All Female Units cliché/fantasm list.

[WinterOkami]

I agree but like I said it's from a certain male audience perspective.

Edited August 25, 2016 by WinterOkami

[Time the Crestfallen]

We Ninth Church of Azura now?

[Water Mage]

I agree but like I said it's from a certain male audience perspective.

What male perspective?

As Abvora said, Azura's husband has to be someone very patient and encouraging with her.

Not exactly the "ideal woman".

We Ninth Church of Azura now?

Wait, we weren't before? Edited August 26, 2016 by Water Mage

[BrightBow]

Not to mention that when faced with a problem, she has the tendency to advocate an indirect way that harms innocent people. If a tragedy happens somewhere in the world, she would probably tell you to rob a bank so that you have money to donate.

[Time the Crestfallen]

What male perspective?

As Abvora said, Azura's husband has to be someone very patient and encouraging with her.

Not exactly the "ideal woman".

Well, yes, but in the same way that Takumi would need years of therapy before a relationship could really work out, y'know? It kinda gets blown to hell when she pretty much instantly bonds with and trusts the self-insert, circumventing all the issues the developing relationship should logically have.

Not to mention that when faced with a problem, she has the tendency to advocate an indirect way that harms innocent people. If a tragedy happens somewhere in the world, she would probably tell you to rob a bank so that you have money to donate.

First thought:

Azura is Peter and Corrin is Meg.

[Abvora]

Well, yes, but in the same way that Takumi would need years of therapy before a relationship could really work out, y'know? It kinda gets blown to hell when she pretty much instantly bonds with and trusts the self-insert, circumventing all the issues the developing relationship should logically have.

I wouldn't say their relationship is free of issues. She bonds with him pretty quickly, but she still doesn't open up to him fully--he has to walk in on her being hurt by the curse to learn about it in BR, and never learns about it in CQ. She still tries to do things herself rather than letting herself rely on him (again, the curse on BR and the dancer plan on CQ).

Even on REV, the big happy route, her issues are never confronted--in fact, judging by the way she passes the crown off to Corrin to avoid leading herself, she's still suffering from them. So even then, when she trusts him and relies on him the most, she still never has her baggage resolved or has a moment where she decides to try and be more trusting/social.

Not to mention that when faced with a problem, she has the tendency to advocate an indirect way that harms innocent people. If a tragedy happens somewhere in the world, she would probably tell you to rob a bank so that you have money to donate.

Suggest a bad plan one time...

(Seriously, the rest of the time she never suggests a plan that will get innocents killed. If anything she tries to handle it herself and not drag anyone else into it.)

Edited August 26, 2016 by Abvora

[Time the Crestfallen]

I wouldn't say their relationship is free of issues. She bonds with him pretty quickly, but she still doesn't open up to him fully--he has to walk in on her being hurt by the curse to learn about it in BR, and never learns about it in CQ. She still tries to do things herself rather than letting herself rely on him (again, the curse on BR and the dancer plan on CQ).

Even on REV, the big happy route, her issues are never confronted--in fact, judging by the way she passes the crown off to Corrin to avoid leading herself, she's still suffering from them. So even then, when she trusts him and relies on him the most, she still never has her baggage resolved or has a moment where she decides to try and be more trusting/social.

Oh I know, it's hardly a perfect relationship, but it seems a bit too easy considering her backstory and how she acts around almost literally everyone else. But that's more because the entire world revolves around Corrin because mah shōnen tropes than anything to do with Azura

Suggest a bad plan one time...

(Seriously, the rest of the time she never suggests a plan that will get innocents killed. If anything she tries to handle it herself and not drag anyone else into it.)

Well, yes. But at the same time I don't think it's possible to live down the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, to say nothing of the soldiers.

Damn you Conquest, you ruined everything!

Edited August 26, 2016 by Phillius

[Raguna]

Do we even have the Yamato Nadeshiko female character in this game?

I think Reina tries to emulate that but I could be wrong. She is the best listener or so in the army and while someone could make a case for Camila she always gravitates and prefers the big sister yandere role. Which gets to a pretty creepy level when she's talking with Hinoka after a certain battle cause I don't think proving you're suppose to be the only big sister in a war is a legitimate reason to be cross at someone.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Raguna

[Time the Crestfallen]

Do we even have the Yamato Nadeshiko female character in this game?

Mikoto and Kagero.

[NekoKnight]

First thought:

Azura is Peter and Corrin is Meg.

That's...surprisingly apt.

Mikoto and Kagero.

I might add Oboro as a semi-example. While she lacks some of the feminine grace (because of #scaryface), she is still quite feminine (clothing), hard working and protective of the people she cares about. Part of being a Yamato Nadeshiko is a willing subservience to her male authority figures, and it shows in her support of both Takumi and Ryoma.

