Is it me, or are most of the Conquest characters... underwhelming?

[Kalfa]

So, I just finished my first Conquest run (European dude here, so I got the game fairly recently and I played Hoshido first). And I'm having mixed feeling about most of the characters in that route.

As characters, I like them a lot more than Birthright's cast. There are only a handful of characters I like in BR, I tolerate most of them and I downright hate a few of them. Conquest, on the other hand, I like almost all of them.

But as far as effectiveness goes, just ow. In my finished Conquest run, Keaton and Velouria where the only two units aside from Corrin and the royals that were performing decently. Niles was okay-ish, but that's mostly because I made him an adventurer with the shining bow ; I wanted to try it, but I imagine he would have been better as a physical bow knight. The others I used were just here to provide support to the royals/Corrin/Keaton/Velouria.

Now, this was my first run, and whenever I do a FE game for the first time I throw optimization out of the window and just try stuff. But still, I had so many units that weren't even able to two-shot standard goons, it's sad.

Also, I'm usually a fan of magic and damn does Nohr have it hard on that point. Nyx has abysmal skill (if I recall correctly her skill didn't cross into the double digit until I promoted her) and Odin is actually much better as a physical fighter. Leo is pretty good, since he's a royal, but I think he's arguably the worst of all the royals (or at least one of the worst). Elise starts as a staff locked unit (hence taking forever to level up) and is made of paper. Camilla is much better as a physical fighter, although she does use magic to a decent extent. Felicia joins quite late, and doesn't have the best stats (and if you change her to a strategist you have to deal with E level tome and that's not cool). I read Ophelia is quite good but this would have required me to spend time on Odin, so I didn't have her.

And when it's not the stats, it's the classes available. Take Peri, for example. Why is her second class set dark mage? I mean, I understand for Camilla, she does have some magic going on for her, but Peri?

Also, I really wanted to make her a wyvern rider, but nope, not possible. Unless you marry her to a male Corrin with wyvern rider as his chosen class set (check it out. None of the first generation male characters have Wyvern rider as their first class set (i.e the one that can be used with the partner seal), and she can't A+ the female characters that can)

Xander too, Wyvern riders are cool, but they can't use sword, and that's kind of too bad since he has Siegfried.

(note that I don't like the Cavalier line, so obviously I'm biased here)

On the other hand, none of the unit looked like they were trash-tier to me (well, none of the ones I used, anyway). Just not good enough.

Anyway, I know RNG screwage happen, but I'm on my second playthrough here and while it's a bit better (since I'm thinking about pairing and classes instead of just going "you, you're cool, and she's cool too, so let's have you make babies"), I'm still seeing kind of the same thing, on the same units. Niles is still okay-ish (went bow knight this time around), Nyx still has pathetic skill, and the royals still wreck everything in sight.

The only exception being Selena, which was complete poop in my first playthrough (which hurt, because I like the character a lot), but now she wrecks things.

So, what do you think? Am I just unlucky, or are most of the characters in Conquest not that good?

[Hli Tshiab]

What I can say is...

Nyx has 35% Skill Growth in her base class, which is low, but she's the Magic and Speed orientated mage. She's meant to nuke things down, and it helps if they can't counter her. If you're having trouble hitting the enemy, try placing any unit that has heartseeker next to them to decrease their avoid by 20.

Odin is physically orientated, having 35% Str and 30% Mag, but as a mage he does quite well as a Nosferatu tank. He has the bulk to survive hits, and the skill to hit the enemy so he can reliably get some health back,

Leo does better as a dark flier, or strategist, because it helps him with his speed and magic. Of course keeping him in his Dark Knight class makes him a tanking unit like Xander. He may not be the best, but he should be able to take magical hits better than Xander while being decent at taking physical hits as well.

Felicia, though joins late, does quite well for a strategist because she has the magic to do decent damage while also being a staff bot. The flame shrike still makes her quite good, but it's better to reclass to get skills because Felicia and Jakob starts as promoted Unit that level up like unpromoted, which means they can easily net multiple high-level skills that makes them superior to others. Felicia is also better than Jakob as a late joiner. Her level is also determined by (Current Level + 12) so if you leveled her up to 3 before you do the path thing, then she should join at a higher level.

Peri having Dark Mage as her secondary nets her the Dark Knight skills, Life Taker and Seal magic. Life Taker goes well with her personal skill. She can marry Xander for the Wyvern class, because if base classes are shared then the second pass is given instead.

Xander having Wyvern does help him in the Kitsune map, and having Sieg in the inventory is still useful for that +4 Def. Although his weapons changed, he can get trample, savage blow, rally def, and swordbreaker from the Wyvern line. It makes him a better tank, better at being attacked and doing decent damage back.

