Sun and Moon Competitive Discussion

[Espinosa]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-484978229Not a

Not a good game, but i won't lie i went super hysteric everytime i click Hyperspace Fury

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[Zanarkin]

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[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-484978229

Messed up

[Deltre]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-484978229

Messed up

Good lord Hoopa-U is busted. I only played like 15 games of ORAS OU and after seeing that I'm glad I wasn't around for this monster lmao.

So my interpretation of the (Singles) metagame is as follows. In Gen 5, we had Weather Wars. In Gen 6, we had Stall Wars. And in Gen 7, I'm convinced we're going to have Turf Terrain Wars. I'd be really interested to hear some VGC perspective on this since I know very little about competitive VGC, but here's my reasoning as it applies to singles. Basically, all these new [terrain] Surge abilities open up totally new playstyles that just weren't available before in previous gens. From the games that I've played, I'd say the general effectiveness is as follows: Lele>Bulu>Fini>Koko.

Tapu Lele is in itself a completely busted mon with incredible offenses, true, but Psychic Terrain is icing on the cake. This field effect synergizes incredibly well with all offensive playstyles that tend to rely on fast powerful attackers that may not have the best defenses. The team I posted earlier is a great example of this, meaning that scarfers will definitely see a resurgence as long as Lele is around. Dragon Dancers will also greatly appreciate this ability, because they will no longer be susceptible to mons such as Weavile, Azu, Conk, etc. after setting up. In turn, this means that Psychic Terrain + Speed [boosts] will usually spell GG in a wide variety of situations. Sharpedo is another mon that greatly appreciates this ability, for similar reasons. The only true response to speed will be even higher speed when facing an optimally built Tapu Lele squad, and for this reason I can say very confidently that Tapu Lele is going to be suspected, and probably banned. Other playstyles just can't match up; although Specs is the most splashable set you can easily run CM to smash Stall and Balance while still preserving the Terrain for a late game sweep.

Tapu Bulu and by extension Grassy Terrain comes in at number two, and is in my mind the most versatile Terrain of them all. While Grass isn't an amazing typing to boost, it does allow Tapu Bulu to hit things insanely hard with STAB Wood Hammer. The more important aspect here, and the reason this effect gets #2 in my mind is the amazing defensive utility this terrain has. All grounded mons receive 6.25% recovery per turn, in addition to cutting the damage from Ground attacks in half. When used correctly, this is insanely powerful in ways that I don't think many players have fully realized. For example, a grounded utility mon can now recover 12.5% per turn, and shrug off the ever common ground attack unless your name is Heatran. Personally, I've been stacking this with Rain which allows for some absolutely hilarious scenarios, such as Mega Metagross only being weak to Ghost/Dark, and also discovering a new favorite spinner of mine, Rain Dish Tentacruel. Tentacruel not only synergizes very well with Bulu Boy, but under ideal circumstance is outright unkillable gaining an absurd 18.75% of its health per turn, 37.5% if you run Protect, and only being weak to Electric. Offensively, I've also managed to pair Bulu with SubSeed Serperior to amazing effect. Again, while Grass isn't an amazing typing by any means, the defensive bonuses are so great that if you build your team to take full advantage of it, you'll have a very easy time despite the fact that your opponent will also be gaining the passive recovery. The offensive benefits are just extra, IMO. I guess this guy is probably gross on Stall too, but I hate stall and I'm not testing that theory lol.

