Units that should have been the main character.

[blah the Prussian]

Patriotism and a general dislike of dictators using racism to opress an entire group of people? He's also been thoroughly kicked out of his home. Simply setting up shop on the opposite end of the continent isn't all that easy. They give it a try with Sanaki's help but fighting desperate Laguz unfairly persecuted and corrupt senators who could potentially behead you for doing the right thing probably didn't appeal to him. There's dozens of reasons why Ike might want to liberate his own country. He doesn't have to be a noble to hold a stake in what's going down in the land he calls home. True nobles do tend to have more reasons to involve themselves with politics, which is exactly the reason it took eight games before we got a base born hero taking centre stage.

When has he shown patriotism for Crimea? When has he even given a reason beyond his contract? The problem with Ike is that he really doesn't show any of the strain that comes with being a leader; he feels like much more of an Everyman, which isn't suited to games like Fire Emblem. He doesn't feel like a natural leader, and he doesn't grow into being a leader, either; we're supposed to assume that being a mercenary commander makes him a good general of an entire army suddenly. Him not being involved in politics is diasastrous for the narrative, too. Since the main character isn't involved with political intrigue, the politics are shoved to the side, a shame since they are the best part of Tellius. The Endgame is a perfect example: fighting Ashnard is by all accounts Elincia's fight. This is the man who killed her parents and raped her homeland. But Ike is the one who has to deliver the finishing blow, because he's the hero. I'll admit that the fight with the Black Knight is good, but the Black Knight spent the entire game stealing the entire plot from Ashnard, who is simply much more interesting, especially after you find out who the Black Knight really is. The Black Knight has NO CHARACTER; none. Ashnard, meanwhile, is brimming with character even in the few scenes he's in. The second narrative problem with the Black Knight and Ike is by building up the confrontation between them, the last two chapters of the game feel anticlimactic. The fight between Ike and the Black Knight is the narrative climax of the game, and two chapters away from the endgame is the last place you want that climax to be. The Elincia-Ashnard rivalry should have been the focus.

[NekoKnight]

The problem with Ike is actually his position as a commoner though. It moves the story away from one about leadership and essentially makes it a more generic adventure story. Take Ike, for example. The idea of a young inexperienced leader forced to take power after their father dies is an interesting idea, but it makes no sense in the context of a mercenary group. Mercenary groups don't work in a hereditary way. The second problem is, essentially, Ike has very little stake in liberating Crimea. He is motivated by the power of boners, as Cinemasins would put it, and by the desire for revenge. Elincia would be motivated by the desire to liberate her people, and that in my eyes is much more interesting than what motivates Ike. Seriously, what reason would Ike have to fight Daein; to stay after doing his job and delivering Elincia to Begnion I mean, if the Black Knight hadn't killed his father?

Everything you list as a weakness of Ike's story I consider a strength. The protagonist being a baseborn mercenary commander is very refreshing after a long line of nobles. "Generic" would be "Prince(ss) of peaceful country seeks aid from other countries to liberate their country from bad guy". That describes more than a few Fire Emblems. In the context of the Fire Emblem series, a coming of age story for a youth seeking revenge (while defending the oppressed) is atypical.

Bolded: The Greil Mercenaries are described as being like a family so there is more emotion in considering the new commander. But the game acknowledges your point when Shinon and Gatrie leave over Ike's lack of experience.

Radiant Dawn gives you what you asked for in the form of Part 2. We can agree that Ike's character arc was mostly finished by then so it didn't need much more focus.

[Alazen]

I hardly see how RD Part 2 addresses his request. As dandy as Elincia's character is in it, Part 2 was really more of an exercise in showing off returning characters and/or getting the Greil Mercenaries onto the scene.

[blah the Prussian]

Everything you list as a weakness of Ike's story I consider a strength. The protagonist being a baseborn mercenary commander is very refreshing after a long line of nobles. "Generic" would be "Prince(ss) of peaceful country seeks aid from other countries to liberate their country from bad guy". That describes more than a few Fire Emblems. In the context of the Fire Emblem series, a coming of age story for a youth seeking revenge (while defending the oppressed) is atypical.

Bolded: The Greil Mercenaries are described as being like a family so there is more emotion in considering the new commander. But the game acknowledges your point when Shinon and Gatrie leave over Ike's lack of experience.

Radiant Dawn gives you what you asked for in the form of Part 2. We can agree that Ike's character arc was mostly finished by then so it didn't need much more focus.

But is Ike good just because he's unique? What character development, really, does he go through? I admit there's some, but it isn't enough to fill a whole story. The Ike vs the Black Knight story would have worked better in a different game, or how about making Ike the mercenary archetype and having the Black Knight thing be what it should have been: a subplot? Either that, or have Ashnard be the one to kill Ike's father, although that would still have some problems. Answer me this: when does Ike show the strain of being a leader? How does he grow as a character as a result of his leadership position? It doesn't help, either, that Shinon and Gatrie are said by the story to be wrong with very little room for debate. Ike, essentially, is boring, and his story mixing with Elincia's story ended up negatively effecting both the political and the revenge aspects of the story. I also disagree that making Elincia the protagonist would be cliched for two reasons: firstly, no FE game would have had such a focus on being a leader, and on the challenges associated with it; admittedly, Marth and Part two did this somewhat. Answer me this, however: how much more powerful would Lucia's execution scene had been if Elincia was refusing the demands of Ashnard, the megalomaniacal conquerer who murdered her parents and raped her homeland, as opposed to Ludveck, Mr. Generic Bad Guy #50? Secondly, Elincia would have basically exactly the same coming of age aspect as Ike, but combined with the political concerns that the story's worship of Ike shoves aside.

