Are children characters generally worth using?

[Quirino]

A few chapters further Velouria has indeed surpassed Keaton in all stats except speed. I've also been using Felicia!Forrest (reclassed to sorcerer) because I felt like I needed another magic user, but he has been average so far (really likeable nonetheless). For future playthroughs I'll definitely check out Ophelia, Shiro and Midori. In fact, I've done Midori's paralogue in both Birthright and Conquest, but during the paralogue she didn't strike me as amazing. But Velouria has been particularly amazing. I'd still classify her as Keaton clone in my playthrough, but my Keaton's a beast (no pun intended) so that's a positive!

[Inference]

Soliel is less dumb broken than Ophelia but she's still pretty stupid. Personal + inherited base + growths generally let her bump the gen 2 master ninja speed cap/berserker Str cap with inherent 1-2 sol, xander bulk in her personal, with inherent damage stack,and breaker stack.

Honestly, you explained just about everything with 'Master Ninja'. I've had Felicia straight up maul endgame with Master Ninja from Kaze marriage after an earlygame dip in Hero and a midgame dip in the Cav. tree via Peri, so I'm fully aware of the amount of destruction a skill-stacked Master Ninja causes. But I am ignorant in the way of Soleil, since I rarely use her father.

In general, Conquest really rewards 1-2 ranged enemy phase powerhouses, so the few that can do it really well tend to be among the best overall units in the game.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Inference

[joshcja]

Honestly, you explained just about everything with 'Master Ninja'. I've had Felicia straight up maul endgame with Master Ninja from Kaze marriage after an earlygame dip in Hero and a midgame dip in the Cav. tree via Peri, so I'm fully aware of the amount of destruction a skill-stacked Master Ninja causes. But I am ignorant in the way of Soleil, since I rarely use her father.

In general, Conquest really rewards 1-2 ranged enemy phase powerhouses, so the few that can do it really well tend to be among the best overall units in the game.

Pretty much.

Laslow is just head and shoulders over his MN competition and Soliel is head and shoulders over Laslow.

Edited July 26, 2016 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

Ryoma's the definition of "the best defense is a good offense". He uses a combination of high avoid, enough bulk to survive a few hits, vantage+killing power, and astra filling the dual guard gauge that when put together, statistically actually make him fairly reliable at not dying. I was fairly conservative with using Ryoma earlier in my first BR Lunatic run (mainly because he's too powerful) but when chapter 23 hit I decided to just go "fuck it" and unleashed him quite liberally. His effective durability is actually pretty good and can be used in a defensive manner. I played through 25 the long, tank way as well, and he filled a tank role pretty well.

Given Fates' RNG being not nearly as kind to dodgetanking as previous games... personally, I'm suspicious that he won't live up to the god of war everyone and their grandma hypes him up to be.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[The Draco Knight]

A few chapters further Velouria has indeed surpassed Keaton in all stats except speed. I've also been using Felicia!Forrest (reclassed to sorcerer) because I felt like I needed another magic user, but he has been average so far (really likeable nonetheless). For future playthroughs I'll definitely check out Ophelia, Shiro and Midori. In fact, I've done Midori's paralogue in both Birthright and Conquest, but during the paralogue she didn't strike me as amazing. But Velouria has been particularly amazing. I'd still classify her as Keaton clone in my playthrough, but my Keaton's a beast (no pun intended) so that's a positive!

It's ironic that your Velouria wasn't able to surpass keaton in speed since, in general, It will be the stat that she will have higher than her father.

Anyway, Ophelia is perhaps the best magic unit in the game since she has a personal skill that will boost her critical rate by just having at least 3 tones in her inventory and a poweful personal tome. She

has also good stats in general.

Soliel is less dumb broken than Ophelia but she's still pretty stupid. Personal + inherited base + growths generally let her bump the gen 2 master ninja speed cap/berserker Str cap with inherent 1-2 sol, xander bulk in her personal, with inherent damage stack,and breaker stack.

Even if Ophelia is very powerful, I wouldn't call her "broken": yes, she kills everything she touches, but, like other mages, she is very fragile and can be killed very easily, especially in CQ, where the enemies actually have decent hit rate.

[RoyLKing]

Eh, I haven't gotten much into PvP.

