University student issues regarding courses

[Rapier]

I'm aware that there are people on SF who have gone through an university course, and some of these people also work or have worked with research, as far as I've read. Receiving some input could be useful for my dilemma.

Basically, this is my third semester on Law and I've been tired of it since the second semester. I have difficulties saying exactly what I dislike (but I know what I dislike, it's putting into words that troubles me), but for me the technicities and complexity of it (by that, I am not speaking about how hard the course is, but about how extensive, full of details and pedantic the content itself is) are the main things I have incompatibilities with. I have little to no interest on it and my performance is almost rock bottom. I also don't care enough to force myself into it. But I also don't want to disappoint everyone who is betting on me.

I'm not going to continue merely because of the prospect of "getting a good job", which is not exactly true. Explanation:

Over here, Law is an area that became inflated because it's full of mediocre people (as in, average professionals) who had the same idea. So you have a lot of lawyers who are mediocre at their field, and this lowers their overall income and value. Studying Law for getting a good job is only a "good" option when one attempts to work on a public office, because here public officers earn much higher salaries and usually have a less turbulent workplace, among other privileges. I could do that, but I don't think it is worth going through university hell to study for one of their exams and earn (at best) a public office after long periods of intensive studying of a discipline that I do not like.

I don't have many ideas for alternatives. The only other course that I can think of, that I've researched about and that I seem to like, is psychology, but I'm afraid of going through the same problem and sinking myself even further in debt. Also, if I were to study psychology, I'd probably choose to work as a researcher instead of as a therapist or someone who is actively dealing with people and helping their personal, subjective problems. My interest on psychology lies within how the mind works, how people act and such, and not with helping people get over their issues.

This is where members who work with research could fill me in as to how the routine of a researcher is, especially if they work with psychology. I am not sure if methodical, bureaucratic and rigorous technical procedures are things I'll be able to work with. This is where knowing others' experience and input could help me.

Another alternative would be to find a job. It's hardly going to work unless I try to take an exam for a public office. My country is going through a financial crisis, I have zero experience and I'm kind of a doofus. I could try taking the least hellish exam and going to work on any office just so I can earn an average sallary to cover for my expenses, then I could try for psychology/another course or never again study (working will probably make me too tired to focus on anything else, but who knows). Doesn't sound so bad, except for the fact that they're not so frequent and my country ran out of money, which means those exams will take too long to happen. Also, again, studying "for anything" is bad, I was done with this bullshit on school.

--

Anyway, has someone gone through the same issues? If yes, feel free to speak about it and give me your input. I appreciate suggestions and counsel and I'll consider them. My bad for the lenghty post and bad if not confusing wording, english is not my main language and my mind is that clouded.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Rapier

[Rezzy]

As someone who's been through it all, (I'm a medical doctor, so it's not exactly the same, but I've been through tons of school.) my advice would be to consider what it is you want to do. It sounds like the tedium of law is unappealing to you. It's harsh, but any academic field is going to be 90% paperwork and writing papers to 10% actual research work. So, if this aspect of Law is not a good fit for you, other academic fields likely aren't going to be either.

Is your main goal to have a job? You could try going to nursing school or vocational school, where you have much more hands-on work without as much paperwork. (Nursing still has a bit, but not as much as an academic.) It will be a fraction of the debt and will be much easier to find a job to pay the bills.

Psych majors often have a hard time finding jobs, unless you get a PhD, you'll have a hard time finding work, and even then, it's competitive. None of my friends who majored in psychology in undergrad have jobs as psychologists right now.

I honestly think that unless you know what you want to do going into college, it just isn't worth the thousands of dollars of debt you're going to incur. I think it's sad that society today makes it seem like everybody should go to college, then majoring in something that has no prospects of getting a job and being in debt for decades of their lives.

A final alternative would be to try to slog through it and continue with law. I had days over the past decade, where I cried and seriously questioned my life choices. "Was becoming a doctor the right choice? I'm almost 30 and I feel like I've put my life on hold, when I could have had a house and been living the dream by now." As I'm finally reaching the end of it all, I'm glad I toughed it out, but I'm not sure if I would do it all over again, given the choice.

Which country are you from? I'm from the USA, but it's probably similar in your area.

