Dallas Shooting

[Ken Masters]

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/08/us/dallas-police-shooting-live-updates/index.html

Last night in downtown Dallas, a group of 4 people opened fire on the Police Officers that were guarding the Black Lives Matter protest.

There are 5 confirmed deaths, 7 injured, all of them cops. If there were civilians injured, it's not yet confirmed

The killers were apparently trained in militar tactics, having 2 snipers above the protest, and 2 on the street level armed with assault rifles.

One of the killers was taken down, one commited suicide, the others 2 were captured

I really want to think this is not the way USA is going to go the next years.

Yes, the Police Department has its (many) flaws. I want'em to change. I don't want dead cops. They are civilians, like everyone else.

I fear that this kind of instance will divide the people. Believe it or not, some are celebrating this event, as if it were something to be proud of.

Now is the time for BLM to look at this, and say "This is repulsive, and not what we want" to stop the fire from burning, because if what happens is "oh, because they were white cops we should be sad?" then I'm affraid it's all over.

We're human beings, people. Please, for once, let's act like a species that somewhat cares for its equals.

Hate leads to hate leads to hate

Edited July 8, 2016 by Riptor

[Life]

It's a response to the growing number of cops who shoot unarmed suspects and are caught on film.

This is wrong. It's simply vile. And I can see a civil war breaking out within 20 years if this continues.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Pharoahe Monch

[blah the Prussian]

I'm actually getting pretty scared because depending on what happens this could be the beginning of a divide between civilians and law enforcement. Actually that divide has already happened, arguably. Essentially the sheer amount of mutual distrust building up over the years cannot lead to anything good. Civilians believe that police are out to get them, and police believe that civilians are out to get them. 20 years might be a bit hyperbolic, but I think we could see a second Civil War, if the military becomes grouped in with the police.

[Dinar87]

I'm actually getting pretty scared because depending on what happens this could be the beginning of a divide between civilians and law enforcement. Actually that divide has already happened, arguably. Essentially the sheer amount of mutual distrust building up over the years cannot lead to anything good. Civilians believe that police are out to get them, and police believe that civilians are out to get them. 20 years might be a bit hyperbolic, but I think we could see a second Civil War, if the military becomes grouped in with the police.

And with all the technology and money on their side, the "oppressors" will surely win again. We just have to accept that there's never going to be true freedom because powerful and greedy arseholes have already taken those freedoms away. Maybe they should legalise suicide so everyone can protest that way because I don't see the public EVER gaining power over things like the army or the police. They're much too powerful!

Edited July 8, 2016 by Dinar87

[blah the Prussian]

And with all the technology and money on their side, the "oppressors" will surely win again. We just have to accept that there's never going to be true freedom because powerful and greedy arseholes have already taken those freedoms away. Maybe they should legalise suicide so everyone can protest that way because I don't see the public EVER gaining power over things like the army or the police. They're much too powerful!

Oh, it's not as bad as you make it seem. The truth is that in virtually every country in history the civilian authority, whether they be a King, Emperor, or President, have had authority over law enforcement and defense. Certain elements of law enforcement don't believe that the law applies to them because it doesn't; what is needed is to punish them; remind them that they are subservient to the law, enforcers of the law, not the law itself. The same goes for civilians; the law is still the law, and I don't care how justified a riot may be, its perpetrators should still be punished.

[Moblin Major General]

Oh, it's not as bad as you make it seem. The truth is that in virtually every country in history the civilian authority, whether they be a King, Emperor, or President, have had authority over law enforcement and defense. Certain elements of law enforcement don't believe that the law applies to them because it doesn't; what is needed is to punish them; remind them that they are subservient to the law, enforcers of the law, not the law itself. The same goes for civilians; the law is still the law, and I don't care how justified a riot may be, its perpetrators should still be punished.

The problem often lies in that the punishments are not only harsh on the offenders, they often spill over into innocent bystanders, who often become more than protesters and rioters(read:rebels, traitors, spies, etc.). Why do you think the Russian Empire collapsed? The protesters who weren't killed were sent to Gulags, with their relatives joining the Red or White Army in response to the harsh rule and clandestine security forces of Tsar Nicholas. Granted, Nicholas was also advised by a Dark Triad Orthodox Pontiff.