[NekoKnight]

But is Ike good just because he's unique? What character development, really, does he go through? I admit there's some, but it isn't enough to fill a whole story. The Ike vs the Black Knight story would have worked better in a different game, or how about making Ike the mercenary archetype and having the Black Knight thing be what it should have been: a subplot?

It's not JUST being an atypical protagonist but it does help. The character development he goes through is starting out as a shadow of his father, unsure of his own abilities as a leader, growing up to be the man who can lead his mercenary band and to defeat the man not even his father could defeat. Ike's arc was to become and eventually surpass Greil. Just because Ike's personal arch nemesis wasn't the final boss doesn't mean it was insignificant.

Answer me this: when does Ike show the strain of being a leader? How does he grow as a character as a result of his leadership position? It doesn't help, either, that Shinon and Gatrie are said by the story to be wrong with very little room for debate.

He shows strain when he can't keep all the Greil Mercenaries together after Greil's death. Him growing as a character is going from "replacement goldfish for Greil" to leader of the Crimean liberation army. As far as Shinon and Gatrie's departure is portrayed, I don't think it was especially negative. Ike is bummed out but he seems to think of as the result of his own lack of leadership skills (iirc).

Ike, essentially, is boring, and his story mixing with Elincia's story ended up negatively effecting both the political and the revenge aspects of the story.

I disagree. Unlike other lords who are graceful and polite, Ike is a rougher sort that doesn't want to wade through political bullshit to do the right thing. That makes him a good foil for the more politically savvy members of the group. Wasn't it a nice scene when he calls out Senaki for trolling Elincia? His occasionally rash but good-hearted actions make him feel human to me. I don't see how his story being mixed with Elincia's was a bad thing.

I also disagree that making Elincia the protagonist would be cliched for two reasons: firstly, no FE game would have had such a focus on being a leader, and on the challenges associated with it; admittedly, Marth and Part two did this somewhat. Answer me this, however: how much more powerful would Lucia's execution scene had been if Elincia was refusing the demands of Ashnard, the megalomaniacal conquerer who murdered her parents and raped her homeland, as opposed to Ludveck, Mr. Generic Bad Guy #50? Secondly, Elincia would have basically exactly the same coming of age aspect as Ike, but combined with the political concerns that the story's worship of Ike shoves aside.

Elincia is a different character in PoR than she was in RD Part two. She's basically a ghost with no leadership skills or political clout. Had Ike not been her pillar of support, it would have been Lucia or Geoffrey. Could she have gone through a similar character arc as Ike? Possibly, but I don't think it would have necessarily been more interesting.

Elincia telling Ashnard to piss off wouldn't have been any different than Ludveck because the demands are the same "Surrender or your friend dies". The point of her character development is that by the end of Radiant Dawn Part 2, she's a leader who can stand up to pressure and make the best choices for the good of her people. Mission accomplished.

[blah the Prussian]

It's not JUST being an atypical protagonist but it does help. The character development he goes through is starting out as a shadow of his father, unsure of his own abilities as a leader, growing up to be the man who can lead his mercenary band and to defeat the man not even his father could defeat. Ike's arc was to become and eventually surpass Greil. Just because Ike's personal arch nemesis wasn't the final boss doesn't mean it was insignificant.

No, but it devalues the final boss fight because there is little to no buildup for Ashnard. It would be like having Darth Vader die in the middle of Return of the Jedi and then have Luke fight the Emperor as a climax; it would be lame because the climax is what the entire story should be leading up to. The final confrontation with Ashnard was not what POR was building up to. Before you ask, yes, I think its bad in other FE games where the climax is far from fighting the main rival, like in FE6 and FE1. It was less pronounced there, though, because Zephiel and Gharnef didn't repeatedly appear before the protagonists of those games, and while Gharnef killed Marth's father you don't see it. Ashnard is an afterthought compared to the Black Knight; the revenge story outright steals the spotlight from where the story should be: the Mad King's War. The latter instead serves as a mere set piece for this rivalry.

He shows strain when he can't keep all the Greil Mercenaries together after Greil's death. Him growing as a character is going from "replacement goldfish for Greil" to leader of the Crimean liberation army. As far as Shinon and Gatrie's departure is portrayed, I don't think it was especially negative. Ike is bummed out but he seems to think of as the result of his own lack of leadership skills (iirc).

But what does he actually do to codify this development? He never has a moment like Elincia sacrificing Lucia, and its never shown how he grows into a leader. As for Shinon and Gatrie, Shinon being the token jackass of the group, as well as leaving explicitly because he was too proud to serve under Ike, seems to me to be a very negative way to cast that decision.

I disagree. Unlike other lords who are graceful and polite, Ike is a rougher sort that doesn't want to wade through political bullshit to do the right thing. That makes him a good foil for the more politically savvy members of the group. Wasn't it a nice scene when he calls out Senaki for trolling Elincia? His occasionally rash but good-hearted actions make him feel human to me. I don't see how his story being mixed with Elincia's was a bad thing.