[Time the Crestfallen]

That's...surprisingly apt.

I don't make off comparisons.

That's...surprisingly apt.

I might add Oboro as a semi-example. While she lacks some of the feminine grace (because of #scaryface), she is still quite feminine (clothing), hard working and protective of the people she cares about. Part of being a Yamato Nadeshiko is a willing subservience to her male authority figures, and it shows in her support of both Takumi and Ryoma.

I guess. She has the attitude of one, but not the look or the hobbies (all I know are art, tea ceremony and bonsai. No idea if sewing counts).

Edited August 26, 2016 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

I don't make off comparisons.

I guess. She has the attitude of one, but not the look or the hobbies (all I know are art, tea ceremony and bansai. No idea if sewing counts).

The traditional values of a proper woman were "good wife, wise mother". So while "feminine grace" is part of being a good wife, I don't think feminine hobbies are a specific requirement. The important thing is that a women looks dignified and cares for her family . Looks are a bit more subjective. I wouldn't say Kagerou really looks the part because it's far from modest, whereas Oboro makes a point in dressing well. Oboro and Mikoto both use weapons that are considered graceful (naginata and bow), so they have that going for them too.

[WinterOkami]

I am done editing the Azura part hope it's a bit more accurate, also about Yamato Nadeshiko.don't you think we could add Caeldori in it ? Or is she too far from it because there is a slight difference between being a perfect person and a perfect wife.

Though I'll have to make more researches on Kagero to see if she fits this place, I would have put Mikoto but we only talk about playable units here.

Edited August 26, 2016 by WinterOkami

[Thane]

Suggest a bad plan one time...

"That one time" was more than enough to make people question her decision-making skills, and for a good reason. She also doesn't stop the real bad guy in Birthright for whatever reason.

From a meta perspective Azura got screwed by the plot and the writers trying way too hard to make her mysterious and intriguing, but in-game she's just a dick.

[WinterOkami]

"That one time" was more than enough to make people question her decision-making skills, and for a good reason. She also doesn't stop the real bad guy in Birthright for whatever reason.

From a meta perspective Azura got screwed by the plot and the writers trying way too hard to make her mysterious and intriguing, but in-game she's just a dick.

I agree.

[B.Leu]

Just one time ? I remember that there's more than that, that one time just so happens to be one the worst.

And most iconic. :p

Eh nice list, and nice find for Ophelia, Charlotte and Orochi !

I wonder what type Kanna would be then ?

So basically, Fiora is a power fantasy for the player then ? Huh, that's rather creepy.

Midori seems like a Mozu 2.0... but without the doomed hometown part; so it's more like Mozu 0.9 after Mozu.

Friendly reminder that tsunderes are evil and should be destroyed.

Edited August 26, 2016 by B.Leu

[NekoKnight]

I am done editing the Azura part hope it's a bit more accurate, also about Yamato Nadeshiko.don't you think we could add Caeldori in it ? Or is she too far from it because there is a slight difference between being a perfect person and a perfect wife.

Though I'll have to make more researches on Kagero to see if she fits this place, I would have put Mikoto but we only talk about playable units here.

I don't think so, she still fits into the "perfect class rep" role. Yamato Nadeshiko are about selfless devotion and modesty (not humble-bragging) paired with an iron will. Caeldori is fanatical about self-improvement, not her service to another.

"That one time" was more than enough to make people question her decision-making skills, and for a good reason. She also doesn't stop the real bad guy in Birthright for whatever reason.

From a meta perspective Azura got screwed by the plot and the writers trying way too hard to make her mysterious and intriguing, but in-game she's just a dick.

You and Samus sure like holding a grudge. Isn't it enough that they felt kinda bad about it? No need to crucify someone for ONE accidental conquest.

Friendly reminder that tsunderes are evil and should be destroyed.

This guy gets it.

Edited August 26, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

Friendly reminder that tsunderes are evil and should be destroyed.

Why? I'd argue that most character tropes aren't inherently bad and that it's all up to the execution. I've seen well-written tsunderes, so I wouldn't write them all off.

Of course, Mary Sues, on the other hand...

I don't think so, she still fits into the "perfect class rep" role. Yamato Nadeshiko are about selfless devotion and modesty (not humble-bragging) paired with an iron will. Caeldori is fanatical about self-improvement, not her service to another.

You and Samus sure like holding a grudge. Isn't it enough that they felt kinda bad about it? No need to crucify someone for ONE accidental conquest.

Damn, you're right. You know something super awkward? The other day I accidentally took over Lithuania while on my way to class. Fortunately, they were pretty chill about it, and their president actually turned out to actually be a monster in disguise, so they're now going to erect a statue in my honor instead of pestering me about the details. I swear, if I hear "did you really have to burn up that orphanage?" one more time I might just get angry.