Selena should boast better defense and speed than Laslow. You can also fix Nyx's skill by marrying her to Leo for the troubadour class. It should give her 60/55/60 for mag/skill/spd growth.

Conquest characters, IMO, are more balanced than Birthrights by far, so some aren't useless and some aren't broken.

I'm also pretty sure birthright characters won't do well in conquest, because of how player phase orientated their class and route are.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Hli Tshiab

[Shadow Mir]

@ OP: Felicia only joins late if your avatar is female.

Anyways, while I haven't completed CQ yet, the only characters I found particularly underwhelming thus far were the fighters (Arthur's a reset hazard, which sucks since I like his design and character, and Charlotte's frail. And both tend to have issues hitting things).

Edited June 5, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Kalfa]

Well, this confirm what I thought : I've had a mix of average-to-bad RNG and not so good planning.

I don't have dark flyer for Leo (Revelation isn't out in Europe yet), but I'll give strategist a try. I lack staff users anyway.

Anyway, thanks for your insight, it's much appreciated. Especially about Peri, the fact that the second class is given if the first one is shared had completely slipped my mind. It's too late for my current playthrough, but I'll definitely give it a try on the next one.

I still think Birthright characters perform better generally speaking, when you don't pay particular attention to their development/pairing/etc. Heck, even Rinka was (very!) useful in my second Hoshido playthrough.

That or I got lucky while goofing around and happened to it all the right notes for them.

I do agree on the player phase orientated part, though. So many skills that trigger when you initiate, that's crazy.

[edit] @Levant Mir Celestia : I know that. But I don't think she would be better if you had her earlier. You'd have to deal with her squishiness and lack of strength (since you won't have the flame shuriken until a while and your first heart seal might be better used elsewhere, depending on your strategy), and that's not cool. Also you'd have to level her staff skill. The only problem I have with her joining late is the E rank tome when you reclass her to strategist, but if you're willing to spend the time it's worth it.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Kalfa

[Shadow Mir]

[edit] @Levant Mir Celestia : I know that. But I don't think she would be better if you had her earlier. You'd have to deal with her squishiness and lack of strength (since you won't have the flame shuriken until a while and your first heart seal might be better used elsewhere, depending on your strategy), and that's not cool. Also you'd have to level her staff skill. The only problem I have with her joining late is the E rank tome when you reclass her to strategist, but if you're willing to spend the time it's worth it.

Fair enough. Though, tbh, I generally don't use the magic weapons, aside from Felicia's Plate (which you can find randomly in My Castle or get through Battle Points) very often.

[Mister Cold]

Well, this confirm what I thought : I've had a mix of average-to-bad RNG and not so good planning.

I don't have dark flyer for Leo (Revelation isn't out in Europe yet), but I'll give strategist a try. I lack staff users anyway.

I should have tried that too.

he felt lacking in my Lunatic run. But to be fair, besides my MU barely anyone felt like they're pulling their weight (solo'd c27 with MU and 1turned the endgame boss with ferrie and rally support).

My MU had 9dmg 100%hitrate on Ryoma (he had 4ish dmg and 40~hitrate)

anyway ... yeah, on CQ you get less broken characters then on BR.

[Kalfa]

Fair enough. Though, tbh, I generally don't use the magic weapons, aside from Felicia's Plate (which you can find randomly in My Castle or get through Battle Points) very often.

I have yet to get that one. I found Jakob's tray, but not this one. And I don't have enough BP yet. I'll try to get my hands on it.

I rarely use magic weapons too, mostly because there are few classes that can really use them well, but I really like the idea. I'm thinking on trying to optimize some units specifically for that.

I should have tried that too.

he felt lacking in my Lunatic run. But to be fair, besides my MU barely anyone felt like they're pulling their weight (solo'd c27 with MU and 1turned the endgame boss with ferrie and rally support).

My MU had 9dmg 100%hitrate on Ryoma (he had 4ish dmg and 40~hitrate)

anyway ... yeah, on CQ you get less broken characters then on BR.

Well, Lunatic is an entirely different story. I personnally prefer to mess around with characters I like, even if they are sub-par. You can't do that in Lunatic.

And yeah, Leo is meh, for a royal. And Hoshidan royals > Nohr royals. Mainly because of the lack of speed, IMO. Having a unique weapon isn't that cool if you can only use it once per turn.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Kalfa

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I haven't finished Conquest yet but there's one character in Conquest who really inspires me: Beruka

She's like FE10 Haar: a physical wall (except for bows)

Her defense is so high that most enemies can't even do damage to her. She can't take two hits by magic users but she's fantastic against enemies with physical weapons.