Yeah, a good foil. But the thing with foils is that they aren't the main character, they exist to accentuate the traits of the main character. And his story being mixed with Elincia's is a bad thing because he acts as a lightning rod for the character development that should have been Elincia's but its far more small scale and far less interesting. Elincia's character development in Part 2 is good, but its also rushed. Speaking as a moderate feminist, I dislike Elincia in POR precisely because her only reason for being in the story was to give Ike a reason for wanting to fight Daein, as opposed to just killing the Black Knight.

Elincia is a different character in PoR than she was in RD Part two. She's basically a ghost with no leadership skills or political clout. Had Ike not been her pillar of support, it would have been Lucia or Geoffrey. Could she have gone through a similar character arc as Ike? Possibly, but I don't think it would have necessarily been more interesting.

Elincia telling Ashnard to piss off wouldn't have been any different than Ludveck because the demands are the same "Surrender or your friend dies". The point of her character development is that by the end of Radiant Dawn Part 2, she's a leader who can stand up to pressure and make the best choices for the good of her people. Mission accomplished.

It would be more interesting, in my mind, because it would be more large scale, the stakes would be higher, and, once again, the climax would be more climactic. This goes for Ludveck, too. The confrontation with him was built up for a few Chapters. The confrontation with Ashnard should have been built up for the entire game. Ashnard is more menacing than Ludveck, and he's more interesting; its that simple.

[Moblin Major General]

No, but it devalues the final boss fight because there is little to no buildup for Ashnard. It would be like having Darth Vader die in the middle of Return of the Jedi and then have Luke fight the Emperor as a climax; it would be lame because the climax is what the entire story should be leading up to. The final confrontation with Ashnard was not what POR was building up to. Before you ask, yes, I think its bad in other FE games where the climax is far from fighting the main rival, like in FE6 and FE1. It was less pronounced there, though, because Zephiel and Gharnef didn't repeatedly appear before the protagonists of those games, and while Gharnef killed Marth's father you don't see it. Ashnard is an afterthought compared to the Black Knight; the revenge story outright steals the spotlight from where the story should be: the Mad King's War. The latter instead serves as a mere set piece for this rivalry.

The difference is, Marth is a noble, who always tends to look at the big picture. Ike doesn't look at the big picture a lot of the time, which leads to him being corrected a lot by his peers. Roy, however, is probably the least emotionally driven lord, being that the only major death of a character comes early in the story to a character that he personally has little attachment to. Not to mention that Eliwood is probably still alive years after the end of the narrative, especially if Roy takes the throne of Lycia.

But what does he actually do to codify this development? He never has a moment like Elincia sacrificing Lucia, and its never shown how he grows into a leader. As for Shinon and Gatrie, Shinon being the token jackass of the group, as well as leaving explicitly because he was too proud to serve under Ike, seems to me to be a very negative way to cast that decision.

How about that he doesn't reject being knighted by Elincia? He could've refused, but he let Sanaki convince him that he needed a title in order to lead the Begnion Army, which I have a serious problem with, as there are a lot of good generals in history that were of common blood.

Yeah, a good foil. But the thing with foils is that they aren't the main character, they exist to accentuate the traits of the main character. And his story being mixed with Elincia's is a bad thing because he acts as a lightning rod for the character development that should have been Elincia's but its far more small scale and far less interesting. Elincia's character development in Part 2 is good, but its also rushed. Speaking as a moderate feminist, I dislike Elincia in POR precisely because her only reason for being in the story was to give Ike a reason for wanting to fight Daein, as opposed to just killing the Black Knight.

Wrong. Ike's main drive is to put Elincia on the throne of Crimea. Fighting Zelgius becomes a side objective, because he still just wants to liberate Crimea, but can't until Daein is defeated, but won't be if a tactical genius like Zelgius is at the left hand of Ashnard.

It would be more interesting, in my mind, because it would be more large scale, the stakes would be higher, and, once again, the climax would be more climactic. This goes for Ludveck, too. The confrontation with him was built up for a few Chapters. The confrontation with Ashnard should have been built up for the entire game. Ashnard is more menacing than Ludveck, and he's more interesting; its that simple.

Why? We know exactly what Ashnard is planning. It's pretty easy to foray into conquering Daein from defeating the Black Knight. This works in literature, because even if Minas Tirith fell in Return of the King, Frodo would've still succeeded in his mission, as the Nazgul were too far from Mordor to go back to looking for Frodo. It works when the side objective becomes the focus of a large portion of the narrative, as much as you might think it takes away from it.

[NekoKnight]

No, but it devalues the final boss fight because there is little to no buildup for Ashnard. It would be like having Darth Vader die in the middle of Return of the Jedi and then have Luke fight the Emperor as a climax; it would be lame because the climax is what the entire story should be leading up to. The final confrontation with Ashnard was not what POR was building up to. Before you ask, yes, I think its bad in other FE games where the climax is far from fighting the main rival, like in FE6 and FE1. It was less pronounced there, though, because Zephiel and Gharnef didn't repeatedly appear before the protagonists of those games, and while Gharnef killed Marth's father you don't see it. Ashnard is an afterthought compared to the Black Knight; the revenge story outright steals the spotlight from where the story should be: the Mad King's War. The latter instead serves as a mere set piece for this rivalry.

