Patch 1.1.6 (Smash 4) Now Out!

[Jedi]

Sheesh.

Honestly, I wish they'd released her in a state in-between what they released her in and where she is now. She'd still be decent, but not a crazy "make on wrong move and you die" type of character; subsequently, fewer people would be calling for a nerf, and this patch likely wouldn't have happened.

How can you know that, we still have people complaining about like literally every character at various levels because of certain things be they good or bad, whiners are always going to exist.

Smash 4 remains probably the most balanced smash game, although there are still some issues, we at least have a somewhat clear high echelon with a set of characters who can challenge particular ones, depending on character/match up/player etc.

[The DanMan]

How can you know that, we still have people complaining about like literally every character at various levels because of certain things be they good or bad, whiners are always going to exist.

Smash 4 remains probably the most balanced smash game, although there are still some issues, we at least have a somewhat clear high echelon with a set of characters who can challenge particular ones, depending on character/match up/player etc.

Yes, people will always whine to a certain extent, but I believe that if she had made less of an impact from the start then there would've been less reason to nerf her. That's just my reasoning here; nobody (at least in comparison to Bayonetta) was really complaining about Lucas or Roy, were they?

Edited May 20, 2016 by The DanMan

[solrocknroll]

this patch is awful. I don't play online and it only affects one character so I'm actually just not going to download it. it takes up a ton of space that I don't really have on both systems. Good riddance to my online I guess.

[shadowofchaos]

this patch is awful. I don't play online and it only affects one character so I'm actually just not going to download it. it takes up a ton of space that I don't really have on both systems. Good riddance to my online I guess.

The thing is, unless you're blocking updates via DNS, router, or just simply have your Internet inactive, the Wii U WILL download is without your knowledge or approval.

[The DanMan]

The thing is, unless you're blocking updates via DNS, router, or just simply have your Internet inactive, the Wii U WILL download is without your knowledge or approval.

On 3DS, however, you have to manually do it. I remember not downloading last patch until I'd cleared Classic 9.0 with Corrin's ridiculous counter.

[Jave]

From what I've heard she's now like unable to do stuff she was able to even do in her trailer. Her trailer is now an outright lie.

This is what bothers me the most. I was watching the original Bayo reveal and in the tutorial you see her pulling these combos that now seem impossible given the changes. Anyone who watches the Bayo trailer and then buys her based on that, is going to be feel cheated, if not outright ripped off.

[Knife]

Yes, people will always whine to a certain extent, but I believe that if she had made less of an impact from the start then there would've been less reason to nerf her. That's just my reasoning here; nobody (at least in comparison to Bayonetta) was really complaining about Lucas or Roy, were they?

No one is gonna complain about mid and low tier characters. People did cry about Roy's fsmash being too strong in the beginning but his flaws were found out fairly quickly and it stopped.

Also yeah, they kinda gutted Bayo. You can get out of pretty much every special combo with light SDI. Dtilt reduced range hurts her best grounded combo starter. DABK is almost completely useless as a move.

The best tool about her now is Witch Time to smash attack, which is sad. I think she will fall to mid tier now.

[The DanMan]

No one is gonna complain about mid and low tier characters. People did cry about Roy's fsmash being too strong in the beginning but his flaws were found out fairly quickly and it stopped.

Also yeah, they kinda gutted Bayo. You can get out of pretty much every special combo with light SDI. Dtilt reduced range hurts her best grounded combo starter. DABK is almost completely useless as a move.

The best tool about her now is Witch Time to smash attack, which is sad. I think she will fall to mid tier now.

Ergo, my point. If she hadn't launched as ridiculous as she was, the patch probably wouldn't have happened. She wouldn't have needed to be as bad as she is now; look at Ryu, for instance. He's considered a pretty good character who also has clearly-defined and exploitable weaknesses; I don't remember any real complaints about him.

Bayonetta at launch just ended up being too over-the-top.

Edited May 20, 2016 by The DanMan

[Jave]

Ergo, my point. If she hadn't launched as ridiculous as she was, the patch probably wouldn't have happened. She wouldn't have needed to be as bad as she is now; look at Ryu, for instance. He's considered a pretty good character who also has clearly-defined and exploitable weaknesses; I don't remember any real complaints about him.