[EricaofRenais]

This makes me very sad, both my grandparents on my dad's side were in law enforcement some of my dad's friends and some of the people I had classes with were going in to that field. I think that with the media they make us know all about the bad things and rarely show us the good things, most law enforcement want to help people and protect them and do a lot of good, there are bad people in every line of work and sadly all anyone hears about now when it comes to law enforcement is the bad things. I hope that the good people can make an impact and put the bad ones in jail.

[Original Alear]

I don't entirely disagree with you, but it also seems to me that cops and those who support them seem to be slow and unwilling to question the actions of the police in situations like these.

My friend posed part of the problem succinctly: based on past events, the policeman who killed Alton Sterling (for example) may have a fair shot at being acquitted, while the people who shot and killed the police in Dallas will probably be convicted. The latter probably isn't a big problem, but the former probably is.

(I say probably since I don't know the details of the cases thoroughly - maybe there are more extenuating circumstances than I am aware of on both sides).

It's an issue if the legal system works fine when a cop gets shot by a civilian but is dysfunctional when a cop shoots a civilian. That creates an atmosphere where, say, a civilian who's related to a victim of the violence feels like the system serves cops, but not them. I think that's an understandable reason for general antipathy towards the legal system and towards law enforcement, though not a justifiable one when carried to the extreme that it's ok to kill them.

[Ken Masters]

I don't entirely disagree with you, but it also seems to me that cops and those who support them seem to be slow and unwilling to question the actions of the police in situations like these.

My friend posed part of the problem succinctly: based on past events, the policeman who killed Alton Sterling (for example) may have a fair shot at being acquitted, while the people who shot and killed the police in Dallas will probably be convicted. The latter probably isn't a big problem, but the former probably is.

(I say probably since I don't know the details of the cases thoroughly - maybe there are more extenuating circumstances than I am aware of on both sides).

It's an issue if the legal system works fine when a cop gets shot by a civilian but is dysfunctional when a cop shoots a civilian. That creates an atmosphere where, say, a civilian who's related to a victim of the violence feels like the system serves cops, but not them. I think that's an understandable reason for general antipathy towards the legal system and towards law enforcement, though not a justifiable one when carried to the extreme that it's ok to kill them.

One thing is a civilian shooting a cop.

The other, is a group of 4 heavily armed and military trained people commiting an act of true terrorism by shooting cops.

[blah the Prussian]

The problem often lies in that the punishments are not only harsh on the offenders, they often spill over into innocent bystanders, who often become more than protesters and rioters(read:rebels, traitors, spies, etc.). Why do you think the Russian Empire collapsed? The protesters who weren't killed were sent to Gulags, with their relatives joining the Red or White Army in response to the harsh rule and clandestine security forces of Tsar Nicholas. Granted, Nicholas was also advised by a Dark Triad Orthodox Pontiff.

Uh, no, that's not why the Russian Empire collapsed. The Russian Empire collapsed largely due to the Russians getting bitchslapped by the Germans. Nicholas also didn't have gulags, and the Red and White armies only started going at it after Nicholas was dead. I'm also not talking about protestors, but rioters.

[CyborgZeta]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36745862

Apparently, the gunman wanted to kill white people.

[Moblin Major General]

Uh, no, that's not why the Russian Empire collapsed. The Russian Empire collapsed largely due to the Russians getting bitchslapped by the Germans. Nicholas also didn't have gulags, and the Red and White armies only started going at it after Nicholas was dead. I'm also not talking about protestors, but rioters.

Potemkin, Tsushima, and other Russo-Japanese skirmishes. It doesn't help that World War I was, at it's core, a blood feud. And Fiddler on the roof disagrees with Nicholas not having Gulags or not starting pogroms just for shiggles.