I think you are over-hyping the Black Knight here. He's a significant obstacle that Ike must overcome but Daein (aka Ashnard) is still the primary threat that the plot revolves around. You make it sound like the politics and factions are just background noise to Ike's revenge plot but the reality is that Ike is equally driven to stop Ashnard and friends. The Black Knight shows up now and then to remind you of Ike's personal beef but he is a Daein general and must be defeated along with the rest of them. The Black Knight (plot important for Ike) is defeated in Chapter 27, the next chapter is Izuka (plot important for the Laguz especially) and then Ashnard (plot important for everyone) is fought. Not exactly the middle of the story.

But what does he actually do to codify this development? He never has a moment like Elincia sacrificing Lucia, and its never shown how he grows into a leader. As for Shinon and Gatrie, Shinon being the token jackass of the group, as well as leaving explicitly because he was too proud to serve under Ike, seems to me to be a very negative way to cast that decision.

His difficulties with leadership aren't as central to his character development as they are for Elincia (because she's the ruler of a country). What is central is that he be a worthy successor to his father, and what codifies that is defeating the Black Knight.

Shinon was an ass but it was a "jerkass has a point" sort of thing. His gripes with Ike were legitimate, even if Shinon is dislikable on a personal level. If you want a biased narrative, look no further than how Takumi is treated in Conquest.

Yeah, a good foil. But the thing with foils is that they aren't the main character, they exist to accentuate the traits of the main character. And his story being mixed with Elincia's is a bad thing because he acts as a lightning rod for the character development that should have been Elincia's but its far more small scale and far less interesting. Elincia's character development in Part 2 is good, but its also rushed. Speaking as a moderate feminist, I dislike Elincia in POR precisely because her only reason for being in the story was to give Ike a reason for wanting to fight Daein, as opposed to just killing the Black Knight.

We have a different definition of foils. The definition I go by is any two characters that highlight each others traits by their differences. If you want to call the level-headed characters a foil to Ike's rashness, that's fine too. Regardless of what you want to call it, it's good to have different sorts of characters to contrast each other in the way they handle situations.

You say the development should go to Elincia but that's subjective. Why can't Ike be involved in the politics of the setting? Elincia has a more personal connection to the invasion of Crimea, being its princess and all, but that's like every Fire Emblem ever (hyperbole, I know). Baddies come, kill your folks and drive you out of the country. That doesn't strike me as very interesting.

I don't think Elincia in PoR was anti-feminist (she does improve a bit, joining the battle near the end after she grows a set of ovaries), especially if you take Pellius into account. He was also a helpless, unknown royalty who relies heavily on others (and he's even less effectual than Elincia was). You have Senaki and plenty of other strong females in the story as well.

It would be more interesting, in my mind, because it would be more large scale, the stakes would be higher, and, once again, the climax would be more climactic. This goes for Ludveck, too. The confrontation with him was built up for a few Chapters. The confrontation with Ashnard should have been built up for the entire game. Ashnard is more menacing than Ludveck, and he's more interesting; its that simple.

The climax is already high enough. Ashnard is ruining everyone's lives, not just Elincia's. Aside from the little stint dealing with Begnion's corruption, Daein is an active threat throughout the game. Elincia triggers the "stop Ashnard" plot but it's relevant to anyone who doesn't want a racist, war-mongering psychopath having free reign.

Ludvek might not be as interesting as Ashnard but he's exactly what he needs to be for Elincia's sub-plot to work. He's a Crimean rival to Elincia's rule and he forces Elincia to toughen up. He doesn't need to be riding a dragon and hold a ridiculous sword to be the crux of Elincia's character development.

[False Prophet]

The original three pegasus sisters! Seriously, there are simply so much materials begging to be exploited!

[blah the Prussian]

Rommel: I think you somewhat contradicted yourself. Ike being knighted isn't a major moment of leadership for him. The climax of Elincia's character development is when she makes a choice to put the needs of the many above the needs of the few, which is behavior fitting of a leader. What moment does Ike have when he first behaves like a leader should, not, for example, being driven by emotion, but rather logic. Here, let me suggest one: Ike and company stumble upon some villagers, maybe five or so, that are being attacked by some Daein soldiers. It turns out to be a trap, and Ike needs to withdraw to save his entire army from a losing battle. Ike at the beginning of the game would fight to the end, but, because of Ike's experience, he now knows that he shouldn't fight this losing battle, and thus he has matured as a leader. He has no such moment in the game. Regarding Ike's main drive, yeah, that's what I meant, she exists as a plot device here. I really don't get what you mean by that last bit.

I think you are over-hyping the Black Knight here. He's a significant obstacle that Ike must overcome but Daein (aka Ashnard) is still the primary threat that the plot revolves around. You make it sound like the politics and factions are just background noise to Ike's revenge plot but the reality is that Ike is equally driven to stop Ashnard and friends. The Black Knight shows up now and then to remind you of Ike's personal beef but he is a Daein general and must be defeated along with the rest of them. The Black Knight (plot important for Ike) is defeated in Chapter 27, the next chapter is Izuka (plot important for the Laguz especially) and then Ashnard (plot important for everyone) is fought. Not exactly the middle of the story.

His difficulties with leadership aren't as central to his character development as they are for Elincia (because she's the ruler of a country). What is central is that he be a worthy successor to his father, and what codifies that is defeating the Black Knight.

Shinon was an ass but it was a "jerkass has a point" sort of thing. His gripes with Ike were legitimate, even if Shinon is dislikable on a personal level. If you want a biased narrative, look no further than how Takumi is treated in Conquest.

