General opinions on fates and how it ranks compared to the series

[ckc22]

So? What's the point of optimizing if it isn't fun? What's the inherent value in optimizing? I agree that the online system is all kinds of broken, but you can pick and choose what parts of it you want to use. The only place the skill buying system is forced on you is in PVP, which Awakening didn't even have to any degree of substance.

1) Awakening had psuedo pvp. Another thing I'm sure no one will credit it for.

2) Optimizing is fun for some people. Especially people who tend to like strategy games. I guess it's good that people can play their unabashed waifu simulator though without any strategic thought.

[shadowofchaos]

1) Awakening had psuedo pvp. Another thing I'm sure no one will credit it for.

2) Optimizing is fun for some people. Especially people who tend to like strategy games. I guess it's good that people can play their unabashed waifu simulator though without any strategic thought.

1) Yes and people pretty much wanted to use that as Pokémon to show how good they are at the game inheritance mechanics despite the fact that optimizing for an AI controlled team that can be beaten with base classes is even more pointless than optimizing for PvP in Fates.

2) Sounds like a personal issue to me. Saying that the system of the predecessor being "deeper" because it was more limited feels like you're faulting a game for not catering to the small niche community you have.

If you're going to go the insults route, we can take shots at the very point of min-maxing in a single player FE game. Especially since grinding is arguably the least optimal thing to do in a strategy game about limited resource management.

Edited September 7, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Alastor15243]

1) Awakening had psuedo pvp. Another thing I'm sure no one will credit it for.

2) Optimizing is fun for some people. Especially people who tend to like strategy games. I guess it's good that people can play their unabashed waifu simulator though without any strategic thought.

1: no one credits them because it was so easy to cheese it was literally impossible to create a team that even had a chance of winning against somebody who knew about brave weapons and galeforce. It was terrible and borderline pointless.

2: Fates allows for optimization too, it just lets you do it over the course of the actual game so you don't have to mindlessly grind.

[ckc22]

Whatever... I'm not getting sucked into this bullshit again.

I forget that this site is always busy falling to their knees for Fates regardless of the facts.

Play your incest waifu simulator.

[NekoKnight]

And so he left, the great arbiter of truth. May he be ever free of contrary opinions.

Anyway, I can say that I'm hopeful for the next Fire Emblem game. Fates has shown they can put great care into many aspects of the game if they want to. With the killing they made off this game, I hope they can be ambitious with the next game. Story expectations will be adjusted accordingly, however.

Edited September 7, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Ebony]

And so he left, the great arbiter of truth. May he be ever free of contrary opinions.

Anyway, I can say that I'm hopeful for the next Fire Emblem game. Fates has shown they can put great care into many aspects of the game if they want to. With the killing they made off this game, I hope they can be ambitious with the next game. Story expectations will be adjusted accordingly, however.

On the other hand, so am I. Cause for all the "bad" it has, it did a lot of good improvements.

We aren't going to see the Avatar system go away I think, so some improvements on customization are something I'm personally hoping for.

[Abvora]

Whatever... I'm not getting sucked into this bullshit again.

I forget that this site is always busy falling to their knees for Fates regardless of the facts.

Play your incest waifu simulator.

Wow, look at the salt.

Back to regular business...

Anyway, I can say that I'm hopeful for the next Fire Emblem game. Fates has shown they can put great care into many aspects of the game if they want to. With the killing they made off this game, I hope they can be ambitious with the next game. Story expectations will be adjusted accordingly, however.

Agreed. Fates made a lot of improvements, and I would love to see the next one improve even more.

[Etrurian emperor]

Whatever... I'm not getting sucked into this bullshit again.

I forget that this site is always busy falling to their knees for Fates regardless of the facts.

Play your incest waifu simulator.

Um, are you talking about a different site perhaps? Serenes is pretty critical on Fates and its not uncommon at all to hear some posters claim they don't have much faith in IS after awakening and Fates.

As for why Awakening doesn't get enough credit for certain things, its worth remembering that a lot of things introduced in Fates were clearly experimental. Because of that not everything that was introduced was done especially well. If you're a person who doesn't like the pair up mechanic in Awakening then it would be weird to credit it for it. Fates on the other hand would deserve praise from that person for addressing exactly why he didn't like pair ups very much.

[Thane]

Anyway, I can say that I'm hopeful for the next Fire Emblem game. Fates has shown they can put great care into many aspects of the game if they want to. With the killing they made off this game, I hope they can be ambitious with the next game. Story expectations will be adjusted accordingly, however.

See, here's where I get worried: wasn't Fates their attempt at being ambitious? Now don't get me wrong, refining what was introduced in Awakening was great, but they spread themselves so thin that it wasn't used to its full potential outside of Conquest.

