"Nice guys"

[shadowofchaos]

You see, that's the type of thing that can only be shown with actions. When you say you're one, no one can really believe you to be as saint-like as you are.

Especially if you're posting that on a forum.

Edited September 13, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[eclipse]

It's a creepy subreddit, but at least it's not redpill - redpillers are the people who have gone beyond the nice guy phase and actively hate on women and come up with ludricrous conspiracy theories as to why they don't get laid.

It's just one of the reasons as to why I think you can't just excuse nice guy behavior. Obviously not all of them will become a redpiller or whatever they refer to themselves as, but the danger is there, and the sooner someone tells them they've got a skewed view of people - especially women - the better.

That wasn't what I was referring to, and that's about a third of the way down the hole.

hehehehe, still makes me laugh.

That's disgusting.

guys I really do need help as I'm kind of a nice guy, but thats kind of the way I default to.

I'm not acting nicly just to get laid, I just want to make friends

right now I'm rushing a social fraternity so I can try to make some connections

as someone who didn't learn to talk to people his age untill 15 I still have issues approaching people

any advice on how to act normally, I think I've got this body language thing down

Problem is that "normal" is a range of behaviors. Try searching "how to initiate small talk" or something like that, and read through multiple sources. You'll get several different pieces of advice, and that's fine. What you're looking for are the common themes that tie the advice together.

[Thane]

They are subserviant in the sense that they have no real power over women. Women can simply choose to ignore them. I'm not defending them, I'm just saying in the world of sex, they are only an annoyance and don't have any real power in the world of sex.

Generally in the Western world, men have no power over women in relationships, just as women have no power over men, and that's how it should be. We're all just people - equals - and the vast majority of us all share the more common problems when it comes to trying to chat up a person you're interested in. Nice guys are no different in that regard, only their toxic mentality differs.

I was refuting this point you made

And yes, with careers, comes money, and with money comes freedom and power. Women are harder to win as they have more freedom than ever to say "no" to any potential prospects

So men who feel they can't compete when the standards are so high, because of their own insecurities, try to resort to lower means. It's not any malicious conscious choice, but almost a natural reaction for some people.

This makes no sense. Do you think people react to women actually being equal in such a pathetic way, and that nice guys are the result of a changing society? This may come as a surprise for you, but society is always changing and evolving. It's doing so right now, it will continue throughout all of our lives and long after we've all bit the dust.

"It's not a malicious choice" - if you try to manipulate people into having sex with you and never leave people alone, then that's not society's fault, it's you being a prick. There may be personal reasons for why you act that way, but it doesn't change the fact that you're a prick.

Fine, then forget Japan, look at every other industrialized country in the world. The facts are the same.

Yes, for a bloody laundry list of reasons, not because women suddenly started working. Again, this is not a point in your favor.

That's because divorce rates having nothing to do with my central argument, I only brought them up to add to a refutation I made against one of your points. Never did I claim they were related to my central argument, which is shifting gender roles causing these "nice guys".

Why would shifting gender roles cause nice guys to appear? I'm trying to wrap my head around your logic but I simply can't understand where you're coming from.

You seem to like to blame society and other things for why this entitled behavior occurs, but have you even considered what society has done to make it easier for people to meet? Online dating, cheaper travels, mass media, cheap access to education, less societal pressure...the list goes on and on. These are all things that have sprung up fairly recently, and the fact is that they've all made it easier than ever to meet someone. To claim that modern society and changing gender roles somehow create a group of manipulative people desperate for sex is asinine.

guys I really do need help as I'm kind of a nice guy, but thats kind of the way I default to.

I'm not acting nicly just to get laid, I just want to make friends

right now I'm rushing a social fraternity so I can try to make some connections

as someone who didn't learn to talk to people his age untill 15 I still have issues approaching people

any advice on how to act normally, I think I've got this body language thing down

As long as you don't try to manipulate people - especially women - and expect them to reward you for basic decency, you're not a "nice guy". Don't worry so much about how to keep a conversation going - those things tend to flow naturally, and if no one picks up on what you're saying, maybe it's better to either change the subject or be quiet for a moment and let someone else speak.

If you come across as needy and trying to worm yourself into people's lives, chances are people will try to distance themselves from you. Just be you.