As I've said, this is how I personally experienced it and from my personal experience, Kiragi was basically Takumi (how that was possible, I don't know and I don't care enough to check) but without his personal weapon, which in Fates sadly translates to 'less useful' (see my notes on Siegbert and Forrest). I wish it was different, I really do. But I don't want to rant about me being anti-Royal, anti-Takumi, or my anti-Royal bias again. I've done that enough now.

As a unit, I can only say that he may be good, but I didn't see much of his potential during my time playing Birthright and the one time I actually bothered marrying some poor girl to Takumi (it was Oboro, the poor thing). Maybe, I should have left him out of my list like I did with Nina and Soleil. Sorry.

The reason why I even said that first to begin with about PvP because PvP has lots of strong units and Kiragi is able to one shot/one round those because of his power.

You probably messed up somewhere with your breeding.

Also, some of your reasoning why some kids are good or bad is bad. Shiro is comparable to his father, his father has lots of strength and speed, while shiro is more balanced than his father, so they're comparable.

[joshcja]

Even if Ophelia is very powerful, I wouldn't call her "broken": yes, she kills everything she touches, but, like other mages, she is very fragile and can be killed very easily, especially in CQ, where the enemies actually have decent hit rate.

That's true for a badly built Ophelia she's a pretty solid mage even with no investment. With invest though....

Inherent vantage+LoD with bowbreaker and gate to force sub 10% hitrates on the 3 range weapon users. 1 hp Ophelia can just casually stroll through maps up to and including lunatic ch28.

Edit: General notes for using kids to avoid "worse than dad" syndrome.

1: In Conquest unless its an early kid like diviner!Nina or Cav!Dwyer, or a late utility kid like Niles!Shigure use both parents heavily to stack as much onto the kids bases as possible and get the kiddo around 20/1 or 20/5. It's a nice add on of +4-6 to all stats and is a good way to cover a kids weaknesses via reclassing the parents for big big adds. In birthroute go low man and get the kids right before ch23 for an easy everything.

2. Stack growths/class sets from the mothers side, compensating for weaknesses is something you do via base inheritence.

3. Build the kid for a specific role, sometimes you want redundancy or a stronger version of the parent but avoid overlap when you can.

Edited July 26, 2016 by joshcja

[saisymbolic]

Given Fates' RNG being not nearly as kind to dodgetanking as previous games... personally, I'm suspicious that he won't live up to the god of war everyone and their grandma hypes him up to be.

I can attest to that. Ryoma is good—but he is only human—and he has failed me before. And the RNGoddes is a cruel, scornful mistress. All it takes is a well-placed lance hit and he is done-zo. Lancebreaker helps but, as you say, with the way RNG is with 1%-2% hits landing literally half of the time, I would rather take a character built for defense like Shiro, Benny and Xander and place them on the front line, than sacrifice Ryoma because I was overconfident in his abilities..

But that's just me.

As for children, it depends. My first playthrough of CQ had Effie!Percy, Camilla!Ignatius and Elise!Ophelia were my MVP units. Percy hit hard. Ignatius hit hard. Ophelia hit hard.

Edited July 26, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Shadow Mir]

I can attest to that. Ryoma is good—but he is only human—and he has failed me before. And the RNGoddes is a cruel, scornful mistress. All it takes is a well-placed lance hit and he is done-zo. Lancebreaker helps but, as you say, with the way RNG is with 1%-2% hits landing literally half of the time, I would rather take a character built for defense like Shiro, Benny and Xander and place them on the front line, than sacrifice Ryoma because I was overconfident in his abilities..

But that's just me.

As for children, it depends. My first playthrough of CQ had Effie!Percy, Camilla!Ignatius and Elise!Ophelia were my MVP units. Percy hit hard. Ignatius hit hard. Ophelia hit hard.

On top of that, I don't think Vantage is all that and a bag of chips either - unless the attacker was low enough on health that they'd die before they got to attack or you get lucky with a critical hit, the enemy gets a shot at a unit that has one foot in the grave. That means Vantage just plain flunks the test by my standards.

[saisymbolic]

On top of that, I don't think Vantage is all that and a bag of chips either - unless the attacker was low enough on health that they'd die before they got to attack or you get lucky with a critical hit, the enemy gets a shot at a unit that has one foot in the grave. That means Vantage just plain flunks the test by my standards.

Vantage is really situational for that exact reason. I tend to take it off my units and replace it with something else. Vantage works for Miracle-build Midori and other PVP stuff but I just don't find it that useful; the units that have it are the ones that I'm going to be healing because they are frail so it makes having Vantage moot.