Whatever they do, I hope they've realized the flaws of Fates' writing and will work on fixing whatever it was that caused such issues to occur in the first place. I'm torn between being cautiously optimistic, hoping they'll further improve the gameplay and own up to how badly they messed up the plot, and cynical, thinking they'll add even more Corrins and Camillas.

[Alastor15243]

Honestly I have very few complaints about Fates in terms of gameplay. I will admit that I felt more invested in the maps themselves back when there was a compelling story backing each of the maps up, but in terms of actual raw gameplay, I only really have a few complaints:

1: The higher-tier weapons, namely the ones that slowly cripple you or force you to spend half of the time with half power, need to be reworked because they're virtually no point in using them over forged weapons that you can get to comparable might with the money it took to buy them.

2: Online needs to be reworked, particularly so that online interaction isn't necessary for certain features while simultaneously game-breaking. I would've preferred it if you were given access to more of your base resources and were given the ability to trade the ones you have for the ones you don't with random NPC merchants, and that you also had the option to do this with real people online, that way you didn't just get tons of free stuff from going online while playing offline meant the resource system was practically useless.

3: Make personal skills better. A lot of them are ridiculously situational or provide nearly no benefit. I think the royal family skills should be roughly the baseline for personal skill power, not the exceptional peak, and the more powerful these personal skills are, the more unique, distinguished and non-exchangeable each unit becomes. Also I think the avatar's personal skill should be tied to their asset and possibly flaw.

[Tangerine]

I'm not saying give Fates no credit. I'm saying people on these forums tend to shit on awakening all day long and act like Fates is the second coming.

lol. I am going to guess you got into the series through Awakening, because nobody who has been around for long could possibly believe that our forum as a whole is biased towards Fates. Let me help you out by supplying a little bit of logic and information from someone who has been around long enough to actually comment on the FE (and SF) community.

1. Our forum has thousands of active users.

2. Said thousands of active users are likely to have differing opinions on a variety of subjects.

3. The people who dislike Awakening are generally not people who love Fates. Our community is pretty split between fans of the older games and fans of the newer games, with some who like them all for what they are.

4. Serenes Forest as a website is 11 years old, we have a very large community of veteran FE fans as a result.

5. Awakening was the first flagship FE title we'd gotten since 2007 and it was a great departure from what the fanbase had come to expect. Hence why there was so much more backlash from said sizable community of veteran FE fans when compared to Fates.

6. They exist in relative harmony these days, people who hate Fates don't post in the Fates section. You know, because that makes sense from a reasonable person's perspective, and they respect us enough to not cause trouble. Veteran fans are typically most active in our social sections.

So there's a few things that might help you understand why making broad and general statements about a large community not only makes you look ridiculous, but will also earn you the ire of the userbase you're constantly generalizing. I hope it allows you to come to the conclusion that posting in a section called "Fire Emblem Fates" to aggressively criticize it is going to result in an outcome you clearly don't want (and somehow don't expect? Hint: Fans of the game are most active in this section).

Good luck in your future postings, young FE fan!

Edited September 7, 2016 by Tangerine

[NekoKnight]

See, here's where I get worried: wasn't Fates their attempt at being ambitious? Now don't get me wrong, refining what was introduced in Awakening was great, but they spread themselves so thin that it wasn't used to its full potential outside of Conquest.

Whatever they do, I hope they've realized the flaws of Fates' writing and will work on fixing whatever it was that caused such issues to occur in the first place. I'm torn between being cautiously optimistic, hoping they'll further improve the gameplay and own up to how badly they messed up the plot, and cynical, thinking they'll add even more Corrins and Camillas.

Ah, but we did get Conquest, didn't we? If they can get at least one game right for gameplay, I'm satisfied.

I don't think the story of Fates was ambitious. I think their marketing was deceptive; promising a great story when their "writing inspiration" didn't even have time to work on the project. It wasn't the greatest story ruined by over extending themselves. It was a mediocre story that they tried to split into 3 games, which made it even worse. It's not "we tried really hard but failed", it's "we said we'd try hard but we didn't really". Mind you, I do think it could have been the greatest story had they followed up on their premise and not shot themselves in the foot by including Revelation/Azura, but it wasn't to be. A genuine effort to make the best product possible, greater than any before is "ambition". An effort to make the most money possible by making the most content with the least amount of work is "greed". Fates falls into the latter category, story-wise.

I suspect we'll have a Birthright tier story in the next game, which is unfortunate but the silver lining is we know IS can make good gameplay when they set their minds to it.