That wasn't what I was referring to, and that's about a third of the way down the hole.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what that last part means. I apologize if I said something I shouldn't have.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Thane

[Gabe]

actually I do just that. Sometimes I say things that I either embaress my self or I think I embaressed myself, and I know I way overthink things. I also sometimes don't know how to keep the conversation going

Uh, how old are you now, cap? Just to better understand your situation.

Well, as someone who has passed this situation, first advices are:

1- learn to laugh at yourself, when you say something embarrassing or that you think so, laugh it off, with time you'll get used to mistakes, real life conversation are not like movies, conversations do not go "right" all the time, no matter how hard you plan or rehearse it in your mind. Go with the flow, speak what comes to mind, be it stupid or clever, "turn off" your brain.

2- learn to listen, pay attention to what people are talking, don't rush to speak, let people talk as much as they want, sometimes people only want someone to listen them talk. (Personal experience: women do that a lot, with my girl, there are times where she talks hours by herself before I even say a word ;))

This also helps you grasp your moment to talk.

3- get rid of being self ashamed, be confident, if you are not confident in you, who else should be? (I know this sounds stupid and old man talk, but it's actually good shit)

Well, hope it helps, if you want to talk more, just pm me.

[Augestein]

well I guess you're right. I've gotten so sidetracked at this point I don't even remember what I was talking about in the first place. I concede, but I still don't think "nice guys" behavior just came out of nowhere. but im obviously not good at this so ill stop.

Well no, it didn't come from no where. The issue is that these people were always manipulative. Manipulation like this isn't something we've never seen before, It's just that, like most things on the Internet, people realize that it's more commonplace than one might initially believe, or even perceive. The problem is that these guys don't just want to get laid, they want to get laid by the object (and yes, that's what I'm using here because from their perspective, that IS the object of their affections, the person itself doesn't even really matter at that point) of THEIR choosing. And this is where the problem arises. It goes from being a simple crush, acting on it, and then accepting unrequited love, but rather, getting upset that the object of their affections doesn't return the favor. That in and of itself isn't necessarily a problem, as it's only natural to feel a little sad or unhappy about someone not liking you in return, it's the arrogant rage that stems from it. Like a "how dare SHE not like me." Well, that's not how it works. You don't get to choose how people feel over you.

[shadowofchaos]

but have you even considered what society has done to make it easier for people to meet? Online dating, cheaper travels, mass media, cheap access to education, less societal pressure...the list goes on and on. These are all things that have sprung up fairly recently, and the fact is that they've all made it easier than ever to meet someone.

I'm proof of this.

I moved so far away.

*Plays To the Moon piano music*

If we count places we were born, I was halfway around the world from Belinda.

If it weren't for those things, the two of us would have never been aware of each other's existence. Let alone had the struggle of a long-distance relationship and moving to her (and finding a job).

It's more than being nice. It's being there for someone and them wanting you to be there.

Shared interests and likes.

Being a constant presence isn't going to guarantee that. Literally like shoving your favorite game in someone's face. Expecting them to like it at that point is kind of illogical.

I mean, I know relationships and such are more complicated, but it seems to me that at the base level, it's an okay analogy.

Edited September 14, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[EricaofRenais]

Ok seeing what everyone here defines as "nice guy" my grandfather was not one he was a gentlemen. I had a conversation with my mom the other day talking about manners (I wear an insulin pump and am really scared of people bumping in to me and causing me to have extra insulin injected so that started the convo) and she was telling me that she had a hard time sometimes because when she was growing up guys held doors open for girls and little things like that then when she was a teen that went away and she has problems with thing like when a guy and a girl get to the door at the same time who is going to hold the door open and things like that. I think part of the problem with stuff like this is that nobody is taught manners anymore and so people only act nice when they can get something from it or think they will. I would also like to say that girls can be just as bad as guys, I have known one girl who was was going to marry someone (anyone) no matter what and she ended up treating the guys she dated like garbage when she found out that they probably would not marry her, another girl I knew used people all the time and if they stood up to her she tried to destroy them.

[Res]

I think part of the problem with stuff like this is that nobody is taught manners anymore and so people only act nice when they can get something from it or think they will.

I would dispute this.

Certain manners, certain social behaviours, have disappeared or changed, but I do not think society is ruder.

I'm sure most people in customer service/retail could tell you that often, the older generations are the rudest and most selfish customers. In my day-to-day interactions, I've had far more issues with older people, and I've met a great number of polite, considerate young people.

There are a great number of parents currently teaching their kids good manners (I hope I'm one of them!).

