Moulder!

[Tino]

It's generally assumed that top and high tier characters are played instead of mid tier characters and lower.

Serra + Priscilla > Serra or Priscilla

Matthew + Legault > Matthew or Legault

[Raven]

As much as I agree that those two are great characters, no one is guaranteed to be deployed except those who are forced. Serra may be a person's main healer, and they might only bring Matthew to steal, then drop him when Legault comes. You can't assume someone is definitely coming just because their "top tier."

Like myself.

[Florete]

It's generally assumed that top and high tier characters are played instead of mid tier characters and lower.

Serra + Priscilla > Serra or Priscilla

Matthew + Legault > Matthew or Legault

Using two healers means cutting the experience, means they won't be promoting until later than usual. Using two thieves is almost never necessary. If you use all four, it's pretty much four slots on support characters, unless you have one thief fight a lot...

[sandmanccl]

Your point is flawed. It's like saying Sigurd (one of the best characters in the series) is not good because I could use someone else in his place, like Ardan (arguably the worst unit in Sigurd's game).

Growths are important for averages indeed, but not for your own experiences.

That's what I meant -_-

I gave legit reasons for using three other characters that fulfill the same strategical role that I find better. How is that a flawed argument? Lyn has better raw stats than Guy, Matthew is tied with Guy in every stat that matters but he can also steal and so he's more important, and Raven offers something most ground fighters can't bring, which is decent HP and defense.

Guy supports Matthew and Priscilla, sure. Raven, one of the people I said you can replace Guy with? He supports Priscilla, too. Ice is arguably better than Fire supports for her because for the majority of the game, she'll be just healing and could use the extra defensive abilities more than the boost to her attack power, unless you promote her early. Another bonus to Raven is that they use the same promotion type item so you don't have to worry about using an alternate just to find out you can't promote them all. Matthew can support Hector, Oswin, and Serra out of people who join early, and can support Legault or Jaffar later on if you want to use two thief types.

What I'm saying is that, yet again, the "BUT HE SUPPORTS THIS GUY" argument holds little to me because you can always use other supports. This might mean you can't do Eliwood/Hector A. Oh noes. Guess you can find another person to support Eliwood, and considering he's got a huge pool of good units to get supports with, that's not much of a problem either.

Guy is NOT a good unit in his own right, and having to rely on supports to make him more viable is a dangerous game if you're trying to keep your tactics rank up. Saying he's great because he supports units that the alternatives also support is pretty silly.

[Swordsalmon]

I gave legit reasons for using three other characters that fulfill the same strategical role that I find better. How is that a flawed argument? Lyn has better raw stats than Guy, Matthew is tied with Guy in every stat that matters but he can also steal and so he's more important, and Raven offers something most ground fighters can't bring, which is decent HP and defense.

Guy supports Matthew and Priscilla, sure. Raven, one of the people I said you can replace Guy with? He supports Priscilla, too. Ice is arguably better than Fire supports for her because for the majority of the game, she'll be just healing and could use the extra defensive abilities more than the boost to her attack power, unless you promote her early. Another bonus to Raven is that they use the same promotion type item so you don't have to worry about using an alternate just to find out you can't promote them all. Matthew can support Hector, Oswin, and Serra out of people who join early, and can support Legault or Jaffar later on if you want to use two thief types.

What I'm saying is that, yet again, the "BUT HE SUPPORTS THIS GUY" argument holds little to me because you can always use other supports. This might mean you can't do Eliwood/Hector A. Oh noes. Guess you can find another person to support Eliwood, and considering he's got a huge pool of good units to get supports with, that's not much of a problem either.

Guy is NOT a good unit in his own right, and having to rely on supports to make him more viable is a dangerous game if you're trying to keep your tactics rank up. Saying he's great because he supports units that the alternatives also support is pretty silly.

Check the averages again, please. Guy is destroying Lyn everywhere once she joins with his incredble offense and higher HP. He also is better at starting than Raven.

Priscilla wants Guy's earlier Avoid and Attack, so waiting for Raven is a detriment. Erk is her A support, Guy is the B. MatthewxGuy is very fast and gives Matthew +3 Attack, which he needs to keep up offensively while doing Theif utility. Serra/Legault/Jaffar are slow, and Oswin and Hector have better options.

Except characters will use the best options. Waiting for a support is generally worse than getting supports quickly.

A base 8 Strength and 25 HP makes Guy great from the start, can spam Killing Edges after promotion, and has among the best supports. He's easily incredible. The best characters are so high because of their supports anyways. ^_^

[DeSu]

TOPIC NEEDZ MOAR MOULDER.