1: The higher-tier weapons, namely the ones that slowly cripple you or force you to spend half of the time with half power, need to be reworked because they're virtually no point in using them over forged weapons that you can get to comparable might with the money it took to buy them.

3: Make personal skills better. A lot of them are ridiculously situational or provide nearly no benefit. I think the royal family skills should be roughly the baseline for personal skill power, not the exceptional peak, and the more powerful these personal skills are, the more unique, distinguished and non-exchangeable each unit becomes. Also I think the avatar's personal skill should be tied to their asset and possibly flaw.

1. Definitely. Silver weapons just don't work in a game that has forged iron weapons. I also found Brave weapons to be very underwhelming for the single player experience.

3. Beruka has the right sort of personal skill, one that encourages a certain fighting style, can be triggered at will and isn't too powerful. Personal skills should be about niche roles. This unit is good at tanking, this unit is good on terrain and so-forth.

Edited September 7, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

Ah, but we did get Conquest, didn't we? If they can get at least one game right for gameplay, I'm satisfied.

I don't think the story of Fates was ambitious. I think their marketing was deceptive; promising a great story when their "writing inspiration" didn't even have time to work on the project. It wasn't the greatest story ruined by over extending themselves. It was a mediocre story that they tried to split into 3 games, which made it even worse. It's not "we tried really hard but failed", it's "we said we'd try hard but we didn't really". Mind you, I do think it could have been the greatest story had they followed up on their premise and not shot themselves in the foot by including Revelation/Azura, but it wasn't to be.

Fair points, for sure. One has to wonder why they were so determined to hype it up in the first place though.

Damn, I just really want to know exactly what happened during development. I mean, even the commercial for Conquest said you'd reform it from the inside and be "the light that shines in the dark" - why outright lie, unless it was changed at the last second?

I suspect we'll have a Birthright tier story in the next game, which is unfortunate but the silver lining is we know IS can make good gameplay when they set their minds to it.

Because of all the criticism, you mean?

[NekoKnight]

Fair points, for sure. One has to wonder why they were so determined to hype it up in the first place though.

Damn, I just really want to know exactly what happened during development. I mean, even the commercial for Conquest said you'd reform it from the inside and be "the light that shines in the dark" - why outright lie, unless it was changed at the last second?

Because of all the criticism, you mean?

Underlined: Perhaps that WAS the story impression of Kibiyashi's draft but the IS writers didn't have the talent or devotion to fulfill that vision. Or maybe the IS writers are THAT deluded that they really thought those advertising slogans were an accurate summation of Conquest.

Bolded: Partly because of the criticism, and partly because it's easier not hiring celebrity writers. I fear they'll think that people don't want a complex story when what we really don't want is a convoluted mess full of bad characterization, contrivances and plot holes.

Edited September 7, 2016 by NekoKnight

[shadowofchaos]

One has to wonder if there was am actual revolution/rebellion against Garon during the planning stages for them to make that statement.

[NekoKnight]

There must have been, otherwise that's the most disingenuous plot summary ever.

[Thane]

Perhaps that WAS the story impression of Kibiyashi's draft but the IS writers didn't have the talent or devotion to fulfill that vision. Or maybe the IS writers are THAT deluded that they really thought those advertising slogans were an accurate summation of Conquest.

Well, they're either lying or they're incompetent. I'm not sure which of the two I prefer.

However, I also think Kibayashi just managed to hastily write a first draft, since he was very busy during that time, and can't have had much to do with the development of the game itself. It also makes me wonder if Intelligent Systems more or less felt OBLIGED to use his story, since he wrote far more than they had expected.

Partly because of the criticism, and partly because it's easier not hiring celebrity writers. I fear they'll think that people don't want a complex story when what we really don't want is a convoluted mess full of bad characterization, contrivances and plot holes.

Yeah, that's one of my concerns as well. Maybe they'll just look at all the love Camilla gets and think that's what the kids like these days.

One has to wonder if there was am actual revolution/rebellion against Garon during the planning stages for them to make that statement.

I've little doubt that was the original goal. Conquest can barely progress without mind-numbing stupidity from the cast and plot devices to move the story along. I'm not trying to start a debate about Conquest again, I'm merely saying that I think the more logical and more easily justified story that would've made it stand out from Birthright and indeed from the entire franchise would've been a reformation/revolution plot.

I think even the most ardent defender of Fates can admit that, at the very least, Conquest's goal is far-fetched and Corrin's modus operandi is questionable. I also get the impression that entire chunks of the story just straight up got removed for the sake of preserving and teasing the story of Revelation, and that might've led them to cobble together Conquest's plot as quickly as they possibly could, but that's nothing more than baseless speculation.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Thane

[shadowofchaos]

Alas, despite the game being hacked to pieces with the machete that is the current 3ds toolset, not even Japanese dummy data can give us an insight into our wishful speculation.