Bayonetta at launch just ended up being too over-the-top.

I honestly felt the reactions towards Bayo were far more over-the-top than the character herself, mainly because most people just jumped into the "Nerf her!" bandwagon instead of trying to develop strategies to fight against her. I remember some people calling her Pay-2-Win, and the tournament scene in... Spain, I think it was?, just banned her entirely.

Once some of the better players actually started working around the character, things cooled down a bit, and some people even agreed that she wasn't the absolute best character, but that barely even matters anymore since Bayo players now have to nearly start from scratch, if they don't choose to stop using the character completely.

[The DanMan]

I honestly felt the reactions towards Bayo were far more over-the-top than the character herself, mainly because most people just jumped into the "Nerf her!" bandwagon instead of trying to develop strategies to fight against her. I remember some people calling her Pay-2-Win, and the tournament scene in... Spain, I think it was?, just banned her entirely.

Once some of the better players actually started working around the character, things cooled down a bit, and some people even agreed that she wasn't the absolute best character, but that barely even matters anymore since Bayo players now have to nearly start from scratch, if they don't choose to stop using the character completely.

First of all, the scene in Spain didn't ban her; they were in talks of banning her (headlines mis-reported it), and players there were as split as they were here.

Players did find chinks in her armor, but it ended up being too little, too late; the whole situation was pretty much the perfect storm of negativity. You had a character who many people openly scoffed at whenever anybody tried to talk about including her in Smash in a serious capacity "win" the ballot (the dubious wording has me think the Ballot was a suggestion box in the first place, but that's neither here nor there); on top of that, the first gameplay shown of her made her look stupidly good. Things then went critical when first impressions pegged her as being as good as she looked.

It was, in many ways, the perfect ball of toxicity that formed around her; I don't think there has been a single character who was met with such negativity in series history. But that's just my analysis on things.

[Refa]

Smash 4 remains probably the most balanced smash game, although there are still some issues, we at least have a somewhat clear high echelon with a set of characters who can challenge particular ones, depending on character/match up/player etc.

Yeah, there's definitely a larger portion of the cast that can be considered competitively viable compared to previous Smash games. Unfortunately, both of those games had Marth as one of those viable members and Smash 4 does not (this patch was their chance to fix that mistake!!!!!!!!!). :<

[Jave]

First of all, the scene in Spain didn't ban her; they were in talks of banning her (headlines mis-reported it), and players there were as split as they were here.

Players did find chinks in her armor, but it ended up being too little, too late; the whole situation was pretty much the perfect storm of negativity. You had a character who many people openly scoffed at whenever anybody tried to talk about including her in Smash in a serious capacity "win" the ballot (the dubious wording has me think the Ballot was a suggestion box in the first place, but that's neither here nor there); on top of that, the first gameplay shown of her made her look stupidly good. Things then went critical when first impressions pegged her as being as good as she looked.

It was, in many ways, the perfect ball of toxicity that formed around her; I don't think there has been a single character who was met with such negativity in series history. But that's just my analysis on things.

You obviously weren't around when the Melee roster leaked. Man, was THAT an ugly sight.

[Jedi]

No one is gonna complain about mid and low tier characters. People did cry about Roy's fsmash being too strong in the beginning but his flaws were found out fairly quickly and it stopped.

Also yeah, they kinda gutted Bayo. You can get out of pretty much every special combo with light SDI. Dtilt reduced range hurts her best grounded combo starter. DABK is almost completely useless as a move.

The best tool about her now is Witch Time to smash attack, which is sad. I think she will fall to mid tier now.

Please Knife, you're a Link player, you guys get hate all the time for using him lmao.

Ergo, my point. If she hadn't launched as ridiculous as she was, the patch probably wouldn't have happened. She wouldn't have needed to be as bad as she is now; look at Ryu, for instance. He's considered a pretty good character who also has clearly-defined and exploitable weaknesses; I don't remember any real complaints about him.

Bayonetta at launch just ended up being too over-the-top.

You complained about how much he relied on combos, in a game that "shouldn't have them" your own words if I recall, also people love complaining about Little Mac, Shulk (In particular his counter), i'm not talking about just high level here, I'm talking at all levels of the game

I don't think there has been a single character who was met with such negativity in series history. But that's just my analysis on things.