Lvl 20 Dark Sage

Hp 49

Mag 21

Skill 24

Spd 26

Luck 13

Def 20

Res 19

S anima, b Dark, B light, A staves

[Tino]

Using two healers means cutting the experience, means they won't be promoting until later than usual. Using two thieves is almost never necessary. If you use all four, it's pretty much four slots on support characters, unless you have one thief fight a lot...

Healers draw from t heir own pool of experience. Using two healers actually gives your fighters more experience.

Well, Matthew should just be used, and Legault should be used as an extra Thief when necessary.

[DeSu]

Everyone knows Moulder is god tier in FE7

[sandmanccl]

Check the averages again, please. Guy is destroying Lyn everywhere once she joins with his incredble offense and higher HP. He also is better at starting than Raven.

Lyn is only suffering if you didn't go through her mode before starting the game's regular playthrough. It's pretty concievable she'll get to level 6 or 7 in her mode AT LEAST, and she'll be beating Guy in every area at that stage. Sure, Guy can catch up and be about on-par with her but she'll have a pretty big lead on him.

Guy's 30% offense gain is utterly horrific.

Also Raven is better than Guy. Just plain better. The reason is that his gains are more reliable. 30% strength gain means you're likely to get stat-screwed but 55% means you're likely to be a hulking brute. Their defense is on par until they promote where Raven has a clear advantage. Their other stat gains are so similar it's a moot point.

Priscilla wants Guy's earlier Avoid and Attack, so waiting for Raven is a detriment. Erk is her A support, Guy is the B. MatthewxGuy is very fast and gives Matthew +3 Attack, which he needs to keep up offensively while doing Theif utility. Serra/Legault/Jaffar are slow, and Oswin and Hector have better options.

What's having +attack earlier going to do for Priscilla? Seriously, what's it going to do? Nothing, that's what. She can't attack until you promote her, man. As in can't inflict damage. Raven joins a WHOLE GIANT THREE CHAPTERS LATER. You can't possibly get more than a rank or two out of Priscilla and Guy's support by then, and doing so will put your tactics rank in the shitter.

Priscilla can wait for supports because she's never going to be in harm's way until she promotes.

If you're using Erk, you're not using Serra. Meaning one of Oswin's supports are going to be open for Matthew. If you are still using Serra, you probably won't be using Priscilla. You don't get a whole lot of Guiding Rings.

Except characters will use the best options. Waiting for a support is generally worse than getting supports quickly.

A base 8 Strength and 25 HP makes Guy great from the start, can spam Killing Edges after promotion, and has among the best supports. He's easily incredible. The best characters are so high because of their supports anyways. ^_^

Guy has a base of 6 strength. He's got a base of 8 on hard mode, because if they left him with 6 strength, he'd be 100% worthless. Funny thing is, he probably won't be up to Raven's base strength in hard mode by the time Raven joins.

You said yourself swords are the worst weapon types and you geek out about one of the worst sword unit in the history of Fire Emblem. You are a strange, deluded little kid, man.

[Swordsalmon]

Lyn is only suffering if you didn't go through her mode before starting the game's regular playthrough. It's pretty concievable she'll get to level 6 or 7 in her mode AT LEAST, and she'll be beating Guy in every area at that stage. Sure, Guy can catch up and be about on-par with her but she'll have a pretty big lead on him.

Guy's 30% offense gain is utterly horrific.

Also Raven is better than Guy. Just plain better. The reason is that his gains are more reliable. 30% strength gain means you're likely to get stat-screwed but 55% means you're likely to be a hulking brute. Their defense is on par until they promote where Raven has a clear advantage. Their other stat gains are so similar it's a moot point.

What's having +attack earlier going to do for Priscilla? Seriously, what's it going to do? Nothing, that's what. She can't attack until you promote her, man. As in can't inflict damage. Raven joins a WHOLE GIANT THREE CHAPTERS LATER. You can't possibly get more than a rank or two out of Priscilla and Guy's support by then, and doing so will put your tactics rank in the shitter.

Priscilla can wait for supports because she's never going to be in harm's way until she promotes.

If you're using Erk, you're not using Serra. Meaning one of Oswin's supports are going to be open for Matthew. If you are still using Serra, you probably won't be using Priscilla. You don't get a whole lot of Guiding Rings.

Guy has a base of 6 strength. He's got a base of 8 on hard mode, because if they left him with 6 strength, he'd be 100% worthless. Funny thing is, he probably won't be up to Raven's base strength in hard mode by the time Raven joins.