Now, I will admit my favorite combo in PoR/RD was a Halberdier equipped with Wrath + Vantage + Killer Lance but we have come a looong way from those times.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i can say that I have seen Ryouma and his swordmaster ilk die more often then Xander and his horse ilk, or more tanky people like knights.

yeah i know personal experience, but dodge tanking is not the end all to be all unless your facing 0% on the enemy phase.

granted i have solo hoshido's last two chapters with ryouma/avatar.

[Inference]

It's ironic that your Velouria wasn't able to surpass keaton in speed since, in general, It will be the stat that she will have higher than her father.

Anyway, Ophelia is perhaps the best magic unit in the game since she has a personal skill that will boost her critical rate by just having at least 3 tones in her inventory and a poweful personal tome. She

has also good stats in general.

Even if Ophelia is very powerful, I wouldn't call her "broken": yes, she kills everything she touches, but, like other mages, she is very fragile and can be killed very easily, especially in CQ, where the enemies actually have decent hit rate.

Yeah, that is absolutely not how you use Ophelia. Her critical hit rate has nothing to do with her performance in the main game.

What sets her apart from other mages is her extremely high magic cap, making her the most solid investment of resources (Spirit Dusts, Magic Tonics, forged Nosferatu, etc.) with the ability to OHKO just about everything on the enemy phase from recruitment with Nosferatu and a Sorc pair-up. A Sorc Avatar pair-up mitigates the hit drop from WTD, making her effectively invincible in most chapters. Even if she misses every once in a while, Vantage allows her to get the drop on an enemy seeking to finish her off by allowing her to OHKO them instead, on top of building Shield Gauge for even more chances to live and kill when she shouldn't.

To put things in perspective, she's probably the only Sorc that stands a chance of getting to S-rank in tomes because of how much combat she'll naturally be facing.

Critical-based builds are probably for PVP and are unreliable and suboptimal at best. Ophelia is a pure damage tank and boss-killer in the main game.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Inference

[Shadow Mir]

Vantage is really situational for that exact reason. I tend to take it off my units and replace it with something else. Vantage works for Miracle-build Midori and other PVP stuff but I just don't find it that useful; the units that have it are the ones that I'm going to be healing because they are frail so it makes having Vantage moot.

Now, I will admit my favorite combo in PoR/RD was a Halberdier equipped with Wrath + Vantage + Killer Lance but we have come a looong way from those times.

I'd have to agree that Vantage has definitely seen better days - hell, I'd go so far as to say that this game is the worst for Vantage since there's just not much for it to work with any more. Low HP in general doesn't help matters.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Inference]

It's funny how you insist that Vantage is terrible despite the post just above yours possibly listing the greatest Vantage user in all of Fates.

Vantage probably doesn't do much for anyone who can't one-shot the enemy in return, as they'd still be taking the hit, but for a Sorc with Nosferatu and extremely high damage, it's immortality.

[Shadow Mir]

It's funny how you insist that Vantage is terrible despite the post just above yours possibly listing the greatest Vantage user in all of Fates.

Vantage probably doesn't do much for anyone who can't one-shot the enemy in return, as they'd still be taking the hit, but for a Sorc with Nosferatu and extremely high damage, it's immortality.

Maybe because if it needs that much investment to work, it shows just how much it's fallen in the first place.

[joshcja]

Maybe because if it needs that much investment to work, it shows just how much it's fallen in the first place.

It takes about as much to build VNos or VloD on a parent as it does to buy a brave weapon, and with kids its a Bogo sale breaking it down to 4-5k a pop on setup cost per unit, and considering that ophelia vomits goodies and forrest just hands you 5k... yeah it's closer to 2-2.5k per unit.

Dirt cheap and spammable.

Also Ryoma really is as immortal as thor makes him sound in birthroute and rev. It's pretty stupid for a completely free unit.

Edited July 27, 2016 by joshcja

[Dark Holy Elf]

Slight tangent: joshcja, could you possibly try to use fewer abbreviations in your posts? I've played and read about this game a lot, and even I had to puzzle for a while to figure out what "VloD" is, for instance. I can't imagine what it must be like for readers who don't know the game that well. I enjoy reading your take on things or I wouldn't make this request!