[Abvora]

"That one time" was more than enough to make people question her decision-making skills, and for a good reason. She also doesn't stop the real bad guy in Birthright for whatever reason.

From a meta perspective Azura got screwed by the plot and the writers trying way too hard to make her mysterious and intriguing, but in-game she's just a dick.

She doesn't stop the real bad guy in Birthright because they never set foot in Valla and they never have time to set foot in Valla. Keep in mind she doesn't know Corrin can travel through water, so she thinks the only way to get people there is through the Canyon, which they don't have time for as they're either: trying to rescue Takumi and Ryoma, or beelining to Nohr's capital to end the war before Nohr's forces crush Hoshido's defenses.

Yes, she's a dick when she knowingly kills herself with her song to save Takumi in BR, save the group from Fort Dragonfall in BR, attempt to exorcise Garon in BR/CQ, weaken Garon/CQ!Takumi so they can beat them in BR/CQ, and free Gunter in REV. One bad deed, which she feels bad about, caused by bad writing, overrides everything good a character ever does, even when she never does it on two of the three routes.

Damn, you're right. You know something super awkward? The other day I accidentally took over Lithuania while on my way to class. Fortunately, they were pretty chill about it, and their president actually turned out to actually be a monster in disguise, so they're now going to erect a statue in my honor instead of pestering me about the details. I swear, if I hear "did you really have to burn up that orphanage?" one more time I might just get angry.

You know what's wrong with this example? The fact the Nohr was already at war with Hoshido. She was supporting an invasion already in progress, not championing for them to start an invasion.

Plus you say their president when it should be my president.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Abvora

[Thane]

She doesn't stop the real bad guy in Birthright because they never set foot in Valla and they never have time to set foot in Valla. Keep in mind she doesn't know Corrin can travel through water, so she thinks the only way to get people there is through the Canyon, which they don't have time for as they're either: trying to rescue Takumi and Ryoma, or beelining to Nohr's capital to end the war before Nohr's forces crush Hoshido's defenses.

Oh, she knows he can't travel through the water, but she DOES know about that ravine. Her top priority should be getting them there, like in Revelation. By saying that they don't have time to go there is like saying that they don't have time to save the world.

Yes, she's a dick when she knowingly kills herself with her song to save Takumi in BR, save the group from Fort Dragonfall in BR, attempt to exorcise Garon in BR/CQ, weaken Garon/CQ!Takumi so they can beat them in BR/CQ, and free Gunter in REV. One bad deed, which she feels bad about, caused by bad writing, overrides everything good a character ever does, even when she never does it on two of the three routes.

And for what? She knows about Anankos, and with Xander dead they can't stop him, and Sumeragi is still running around with the power to blow up cities. Her sacrifice was in vain and she doomed the world, ergo a dick.

You know what's wrong with this example? The fact the Nohr was already at war with Hoshido. She was supporting an invasion already in progress, not championing for them to start an invasion.

Ah yes, of course, that makes it all better. I guess having an active hand in making sure the country you were raised in burns is made easier if you join an already-invading army.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Thane

[Azure Sen]

One bad deed, which she feels bad about, caused by bad writing, overrides everything good a character ever does, even when she never does it on two of the three routes.

Well, yeah, easily condemning the nation she was raised in to a pointless war for the sake of Nohr's royal sibs' peace of mind is generally the kind of thing a character doesn't live down, and honestly the only reason I don't hold it against her more is that she's a walking plot device that only does what she does for the sake of moving the plot forward. I don't remember her actually expressing any regret about her actions in Conquest. Kamui does (in a selfish, backhanded way), but Azura sure doesn't. And even if she did express remorse for it, it doesn't change the fact that she still willingly went along with it.

Why? I'd argue that most character tropes aren't inherently bad and that it's all up to the execution. I've seen well-written tsunderes, so I wouldn't write them all off.

It’s basically Sturgeon’s Law; yes, there are some well-written tsunderes, but most of them are poorly written, irrationally hateful towards the object of their affections, physically assault them at the slightest provocation, and even well-written tsunderes can be grating and awful, honestly. I love Asuka from NGE (who's more of a deconstruction of a tsundere), but even I'll admit that sometimes she can be very cruel and unlikable.

Edited August 26, 2016 by AzureSen

[Abvora]

Oh, she knows he can't travel through the water, but she DOES know about that ravine. Her top priority should be getting them there, like in Revelation.

And for what? She knows about Anankos, and with Xander dead they can't stop him, and Sumeragi is still running around with the power to blow up cities. Her sacrifice was in vain and she doomed the world, ergo a dick.