You said yourself swords are the worst weapon types and you geek out about one of the worst sword unit in the history of Fire Emblem. You are a strange, deluded little kid, man.

Level 10 Lyn at rejoin has 22 HP, 7 Str, 4 Def, and 33% Avoid. Level 10 Guy has 30 HP, 10 Str, 7 Def, and 36% Avoid. That's without supports, and with Matthew B, Priscilla C, Guy has 13 Str, 43% Avoid. So Lyn is pretty bad compared to Guy.

Supports more than make up for it, and averages please.

Raven has support problems (Lucius promotes too late, Priscilla and Rebecca has other options, and everyone else sucks) and joins very underleveled with bad Defense. Guy has early-game utility and Killing Edge spam after promotion, as well as getting the first Hero Crest for being at a higher level.

She can promote early; level 15, and use Fire for good offense. Also, she gets the same Avoid as Raven for more of the game. Besides, the average chapter takes about 13 turns to S rank Tactics; there's more than enough time to build up her supports before Raven joins.

Healing means she'll sometimes have to be in harm's way. Getting early bonuses>getting late bonuses.

Serra and Erk are among the best characters and will be used; Serra is an epic healer and Erk has huge offense. Having more healers is very useful as most characters have lower Avoid for early-game. You get about 3 Guiding Rings; enough to promote the three.

Guy has more Attack than Raven when the latter joins.

Swords are bad, but Guy is incredible. I've supported him for years, and he's excellent due to huge offense, early-utility, decent durability, and good supports.

[bunny: spider bitten]

Josh, Rutger, and Zihark are all superior to Guy, and that's just characters of a similar archetype and in the later FEs. Though Josh wishes his game was harder so it mattered, and Zihark wishes all the supports planned in FE9 were completed.

As for Moulder, he's certainly bulky. I'd say Natasha is better if the game were harder and having a Bishop mattered. But since Moulder can kill everything you'll be seeing, has great supports, and is a very different character, I enjoyed using him.

[Swordsalmon]

Josh, Rutger, and Zihark are all superior to Guy, and that's just characters of a similar archetype and in the later FEs. Though Josh wishes his game was harder so it mattered, and Zihark wishes all the supports planned in FE9 were completed.

Rutger maybe, but Joshua has little offense due to terrible supports and Zihark doesn't have much durability or offense until promotion. Guy is better than both of them.

EDIT: lol Archetypes, they really don't mean anything. XD

Edited October 21, 2008 by Swordsalmon

[bunny: spider bitten]

As far as Archetypes go, they were worth mentioning just because they're there.

As for Josh vs. Guy, Josh's supports aren't quite as good, but Josh has better support options. Having better stats in an easier game is also nice.

Zihark of course has better supports, better stats in anything that isn't HP, skill, res, or luck, better promo gains, and doesn't have to compete for any sort of promo item.

Edited October 21, 2008 by bunny

[sandmanccl]

Level 10 Lyn at rejoin has 22 HP, 7 Str, 4 Def, and 33% Avoid. Level 10 Guy has 30 HP, 10 Str, 7 Def, and 36% Avoid. That's without supports, and with Matthew B, Priscilla C, Guy has 13 Str, 43% Avoid. So Lyn is pretty bad compared to Guy.

Supports more than make up for it, and averages please.

Averages if you play through Lyn's story at level 10: 22 HP, 8 strength, 12 Skill, 14/15 speed, 10 luck, 4 defense, 3 resistance.

Basically, equal across the board. She makes up for being weaker by having a better weapon (Manni Katti = win, plus she can use the Killer Edge you seem to have a hard on for), so she finds more utility that way. She also eventually outclasses him in every stat. Averages at 20/1 for both units, Lyn wins in every category but defense. Adding in his +2 strength for Hard Mode if you're playing on Hard Mode, he's still only got a single point of strength over Lyn. Plus, he can't use bows and lacking a long ranged option for units with poor durability is never a good thing. You have to admit bows still have a use so why not use someone that has the same utility as Guy (possibly slightly better because of her unique sword) but eventually outclasses him in every way?

I'm willing to concede that Lyn isn't very good if you don't go through her chapters first, but if you do, she's pretty damn awesome. As another bonus, she doesn't steal promotion items from anyone.

Raven has support problems (Lucius promotes too late, Priscilla and Rebecca has other options, and everyone else sucks) and joins very underleveled with bad Defense. Guy has early-game utility and Killing Edge spam after promotion, as well as getting the first Hero Crest for being at a higher level.