Bill Trinen isn't one to make errors on Japanese live translation.

Edited September 7, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Thane]

Alas, despite the game being hacked to pieces with the machete that is the current 3ds toolset, not even Japanese dummy data can give us an insight into our wishful speculation.

Bill Trinen isn't one to make errors on Japanese live translation.

Perhaps so, but there are a few things that stick out in my mind as being particularly odd that would've made more sense in what we assume the original premise of Conquest to be. Granted, I know it might just be my overactive imagination going wild because of an unfinished script, but hear me out.

1) In chapter 1, Corrin stands up to Garon trying to save people they don't know. Leo then bails them out and Xander plays along - this goes against Conquest later where we're told Corrin or the siblings can't do anything to oppose Garon, and it especially clashes with Leo's comment about turning pretending to obeying orders into an artform.

2) In the beginning of Conquest, you go on a random mission to the Ice Tribe and then...nothing. If they were writing a revolution plot, Corrin would need allies like the people from the Ice Tribe, yet as it stands this is nothing but a diversion from the main story.

I would mention Corrin's utter lack of plan aside from wanting to end the war quickly but ends up leading the charge, but I'm tempted to say that's more the result of bad writing than anything else. I realize these two points might not mean much, but they could hint at what the plot was originally going to look like.

[Fyras4]

Perhaps so, but there are a few things that stick out in my mind as being particularly odd that would've made more sense in what we assume the original premise of Conquest to be. Granted, I know it might just be my overactive imagination going wild because of an unfinished script, but hear me out.

1) In chapter 1, Corrin stands up to Garon trying to save people they don't know. Leo then bails them out and Xander plays along - this goes against Conquest later where we're told Corrin or the siblings can't do anything to oppose Garon, and it especially clashes with Leo's comment about turning pretending to obeying orders into an artform.

2) In the beginning of Conquest, you go on a random mission to the Ice Tribe and then...nothing. If they were writing a revolution plot, Corrin would need allies like the people from the Ice Tribe, yet as it stands this is nothing but a diversion from the main story.

I would mention Corrin's utter lack of plan aside from wanting to end the war quickly but ends up leading the charge, but I'm tempted to say that's more the result of bad writing than anything else. I realize these two points might not mean much, but they could hint at what the plot was originally going to look like.

1) Other than the part where Leo disobeys his Father in the Opera House to save the singers/dancers/whatever because of Azura (real smart, girly), this...this doesn't happen again. They say and say that they can't go against their Father...and its understandable...the first time. It just bothers me that they arent a little more rebellious when Garon isn't around.

2) Yeah...that was odd...Corrin just ends the plot and then...nothing. Its like they forgot about it after it happened and Garon decided to move on.

As for rushing to end the war, well...Corrin and Azura (to an extent) have a point...ending the war as fast as possible ends the most bloodshed...in a way, nothing to say about revolts and protests or whatever following after...they clearly didn't plan beyond the whole 'sit on the throne and save the world plot'...which in in a way hurts the story more.

Perhaps, if they had kept the whole Garon thing a secret, it would have been a little more...I dunno, interesting and unexpected until it happened.

The Conquest story line is like pieces of a puzzle, all scrambled about and not knowing where they fit. Sometimes the story makes sense and other times it...just doesn't.

[Loki Laufeyson]

And so he left, the great arbiter of truth. May he be ever free of contrary opinions.

And absolutely nothing of value was lost.

One has to wonder if there was am actual revolution/rebellion against Garon during the planning stages for them to make that statement.

There could have been? I feel like theres shades of such that ended up being mutilated and refigured and put into the really anime shonen sue story we ended up with. Like Corn deciding to undermine Garon by appearing to go along with his plans and trying not to cause actual casualties. While having the siblings do damage control. The real problem with Conquest's story is chapter 15. The story could have worked without the whole Gooran thing and the Valla curse and trying to expose Garon by having him sit on the Hoshidan throne. Like, that was just...wat.

I actually feel like the next FE is gonna be a bit like Sacred Stones. A very simplistic story but decently put together enough to where it works. Now, with avatars. I agree that Avatars arent going anywhere.

[Thane]

As for rushing to end the war, well...Corrin and Azura (to an extent) have a point...ending the war as fast as possible ends the most bloodshed...in a way, nothing to say about revolts and protests or whatever following after...they clearly didn't plan beyond the whole 'sit on the throne and save the world plot'...which in in a way hurts the story more.