We have a different definition of foils. The definition I go by is any two characters that highlight each others traits by their differences. If you want to call the level-headed characters a foil to Ike's rashness, that's fine too. Regardless of what you want to call it, it's good to have different sorts of characters to contrast each other in the way they handle situations.

You say the development should go to Elincia but that's subjective. Why can't Ike be involved in the politics of the setting? Elincia has a more personal connection to the invasion of Crimea, being its princess and all, but that's like every Fire Emblem ever (hyperbole, I know). Baddies come, kill your folks and drive you out of the country. That doesn't strike me as very interesting.

I don't think Elincia in PoR was anti-feminist (she does improve a bit, joining the battle near the end after she grows a set of ovaries), especially if you take Pellius into account. He was also a helpless, unknown royalty who relies heavily on others (and he's even less effectual than Elincia was). You have Senaki and plenty of other strong females in the story as well.

The climax is already high enough. Ashnard is ruining everyone's lives, not just Elincia's. Aside from the little stint dealing with Begnion's corruption, Daein is an active threat throughout the game. Elincia triggers the "stop Ashnard" plot but it's relevant to anyone who doesn't want a racist, war-mongering psychopath having free reign.

Ludvek might not be as interesting as Ashnard but he's exactly what he needs to be for Elincia's sub-plot to work. He's a Crimean rival to Elincia's rule and he forces Elincia to toughen up. He doesn't need to be riding a dragon and hold a ridiculous sword to be the crux of Elincia's character development.

I really don't see how Ashnard is more prominent than the Black Knight. Ike and Ashnard never even meet until the endgame (correct me if I'm wrong, been a while since I've played). I also think you contradicted yourself here; the main objective is to beat Ashnard, but beating the Black Knight is central to Ike's character. The climax of one's character development should also, generally, be the climax of the story if that character is the main character, of course. Two chapters after Ike defeats his main rival throuout the story is two too many. Admittedly this is more of a beef with the Black Knight rather than Ike, but seriously: how many scenes is Ashnard in? What reason does the PLAYER, not Ike, have to feel motivation to beat Ashnard? That motivation is certainly there for the Black Knight, but Ashnard is so underdeveloped that the story doesn't translate to the gameplay well (yes I am shamelessly ripping of Really Freakin Clever). It's not so much that Ashnard isn't a threat, but that the Black Knight is more visibly a threat throughout the story. How many times does Ike even mention Ashnard?

Okay. Ike can be involved in the politics of Tellius, I suppose, but the fact is that he isn't. Elincia is. Quite simple, really. As for the strong females I definitely agree, but they only really show up in Radiant Dawn, with the exception of the Serenes scene, and that doesn't happen to Elincia. Elincia also doesn't do anything significant story wise because she joined the fight; she can fight Ashnard, but, well, she can't actually harm him. Harming him is Ike's job.

Finally, the last bit. Elincia's sub plot being a sub plot in the first place is the problem (and this is a problem with RD too) because Ike and Micaiah took the focus away from her. Also, you have to admit, it is better story wise for her to go through that development in Path of Radiance, simply because the stakes are higher, and everything is more epic.

[Augestein]

Rommel: I think you somewhat contradicted yourself. Ike being knighted isn't a major moment of leadership for him. The climax of Elincia's character development is when she makes a choice to put the needs of the many above the needs of the few, which is behavior fitting of a leader. What moment does Ike have when he first behaves like a leader should, not, for example, being driven by emotion, but rather logic. Here, let me suggest one: Ike and company stumble upon some villagers, maybe five or so, that are being attacked by some Daein soldiers. It turns out to be a trap, and Ike needs to withdraw to save his entire army from a losing battle. Ike at the beginning of the game would fight to the end, but, because of Ike's experience, he now knows that he shouldn't fight this losing battle, and thus he has matured as a leader. He has no such moment in the game. Regarding Ike's main drive, yeah, that's what I meant, she exists as a plot device here. I really don't get what you mean by that last bit.

This happens in game. Chapter 24:

Ike

Why appear now? Do you mean to tell me you purposely waited until the battle was over?

Black Knight

Hmph. I know how your mind works. I assumed you would attack the moment you saw me. But perhaps you've learned to judge the importance of time and place.

Ike

To a mercenary, nothing's more important than the contract between him and his employer.

Black Knight

Shall we call off our contest then? When you die here, you'll be in breach of contract after all.

Ike

That's not a problem. All I have to do is win... Ready yourself!

Black Knight

Hmph.

Black Knight

You're not as overly clumsy as I had feared. It is regrettable that your weapon is so poorly made.

And then the game proceeds to immediately be stupid by saying it was his armor that was the reason that Ike can't win... Seriously? Why didn't he tell that to Greil? Or fight him in unblessed armor? Ugh...I hate the black knight. However, I agree that Ike's plot should have been a subplot and that Elincia should have been the hero of the game. Game spends to much time riding Ike rather than everyone else. Ike shouldn't even be the main character, deuteragonist at best, but ideally a tritagonist, being less important than Titania, the actually commander of the mercenaries and Elincia, the whole reason anything is even happening.

How about that he doesn't reject being knighted by Elincia? He could've refused, but he let Sanaki convince him that he needed a title in order to lead the Begnion Army, which I have a serious problem with, as there are a lot of good generals in history that were of common blood.

He doesn't want to be a lord initially, and this pretty much happens. He does initially refuse.