So if you don't use Guy, Priscilla still has other options. Well no shit, sherlock. That's a pretty broken argument because *gasp* every person in the game has other options. If you don't use Guy but use Raven, who else are you going to support Priscilla with? You've got Heath, Oswin, Lucius and Sain. Yeah, a lot of them are great support options, but I could use your own style of argument against you and say "They have other options" because they do.

Raven's strength will only be behind Guy on average if you gained 10 levels with Guy. In 4 maps? I don't see that happening without being a detriment to the experience you could be gaining on other worthwhile units. Their stats are too similar right as Raven joins for Raven to be considered significantly worse. The fact he grows into a much better unit is more reason to use him. Besides, being underleveled can be a good thing for your Experience rank, can't it?

She can promote early; level 15, and use Fire for good offense. Also, she gets the same Avoid as Raven for more of the game. Besides, the average chapter takes about 13 turns to S rank Tactics; there's more than enough time to build up her supports before Raven joins.

Healing means she'll sometimes have to be in harm's way. Getting early bonuses>getting late bonuses.

Why is she in harm's way? She's only in harm's way if you stick her in an area to heal a guy before you've finished clearing any given spot of the map of units that can get behind you. She shouldn't be getting hit except maybe on Fog of War chapters.

Serra and Erk are among the best characters and will be used; Serra is an epic healer and Erk has huge offense. Having more healers is very useful as most characters have lower Avoid for early-game. You get about 3 Guiding Rings; enough to promote the three.

Guy has more Attack than Raven when the latter joins.

Swords are bad, but Guy is incredible. I've supported him for years, and he's excellent due to huge offense, early-utility, decent durability, and good supports.

You can dump Serra for Lucius as long as you're still using Priscilla. Lucius has much better gains (she only beats him in luck and defense, two unimportant stats for mages). He won't be healing until he promotes, but he'll gain levels MUCH faster than Serra will (especially if you're splitting healing duty the way I play) so he'll promote before she ever would.

Hell, I'll even concede that Guy is salvageable and can be a good unit, but saying he's clearly better than someone who offers just as much if not more than he does is just bias.

I'd probably have an easier time S-ranking the game with the party I've just outlined than with yours because two healers is a detriment to both my experience rank and tactics rank. Don't have as many units to kill with, have too much experience being spread between two people that just one could be soaking up nicely.

[bunny: spider bitten]

Of course Guy is in no way bad, but he's not the best unit in the game either.

[Swordsalmon]

As far as Archetypes go, they were worth mentioning just because they're there.

As for Josh vs. Guy, Josh's supports aren't quite as good, but Josh has better support options. Having better stats in an easier game is also nice.

Zihark of course has better supports, better stats in anything that isn't HP, skill, res, or luck, better promo gains, and doesn't have to compete for any sort of promo item.

They're just a bunch of comparisons of older characters. From the individual games, they're useless.

Who? Natasha is his only support, and the bonuses are atrocious. Gives little Critcal and 1 Attack; the stats Joshua is desperate for. Joshua has the worst supports in the game.

Guy has Matthew and Priscilla; among the best in the game. Massive offense and massive Critical, so Guy is being great all the time.

Zihark's options are unreliable and slow, and he starts fairly mediocre. Also, WTD hurts durability a ton in FE9.

Averages if you play through Lyn's story at level 10: 22 HP, 8 strength, 12 Skill, 14/15 speed, 10 luck, 4 defense, 3 resistance.

Basically, equal across the board. She makes up for being weaker by having a better weapon (Manni Katti = win, plus she can use the Killer Edge you seem to have a hard on for), so she finds more utility that way. She also eventually outclasses him in every stat. Averages at 20/1 for both units, Lyn wins in every category but defense. Adding in his +2 strength for Hard Mode if you're playing on Hard Mode, he's still only got a single point of strength over Lyn. Plus, he can't use bows and lacking a long ranged option for units with poor durability is never a good thing. You have to admit bows still have a use so why not use someone that has the same utility as Guy (possibly slightly better because of her unique sword) but eventually outclasses him in every way?

I'm willing to concede that Lyn isn't very good if you don't go through her chapters first, but if you do, she's pretty damn awesome. As another bonus, she doesn't steal promotion items from anyone.

So if you don't use Guy, Priscilla still has other options. Well no shit, sherlock. That's a pretty broken argument because *gasp* every person in the game has other options. If you don't use Guy but use Raven, who else are you going to support Priscilla with? You've got Heath, Oswin, Lucius and Sain. Yeah, a lot of them are great support options, but I could use your own style of argument against you and say "They have other options" because they do.