[Lord Raven]

This is where members who work with research could fill me in as to how the routine of a researcher is, especially if they work with psychology. I am not sure if methodical, bureaucratic and rigorous technical procedures are things I'll be able to work with. This is where knowing others' experience and input could help me.

Balcerzak is more qualified than me to answer, but I'm in physics and it's a lot of "tinkering with shit until it works," "wrestling with shitty code," "wrestling with shitty data," and "my research advisers is always lost." But when you get a result, oh man it's the best thing ever.

Not an easy thing to do or get into or stick with, but I'm not going to pretend that it's unfulfilling.

(by that, I am not speaking about how hard the course is, but about how extensive, full of details and pedantic the content itself is)

Expand upon this with an example? Because most courses go into a lot of detail in undergrad... and it gets even worse in professional school.

[Ema Skye]

I have little to no interest on it and my performance is almost rock bottom. I also don't care enough to force myself into it. But I also don't want to disappoint everyone who is betting on me.

If your performance in the Law program is low, then you'll probably end up disappointing them. Forcing yourself to complete the program just to make someone else happy isn't healthy for you. University is a choice you make to benefit yourself.

What might be worthwhile is taking a break from school for a bit to re-evaluating your situation. University is job training for a fair chunk of your life, if not all of it, and it's a steep investment so you need to make sure that you aren't wasting money with this (or will waste as little cash as possible). This is especially true if you're wanting to go into research. What are you hoping to get out of university? If it's just to get a job, what job will university let you get that you can't otherwise get?

[Phoenix Wright]

do things for you. it's your life, brah. listen to the doctor! :p

[Water Mage]

As someone who is studying law in the same country as you, I can why you would complain.

I particulary enjoy law so the downsides of it don't bother me much, but if it's becoming something you don't enjoy, don't force yourself to do it.

Because I go to my college's psychology building for some classes, I sometimes talk to some of the students there. And they all told me the same advice:

"If you are planning to go to psychology, I recommend making a lot of connections. People seek psychologists through the recommendation of other doctors. Even if it is just for research."

Best of luck to you, especially now that things are harder in our country.

You live in Brasilia, right? Things there must be crazy right now.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Water Mage

[peener weener]

For psych, getting into research means basically trying to get into a public institution grad research program and getting into a grad research program means you have to get accepted into one. You'll have to go to a school with a strong academic research background, graduate with a good average, and also get into research teams as an undergrad to rack up experience. You need to be on good terms with professors and make lots of contacts in universty while also keeping high marks.

To the person above who said getting a job in psych is difficult: you need to understand that in latin america and brazil, job possibilities are very different. It's not very difficult to become a therapist or get hired by a workplace or something, because getting therapy or counseling isn't quite as stigmatized here as i understand it is in the us. Of course, op doesnt want any of that, and getting into research definitely requires dedication and hard work but is possible.

Edited May 14, 2016 by fuccboi

[Rapier]

@Rezzy

I'm not exactly bored simply from paperwork. I'm bored because I do not find appealing at all to memorize thousands of norms and regulations and know about their every single small detail. That's like an alternative universe where YGO cards did not have their effects on the card front and you had to remember every effect, and each of them are in thick, long books that would make anyone but the most avid reader cry (if that example is too ambiguous, I can try to come up with a better one, perhaps a D&D rulebook one). Actually, if it was that straigthforward, it wouldn't be so bad. The problem arises when there are many, many exceptions, minute details and addenduns for the norms. I'm really not into this sort of thing.

My main goal is not merely having a job. It is not the end for me, but the means for an end. I want to preferably do something that is of my liking, merging both my interests with the satisfaction of my needs, even if it means going through rough times until I finally manage to reach stability. I thought Law conciliated both things, but I'm disliking it more and more and I've seen that it is not such a fulfilling career until much later on. I'd have gone for psychology first but I really hated its work area (and I still hate the "you're obliged to dedicate your studies and work to help people's minds" part of it. I don't want to deal with people's subjectivity, at least not directly. I just like to know how the mind works).

I had to google about vocational schools because we use different terms for it (we call them technical courses here). Well, they're not exactly a bad idea, but they're still relatively expensive and I can't think of any area that I want to "specialize" myself at. I also suck at manual labors, and I find it better to do mental work instead, where I have a better and more productive time at. It's still a remote choice, though.

