes the floor there.

And what's so special about Lv.20? Treecko's strongest moves it gets via level up are as strong as Quick Attack, which is a whopping 40BP. Relying on Bullet Seed for offense is just plain terrible due to its unreliability (15 BP a hit, 45 on average, barely stronger than Quick Attack).

Like I said, level 20 to 29 is its weakest period. Then, Leaf Blade and GG.

Edited June 16, 2012 by BigBangMeteor