Raven's strength will only be behind Guy on average if you gained 10 levels with Guy. In 4 maps? I don't see that happening without being a detriment to the experience you could be gaining on other worthwhile units. Their stats are too similar right as Raven joins for Raven to be considered significantly worse. The fact he grows into a much better unit is more reason to use him. Besides, being underleveled can be a good thing for your Experience rank, can't it?

Why is she in harm's way? She's only in harm's way if you stick her in an area to heal a guy before you've finished clearing any given spot of the map of units that can get behind you. She shouldn't be getting hit except maybe on Fog of War chapters.

You can dump Serra for Lucius as long as you're still using Priscilla. Lucius has much better gains (she only beats him in luck and defense, two unimportant stats for mages). He won't be healing until he promotes, but he'll gain levels MUCH faster than Serra will (especially if you're splitting healing duty the way I play) so he'll promote before she ever would.

Hell, I'll even concede that Guy is salvageable and can be a good unit, but saying he's clearly better than someone who offers just as much if not more than he does is just bias.

I'd probably have an easier time S-ranking the game with the party I've just outlined than with yours because two healers is a detriment to both my experience rank and tactics rank. Don't have as many units to kill with, have too much experience being spread between two people that just one could be soaking up nicely.

Rounding to the nearest number.

Guy has the Killing Edge and is still one-rounding more than Lyn, as the Mani Katti has only 45 uses. Afterwards, her entire offense is terrible, while Guy can be using Steel and Killing Edges for massive Attack. Not to mention that Guy actually promotes at a reasonable time, so by the time Lyn promotes, Guy will be at least level 20/10. Any 20/1 comparisons mean nothing.

Priscilla wants Guy, however. :/ If using Guy and Raven, assumed in the debate, Priscilla wants Guy for his earlier bonuses. Heath is one of the worst characters in the game, Oswin has Dorcas and Hector, Lucius is mediocre, and Sain has Kent and Fiora/Serra.

Guy is still beating Raven at start because of his level and support leads. As such, Guy promotes first and dominates Raven offensively and defensively. Guy is also helping Experience before Raven joins.

Ranged enemies are rather numerous and can still hit Priscilla as she heals.

Why dump the best character? :o Lucius is pathetically frail, underleveled, and costs another Guiding Ring. Using him just to support Raven is a terrible detriment, since he takes away a promotion and supports of either Serra, Erk, or Priscilla; all much superior characters. Serra can front-line attack and heal with her much higher Avoid, so she can be used as a much faster Light user.

Guy is a good character. In fact, probably one of the top 5 in FE7.

How are using two healers a detriment to Experience and Tactics? In fact, they improve them. Healing is a separate, faster source of experience, and healing multiple characters a turn allows them to fight more, improving Tactics and Experience even more. And after promotion, both become great fighting characters. Using both Serra and Priscilla is an excellent idea.

Of course Guy is in no way bad, but he's not the best unit in the game either.

Of course. Matthew and Serra>All.

[sandmanccl]

Guy has the Killing Edge and is still one-rounding more than Lyn, as the Mani Katti has only 45 uses. Afterwards, her entire offense is terrible, while Guy can be using Steel and Killing Edges for massive Attack. Not to mention that Guy actually promotes at a reasonable time, so by the time Lyn promotes, Guy will be at least level 20/10. Any 20/1 comparisons mean nothing.

Unless, of course, you choose to promote one of your warriors ahead of Guy.

You also pretend that Lyn can't use Steel Swords and Killing edges. Anything Guy can do, Lyn can do.

Priscilla wants Guy, however. :/ If using Guy and Raven, assumed in the debate, Priscilla wants Guy for his earlier bonuses. Heath is one of the worst characters in the game, Oswin has Dorcas and Hector, Lucius is mediocre, and Sain has Kent and Fiora/Serra.

Earlier bonuses that don't matter and don't really help her out that much. They help Guy out, but don't help Priscilla out much.

Guy is still beating Raven at start because of his level and support leads. As such, Guy promotes first and dominates Raven offensively and defensively. Guy is also helping Experience before Raven joins.

But hurting experience of other units that end up much better than he does. Considering all the options of people to use and that there's a ton of great units you get by the time Guy joins...

Ranged enemies are rather numerous and can still hit Priscilla as she heals.

That's why you heal before you move your units up?

Why dump the best character? :o Lucius is pathetically frail, underleveled, and costs another Guiding Ring. Using him just to support Raven is a terrible detriment, since he takes away a promotion and supports of either Serra, Erk, or Priscilla; all much superior characters. Serra can front-line attack and heal with her much higher Avoid, so she can be used as a much faster Light user.