Maybe Camilla can do it too when I have reclassed her to a wyvern lord.

As for the others: There's no unit who's notable good or bad.

Well, Odin has good growths in the wrong stats.

I'd say Corrin is one of the worse of my team but I guess I was just RNG screwed in his level ups.

[Kalfa]

I haven't finished Conquest yet but there's one character in Conquest who really inspires me: Beruka

She's like FE10 Haar: a physical wall (except for bows)

Her defense is so high that most enemies can't even do damage to her. She can't take two hits by magic users but she's fantastic against enemies with physical weapons.

Maybe Camilla can do it too when I have reclassed her to a wyvern lord.

As for the others: There's no unit who's notable good or bad.

Well, Odin has good growths in the wrong stats.

I'd say Corrin is one of the worse of my team but I guess I was just RNG screwed in his level ups.

I've gotten seriously RNG screwed on Beruka in my first playthrough. Even after promoting her to a wyvern lord and having her catch up to Camilla's level, Camilla's was better in literally everything. By far sometimes, depending on the stat.

Second playthrough now, and she's clearly better, but Camilla still outclass her (except in defense, indeed).

[Ownagepuffs]

CQ has a surprisingly viable cast.

[Shadow Mir]

I have yet to get that one. I found Jakob's tray, but not this one. And I don't have enough BP yet. I'll try to get my hands on it.

I rarely use magic weapons too, mostly because there are few classes that can really use them well, but I really like the idea. I'm thinking on trying to optimize some units specifically for that.

Well, Lunatic is an entirely different story. I personnally prefer to mess around with characters I like, even if they are sub-par. You can't do that in Lunatic.

And yeah, Leo is meh, for a royal. And Hoshidan royals > Nohr royals. Mainly because of the lack of speed, IMO. Having a unique weapon isn't that cool if you can only use it once per turn.

Bold: That's personally why I think Takumi isn't all he's cracked up to be. He's one of the better archers in the series, yes, but to say he's the best??? That's trying to sell a bill of goods I refuse to buy.

CQ has a surprisingly viable cast.

I suppose I can agree - the only characters I have any real issue with are the aforementioned Arthur and Charlotte. And maybe Odin as well.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Kalfa]

Bold: That's personally why I think Takumi isn't all he's cracked up to be. He's one of the better archers in the series, yes, but to say he's the best??? That's trying to sell a bill of goods I refuse to buy.

I suppose I can agree - the only characters I have any real issue with are the aforementioned Arthur and Charlotte. And maybe Odin as well.

I'd say Takumi is the best you can have effortlessly. There may be a few characters that end up better if you try some stuff (maybe a magic archer? The shining bow having 1-2 range is pretty neat), though I never really tried to find out. Takumi works, and he works well, so why bother. Dunno what his son is worth, never tried him either.

Oh, and that's just for Fates. In the whole series, I think that Rolph or Shinon in FE10 are better than him, just for the fact that having 3 range with any bow is bonkers. There might be others that are even better somewhere, I haven't tried them all (if we only factor in unique weapon, Innes has one as well, though others can use it too)

[Shadow Mir]

I'd say Takumi is the best you can have effortlessly. There may be a few characters that end up better if you try some stuff (maybe a magic archer? The shining bow having 1-2 range is pretty neat), though I never really tried to find out. Takumi works, and he works well, so why bother. Dunno what his son is worth, never tried him either.

Oh, and that's just for Fates. In the whole series, I think that Rolph or Shinon in FE10 are better than him, just for the fact that having 3 range with any bow is bonkers. There might be others that are even better somewhere, I haven't tried them all (if we only factor in unique weapon, Innes has one as well, though others can use it too)

Well, he may be the best in Fates, but he's definitely not someone who I'd be calling "broken" (For the record, I consider RD Shinon the best archer in the series, and even he wasn't broken). And going back to the unique weapons thing, Siegfried's my favorite for the crit evade boost and defense boost.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Kalfa]

Well, he may be the best in Fates, but he's definitely not someone who I'd be calling "broken" (For the record, I consider RD Shinon the best archer in the series, and even he wasn't broken). And going back to the unique weapons thing, Siegfried's my favorite for the crit evade boost and defense boost.

I think people call him broken because he is when he joins. He's got more than decent stats, and the 14 Mt on his Fujin Yumi is pretty damn powerful. Also, he joins on a chapter full of ninja, which are all dodgy pricks, and since he has high skill he'll probably be one of the most accurate character you have at that point, which helps - and again, the 14 Mt mean the ninjas will die pretty fast to him.