Sanaki

Hold! I am most definitely NOT through with you.

Ike

Huh? What did I do now?

Sanaki

You're as impudent and impatient as ever. Heed me, Ike. If you are to help lead the Crimean Liberation Army, you must be given a more appropriate title.

Ike

If you're talking about making me a noble, I'll decline, thanks. That's not my kind of thing.

Sanaki

You are not in a position to refuse. Giving some nameless mercenary control of Begnion's troops would be...problematic. And more importantly, it would affect the troops. You will resign yourself to this and receive peerage from Princess Elincia.

Ike

What? No, wait! This is absurd...Blast! Of all the foolish...

Elincia

I'm...sorry about this. If you're absolutely opposed to it, I won't force you.

Ike

No, I have to do what's necessary. What am I supposed to do now? Put on a funny hat or something?

Elincia

Um, will you...lend me your sword? Thank you. Now, may I ask you...to kneel before me?

Elincia

Th-thank you. All right... Let me begin. In the name of House Crimea, I hereby grant you the title and rank of lord and all the honors it conveys. Rise, Lord Ike.

Elincia

It is done.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Augestein

[Rapier]

Someone mentioned Lilina. I like her and I think she's a good candidate for being the main character (daughter of the strongest Lycian Marquess, rules over what iirc is the most military prepared territory, has contacts with Etrurian generals, starts as a naive character that develops her personality with time), but her character and participation on the game make me see her as a side-character that depends too much on others.

RD's Sanaki and Elincia also have potential. I disliked both on POR, but they got my respect on RD with their character development.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Rapier

[Jotari]

Why didn't Elincia lead the Hawk Army in Part 4? Seems weird to me Tibarn got to be the lord for that section when we had three previous Parts, each with a main focus on a different Lord, and Elincia (being one of the main focus characters of the previous parts) is forced in that army. I like Tibarn a lot but that just seems weird. I guess the writers just felt more comfortable giving him the flavor text even though most of those chapters split the dialogue pretty evenly from what I can recall.

[blah the Prussian]

Why didn't Elincia lead the Hawk Army in Part 4? Seems weird to me Tibarn got to be the lord for that section when we had three previous Parts, each with a main focus on a different Lord, and Elincia (being one of the main focus characters of the previous parts) is forced in that army. I like Tibarn a lot but that just seems weird. I guess the writers just felt more comfortable giving him the flavor text even though most of those chapters split the dialogue pretty evenly from what I can recall.

Yeah that is weird now that you mention it. To be fair Tibarn is more experienced as a leader than Elincia, but still.

[Alazen]

I say that Skrimir should had Ike's position of being Team Laguz's Lord unit in Part 3. Ike can still be there and have his talks with Micaiah, but Skrimir actually had something resembling a character arc.

[Rapier]

Why didn't Elincia lead the Hawk Army in Part 4? Seems weird to me Tibarn got to be the lord for that section when we had three previous Parts, each with a main focus on a different Lord, and Elincia (being one of the main focus characters of the previous parts) is forced in that army. I like Tibarn a lot but that just seems weird. I guess the writers just felt more comfortable giving him the flavor text even though most of those chapters split the dialogue pretty evenly from what I can recall.

... Because it is the Hawk Army (which implies it is Tibarn's Army)?

I mean, you can argue Ike leads the Laguz Army on part 3, but it is actually delegated to him because Skrimir is considered "too young and foolish" (that wasn't the exact wording).

[adacis]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Lucina yet because Awakening plot just screams for her as protagonist. She's the one who pursues the antagonist with the most determination, she has gripe with Grima more than Chrom and Robin (after all Robin isn't even completely aware until way later, and Chrom is just like What???). The Future Past 3 was basically another way of telling the same story, and arguably has a more suitable ending than the main one. If the developers were really dedicated to it, they could've even approached the story by starting in future Ylisse with Lucina, and we could've watched her + squad go back in time -> building up to final climax. In addition, I feel like she is more of the "main face" of the game more than Chrom and Robin.
Although, Awakening story is fun from Robin's POV, gotta give it that.

[Jotari]

... Because it is the Hawk Army (which implies it is Tibarn's Army)?

I mean, you can argue Ike leads the Laguz Army on part 3, but it is actually delegated to him because Skrimir is considered "too young and foolish" (that wasn't the exact wording).

Well it's called the Hawk Army because Tibarn leads it not due to the nature of the army. There's only three Hawks (and two of them aren't mandatory) -_- It just as easily could have been called the Crimean Forces (which would have made more sense considereing Bastian and Renning eventually join the forced Elinica and Lucia.

[NekoKnight]

I really don't see how Ashnard is more prominent than the Black Knight. Ike and Ashnard never even meet until the endgame (correct me if I'm wrong, been a while since I've played). I also think you contradicted yourself here; the main objective is to beat Ashnard, but beating the Black Knight is central to Ike's character. The climax of one's character development should also, generally, be the climax of the story if that character is the main character, of course. Two chapters after Ike defeats his main rival throuout the story is two too many. Admittedly this is more of a beef with the Black Knight rather than Ike, but seriously: how many scenes is Ashnard in? What reason does the PLAYER, not Ike, have to feel motivation to beat Ashnard? That motivation is certainly there for the Black Knight, but Ashnard is so underdeveloped that the story doesn't translate to the gameplay well (yes I am shamelessly ripping of Really Freakin Clever). It's not so much that Ashnard isn't a threat, but that the Black Knight is more visibly a threat throughout the story. How many times does Ike even mention Ashnard?