Ah yes, of course, that makes it all better. I guess having an active hand in making sure the country you were raised in burns is made easier if you join the invading army.

Again, when should they go to the ravine? Immediately after BR starts, they hear that Takumi and Ryoma are missing and set out to rescue them. Immediately after they rescue them, Ryoma directs the army to invade Nohr. Immediately after they start to invade Nohr, they hear how Yukimura is having trouble holding the Nohrian forces off at home, and decide to rush to the capital to assassinate Garon and end the war before they lose. There isn't exactly time for a jaunt to the Canyon in there.

I fail to see how her sacrifice was in vain as, without it, the party would have been dead many times over and then Anankos actually would have won. She doesn't "doom the world"--while she doesn't stop Anankos, the epilogue states the characters lived long and happy lives, so she at least delayed his plans for 50-ish years. Heirs of Fate shows that Siegfried can be used to power up Yato without Xander, so him being dead doesn't really matter since the weapon itself wasn't lost and someday, someone else can pick it up.

A country that exiled and tried to kill her. I'm pretty sure attempting to do that to someone destroys any loyalty they owe you. And it does make a difference in that your example suggested she conquered an uninvolved country on a whim rather than conquered a country involved in the war. One is being evil, the other is part of being at war.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Abvora

[B.Leu]

I agree with Thane, when you know everything about everything, you try to do the maximum, you don't wait that the main character conveniently choose.the DLC path to drop on him ton of info out of freaking nowhere, when you could simple told him/her right from the get go in the other paths.

At best, Azura is dumb, at worst, well...

Why? I'd argue that most character tropes aren't inherently bad and that it's all up to the execution. I've seen well-written tsunderes, so I wouldn't write them all off.

Of course they're not bad, alas, most experiences I had with them were bad, and it's still go on, so the trope is pretty pretty much ruined for me.

When the character in question is a tsundere for the story and not the fetish, like say, Asuka from Evangelion, which is an enormous pile of deconstructions, I shut my trap and applaud though.

Yeah, I know the irony of using Asuka as an example. :p

[Thane]

Again, when should they go to the ravine? Immediately after BR starts, they hear that Takumi and Ryoma are missing and set out to rescue them. Immediately after they rescue them, Ryoma directs the army to invade Nohr. Immediately after they start to invade Nohr, they hear how Yukimura is having trouble holding the Nohrian forces off at home, and decide to rush to the capital to assassinate Garon and end the war before they lose. There isn't exactly time for a jaunt to the Canyon in there.

You really don't see a problem with your reasoning here? Azura had two choices with the knowledge she had at hand: trying to do something that would not lead to a permanent solution or trying to do something that would lead to a permanent solution. She chose the former, when she should've done everything in her power to get them to the ravine. The fate of the world depended on it, so saying that they didn't have time is an odd statement to say the least.

Hell, it's what they do in Revelation, only that in Birthright they start with more allies, not less - why would they suddenly have less time in Birthright?

I fail to see how her sacrifice was in vain as, without it, the party would have been dead many times over and then Anankos actually would have won. She doesn't "doom the world"--while she doesn't stop Anankos, the epilogue states the characters lived long and happy lives, so she at least delayed his plans for 50-ish years. Heirs of Fate shows that Siegfried can be used to power up Yato without Xander, so him being dead doesn't really matter since the weapon itself wasn't lost and someday, someone else can pick it up

But Anankos is still out there, regardless if she delayed it. She could've saved the world, but didn't.

Also, how would Siegbert have been born when you kill Xander in Birthright? It also feels like a bad plan to just expect someone else to deal with that little world-threatening problem on the horizon.

A country that exiled and tried to kill her. I'm pretty sure attempting to do that to someone destroys any loyalty they owe you. And it does make a difference in that your example suggested she conquered an uninvolved country on a whim rather than conquered a country involved in the war. One is being evil, the other is part of being at war.

This is so wrong on so many levels that I don't even know to begin. First of all, Azura states numerous times that she was treated well in Hoshido. Secondly, it was also clear that it was a minority group that led her away and that the Hoshidan siblings had nothing to do with it. Thirdly, being treated poorly does not mean she's justified in conquering an entire innocent nation. Fourthly, no matter how you spin it, the way the conflict is portrayed in Fates is black and white - Nohr is bad while Hoshido is good, so yes, the invasion is evil. They're attacking a country that literally had an anti-aggression barrier up to prevent any kind of conflcit, and Garon did everything in his power to destroy Hoshido, using means that are downright horrific and led to a lot of collateral damage.

It's one thing to disagree on Azura being a dick, but this statement is an exercise in mental gymnastics.

[UNLEASH IT]

Guys, what is a fantasm?