I understand the underlying reason for going to college, but I have to agree with you. Fluff:

Not everyone has the affinity for sciences, but now we think that everyone has to, and this leads to a lot of frustration and career stagnation due to the amount of people who are mediocre because they had to go through something they do not like or have no affinity for. Some people are meant for the academical pursuits, others could be better at manual labors or specializing themselves through a career-focused program, or even become successful entrepreneurs. It's a paradigm that deserves to be thrown in the trash can.

Yeah, I've thought about continuing and toughing myself up for it, but many issues arise from this path. Because I am doing something that I have little affinity for, I'm going to have a harder time learning and studying, which is only going to foment my huge demotivation and keep me in low spirits. If somehow I get to survive those three years, I'll still have to pass the bar exam because I won't be able to do anything else until then. It's a hard exam about everything that was seen in the law course and, if you fail, you'll have to wait for the next year to try again. If somehow I pass it, I'll have the choice of going for a public office or working as a private lawyer. Because there are many private lawyers and I'd just be a greenhorn among many other ordinary greenhorns, chances are I'll be on the red for at least a decade before I reap the fruits of my effort (this is what my teachers say about lawyers that choose to be liberal professionals). By that time, I'll ask if it was worth going through all that hell, and I'm inclined to think that the answer will be no.

I'm brazilian. Also, I apologize for the lenghty response. I didn't know how to make it any shorter.

For psych, getting into research means basically trying to get into a public institution grad research program and getting into a grad research program means you have to get accepted into one. You'll have to go to a school with a strong academic research background, graduate with a good average, and also get into research teams as an undergrad to rack up experience. You need to be on good terms with professors and make lots of contacts in universty while also keeping high marks.

To the person above who said getting a job in psych is difficult: you need to understand that in latin america and brazil, job possibilities are very different. It's not very difficult to become a therapist or get hired by a workplace or something, because getting therapy or counseling isn't quite as stigmatized here as i understand it is in the us. Of course, op doesnt want any of that, and getting into research definitely requires dedication and hard work but is possible.

That looks tough, but doable, I guess. I don't know if I can be that kind of student who is dedicated and with good grades, and networking is something I definitely need to learn, but I guess this is something I'm willing to do.

I've spoken with a friend of mine who studies psychology. He told me that there are increasing work areas of psych here and that psychs are highly sought by companies. When I told him about research, he told me it is very bureaucratic and demotivating here in Brazil. After speaking with someone who worked with research for years (she's also the head of the psychology course of my university), I was told it is quite the contrary and that there are plenty of opportunities to work with research. I should trust her instead, but what I've seen on the news once is that researchers are leaving Brazil and going to work on other countries because here its work area is too bureaucratic and demotivating. Seems normal for me to get a cold feet about it.

As someone who is studying law in the same country as you, I can why you would complain.
I particulary enjoy law so the downsides of it don't bother me much, but if it's becoming something you don't enjoy, don't force yourself to do it.

Because I go to my college's psychology building for some classes, I sometimes talk to some of the students there. And they all told me the same advice:
"If you are planning to go to psychology, I recommend making a lot of connections. People seek psychologists through the recommendation of other doctors. Even if it is just for research."

Best of luck to you, especially now that things are harder in our country.
You live in Brasilia, right? Things there must be crazy right now.

What do you enjoy in law? Just out of curiousity. Also, if I do change courses to psychology, I'll keep that in mind, thanks. It reminds me of when I was taking an obligatory philosophy of law course and I asked my teacher for book recommendations (he even loaned me two books) and philosophical questions about morals and that sort of thing. I think I can do the same with another teacher of an area that I like, hopefully not being as silly and dumb as I was. Also, no, I don't intend to course philosophy.

Yes, I live in Brasília. Things are crazy, but luckily I live far from the big center. :V Some colleagues can't even get to college on time because there are protesters blocking streets and they're stuck on traffic jams. I'm just glad UNE militants aren't going into classrooms to make political proselitism as they were doing a month ago. Because I study in a private college, there are fewer Dilma sympathizants and radical left-wingers as compared to public colleges where they're a noisy majority, but they do show up sometimes. Things are relatively calm on my college and where I live, at least, and I'm really glad for it.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Rapier

[Water Mage]

I enjoy reading the papers of the cases, granted some are very long, boring and tiresome to read, but there are others that are fascinating.

I also enjoy seeing my boss at work in court.