Later on, when you start having access to similarly powerful weapons for other characters, he's simply strong. Not broken.

I have to agree with you on Siegfried. Too bad Xander kinda lacks the speed to reliably double with it without heavy investment in speed wings. Oh well.

[Alastor15243]

@ OP: Felicia only joins late if your avatar is female.

Anyways, while I haven't completed CQ yet, the only characters I found particularly underwhelming thus far were the fighters (Arthur's a reset hazard, which sucks since I like his design and character, and Charlotte's frail. And both tend to have issues hitting things).

Ever tried reclassing Arthur to a sniper through marriage to Mozu? Much more accurate, almost as good of a critical rate, and his obscene skill growth really suits the sniper class.

Also, as for the topic in general, Conquest gets Laslow, who is the single best support unit ever and can easily compensate for any RNG screwage on your other units. Give him the right marriage and friendship and he can become an absolutely amazing rally bot who can also split into two rally bots.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Thane]

Critdelia laughs at this thread.

No but seriously Ophelia is a great unit and fairly hard to screw up. If you don't want to use Odin in the story, then you can grind supports in My Castle battles.

Of course, Velour is love, Velour is life.

[avengerfive]

Conquest is designed to be harder, obviously the units are going to be look weak when you compare them to the lolBirthright units. Like if took the cast of Conquest and put them in Birthright (why isn't this a DLC patch?), the game would be just as easy. Probably easier, as you get Royals way earlier(lol Ch.8 Camilla, Ch.10 Leo, and Ch.14 Xander.)

[Kalfa]

Ever tried reclassing Arthur to a sniper through marriage to Mozu? Much more accurate, almost as good of a critical rate, and his obscene skill growth really suits the sniper class.

Also, as for the topic in general, Conquest gets Laslow, who is the single best support unit ever and can easily compensate for any RNG screwage on your other units. Give him the right marriage and friendship and he can become an absolutely amazing rally bot who can also split into two rally bots.

I have to admit I rarely use rally. I'll give it a try.

As for reclassing to archer, I have to agree ; while not OP, archers are a solid class. That's how I made Rinkah useful on my last Hoshido run. While also giving Takumi Death Blow. Win-win.

Critdelia laughs at this thread.

No but seriously Ophelia is a great unit and fairly hard to screw up. If you don't want to use Odin in the story, then you can grind supports in My Castle battles.

Of course, Velour is love, Velour is life.

Yeah, I have her in my second playthrough. I also had Odin turn into a samurai, so now she has astra, and it's pretty neat. The fact that she has her own weapon (and a pretty decent one with that) is also nice. I really like her.

Conquest is designed to be harder, obviously the units are going to be look weak when you compare them to the lolBirthright units. Like if took the cast of Conquest and put them in Birthright (why isn't this a DLC patch?), the game would be just as easy. Probably easier, as you get Royals way earlier(lol Ch.8 Camilla, Ch.10 Leo, and Ch.14 Xander.)

True, but I got this feeling when comparing "standard" units to the royals. In Birthright the royals are very powerful and the other units are (mostly) quite powerful themselves. In Conquest, the royals are also very powerful, but most units pale in comparison.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Kalfa

[DragonFlames]

Conquest is designed to be harder, obviously the units are going to be look weak when you compare them to the lolBirthright units. Like if took the cast of Conquest and put them in Birthright (why isn't this a DLC patch?), the game would be just as easy. Probably easier, as you get Royals way earlier(lol Ch.8 Camilla, Ch.10 Leo, and Ch.14 Xander.)

I'll have to agree with you, at least on the royals and Keaton and the children (some of which are shared anyway). I really don't want to have the never-hitting Arthur (by extension also Percy) and Charlotte or the always-gets-critted Niles on Birthright. That would be suicide when going up against the Nohrian Royals and their retainers or any of the other bosses and maps, really.

It really helps that you get Camilla in Nohr Chapter 10, when your units barely pass level 10 as unpromoted units (save for Corrin if you used him/her exclusively during the prologue chapters). Xander and Leo feel underwhelming in comparison, because by the time they join, you can already have units with better stats and weapon levels, which is especially noticeable with Leo. He was outclassed by Sorcerer Nyx and Dark Knight Owain Odin in terms of power and doubling ability in my playthrough. He serves as pair up fodder ever since. Although Brynhildr is pretty strong, as is Siegfried. I think Mjolnir is an overall better weapon though, if only because you can forge it.