*boggle*

Serra is terrible because she joins at level 1 without offensive capabilities. If I somehow finagled a way to use her every round on every map she's in up until Priscilla joins, she's level 6 or so. Ooh. Big deal. Lucius will pass her up quickly because gaining 30 xp per attack > gaining 10 xp per heal (which you may or may not even need to do every single round)

Raven only takes away a promotion from Guy, or maybe Barte (assuming you are definitely using Dorcas). We're REPLACING Guy with Raven here, so you're not stealing anything unless you're saying that Guy is stealing something.

She's not faster than Lucius, especially considering getting her to 20/anything is a detriment to your team but getting him to 20/10 is conceivable and appropriate.

Guy is a good character. In fact, probably one of the top 5 in FE7.

How are using two healers a detriment to Experience and Tactics? In fact, they improve them. Healing is a separate, faster source of experience, and healing multiple characters a turn allows them to fight more, improving Tactics and Experience even more. And after promotion, both become great fighting characters. Using both Serra and Priscilla is an excellent idea.

Of course. Matthew and Serra>All.

Healing is grotesquely slow. 10 rounds per level up? That's a single level and maybe a third, MAX, on any map you 5-star tactics on. Getting them to equivalent level means wasting turns means hurting your tactics rank. Also, a good tactician doesn't put more than two guys in harm's way on any given enemy phase.

I'm done talking with you, because while you bring up a few good points, you assume THERE IS NO WAY THAT ANYONE ELSE COULD EVER DO BETTER THAN YOU because of how you do it. It's like talking to a fucking brick wall. You spout the same shit every fucking time, and even when people bring completely, totally, perfectly viable alternate options, you tell them their way sucks and you are much superior to them.

At least I don't have to beat around the bush. I *can* say I'm superior to you and mean it. Tino might be as hard-headed as you are but I'll give him credit for allowing other people a say. But you, though. God. You're like a filibustering senator. You don't want there to be ideas that contradict yours even if they are perfectly viable.

You know I could start flaming you and no one would mind it? Does that not mean anything to you? Is being "superior" to other people really worth giving up your credibility as a decent human being?

[bunny: spider bitten]

Who? Natasha is his only support, and the bonuses are atrocious. Gives little Critcal and 1 Attack; the stats Joshua is desperate for. Joshua has the worst supports in the game.

Natasha, Gerik, L'Arachel. I'll admit, not for the best bonuses in most cases, and he's doing some fighting for supports with L'Arachel, but still. Doesn't help he has the worst affinity. But to say those aren't some of the best characters in the game is foolish. So I'll just assume you were miss informed on just who he supports with.

And then there's the outright better stats in an overall easier game which effects his general viability.

Guy has Matthew and Priscilla; among the best in the game. Massive offense and massive Critical, so Guy is being great all the time.

Matt and Pris are great, though I ultimately prefer Legualt. All the same. He has 0 defensive options in supports and is arguably one of the worst Swordmasters ever in terms of defense(slightly better than Fir, who has better avoid), and not the greatest HP either(One of the few stats he trumps Zihark in).

Zihark's options are unreliable and slow, and he starts fairly mediocre. Also, WTD hurts durability a ton in FE9.

Slow in what sense? It's Brom's fastest support, and probably one of his better options. Not that wait is a big issue in FE9 - Most earlier FEs would beg to have the system. If it's in terms of speed, then having Zihark's broken earth affinity is cool. But considering that Zihark has better durability(natural defense and tons of avoid from supports) than Guy for the most part anyway, I'd brush off WTD.

But this is supposed to be about Moulder, so I'll have to pull out the topic as well. Partially unfair, as I've trumped your negative views of both characters supports, but that's life.

[Florete]

There are lots of things I could say in response to you, SS, but before I actually did it I realized it would be totally pointless.

[Kintenbo]

Guys.....I think Moulder the Boulder is getting abandonment issues. He wants attention, his brown robes and mustache and all.

[DeSu]

Yeah, if you guys want to debate about that faggot Guy, do it in FE7 boards. Not Moulder's topic.

BTW: I like how you guys skipped over my attempt to keep my own topic on topic.

[Kintenbo]

Yeah, if you guys want to debate about that faggot Guy, do it in FE7 boards. Not Moulder's topic.

BTW: I like how you guys skipped over my attempt to keep my own topic on topic.

20 Defense? Lord Almighty that's good for magic folk! Man alive, that 26 Speed plus High Con means wonders for him too!

[DeSu]

it's 23 if you count full Vanessa support :3

[Swordsalmon]

Unless, of course, you choose to promote one of your warriors ahead of Guy.