1 word, Metaknight. In Brawl we didn't have patches, so his being the top was near unchallenged, hell there was only 1 characrer who was considered able to match him, and it was Pikachu (And it was only in that match up, not in general, Pikachu suffered vs alot of the other top peeps of Brawl). And even THAT was debated among players.

Pretty much every character who is at some kind of high level in smash, has had plenty of complaints about them. Smash 4 has quite a few nice things said about its higher tier people, such as Mario being absolutely braindead, Sonic being cancer, Rosalina being OP, Sheik being Sheik,etc. Now that Bayo has been knocked down a few pegs, the community will find someone new to latch onto to hate, which by the looks of it seem to be hilariously Diddy Kong becoming possibly the best character again.

You obviously weren't around when the Melee roster leaked. Man, was THAT an ugly sight.

Also I had totally forgotten about this.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Jedi

[Fire Emblem Fan]

My only complaint about this patch is that there were no Bowser or Roy buffs. *Sniff sniff*

[Jedi]

Yeah, there's definitely a larger portion of the cast that can be considered competitively viable compared to previous Smash games. Unfortunately, both of those games had Marth as one of those viable members and Smash 4 does not (this patch was their chance to fix that mistake!!!!!!!!!). :<

Hey at least a Marth player scored a pretty great victory vs Nairo recently!

[Water Mage]

You obviously weren't around when the Melee roster leaked. Man, was THAT an ugly sight.

How was it?

I remember parts of it, but not everthing.

Could you refresh my memory? I really curious now, and I just can't remember.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Water Mage

[Knife]

Please Knife, you're a Link player, you guys get hate all the time for using him lmao.

You complained about how much he relied on combos, in a game that "shouldn't have them" your own words if I recall, also people love complaining about Little Mac, Shulk (In particular his counter), i'm not talking about just high level here, I'm talking at all levels of the game

1 word, Metaknight. In Brawl we didn't have patches, so his being the top was near unchallenged, hell there was only 1 characrer who was considered able to match him, and it was Pikachu (And it was only in that match up, not in general, Pikachu suffered vs alot of the other top peeps of Brawl). And even THAT was debated among players.

Pretty much every character who is at some kind of high level in smash, has had plenty of complaints about them. Smash 4 has quite a few nice things said about its higher tier people, such as Mario being absolutely braindead, Sonic being cancer, Rosalina being OP, Sheik being Sheik,etc. Now that Bayo has been knocked down a few pegs, the community will find someone new to latch onto to hate, which by the looks of it seem to be hilariously Diddy Kong becoming possibly the best character again.

Also I had totally forgotten about this.

Sorry I was speaking in the context of competitive players, not casuals. No competitive player I know would really complain about Link, his flaws are many and obvious. Also I main Greninja.

[The DanMan]

You complained about how much he relied on combos, in a game that "shouldn't have them" your own words if I recall, also people love complaining about Little Mac, Shulk (In particular his counter), i'm not talking about just high level here, I'm talking at all levels of the game

1 word, Metaknight. In Brawl we didn't have patches, so his being the top was near unchallenged, hell there was only 1 characrer who was considered able to match him, and it was Pikachu (And it was only in that match up, not in general, Pikachu suffered vs alot of the other top peeps of Brawl). And even THAT was debated among players.

I overreacted before people had really started playing him, I'll admit.

However, I didn't say that the game shouldn't have combos; my point was that Smash was explicitly designed around not focusing on them and other fighting game trappings, and that adding in a character with them put the rest of the cast a disadvantage and just felt hypocritical.

Little Mac was an odd situation; For Glory helped counter-balance his weak air game by having no platforms. It ended up giving him an unfair advantage when he already hit fast and hard while having seemingly godly amounts of super armor. Some people actually used that to back up their argument on how flawed For Glory was. At the end of the day, him being nerfed was because of a bad design decision on Nintendo's part that catered to his strengths.

And has Shulk received anything but marginal buffs?

I forgot about Meta Knight. It was something that he gradually grew into, though; Snake was considered #1 during the early days of the Brawl metagame, and very few people had any complaints about the character himself (character=/=collection of hitboxes and frame data).