Tapu Koko is overrated as hell, and overall I now think it's a worse mon than Fini, but as far as Terrain goes, I feel that I should mention it first because it has potential depending on whether or not Mega Manectric gets released soon. The biggest problem with Electric Terrain is that it boosts a type that almost every team will have an immunity to; Electric. Tapu Koko hits like a wet noodle if it can't abuse Terrain Boosted Thunder[bolt], and even then it needs a Life Orb to do any significant work on its own. Calm Mind is decent, but unless Tapu Koko itself is doing the cleaning you rarely want to let it go down just to break through a core that's giving you trouble. Another huge issue I see is that Tapu Koko suffers from a severe lack of viable partners, unlike the other Terrain Setters. Raikou and of all things Jolteon (pre-bank, I'm not a madman lol) are probably the best partners as of right now, and they're checked by the same things for the most part. Raikou and Jolteon at least have the option of blowing by Alolawak with Shadow Ball, but ehhhh. Alolan-Raichu seems like it might be okay on paper, but since it's defensively made of paper, I just can't see it in a tier with so much viable priority, and again, it doesn't hit hard without Thunder[bolt]. It also suffers from a similar problem as Gen 5 Sun vs. Rain where one weather countered the other. In this case, Bulu teams counter Koko teams. On its own, Tapu Koko does okay I suppose, but the reason this rates so lowly for me is a lack of viable team options. If someone has thought of something that I have not, feel free to correct me.

Tapu Fini is the last setter, but I can't really say that it's the worst. The big reason in my mind to have this girl is to disrupt other Terrain and annoy the hell out of Stall. Without status to fall back on, Stall really does not appreciate dealing with most setup sweepers. Coincidentally, Tapu Fini herself has several ways that it can frustrate the hell out of Stall all on her own, with Taunt+Natures Madness or a Calm Mind set. In fact, I fail to see how Stall handles this girl at all, actually, between her disruptive abilities and potential Defog support, all while being able to murder M-Sableye. She finds a nice spot on balance teams, who appreciate the status immunity greatly allowing you to set up without fear on many passive mons. 50% damage reduction against Dragon Attacks isn't that great, but I suppose it means that Ttar walls the Lati's even harder, and I guess Bisharp can actually switch in to non HP-Fire variants lol.

This is all just opinion of course, but I can say with certainty that I'm not too far off the mark here. Terrain Teams will be the driving force behind this Meta, at least when/if things settle down a bit more. Again, I'd be very interested to hear some VGC/Doubles perspective. I'm thinking Lele could be good because of all the Fake Out usage, but that's really all I know lol.

EDIT: Unrelated but Aegislash is banned! Now if we can just get rid of Pheromosa and Genesect Alakalele kills literally everything :p

Edited November 30, 2016 by Deltre

[Ema Skye]

And Aegislash is gone.

I give Pheromosa one week before it gets banned.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Is gen 6 really Stall Wars more than it a Volt Switch into Breaker Wars?

Although shit like Weavile Stall and Dugtrio Stall existing made sense for it to be called Stall Wars lol

I feel like Terrain except for Lele and Bulu is overrated right now since the squad setting just doesn't work in a way that you can really build around it. Lele Terrain is simply extremely strong, while Bulu Terrain is just generally good. Koko with a squad built under Terrain abuse would probably brick against Hippowdon or something

Like overall i think the meta of Gen 7 is going to be a really generic "strong mons vs strong mons". While Tapu do bring team support just by switching in, they are, in essence is just that: a really strong mon

Also i'm still not sure what is dumber, the fact that smogon decided to drop down obviously busted shit for no reason to repeat Deoxys Skymin Darkrai Gen 5 again, or the fact that Aegislash is actually much more healthy than Hoopa and Landorus

Edited November 30, 2016 by JSND

[Deltre]

The Stall Wars was a bit tongue in cheek :p like I said I didn't play much ORAS OU, but I kid you not it was Chansey/Sable/Talon stall every single time lmao.

I don't think that every top tier team will need to be built around Terrain by any means. There were good non-weather teams in BW too, I just think that you can do a lot more if you plan accordingly and incorporate Terrain into your strategy. For example, Grassy Terrain reduces the need to have dedicated ground switch-ins since EQ hits like a pillow so long as GT is active and your name isn't Heatran. Incidentally, I think that Terrain Extender is incredibly good on Tapu Bulu since Landorus (both formes), Garchomp, and Excadrill are so omnipresent; Lando-T in particular is completely neutered by GT. Not to mention all the mons that rely on ground coverage for SE damage. Basically, I feel like these abilities allow for a lot more flexibility with team structure in ways that we haven't seen before.