I'd have to agree that Vantage has definitely seen better days - hell, I'd go so far as to say that this game is the worst for Vantage since there's just not much for it to work with any more. Low HP in general doesn't help matters.

While I tend to find Vantage a touch overhyped, this certainly isn't its worst appearance. In Radiant Dawn it only even kicked in speed% of the time so it wasn't even remotely reliable; it was functionally just a (highly situational) avoid booster.

[Augestein]

While I tend to find Vantage a touch overhyped, this certainly isn't its worst appearance. In Radiant Dawn it only even kicked in speed% of the time so it wasn't even remotely reliable; it was functionally just a (highly situational) avoid booster.

I actually find the 1/2 hp to be a happy medium. It's not stupid like PoR in terms of power, but it's not kinda useless like RD. The best thing I found with it in RD was putting it on a unit with cancel and hoping both activated. With it made how it is here, you can rely on it to be there for you, and calculate that , dual strikes/guards and ensure that your unit will kill what it needs to, and block what it needs to as well.

In Awakening though, Vantage wasn't overhyped too much I thought. Vengeance / Vantage was what people hyped up, and that was mainly because of its x2 proc rate meaning that all a person needed in theory was 50 skill to guarantee a proc. Or 46 with a rally skill, or 42 with skill and spectrum or 40 with a tonic and the former. Slap on maybe Rightful King and you'd need 30 (a skill that's rather dubious to use in most cases I'll admit). That's not even counting the bonus skill you'd get from a pair up either. Considering that this proc can pretty much wipe anything off the map for a double strike constantly procing skill, it's pretty absurd. Especially if you use brave weapons. I don't think there are many enemies that can survive 2 procs of Vengeance from half hp. Gets even worse when you consider dual strikes.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Augestein

[DragonFlames]

I actually find the 1/2 hp to be a happy medium. It's not stupid like PoR in terms of power, but it's not kinda useless like RD. The best thing I found with it in RD was putting it on a unit with cancel and hoping both activated. With it made how it is here, you can rely on it to be there for you, and calculate that , dual strikes/guards and ensure that your unit will kill what it needs to, and block what it needs to as well.

In Awakening though, Vantage wasn't overhyped too much I thought. Vengeance / Vantage was what people hyped up, and that was mainly because of its x2 proc rate meaning that all a person needed in theory was 50 skill to guarantee a proc. Or 46 with a rally skill, or 42 with skill and spectrum or 40 with a tonic and the former. Slap on maybe Rightful King and you'd need 30 (a skill that's rather dubious to use in most cases I'll admit). That's not even counting the bonus skill you'd get from a pair up either. Considering that this proc can pretty much wipe anything off the map for a double strike constantly procing skill, it's pretty absurd. Especially if you use brave weapons. I don't think there are many enemies that can survive 2 procs of Vengeance from half hp. Gets even worse when you consider dual strikes.

I found Vantage on a high speed unit like Mia or Naesale to still be pretty powerful back in RD, to be honest.

In Awakening, however, Vantage only ever saw use in the Army of Shadow challenge. Otherwise, once my units hit their caps, it was pretty much made moot. In Fates, Vantage only helps you if the RNG likes you enough, which in my case is an automatic 'no', since the RNG in Fates has done nothing but screw me over every chance that it got. To list off a few things that have become the norm over the course of my playthroughs:

• missing in critical moments, creating my hesitation to use low-skill/hit units like Charlotte, Nyx (in her case, it makes me really sad), Rhajat, Hinata, Peri, Leo or Arthur, who have time and again proven to me that you cannot rely on them in any tight situation.
• getting hit everytime, no matter the enemies' hit rate, which, in combination with the former, gave rise to my refusal to ever use Azura again
• crits and skills simply refusing to proc or proc pointlessly, like when the enemy would have died anyway

All of which is exactly why I still fail to see Ryoma's supposed 'immortality' to this day, even with a 'proper' setup.

Speaking of setups:

How do you set up the dumb-broken Ophelia? I understand that Vantage+forged Nosferatu play a role, but what about her mother, pair-up partner(s) and other skills? I'm asking because I wanted to try her out on my next Conquest playthrough.

Edited July 30, 2016 by DragonFlames

[Shadow Mir]

While I tend to find Vantage a touch overhyped, this certainly isn't its worst appearance. In Radiant Dawn it only even kicked in speed% of the time so it wasn't even remotely reliable; it was functionally just a (highly situational) avoid booster.