[blah the Prussian]

Potemkin, Tsushima, and other Russo-Japanese skirmishes. It doesn't help that World War I was, at it's core, a blood feud. And Fiddler on the roof disagrees with Nicholas not having Gulags or not starting pogroms just for shiggles.

Fiddler on the Roof isn't exactly a reliable source. Believe me, I know that Tsarist Russia was terrible, and I am not disputing pogroms. But there is a difference between Siberian prisons (which Russia still has, btw) and camps where people were sent to die. People got released from Nicholas's prisons. Not so with Stalin's prisons.

[Mobius 9]

Real shame this happened. I know this is just gonna cause (uninformed) hate against BLM even though they had nothing to do with this. Racial issues are gonna get worse in the US. RIP my thoughts go to the victims and their friends/families

Edited July 8, 2016 by Mobius 9

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

One thing is a civilian shooting a cop.

The other, is a group of 4 heavily armed and military trained people commiting an act of true terrorism by shooting cops.

exactly.

i do not wish for any more of this kind of conflict, but at this point i can see the start of a long and bloody happening, to the misfortune of all the innocents that will be caught in the crossfire.

BLM hasn't condemned this, there's been plenty of members that have actually celebrated this.

Really it seems like everyone in the country's just itching for a race war based off all the reactions. The media's turned away from giving objective facts about the matter to giving hour long opinions from one political commentator to the next. It's like we're treating this as if it's a sports game.

it's 2016 I guess, why should I be surprised, the most radical and most racist will be heard and the voices that don't scream with racial tension will be silenced.

I'm honestly disgusted by how Media these days only care about pushing a political agenda and detaching themselves from the events they are reporting on.

America already has enough to worry about with Radical Islamic terrorism, we don't need home grown terrorism to worry about now.

I mean, shit, Orlando made me worried about crossing anyone that looks arabic and this dallas event is making me cautious of groups of dark skinned people, it sucks being the white civilian.

[solrocknroll]

I'm honestly disgusted by how Media these days only care about pushing a political agenda and detaching themselves from the events they are reporting on.

America already has enough to worry about with Radical Islamic terrorism, we don't need home grown terrorism to worry about now.

I mean, shit, Orlando made me worried about crossing anyone that looks arabic and this dallas event is making me cautious of groups of dark skinned people, it sucks being the white civilian.

Are you joking?

Legitimate question. For one, most of the Orlando victims were Latino and thus non-white.

This is a horrible event, but reacting like this over one event when so many innocent black people were killed already is hypocritical.

[InsaneNoire]

It's absolutely disgusting that people are celebrating this. It's unjust that those two black men were killed in that way, but how is this gonna fix anything?? I've always had issues with BLM because of this. I used to think they had good intentions deep down, but now I'm not so sure.

[Phoenix Wright]

blm isn't to blame for this incident

I mean, shit, Orlando made me worried about crossing anyone that looks arabic and this dallas event is making me cautious of groups of dark skinned people, it sucks being the white civilian.

your fears are illogical. crossing anyone that looks arab instills fear? being around a small group of black people instills fear?

does dylan roof make you afraid of white christians? does breivik make you afraid of white people? do skinheads or aryans make you afraid of white people?

Edited July 9, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Terrador]

As a white male, your rates of violent victimization are lower than literally any other American demographic. Mass shootings are awful, but statistically insignificant. Don't buy into the racist fearmongering.

[Magical CC]

blm isn't to blame for this incident

your fears are illogical. crossing anyone that looks arab instills fear? being around a small group of black people instills fear?

does dylan roof make you afraid of white christians? does breivik make you afraid of white people? do skinheads or aryans make you afraid of white people?

For certain, I dont feel afraid of Asian people such as Chinese and Japanese when I met them. Also, being around a small group of skinheads white people is scary. A group of white people dont give that "feeling" but if they are skinheads then it's another story.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Magical CC

[Time the Crestfallen]

This is just tragic. My sympathies go out to the families of those who died.