I just thought of this, but maybe PZ-Electric could pair well with Tapu Koko + Electric Terrain. PZ already suffers from severe lack of counterplay under the right conditions, and now it's even better since Shadow Ball isn't as useful anymore (on non-ghost sets obv) so you can freely run Tri-Attack/HP Fire/Recover if you need that extra coverage. Specs Specs Adaptability Thunderbolts? OML that sounds insane.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Yeah i played late ORAS and people basically spammed the Weavile Stall Amon-Sable-Skarm-Bliss-Quag squad

The tier is hellish to climb

[Jiac]

I'm running a Toxic Salazzle with Nasty Plot. Should I run Sludge Bomb/Wave or Venoshock on it?

If I Toxic them I get double damage, but at the same time getting a check/switch prediction I get a free set-up.

Would like to add-on that I have another Pokemon on the team that can Toxic as well, which may be a reason to keep Venoshock if Salazzle herself can't set it up.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Jiegg

[Deltre]

I'm running a Toxic Salazzle with Nasty Plot. Should I run Sludge Bomb/Wave or Venoshock on it?

If I Toxic them I get double damage, but at the same time getting a check/switch prediction I get a free set-up.

Would like to add-on that I have another Pokemon on the team that can Toxic as well, which may be a reason to keep Venoshock if Salazzle herself can't set it up.

I'd go with Wave, since it can be pretty tough to get multiple free turns like that unless your opponent doesn't play around Salazzle very well. If you can get Toxic Spikes on your team though, Venoshock could be alright. Sadly Salazzle is made of paper and doesn't have any immunities so it's hard to Toxic + Venoshock without team support.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Venoshock is kinda eh in a tier where Apex is popular, and later down the line i honestly expect Jirachi Magearna and Celesteela to be used way more than they are right now(a lot of time you want to roast them)

Toxic is OK though because Sallazle movepool isn't wide enough that you can't slap it in for free which allows you to do switch in toxic middle finger to something

Speaking of which i legit wonder how long it will took for Tapu Lele. When all is down, its essentially just Hoopa Unbound with worse offensive typing, and worse movepool for being able to lolsupport just by switching in. Its counter is coin flip and mostly Steel types, but theres potential to use it with Mag, Dug, or Ttar which it actually supported somewhat wellIt

Edited December 1, 2016 by JSND

[Ebony]

Hey I'm curious, anyone know what's the "best typing" or Silvally to use? I was looking and saw his moveset apparently includes Draco Meteor, but I don't know if he must be a dragon type to learn it or not.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I think currently Poison Silvally? Thats the only one i manage to make work so far. It really depends on what your intended Parting Shot partner are or what kind of plays you are trying to do with it. I think Grass Fairy and Poison is the most effective ones in my experience

And you dont need the type for DM just become Dragon, get DM from tutor and there you go

[Ema Skye]

He needs to be a Dragon to learn it, but you can switch his type after he learns it and he'll keep it.

[Ebony]

I think currently Poison Silvally? Thats the only one i manage to make work so far. It really depends on what your intended Parting Shot partner are or what kind of plays you are trying to do with it. I think Grass Fairy and Poison is the most effective ones in my experience

And you dont need the type for DM just become Dragon, get DM from tutor and there you go

Poison Silvally? Really? That's actually a surprise. Any reasons why? I haven't tried anything in the SM metagame (don't have SM yet) so I won't know much for a while.

[Thane]

Poison Silvally? Really? That's actually a surprise. Any reasons why? I haven't tried anything in the SM metagame (don't have SM yet) so I won't know much for a while.