Unfortunately, I can't recall the script well enough to tell you when and where Ashnard is brought up but the threat of Daein is brought up quite frequently. The Black Knight doesn't exist in a vacuum. He might be more of a face to the Daein threat to Ike than Ashnard is but the overarching antagonist is Daein as a whole, not just the Black Knight and not just Ashnard.

Bolded: Generally, that's how a story is structured, the "traditional" way if you will; that doesn't mean a story must follow that exact pattern. Defeating the Black Knight is certainly a personal goal for Ike, something that defines his character arc, but it's not his only goal. Let's say we have a game set during WWII and your character is a French resistance fighter whose village was torched under the orders of an SS officer. Avenging his village might be a character specific goal/accomplishment for the protagonist, but the Nazis are still in power so why stop there? Does Hitler need to have personally destroyed the protagonist's village for him to be an acceptable final opponent? Killing both of them is the goal. One goal is more personal but less significant to the larger picture, and that's okay.

Okay. Ike can be involved in the politics of Tellius, I suppose, but the fact is that he isn't. Elincia is. Quite simple, really. As for the strong females I definitely agree, but they only really show up in Radiant Dawn, with the exception of the Serenes scene, and that doesn't happen to Elincia. Elincia also doesn't do anything significant story wise because she joined the fight; she can fight Ashnard, but, well, she can't actually harm him. Harming him is Ike's job.

Finally, the last bit. Elincia's sub plot being a sub plot in the first place is the problem (and this is a problem with RD too) because Ike and Micaiah took the focus away from her. Also, you have to admit, it is better story wise for her to go through that development in Path of Radiance, simply because the stakes are higher, and everything is more epic.

It seems like you think Elincia and Ashnard were owed more attention than they got, based on only your subjective favor of those characters. I don't know why you would go as far as to say Micaiah took focus away from Elincia when it was the other way around. Ike in PoR and Micaiah in Radiant Dawn had their own character arcs that were relevant to the greater story being told. Elincia could have been a bigger player but she wasn't shoved out of the way by other characters. She was never intended to be the character the story centered on.

Edited May 28, 2016 by NekoKnight

[blah the Prussian]

Unfortunately, I can't recall the script well enough to tell you when and where Ashnard is brought up but the threat of Daein is brought up quite frequently. The Black Knight doesn't exist in a vacuum. He might be more of a face to the Daein threat to Ike than Ashnard is but the overarching antagonist is Daein as a whole, not just the Black Knight and not just Ashnard.

Bolded: Generally, that's how a story is structured, the "traditional" way if you will; that doesn't mean a story must follow that exact pattern. Defeating the Black Knight is certainly a personal goal for Ike, something that defines his character arc, but it's not his only goal. Let's say we have a game set during WWII and your character is a French resistance fighter whose village was torched under the orders of an SS officer. Avenging his village might be a character specific goal/accomplishment for the protagonist, but the Nazis are still in power so why stop there? Does Hitler need to have personally destroyed the protagonist's village for him to be an acceptable final opponent? Killing both of them is the goal. One goal is more personal but less significant to the larger picture, and that's okay.

It seems like you think Elincia and Ashnard were owed more attention than they got, based on only your subjective favor of those characters. I don't know why you would go as far as to say Micaiah took focus away from Elincia when it was the other way around. Ike in PoR and Micaiah in Radiant Dawn had their own character arcs that were relevant to the greater story being told. Elincia could have been a bigger player but she wasn't shoved out of the way by other characters. She was never intended to be the character the story centered on.

Second part. Uh, yeah. I have a subjective opinion that Ashnard is a kickass villain much more interesting than the Black Knight, who is the bitch of another bitch, and I also have a subjective opinion that Elincia's RD character arc was more interesting than Ike's and it would be better still were she the focus of POR. These subjective opinions are no different from your subjective opinions to the contrary. Also for the record, Sanaki and Micaiah should have been the co main characters of RD, not Ike and Micaiah. I meant that Elincia's story shouldn't have been a subplot in the greater context of both Tellius games.

Secondly, the problem with this is that the final BOSS FIGHT is not against Daein as a country, it's against Ashnard. If Ashnard had been built up to an acceptable level, that would be fine. The WWII thing is a somewhat bad analogy because history has already built up Hitler enough; that's why he needed no introduction in Wolfenstein (admittedly Wolfenstein is hardly a story heavy game). Ashnard, though, has no such luck; the only big build up moment he has is orchestrating the Serenes Massacre, and that got retconned to be the Senate's doing ((bloody hell RD). He needs more buildup than what he got, and I believe that that buildup would have been more natural had Elincia been the protagonist.

[NekoKnight]

Second part. Uh, yeah. I have a subjective opinion that Ashnard is a kickass villain much more interesting than the Black Knight, who is the bitch of another bitch, and I also have a subjective opinion that Elincia's RD character arc was more interesting than Ike's and it would be better still were she the focus of POR. These subjective opinions are no different from your subjective opinions to the contrary. Also for the record, Sanaki and Micaiah should have been the co main characters of RD, not Ike and Micaiah. I meant that Elincia's story shouldn't have been a subplot in the greater context of both Tellius games.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly would you structure the plot had Elincia been the main character? Would the Greil mercenaries be in the game or would Elincia be protected by her own retainers? How would her journey and development differ from Ike's journey?