You also pretend that Lyn can't use Steel Swords and Killing edges. Anything Guy can do, Lyn can do.

Earlier bonuses that don't matter and don't really help her out that much. They help Guy out, but don't help Priscilla out much.

But hurting experience of other units that end up much better than he does. Considering all the options of people to use and that there's a ton of great units you get by the time Guy joins...

That's why you heal before you move your units up?

*boggle*

Serra is terrible because she joins at level 1 without offensive capabilities. If I somehow finagled a way to use her every round on every map she's in up until Priscilla joins, she's level 6 or so. Ooh. Big deal. Lucius will pass her up quickly because gaining 30 xp per attack > gaining 10 xp per heal (which you may or may not even need to do every single round)

Raven only takes away a promotion from Guy, or maybe Barte (assuming you are definitely using Dorcas). We're REPLACING Guy with Raven here, so you're not stealing anything unless you're saying that Guy is stealing something.

She's not faster than Lucius, especially considering getting her to 20/anything is a detriment to your team but getting him to 20/10 is conceivable and appropriate.

Healing is grotesquely slow. 10 rounds per level up? That's a single level and maybe a third, MAX, on any map you 5-star tactics on. Getting them to equivalent level means wasting turns means hurting your tactics rank. Also, a good tactician doesn't put more than two guys in harm's way on any given enemy phase.

I'm done talking with you, because while you bring up a few good points, you assume THERE IS NO WAY THAT ANYONE ELSE COULD EVER DO BETTER THAN YOU because of how you do it. It's like talking to a fucking brick wall. You spout the same shit every fucking time, and even when people bring completely, totally, perfectly viable alternate options, you tell them their way sucks and you are much superior to them.

At least I don't have to beat around the bush. I *can* say I'm superior to you and mean it. Tino might be as hard-headed as you are but I'll give him credit for allowing other people a say. But you, though. God. You're like a filibustering senator. You don't want there to be ideas that contradict yours even if they are perfectly viable.

You know I could start flaming you and no one would mind it? Does that not mean anything to you? Is being "superior" to other people really worth giving up your credibility as a decent human being?

Possibly Dorcas, if he's used after early-game, but Bartre is too awful to be used, and Guy has a higher level on him anyways.

Guy can still double more with them due to higher AS.

Yes, they do benefit. Priscilla gets 2% Avoid, in a game where all the Avoid you can get is a necessity. Also, quick promotion and gains the offensive bonuses.

Except Guy doesn't turn out bad. He has among the best stats, with high HP, Attack, Avoid, and Critical.

That isn't always possible. There's only so many turns to complete a chapter, and enemies do tend to counter-attack.

Well, let's see...Serra has Lyn's mode, where she's gaining a level every five turns from Nils. That's amazingly fast, so Serra rejoins with an enormous level lead. She's still gaining levels and is the first character to promote. Then, Serra can use her high Magic and have strong offense, with enough Avoid to dodge most attacks. Support-wise, she has a slow, but good-bonused Erk B and a faster Sain/Matthew B, improving greatly.

Which means you have to wait a longer time for a promotion to be used, overall reducing Experience that Guy could of benefitted by promoting earlier than Raven and fight more. A character can't be proven superior unless both are being used. Otherwise, any comparison is null.

Massive level-lead from actually existing and having reliable experience, while Lucius has to fight, and joins later than Serra. Also, he has probably the second-worst durability in the game, while Serra has among the best. >__< You have to fight enemies to win maps, and of course many characters will be injured. That provides Serra and Priscilla with constant experience, enabling faster level-ups while keeping Tactics intact.

Oh how sad, I bring up points that are more logical. Get used to it. Sometimes the best way to instill some logic is by countering it again and again. Please try to back up your points a bit better.

Look at the FE9 Tier List topic, and what you said of me would be contradicted. I listen to other's opinions if they're more logical than my own, which people such as Tino and IOS have shown again and again.

Considering you take this seriously enough to break a rule, who has the more credibility as a decent human being? :o

Natasha, Gerik, L'Arachel. I'll admit, not for the best bonuses in most cases, and he's doing some fighting for supports with L'Arachel, but still. Doesn't help he has the worst affinity. But to say those aren't some of the best characters in the game is foolish. So I'll just assume you were miss informed on just who he supports with.

And then there's the outright better stats in an overall easier game which effects his general viability.