I'm not going to derail this thread again by discussing the quality of Conquest's plot, but "finishing the war quickly" doesn't mean "take over Hoshido". Hell, the quickest and easiest way would be a knife to Garon's kidneys, which is what I thought the plot would lead up to.

Consider the facts: Corrin is portrayed as an incredibly caring and kind individual who's willing to stand up against their own comically evil father for people they've never even seen before in chapter one, yet this trait disappears later. Couple that with the siblings talking about disobeying Garon only to go back on it later, and the Ice Tribe, which could've supplied Corrin with troops, ending up being completely irrelevant, and it would seem as if the game was building up to opposing and killing Garon, which would be "the quickest way to end the war", not murdering thousands which goes against their established personality.

I just want to point out again that I'm not trying to start a debate about Conquest's plot, but rather argue that there might've been elements left of a story that would've headed in a vastly different direction. Who knows, maybe that's also why we get to see nothing of the Hoshidan siblings other than their interactions with Corrin, unlike how it is in Birthright.

[Fyras4]

I'm not going to derail this thread again by discussing the quality of Conquest's plot, but "finishing the war quickly" doesn't mean "take over Hoshido". Hell, the quickest and easiest way would be a knife to Garon's kidneys, which is what I thought the plot would lead up to.

Consider the facts: Corrin is portrayed as an incredibly caring and kind individual who's willing to stand up against their own comically evil father for people they've never even seen before in chapter one, yet this trait disappears later. Couple that with the siblings talking about disobeying Garon only to go back on it later, and the Ice Tribe, which could've supplied Corrin with troops, ending up being completely irrelevant, and it would seem as if the game was building up to opposing and killing Garon, which would be "the quickest way to end the war", not murdering thousands which goes against their established personality.

I just want to point out again that I'm not trying to start a debate about Conquest's plot, but rather argue that there might've been elements left of a story that would've headed in a vastly different direction. Who knows, maybe that's also why we get to see nothing of the Hoshidan siblings other than their interactions with Corrin, unlike how it is in Birthright.

Still, though...murdering Garon solves one part of the problem. Just because the King of Nohr is dead doesn't mean the war ends. There's still at least two known (and short) revolts going on, plus the ongoing war with Hoshido. I agree with you on the fact that Corrin should have stood up to the King of Nohr more but didn't at the end but just 'killing Garon' wouldn't have solved the war quicker.

Something might have happened or not during development, though, and that's why the plot is what it is. It could have been better, but well...at least the game play makes up for it.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Fyras4

[ckc22]

lol. I am going to guess you got into the series through Awakening, because nobody who has been around for long could possibly believe that our forum as a whole is biased towards Fates. Let me help you out by supplying a little bit of logic and information from someone who has been around long enough to actually comment on the FE (and SF) community.

1. Our forum has thousands of active users.

2. Said thousands of active users are likely to have differing opinions on a variety of subjects.

3. The people who dislike Awakening are generally not people who love Fates. Our community is pretty split between fans of the older games and fans of the newer games, with some who like them all for what they are.

4. Serenes Forest as a website is 11 years old, we have a very large community of veteran FE fans as a result.

5. Awakening was the first flagship FE title we'd gotten since 2007 and it was a great departure from what the fanbase had come to expect. Hence why there was so much more backlash from said sizable community of veteran FE fans when compared to Fates.

6. They exist in relative harmony these days, people who hate Fates don't post in the Fates section. You know, because that makes sense from a reasonable person's perspective, and they respect us enough to not cause trouble. Veteran fans are typically most active in our social sections.

So there's a few things that might help you understand why making broad and general statements about a large community not only makes you look ridiculous, but will also earn you the ire of the userbase you're constantly generalizing. I hope it allows you to come to the conclusion that posting in a section called "Fire Emblem Fates" to aggressively criticize it is going to result in an outcome you clearly don't want (and somehow don't expect? Hint: Fans of the game are most active in this section).

Good luck in your future postings, young FE fan!

Maybe the thread should be called "Post your positive reviews of FE Fates" then.

Imagine your own 6 paragraphs of dismissive rudeness and read them to yourself in place of me typing them here.

[Magical Glace]

Maybe the thread should be called "Post your positive reviews of FE Fates" then.

Imagine your own 6 paragraphs of dismissive rudeness and read them to yourself in place of me typing them here.

Tang was very reasonable, she wasn't being dismissive or rude at all.

I can say from my own experience that she's pretty much correct as to how opinions tend to line up. I don't like Awakening at all, and I rarely post in the Fates board.

Please say exactly what made you think she was. Just claiming that she was being dismissive won't get you "take seriously" points.