Although the best mage character in Conquest is probably Ophelia and/or a magic oriented Kana with Ophelia as her mother. I would say Ophelia if only because of her personal skill. Mjolnir is pretty dangerous on her.

If Camilla joined later, Beruka could have eclipsed her, if you got the right stats for her. I'm using both on my CQ playthrough and Beruka as a Wyvern Lord has better stats in everything, other than Resistance and Speed, and its pretty much a tie on the last one. Also, Beruka makes for a better tank than Camilla, especially when you are going up against Ninjas, which might be due to the class, but I don't know.

As a funny side note: Xander's weapon's name is Siegfried when the Sacred Twin weapons in Sacred Stones were named Siegmund and Sieglinde, Siegfried's parents according to the Niebelungenlied and the original myth.

Edited June 5, 2016 by DragonFlames

[Hothead9323]

Well, I have to agree about a lot of the things mentioned so far. Charlotte sucks unless you put time into her, or you change her into a Maid. she does pretty well as one and tomebreaker is very useful for her and her child (whoever you marry anyways). I personally never really used Arthur...but Beruka! oh yes, I love her as a Berserker. Either I got lucky on the RNG or shes just just much better as one. Peri on the otherhand, isn't bad to reclass to the dark knight line due to heartseeker. mine had terrible skill and could hardly hit anything. >_< so it really helped her out, so did lifetaker. Niles, will be forever a meh character in my book...as for Odin, I reclassed him like someone else did to a Samurai and he did better at that. he makes a pretty decent dark knight though.

by the way, Takumi's son (not gonna say name for spoiler purposes just in case), depending on who his mother is, can best Takumi and is easily one of the best units for Hoshido; or rather he has been every playthru for me so far.

[The Draco Knight]

Arthur was one of my best unit thabks to the indane critical he got as a berserker + killer axe. Really, every enemy that tried to attacked him, just got one shotted or critted.

Btw, Xander is quite slow, but he is so tanky that it's not really a problem wheb most of the enemy are enemy with physical weapon. Also, as a lodestar he can make up for his low speed with the skill that buff his speed of 2 points every time he kills an enemy. He can't take more than 10 points tough

[Shadow Mir]

I think people call him broken because he is when he joins. He's got more than decent stats, and the 14 Mt on his Fujin Yumi is pretty damn powerful. Also, he joins on a chapter full of ninja, which are all dodgy pricks, and since he has high skill he'll probably be one of the most accurate character you have at that point, which helps - and again, the 14 Mt mean the ninjas will die pretty fast to him.

Later on, when you start having access to similarly powerful weapons for other characters, he's simply strong. Not broken.

I have to agree with you on Siegfried. Too bad Xander kinda lacks the speed to reliably double with it without heavy investment in speed wings. Oh well.

As I see it, considering someone broken just because of one or two chapters that favour them is misguided.

As for Xander, being unable to double stinks, but he can really tank, at least on the physical side, and that's enough for me. It helps that Siegfried really takes the bite out of Berserkers.

Arthur was one of my best unit thabks to the indane critical he got as a berserker + killer axe. Really, every enemy that tried to attacked him, just got one shotted or critted.

Btw, Xander is quite slow, but he is so tanky that it's not really a problem wheb most of the enemy are enemy with physical weapon. Also, as a lodestar he can make up for his low speed with the skill that buff his speed of 2 points every time he kills an enemy. He can't take more than 10 points tough

Speaking of, I consider Berserker the single most unreliable class in Fates.

[Ebony]

I think the lack of "good" characters makes up with Camilla the Royals being... the Royals. Velouria is usually really, really good too, and Effie eats a lot of enemies for breakfast.

Speaking of, I consider Berserker the single most unreliable class in Fates.

Yeah I was waiting for you to say this.

[Shadow Mir]

Yeah I was waiting for you to say this.

Well, I couldn't NOT say it. Being vulnerable to critical hits, in my view, is even more damning a weakness than being weak to Stealth Rock in Pokemon.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

Well, I couldn't NOT say it. Being vulnerable to critical hits, in my view, is even more damning a weakness than being weak to Stealth Rock in Pokemon.

Only if you're going to put them in a situation where they would die if they get critted too many times, and you don't have to do that depending on the role you assign. It's similar to what I've heard people say about how Quixotic is apparently a bad skill because it makes you more vulnerable to getting hit and hit with skills. As long as you don't put yourself in a situation where too many successful hits will get you killed, all it does is make your own attacks and skills more reliable.

Arthur doesn't have to be an enemy phase tank, conquest has plenty of other units suited to fitting that role. Arthur works best as a player phase destroyer of major threats.