[Jedi]

Sorry I was speaking in the context of competitive players, not casuals. No competitive player I know would really complain about Link, his flaws are many and obvious. Also I main Greninja.

Its fine, oh you fully switched to Greninja? Sorry I didn't realize! But I know some people in Euk's region complained about him using Link, like the commentators in particular I believe he mentioned.

I overreacted before people had really started playing him, I'll admit.

However, I didn't say that the game shouldn't have combos; my point was that Smash was explicitly designed around not focusing on them and other fighting game trappings, and that adding in a character with them put the rest of the cast a disadvantage and just felt hypocritical.

Little Mac was an odd situation; For Glory helped counter-balance his weak air game by having no platforms. It ended up giving him an unfair advantage when he already hit fast and hard while having seemingly godly amounts of super armor. Some people actually used that to back up their argument on how flawed For Glory was. At the end of the day, him being nerfed was because of a bad design decision on Nintendo's part that catered to his strengths.

And has Shulk received anything but marginal buffs?

I forgot about Meta Knight. It was something that he gradually grew into, though; Snake was considered #1 during the early days of the Brawl metagame, and very few people had any complaints about the character himself (character=/=collection of hitboxes and frame data).

I guess I can see that argument, I just grew tired of all the hate I guess

I think Mac's situation does highly show why FG is a bad testing ground, Mac got nerfs to his recovery of all things, something he was already bad it, it was very very dumb, I'm not even a big fan of Mac but I still think it was super dumb, but at least we have players like Sol still wrecking house with him when he can.

Shulk started really poorly and got minor buffs, but it was mostly to his damage, buffs he needs are more in the frame data department because outside of his jab and grab, all of his moves have pretty bad start up. He has never gotten a frame data speed up buff, except for backslash, something that was already impractical and still is impractical outside of like 4 for alls and 2 v 2's (maybe)

Well Metaknight was banned for a short time, and it was a very weird time. Also alot of people weren't pleased about 3rd parties being in Smash in Brawl, but of course those were more drowned out by the (OH CRAP SNAKE AND SONIC ARE IN SMASH BROS).

[solrocknroll]

are we still playing the "ballot is a suggestion box" card

really now

it's not hard to see how Bayonetta can win if the ballot tracks IPs. Bayonetta would have dedicated fans compared to those who voted for multiple other characters

Bayonetta was the perfect choice anyway. Especially considering her competition was probably characters like Goku, Naruto, and Kirito

[Jedi]

Bayonetta was the perfect choice anyway. Especially considering her competition was probably characters like Goku, Naruto, and Kirito

Or you know, Wolf, Simon Belmont, Snake and other popular game characters.

But -shrugs- Bayo got in, I'm not one of those people, but you shouldn't be so quick to put down the other potential people who could have made it in her place.

[Jave]

How was it?

I remember parts of it, but not everthing.

Could you refresh my memory? I really curious now, and I just can't remember.

I'm going entirely by memory here, but these are some of the details I remember:

Prior to the release of the game, only the starting roster was known, and since Melee had a pretty good starting roster, people were pretty hyped for the game and discover which secret characters they were getting.

At some point, the full roster got leaked and people started analyzing it. Luigi and Jigglypuff returning was expected, and Ganondorf, Mewtwo and Falco were generally good picks, but then there were characters like Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu which most people couldn't believe were legit roster choices.

Marth and Roy also caused confusion, not only because Fire Emblem wasn't even known outside Japan, but in Marth's case, the few people who knew who he was identified him as "Mars" back then so most people weren't even sure who the character was supposed to be. Roy's situation was even worse, because FE6 wasn't even out yet, so some people legitimately thought they were referring to Roy Koopa, and obviously people were confused at picking a random Koopaling as a roster choice.

A lot of people also weren't convinced on the final character being Mr. Game & Watch, who was essentially called a "Non-character", so it wasn't long before most people deemed the leaked roster as fake.

Of course, when the game came out, not only were fans' worst fears confirmed, but there was also MASSIVE disappointment when people found out that the majority of the unlockable characters were clones. Ganondorf in particular got huge backlash given the fact people were excited to play as him but then found out he was a slower-but-stronger Captain Falcon.