Let's just say that the Ace Attorney games might be more accurate than you think.

There are those that are boring however.

Glad to see things are mostly calm around you.

There aren't many protesters in college as well, but when there are, they are incredibly loud.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Water Mage

[Rapier]

To be honest, what attracted me and what still attracts me in law is acting on court, thinking about ways to address your case and arguing for a cause. I haven't seen a session yet, but I plan to soon (I was too lazy to do that, but now it is part of a college work that I need to do, so I have no choice). It is the technical part of it and the gargantuan amount of norms and their minute details, exceptions and addenduns that make me want to quit. I abhor this sort of thing, no matter how appealing working with law seems (also, I can't really escape from its technical part and go for practice). I mean, if it were hard and dealt with hard concepts, it'd be ok, but it's more about memorization and having a lot of patience.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Rapier

[Rezzy]

One point of caution is that most fields will have many minor details that you will need to be familiar with. Law is probably the worst of these, but it applies to just about everything as you learn more about it.

Many early courses in a subject will deal in broad strokes, but as you reach the upper levels of classes, it goes into a lot more depth.

Chemistry for instance will often start you with "General Chemistry" which is mostly the basics, which is still enough to fill a semester or two. Then you may onto Organic, Biochemistry, Physical Chemistry, etc, which focus on aspects of the subject that General Chemistry may touch upon, but here, you're expected to pound this stuff into your memory and master it. So, you may think you enjoy the subject in the early classes, but start to lose stream after you tackle the tougher classes.

[Original Alear]

My brother is a moderately successful (assistant DA) lawyer in the Texas area. I think Water Mage would probably be more helpful since he's in Brazil, but if you are seeking any advice related to law, let me know and I might be able to ask him a few questions. He has held his fair share of different jobs in the field both in law school and out of it, so he might have some advice (though again, different country) I don't have much advice on things myself, as I graduated from college but didn't move into any sort of related career, but good luck.

Vocational schools do not necessarily involve manual labor. I mean, I'm not sure if Brazil has some equivalent, but in the US you can train to be a paralegal. While it's not as lucrative, the schooling is not as difficult. It may still be bureaucratic minutiae, but it may not be as rigorous in terms of the excess of details you have to learn. I suspect there are other possibilities as well. Do you have problems with manual labor in general (like, poor hand eye coordination or clumsiness?) or are you just concerned about doing heavy labor?

If you're not happy with what you're currently studying, I wouldn't just limit my consideration to your current pick and law. I'd spend some time researching a wide range of possible careers if you haven't already. Not saying give up immediately, but seems like it's worth thinking over other possibilities.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Togami Byakuga

[Rapier]

I remember there was talk about letting people work as paralegals in Brazil, but that was in 2013, and apparently the idea was short-lived. On any case, even if it were approved, non-licensed law graduates could only work as paralegals for three years, IIRC.

Also, I was told the same thing regarding other picks. I'm trying to find a vocational test (that is not just bs from the internet) on my college, because they apparently do that and I was told to ask again tomorrow. I need to choose quick, because I'm only on college because of a government program that allowed me to (there's no way I can pay 1400 bucks per month), and it imposes a limit of 16 months to change a course. From what they've told me, I only have this semester. My college also restricts people from changing courses after the third semester (I can finish the third semester but I can't change if I start the fourth), but it is not like I'd want to after wasting so much time and money.

About manual labor, I'm not just clumsy and physically weak but I'm also asthmatic. It's been a long time since I've had such a health problem (usually comes when seasons change or when the weather has a big change from night to day), but it is better not to work with strenuous manual labor jobs. Other manual jobs are ok, but I prefer to put them as remote choices since I have poor coordination skills.

I have a plan of action. I've spoken with several teachers and I've spoken with a few professionals who work with psychology + what I researched on the internet. The problem is deciding between taking a leap or staying where I am. I'll do the vocational test and see what new info it puts into the table, but I guess there is little more to discover and I'll need to choose very soon.

I'm trying to analyze both (or more, depending on the vocational test) choices and pick the best or the least terrible one. I don't see many pros for staying on the current course, except for the time and money already wasted on it. One of the biggest reasons for entering law school, its work area, also became doubtful for me. I like the idea of elaborating petitions and arguing for a cause, but I'd need to know the underlying minute details about the norms and the gargantuan laws containing them. I don't know if it is because I'm not really good at studying/never really dedicated into studying anything in my life/only read the first 50-100 pages of a few law books, if it is because I don't find it appealing at all, or both (I'd wager it is both, and that I have little affinity for its science).