My guess would be that not only is Poison a pretty good typing on its own, but it's also a counter to not only the Tapus, but also Pheromosa's (and Buzzwole's) two STABs. Plus, you can't get poisoned by Toxapex.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Thane

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Thats a large part of the reason yeah

Absorbs Toxic Spikes, its a typing that generally baits a lot of important pokemon(Landorus and Heatran) and generally seems threatless, Poison STAB can be used as a makeshift Lele and Bulu Check, and it can survive 2-3 hits from Pheromosa depending on EV spread. It also baits your opponent to go Toxapex on it and in my experience, baiting Toxapex is one of the cheapest mindset win-con in the current meta since its so helpless you can pretty much go Hoopa Unbound/Tapu Lele over and over again

I believe a lot of these would be irrelevant as the meta progress(for example, having Landorus switch in and feeling save in front of Silvally Poison only for you to click Ice Beam is something that will only happen in the first 2 months)

Edited December 2, 2016 by JSND

[Ebony]

Alright I don't wanna ask too many questions but I do want these two answered:

1) Is Silvally viable?

2) Out of the UBs, are there any that are really good? Or at least any that are really bad/not worth using over others?

[Ema Skye]

Silvally is viable, but probably won't be OU. It's moveset is missing a few notable moves and it's stats are just a touch too low. It will probably be the top of UU in Smogon though.

Pheromosa is the best UB pretty much inarguably. It'll no doubt get banned. Once it goes, Celesteela will probably be the best. All of the UBs are viable and worth using, except for Guzzlord. No one is really sure how to use Guzzy.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Pheromosa is broken in Singles for obvious reason(Fast Glass Cannon with Nuke Movepool + U Turn)

Buzzwhole had a niche in its Physical Bulk, but its still kinda wonky right now

Celesteela is absurdly good

Guzzlord kinda sucked. In theory it had a really good bulk but thats about it

Nihilego is basically Froslass. It suicides and set up hazzard, and can do some damage. Its also pretty 'popular' as a Trick Room user

Necrozma(ok this one's not an UB) is used as a tanky SR user who have reliable recovery and Thunder Wave

Kartana is literally Durant. This one is a bit of a base breaker since one part of the fanbase says its pretty good, while a lot of players said it sucks because Durant sucks

I think Silvally is viable. Someone said that its actually really good, but everyone won't figure out exactly why for a long time, but for sure PArting Shot is really good

[Konnor97]

Pheromosa is broken in Singles for obvious reason(Fast Glass Cannon with Nuke Movepool + U Turn)

Buzzwhole had a niche in its Physical Bulk, but its still kinda wonky right now

Celesteela is absurdly good

Guzzlord kinda sucked. In theory it had a really good bulk but thats about it

Nihilego is basically Froslass. It suicides and set up hazzard, and can do some damage. Its also pretty 'popular' as a Trick Room user

Necrozma(ok this one's not an UB) is used as a tanky SR user who have reliable recovery and Thunder Wave

Kartana is literally Durant. This one is a bit of a base breaker since one part of the fanbase says its pretty good, while a lot of players said it sucks because Durant sucks

I think Silvally is viable. Someone said that its actually really good, but everyone won't figure out exactly why for a long time, but for sure PArting Shot is really good

And Xurkitree?

[Deltre]

And Xurkitree?

Xurkitree is BL material. It won't be very good in OU since it's speed is kinda bad and unless you run Z-Hypnosis the only way to really fix that is with a Choice Scarf. It hits really hard but that's honestly about it, everything else is pretty average. I think it's too much for UU though, since there aren't as many viable answers down there.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Deltre

[Ema Skye]

Nihilego has a solid scarf set too. That 103 speed tier is super trollish. It does struggle with Grounds/Steels though but it shows the importance of having a solid rock resist.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Adding to that, on a vacuum Xurkitree is literally Tapu Koko with MUCH less speed.

Like you might think it have 80 more SpA but in reality they have identical damage output on everything except for their Grass coverage(Koko is stronger iirc) and their Ice coverage(Xurk is stronger by a full 50%)

[Espinosa]

Koko does so much damage only when its ability is in effect though. You shouldn't forget that Xurkitree will be activating Beast Boost to further increase its special attack when killing things.