I've seen tweets from BLM 'supporters' who have been celebrating the deaths of the police and the logic behind that line of thinking is just so wrong to me. 'The racial profiling of POC and the police brutality towards innocent POC is disgusting. That's why I'm celebrating the deaths of innocent police officers; because all police are racists who deserve to die'. I really hope that the core of the BLM make some effort to distance themselves from these people. The last thing they need is for them to be associated with this event in such a way.

I'm honestly disgusted by how Media these days only care about pushing a political agenda and detaching themselves from the events they are reporting on.

This really pisses me off, especially considering that it's usually because the people who own the media outlet who have an agenda to push rather than the reporters themselves. Shit, just look at any news outlet owned by Rupert Murdoch and you'll see what I mean.

[spoiler=Examples. Papers owned by Ruport Murdoch during the Australian 2013 Election; Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott]

And in case you're wondering, Abbott didn't even last two years. Here's why:

[Original Alear]

One thing is a civilian shooting a cop.

The other, is a group of 4 heavily armed and military trained people commiting an act of true terrorism by shooting cops.

Besides the fact that you've responded to my post by acting like I said something I didn't even say instead of addressing anything I did say, I don't even know what the relevance would have been if I did say that.

I could make a semantic argument about the definition of civilian and terrorist, but, seriously, fuck that for the most part, because it doesn't even have anything to do with my post. I will point out that you don't know the definition of the word civilian, because in your own words:

Yes, the Police Department has its (many) flaws. I want'em to change. I don't want dead cops. They are civilians, like everyone else.

And by very clear definitions of the word civilian, a cop is NOT a civilian, at least not when on active duty. I mean, a couple sentences earlier you seemed on board with making a distinction between cops and civilians.

There are 5 confirmed deaths, 7 injured, all of them cops. If there were civilians injured, it's not yet confirmed

I'm amazed someone who's all over the place is making a semantic distinction in an attempt to correct someone else.

I said:

-the policeman who killed Alton Sterling (for example) may have a fair shot at being acquitted,

-while the people who shot and killed the police in Dallas will probably be convicted.

-The latter probably isn't a big problem, but the former probably is.

Maybe I should have been slightly clearer and said that it wasn't a problem, period, but I like to hedge my bets because any story can develop. I did clearly state I didn't know the extenuating circumstances - that's why I didn't state my opinion as a definitive conclusion, because possibly there was some convoluted justification (seems unlikely if the attack was planned).

Later I said

-It's an issue if

-the legal system works fine when a cop gets shot by a civilian

-but is dysfunctional when a cop shoots a civilian.

It should be really obvious that my point is not that the legal system shouldn't protect cops who are victims of violence, but that it's a problem if it really is as poor as some people think at finding justice for the victims of violence by cops, on or off duty. I could see how you'd conflate my two paragraphs and assume I'm calling the Dallas shooters civlians, but you apparently have no grasp of what I was saying if you're bothering to respond to me by pointing that out.

Worth noting that the second paragraph was obviously talking about the general hostilities between civs and police in the US. I never called the dallas shooters civilians. I think you could call them both terrorists and civilians, but I'm not going to elaborate on the arguments for that, because it's strongly in the realm of semantics. I probably wouldn't have called them terrorists or civilians based on the little I know about the situation - other words came to mind first - but I'd certainly accept labelling them as terrorists.

Unless you think that I was saying it's OK for the system to rule against civilians who kill cops but not to rule against terrorists who kill cops.

It would make sense to point out that the dallas shooters were terrorists, not civlians, if I tried to defend them by calling them civilians, not terrorists, but, I didn't do that. When I was talking about it being good that civilians killing cops face justice for doing so, I meant just about any non-cop who had ever killed a cop, not just those who commit terrorist acts. It's easy to figure that out from my post, and from there, it's idiotic to act like I'm trying to label the dallas shooters with a more peaceful label than they deserve (which is what you seem to think I was doing). If terrorists are or can be civilians (which I believe is at least possible given their respective definitions), it's obvious that they'd be one of the worst subsets of "civilians" or any larger group they belong to, and that if I think civilians in general should face justice, I think terrorists should face justice too, even if I think civilian and terrorist aren't mutually exclusive in a semantic sense.