Another complain that goes all the way back to Melee was the whole Ridley thing. The Melee reveal trailer had Samus fighting Ridley, which made a lot of people think Ridley was indeed a hidden character, so that's another disappointment fans had to deal with, even up to today.

And finally, there was also some significant backlash regarding how long it took to unlock Mewtwo and Mr.G&W, two of the few non-clone unlockables. It was incredibly annoying for single players, some of them even suggesting it was done intentionally as a ploy to get people to buy more controllers.

That's what comes to mind when I recall the situation. This was obviously quite a while back and not all the info is archived, but I do recall that for quite a while, Melee was one of the most backlashed games on the Internet.

[solrocknroll]

Or you know, Wolf, Simon Belmont, Snake and other popular game characters.

But -shrugs- Bayo got in, I'm not one of those people, but you shouldn't be so quick to put down the other potential people who could have made it in her place.

Belmont and Snake have an almost zero chance, if not completely zero. Konami would never comply unless they received huge sums of cash. Wolf is a veteran, and I have a feeling that Sakurai would never add a veteran from the ballot ever. That doesn't even feel like it was the purpose because we started with Mewtwo, Lucas, and Roy. Mewtwo was the most requested veteran fighter overall, Roy was the next most requested Melee character, and Lucas was the most requested Brawl character. You can tell that Lucas was more requested than Wolf because Mother's fanbase is very very loud.

Remember that Cloud is an unofficial Ballot winner as well. Sakurai looked at Final Fantasy requests and saw Cloud on top. If people had wanted Squall, Tidus, or Lightning more, I wouldn't have been surprised to see them.

There are no first party characters that would make as big of a splash as any third party character. It's a given that 3rd parties would be chosen. It just so happens that Cloud and Bayonetta won. Denying the ballot is foolish.

[Water Mage]

I'm going entirely by memory here, but these are some of the details I remember:

Prior to the release of the game, only the starting roster was known, and since Melee had a pretty good starting roster, people were pretty hyped for the game and discover which secret characters they were getting.

At some point, the full roster got leaked and people started analyzing it. Luigi and Jigglypuff returning was expected, and Ganondorf, Mewtwo and Falco were generally good picks, but then there were characters like Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu which most people couldn't believe were legit roster choices.

Marth and Roy also caused confusion, not only because Fire Emblem wasn't even known outside Japan, but in Marth's case, the few people who knew who he was identified him as "Mars" back then so most people weren't even sure who the character was supposed to be. Roy's situation was even worse, because FE6 wasn't even out yet, so some people legitimately thought they were referring to Roy Koopa, and obviously people were confused at picking a random Koopaling as a roster choice.

A lot of people also weren't convinced on the final character being Mr. Game & Watch, who was essentially called a "Non-character", so it wasn't long before most people deemed the leaked roster as fake.

Of course, when the game came out, not only were fans' worst fears confirmed, but there was also MASSIVE disappointment when people found out that the majority of the unlockable characters were clones. Ganondorf in particular got huge backlash given the fact people were excited to play as him but then found out he was a slower-but-stronger Captain Falcon.

Another complain that goes all the way back to Melee was the whole Ridley thing. The Melee reveal trailer had Samus fighting Ridley, which made a lot of people think Ridley was indeed a hidden character, so that's another disappointment fans had to deal with, even up to today.

And finally, there was also some significant backlash regarding how long it took to unlock Mewtwo and Mr.G&W, two of the few non-clone unlockables. It was incredibly annoying for single players, some of them even suggesting it was done intentionally as a ploy to get people to buy more controllers.

That's what comes to mind when I recall the situation. This was obviously quite a while back and not all the info is archived, but I do recall that for quite a while, Melee was one of the most backlashed games on the Internet.

Oh, now I remember! Especially the Ridley thing! That part in Melee's opening is what made many people want him in the first place!

But man, even back then there already was controversy...

Makes me wonder what would be people's reaction if Mr. Game & Watch were to be a new character in 4 instead of Meele.

[The DanMan]

Oh, now I remember! Especially the Ridley thing! That part in Melee's opening is what made many people want him in the first place!

But man, even back then there already was controversy...

Makes me wonder what would be people's reaction if Mr. Game & Watch were to be a new character in 4 instead of Meele.

I've also seen it mentioned that people were expecting Wolf instead of Falco (once again, due to the opening video).