Matt and Pris are great, though I ultimately prefer Legualt. All the same. He has 0 defensive options in supports and is arguably one of the worst Swordmasters ever in terms of defense(slightly better than Fir, who has better avoid), and not the greatest HP either(One of the few stats he trumps Zihark in).

Slow in what sense? It's Brom's fastest support, and probably one of his better options. Not that wait is a big issue in FE9 - Most earlier FEs would beg to have the system. If it's in terms of speed, then having Zihark's broken earth affinity is cool. But considering that Zihark has better durability(natural defense and tons of avoid from supports) than Guy for the most part anyway, I'd brush off WTD.

But this is supposed to be about Moulder, so I'll have to pull out the topic as well. Partially unfair, as I've trumped your negative views of both characters supports, but that's life.

Gerik has Tethys, Ross, and Saleh, and L'Arachel comes too late and underleveled to be worth anything. And Natasha and Artur give some of the worst bonuses of any support.

Guy actually has better stats. :o And you have to compare by effectivness of each-other's games. Joshua has difficulty criticalling the enemies, as he has little support Critical and enemies actually have Luck, so his offense plummets. Guy has Critical-boosting supports and Luck-less enemies that are easier to kill. Also, he has enough durability to take several enemies, with a base 25 HP and 6 Def; high for the most difficult parts of the game. Since Matthew and Priscilla>Legault, they will be used and supporting Guy. I must add that to prove Guy’s durability, here are his stats at level 20/1 w/ Killing Edge. 43 HP, 68% Avoid, 11 Def, 6 Res. Doesn’t seem bad at all, does it?

Brom has bad offense and might not be played. Even with Brom and Ilyana support, both are too slow to benefit Zihark the entire game. He never does become exceptional until after promotion, and then he still doesn’t have high enough offense to be better. The enemies’ high Hit and Lances are still hurting Zihark until late-game.

Let the debate continue. Regardless, Moulder is the second-best character in FE8, and easily the manliest. <3

[Defeatist Elitist]

Unless, of course, you choose to promote one of your warriors ahead of Guy.

You also pretend that Lyn can't use Steel Swords and Killing edges. Anything Guy can do, Lyn can do.

Earlier bonuses that don't matter and don't really help her out that much. They help Guy out, but don't help Priscilla out much.

But hurting experience of other units that end up much better than he does. Considering all the options of people to use and that there's a ton of great units you get by the time Guy joins...

That's why you heal before you move your units up?

*boggle*

Serra is terrible because she joins at level 1 without offensive capabilities. If I somehow finagled a way to use her every round on every map she's in up until Priscilla joins, she's level 6 or so. Ooh. Big deal. Lucius will pass her up quickly because gaining 30 xp per attack > gaining 10 xp per heal (which you may or may not even need to do every single round)

Raven only takes away a promotion from Guy, or maybe Barte (assuming you are definitely using Dorcas). We're REPLACING Guy with Raven here, so you're not stealing anything unless you're saying that Guy is stealing something.

She's not faster than Lucius, especially considering getting her to 20/anything is a detriment to your team but getting him to 20/10 is conceivable and appropriate.

Healing is grotesquely slow. 10 rounds per level up? That's a single level and maybe a third, MAX, on any map you 5-star tactics on. Getting them to equivalent level means wasting turns means hurting your tactics rank. Also, a good tactician doesn't put more than two guys in harm's way on any given enemy phase.

I'm done talking with you, because while you bring up a few good points, you assume THERE IS NO WAY THAT ANYONE ELSE COULD EVER DO BETTER THAN YOU because of how you do it. It's like talking to a fucking brick wall. You spout the same shit every fucking time, and even when people bring completely, totally, perfectly viable alternate options, you tell them their way sucks and you are much superior to them.

At least I don't have to beat around the bush. I *can* say I'm superior to you and mean it. Tino might be as hard-headed as you are but I'll give him credit for allowing other people a say. But you, though. God. You're like a filibustering senator. You don't want there to be ideas that contradict yours even if they are perfectly viable.

You know I could start flaming you and no one would mind it? Does that not mean anything to you? Is being "superior" to other people really worth giving up your credibility as a decent human being?

Alright, I'm not going to argue about the characters right now, but as to how you're talking to SS... I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on how debates work, but honestly, SS is just doing his thing. I've seen him admit he was wrong before, and I've seen him change his mind. He doesn't discount anything that isn't his idea. He does have his standards of course, which you disagree with, but he really isn't being a dick.

Maybe it's because SS is saying that his options are better, and trying to prove them. But isn't that what everyone is doing? I see how it might look like he's being static and not changing, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about other peoples ideas. I know for a fact that he thinks Raven is pretty damn good.