The main thrust of my post was that I agreed with what you said, but that I wanted to balance it by pointing out that your concern regarding indifference/happiness towards the death of cops can be an issue for civilians who are victims of cops as well. There are people who side will side with the cops on just about anything too.

If you're going to respond to someone, try and consider what they actually said. I thought I responded to the general thrust of your post instead of nitpicking little things in my first post, but I felt like this time I needed to go into detail in order to explain what I said.

I will reiterate that I don't disagree with you on the specific issue, but I felt like I put some thought into what I posted, and I'm annoyed that you responded by pointing out errors that I don't believe existed and that did exist in your first post. I know that simply calling something "serious discussion" is not a requirement for every post to be extremely rigorously thought out, but I don't think you showed any respect for the idea that we should be taking anything others say seriously.

Edited July 9, 2016 by PP UP

[Hli Tshiab]

Don't worry guys, MORE gun control will solve this. I mean cops are racist so only they should have guns right? That makes sense right?

Sarcasm aside, there seems to be a lot of hate of White people as of late. Social Medias all about "Who cares if the white cops died" or "Woot cops" and stuff if that sort. People are totally not getting that innocent people died, but instead focusing on things that will get them what they want.

More gun control won't solve the want to murder, but it's something I guess. I wish that they would focus on why this happened and later try to solve it so there would be less future deaths. For a killer, they will find ways to kill other people because they're killers. It might be that gun control will only make things worst for the weak, like old people and maybe kids to the unarmed. Of course the ideal world is that without gun, but to people it is that having a gun means you're safer in this world of now.

With the recent two deaths, it seems like there's even more hate with the cops, because yes it is civilians dying. I think that cops who are there just for the job, are quite power-abusive and cruel because the job is all about making a quota or getting money to them. Yes there are those like @Ericaofrenais who have people who go into the job to uphold justice because that's what they love and want. It's hard to see any of them as good, but know that they will probably be the first person you call if something really bad happens.

Now for the racism from cops, I heard that it's hard not to be racist (Tho everyone is a little bit racist) because of the work that they have to do. An example is having a cop working in the bad area where there consists mainly of one race, often Blacks but there's a decent quantity of Asians from what I know. So if you're surround by a group of people for an extended period of time and have to see them often do bad things, then you unknowingly start to hate and despise them. I don't remember what it's called, but it had something to do with my Holocaust class but I don't remember much so sorry about that.

Not to defend the cops completely, because there are those that are good and those that are bad, but yet I am not defending all races as well.

It is understandable that culture does play into what a group of people may be perceived as, although it may not be true for all of the individuals of said group.

From my understanding there are things that a group is perceived as because of culture, but yet there are those working hard to change that but they can't do it alone by themselves. So I believe the best thing to do at this point is to try and understand the culture of the civilians and also that of law enforcement, without media BS, because we need to understand where everyone is coming from.

Edit: OCD spelling fixes + grammar, etc and yes it bothers me that much! Also removed note, because I don't think it's necessary anymore.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Hli Tshiab

[eclipse]

My condolences to all the families involved, in all three incidents. IIRC, a couple of civilians were injured in the Dallas scuffle (source: CNN, but I'm not sure if the videos are appropriate, hence the lack of link). I think the Dallas shooting was unwarranted, because the Texas police had nothing to do with the shootings in Louisiana and Minnesota.

However, I've revised my stance on body cameras because of this, and think that they should be implemented nationwide. It's thanks to today's technology that the public even knows about the events in Louisiana/Minnesota.

[Crysta]

I don't care if not every single BLM member doesn't condemn this; that's on them, not BLM.

There's always a cabal of crazies within every group, BLM included. I think it's pretty self-evident that this is horrible to most of them and I'm gradually getting more annoyed that the crazies are getting more attention now and apparently it's reflecting on the movement as a whole; I'm certain such a group needs to exist in order to have any awareness about unethical policing at all (that and YouTube lol).

Edited July 9, 2016 by Crysta