Then again, the stakes become much higher on the other choices. If I go through the same thing again (see that it wasn't for me, that kind of stuff), it will be an even greater waste of time, energy and money. And I don't know if I'll like the psych course. I like reading about psych and I find it fascinating to study about the mind, human behavior and this kind of thing, but it is also a very recent scientific field and it only became "credible" on the 50s (from what I've read on a book), when experimental psychology started using the scientific method and not just intuitive and arbitrary methods for studies. I'm also skeptical about its work area and I think it'll be hard to enter any research field. As I've said, helping other people's issues and all is something I really dislike.

Many early courses in a subject will deal in broad strokes, but as you reach the upper levels of classes, it goes into a lot more depth.

Law is quite the opposite, as far as I've seen. Yes, it goes into a lot more depth as I reach the upper levels, but its first levels are a clusterfuck of information and its upper levels are more straightforward. For example, the first semester of Penal Law was an info dump of its prevailing theories, jurisprudence etc., but Penal Law II only talks about certain special crimes that have a very straightforward description on our penal code. Same on Civic/Private Law.

I don't mind dealing with hard content, I mind having to memorize a lot of things and being thrown an infodump at.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Rapier

[Rapier]

bump, this time for something more direct and clear

can anyone fill me in about how the work of a researcher is? If they are forced to follow some rigid method or norms to fill papers, if they are forced to go through field research or if they stay shut in rooms, if it is a hard and selective area of work where only the really dedicated people can work on, if it is a bureaucratic area, things like that.

because if working with psychology means I'm forced to deal directly with people's subjectivity and listen to their problems and emotional complaints, and research isn't a viable option to escape from this, I suppose staying on place would be best. But I'll think more about it regardless, from the new input I receive.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Rapier

[peener weener]

bump, this time for something more direct and clear

can anyone fill me in about how the work of a researcher is? If they are forced to follow some rigid method or norms to fill papers, if they are forced to go through field research or if they stay shut in rooms, if it is a hard and selective area of work where only the really dedicated people can work on, if it is a bureaucratic area, things like that.

because if working with psychology means I'm forced to deal directly with people's subjectivity and listen to their problems and emotional complaints, and research isn't a viable option to escape from this, I suppose staying on place would be best. But I'll think more about it regardless, from the new input I receive.

meant to reply to this a while back but forgot to

it sounds like this is a question to drop on an actual researcher, so it might do you good to track down your university's psychology department and ask around for people with experience in the area. from my understanding, research can definitely be fairly bureaucratic: your objective, like it or not, is to get published, and there's a lot of baggage that comes with that. there are many cool essays written about it. i'd recommend pablo kreimer's work about scientific papers and scientists cause it's an interesting read and a bit of a look at the less discussed human aspects of science but i can't vouch for it having been released in portuguese, though you could probably track it down.

for the other things: the subject of research wildly varies, especially in psychology. you might get to deal with people personally in longitudinal studies about specific cases or the like or you might not even interact with people and work as the observer in an experiment, or you might just present people with a task and work the results. from what you're saying, it sounds like you might be interested in neuroscience (shameless major plug), so i recommend doing some research about it. a piece of advice though, you'll be fairly hard pressed as a psychologist who does not deal with people. it's one of those risks of the job, don't you think?

Edited May 26, 2016 by fuccboi

[Rapier]

a piece of advice though, you'll be fairly hard pressed as a psychologist who does not deal with people. it's one of those risks of the job, don't you think?

Yes, that is the problem. I don't want to work as someone who has to listen to a client's story about their troubles, emotions, feelings and help them with advice. It seems that regardless of which area I choose on psychology (except research), I'd be interacting with people and directly helping them with their mind issues and personal troubles. I'm searching for anything that says I am wrong, but it seems this is the truth.

also, I don't think I am cut for research. It seems too bureaucratic and the kind of thing that scholarly, methodical, cult people do. I'm too free spirited for such a thing. With that said, I'll take a look at the essay you recommended (I can read english, so it shouldn't be a problem).

Edited May 27, 2016 by Rapier

[peener weener]

it's in spanish