I actually find the 1/2 hp to be a happy medium. It's not stupid like PoR in terms of power, but it's not kinda useless like RD. The best thing I found with it in RD was putting it on a unit with cancel and hoping both activated. With it made how it is here, you can rely on it to be there for you, and calculate that , dual strikes/guards and ensure that your unit will kill what it needs to, and block what it needs to as well.

In Awakening though, Vantage wasn't overhyped too much I thought. Vengeance / Vantage was what people hyped up, and that was mainly because of its x2 proc rate meaning that all a person needed in theory was 50 skill to guarantee a proc. Or 46 with a rally skill, or 42 with skill and spectrum or 40 with a tonic and the former. Slap on maybe Rightful King and you'd need 30 (a skill that's rather dubious to use in most cases I'll admit). That's not even counting the bonus skill you'd get from a pair up either. Considering that this proc can pretty much wipe anything off the map for a double strike constantly procing skill, it's pretty absurd. Especially if you use brave weapons. I don't think there are many enemies that can survive 2 procs of Vengeance from half hp. Gets even worse when you consider dual strikes.

Far as I'm concerned, trying to use Vantage in Fates is tantamount to playing Russian roulette because of low HP - attacking first doesn't mean much if you're risking death if you don't kill your attacker with your one preemptive strike. This generally wasn't as common in Awakening. While it wasn't reliable in RD, I still saw it as pretty good there. Edited July 30, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[DragonFlames]

Far as I'm concerned, trying to use Vantage in Fates is tantamount to playing Russian roulette because of low HP - attacking first doesn't mean much if you're risking death if you don't kill your attacker with your one preemptive strike. This generally wasn't as common in Awakening. While it wasn't reliable in RD, I still saw it as pretty good there.

I am in agreement.

[joshcja]

Speaking of setups:

How do you set up the dumb-broken Ophelia? I understand that Vantage+forged Nosferatu play a role, but what about her mother, pair-up partner(s) and other skills? I'm asking because I wanted to try her out on my next Conquest playthrough.

That's pretty much it, nos, light forge thuunder or flibberdilibber and gate is all she really needs to be broken. splash LoD later for more broken. If you want you can push her over 100 flat damage but that's only used for pseudo-routing ch28 for shits and giggles.

Just actually use Odin + his wife (+mag MU or draco elise) heavily and she turns out terrorblade thaks to her absurd stats + inherited stats. You use wyvern!Elise to pass not utter dogshit Hp/Def bases and because... Wyvern Elise with a bolt axe heartseeker and skill books is pretty spectacular destruction. Also you get to unlock effies true potential, a pure pairup bot to give Elise access to the glory that is General Bolt Axe. (This is actually useful in places I swear)

Get Ophelia after ch 14/15 and build to like, 20/x in her paralouge, then just watch the blood flow. It's not really complicated.

Edited July 31, 2016 by joshcja

[Petersheikah]

From my experience, Selkie turned out to be great in all 4 of my playthroughs. I recommend Setsuna or Hinoka as a mother. Shiro is great too. He inherits Ryoma's great growths. He's fine even with a bad mother. Midori is absolutely insane if you put enough effort in her. Azura and Mozu are the best mothers for her.

In Conquest I'd say go for Percy (everyone says he's great, but I have no experience with him), Nina (whe makes a great Shining Bow Adventurer with a magic mother, but I feel like Anna's better in that role) and you mustn't miss Ophelia. She's a crit monster. I recomment making Elise her mother.

I like maxing out stats, so I often use children to get those higher caps. I feel like they are more customizable than their parents, and that's what I like about them.

As for Avoid tanks, I'd say in general they are not reliable. An exception are female children. Azura/Setsuna!Rhajat/Selkie/Midori are absolutely broken as swordmasters. Get them Awakening, Vantage, Astra and Death Blow and they'll be untouchable. With Hagakure's +20 avoid and a speed cap around 45 (with the statues) they'll easily get to 120 avoid. The only enemies that could hit them are Ninja, but with the Double Katana their hit rates would be incredibly low most of the time. If they get hit, Awakening boosts their crit and avoid by 30.

My Azura!Rhajat has over 50 speed with pairups. She's godlike when there are lots of enemies that use the same weapon type, like in Shigure's chapter.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Petersheikah