[Jotari]

Second part. Uh, yeah. I have a subjective opinion that Ashnard is a kickass villain much more interesting than the Black Knight, who is the bitch of another bitch, and I also have a subjective opinion that Elincia's RD character arc was more interesting than Ike's and it would be better still were she the focus of POR. These subjective opinions are no different from your subjective opinions to the contrary. Also for the record, Sanaki and Micaiah should have been the co main characters of RD, not Ike and Micaiah. I meant that Elincia's story shouldn't have been a subplot in the greater context of both Tellius games.

Secondly, the problem with this is that the final BOSS FIGHT is not against Daein as a country, it's against Ashnard. If Ashnard had been built up to an acceptable level, that would be fine. The WWII thing is a somewhat bad analogy because history has already built up Hitler enough; that's why he needed no introduction in Wolfenstein (admittedly Wolfenstein is hardly a story heavy game). Ashnard, though, has no such luck; the only big build up moment he has is orchestrating the Serenes Massacre, and that got retconned to be the Senate's doing ((bloody hell RD). He needs more buildup than what he got, and I believe that that buildup would have been more natural had Elincia been the protagonist.

Ashnard being behind the Serenes Massacre was never historical fact in Tellius. It's something the main characters assumed during Path of Radiance when they read the Heron who's name I can't remember story about her being captured by a "big man".

[Anacybele]

That would be Lillia, Jotari. :P

And I think I would've actually liked PoR more if both Ike and Elincia had been lords of the story, but I disagree that it should've been only Elincia as the main protag. I'd argue why Ike is a great protag for PoR, but what I'd say has pretty much already been said. And I'd also love to link this video I found a long time ago that's relevant to this and actually explains why Ike is a great hero for the story, and I'd reposted it on SF a couple times, but it's been awhile and those posts are like buried by now. >_<

And yeah, the characters only thought that Ashnard was behind the Serenes Massacre, it wasn't ever fact. And RD didn't retcon anything here, even Nasir states in PoR that the senate blamed the herons for Misaha's assassination and THIS is what leads to the Serenes Massacre. So even if the senate hadn't been the ones who killed Misaha, they were still responsible for the Serenes Massacre.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Anacybele

[Rapier]

Well it's called the Hawk Army because Tibarn leads it not due to the nature of the army. There's only three Hawks (and two of them aren't mandatory) -_- It just as easily could have been called the Crimean Forces (which would have made more sense considereing Bastian and Renning eventually join the forced Elinica and Lucia.

Fair enough. But Elincia was never a commander of sorts unless the situation demanded (she usually delegates that duty to Geoffrey, from what the game shows; the only time she took the lead was in part 2's last chapter because there was no one else), whereas Tibarn was both a leader and a commander. It makes more sense for him to lead that army than Elincia.

[blah the Prussian]

Just out of curiosity, how exactly would you structure the plot had Elincia been the main character? Would the Greil mercenaries be in the game or would Elincia be protected by her own retainers? How would her journey and development differ from Ike's journey?

I would say have the Greil Mercenaries be in the game. The prologue would be showing Ashnard's capture of the Crimean Capitol, and Elincia's escape. I could see her being joined by her retainers, but they wouldn't be pre promotes and they'd just be Geoffrey and Lucia. If I'm being charitable there would be one filler chapter between fleeing the castle and meeting the Greil Mercenaries. They would still be involved and Ike would be a more plot important Ogma. He would be a major character, but not a lord. The escape to Begnion would go as normal, but have Ashnard kill Greil instead of the BK; maybe also have him comment on how Greil betrayed Daein or something. Shiharam replaces the Black knight as a Rider. Also: make Sanaki older. This is unrelated to Elincia being the protagonist, but, seriously, no ten year old is that smart. She's a great character but it felt contrived. Make her 15 or something. So once they get to Begnion this is where things really start to diverge. Ashnard uses Begnion sheltering Elincia as an excuse to invade Begnion. He also uses the Senate as a fifth column; it always wierded me out that the Senate didn't act when Begnion was at war with the extremely racist King they could make common cause with. Ashnard would of course plan to turn on the Senate as soon as he no longer needs them. Anyway, Elincia and co first move against Oliver, Lekain, and Valtome, beating them in a series of chapters. During that time, though, Daein, led by Ashnard himself, besieges Sienne. So Elincia going back to Sienne is also where her big character growth moment happens, because this is where she fights Bertram. He isn't a monster here, though; he is still somewhat recognizable as Renning, making it hard for Elincia to bring herself to fight him. Her doing so, and killing him regretfully, is a sign of her maturing as a leader. Ashnard, meanwhile, kills Sepheran before being weakened. This means that a mutual respect can develop between Sanaki and Elincia, as well as Ike. The group then assaults Serenes Forest, where Daein is to get the Fire Emblem. Daein does get the Emblem, but that doesn't matter because it's time to liberate Crimea! Yep, Crimea will get liberated first; that never did make sense to me in POR. So this brings Begnion, Gallia, and the bird Laguz countries together into a coalition (getting Lekain to undo Naesala's blood pact would be a plot point) and after several chapters Crimea is liberated and after several more Daein is finally defeated. The endgame would involve a mechanic similar to the one found in Part 3's endgame in RD, that of defeating Ashnard before enough soldiers are killed to awaken the Dark God. So yeah.