Personally, I hold the door open for whoever is behind me. I wouldn't like it if a man held doors open for me, but only for me and other women; that's not politeness. Good manners shouldn't be gender-selective.

Certain thoughts have changed. For example, children are no longer encouraged to be seen and not heard. I might ask my kids to lower their voices, but I wouldn't prevent them from talking.

[EricaofRenais]

I think it really depends on the person and their back round as to manners and I will say when I was younger other then my grandfather I loathed old people because they were the people that tended to be horrid to me and say things that really hurt me while people my age or younger were very nice. And I know part of my issues about personal space is cultural because I live on the US Mexico border and the people from Mexico tend to be a bit more pushy and don't care if they get to close to me even if they can tell by the way I act that they crossed a line. The other part of my problem is my mom tends to be a wonderful good person who people walk all over an treat like dirt I am very hard on the people who treat her that way and I feel like they don't have any concept of manners for lack of a better term.

[UNLEASH IT]

I can't really say I agree with Sheezy's idea but I will say this: I feel like society puts a bit too much emphasis on sexual prowess as a part of masculinity, and if we would tone that down a bit, both men and women would benefit from it. I also feel like this is major contributor to the development of these so-called "nice guys" that see women as nothing more than a glorified fleshlight or a trophy to claim.

Edited September 14, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Loki Laufeyson]

Kindness is not something that is a bartering tool. Women are people, and people aren't some sort of prize to be earned after doing X amount of things. "Nice guys" violate both of these, and that's not cool.

And how. I have dealt with so many of these asshole "nice guys" that if someone says "but im so nice!" im going to tell them to fuck off and do it immediately. Especially when being nice = not raping you in these people's minds. Its like what the living fuck?

As to where it came from, men believe they are owed things. They believe they are owed nice things, good looking women, etc. Dont believe me? Just look at all these guys who are crying all the time that they cant get women and they work at Best Buy, and its just NOT GOOD ENOUGH. And its women's fault for not wanting them, despite they all look like fuggin' Jontron. (that shit is not attractive, i do not care who you are.) And they dont take care of themselves or even want to. I know someone who felt so entitled to things like women and money, that he doesnt understand why he doesnt have all these things despite not having an education and living with his parents. "I work so hard, why dont women want me?" Maybe its because you dont fucking respect them!

What men need to be taught, is that they are not owed jack shit. And women are human beings who should be respected, not treated like objects. Toxic masculinity is definitely a part of this. This is also where we get the other side of the shit spectrum: The Douchebag Pick Up Artist. Those guys need to go and stay go just as much. The root is the same. Dismantle the root, you will be rid of these fucks once and for all.

*insert mandatory SMASH THE PATRIARCHY stamp here*

[Res]

All my thumbs up to Loki!

[Rapier]

I think the issue is with how people relate "good" actions with rewards as if they always walked together, when they actually don't. Alternatively, they relate "bad" actions with punishments, which seem to justify the label of "bad", when actually good actions can result in punishment and bad actions can result in rewards. That's why we feel unconformed when a good action results in a punishment (or doesn't result in a reward) and a bad action results in a reward (or doesn't result in a punishment). This is a sign of moral mediocrity since right or wrong is not only judged by the rewards (well, results in general) but also by higher rational standards.

As for fixing it.... uh, what about growing up? I don't know. It seems people always need a motivation to do good things (aka rewards) and something that demotivates them from doing bad things. I guess the average person is just like that and we can't expect more from them.

What men need to be taught, is that they are not owed jack shit.

More like people in general need to be taught that, since it is not as if women don't do that as well (they are people, after all), but I agree, I'm also pissed off by how many times people like to brag "oh I'm so awesome I gave them chocolates but they just kept me as friends!!" and then some other friend responds "yeah she just wants you to do good things for her and use you as a slave, get out of that kind of life bro, you don't deserve that manipulator" (I've seen stuff like that on Facebook, but... yeah, still counts).

Edited September 14, 2016 by Rapier

[Loki Laufeyson]

As for fixing it.... uh, what about growing up?

You are under the impression this is a thing only teens and young 20 somethings do. You are incorrect. This behavior is something im seeing even in blokes my age and up. (and im not what you consider rather young, mate.) No no. This isnt the solution. Some guys might mature and get over this, but the way im seeing guys actually break away from this behavior, is being taught that its fucking shitty and horrible to women. By showing them consequences and basically dismantling the viewpoint that they are owed for being "nice", and women have standards too, is how its happening. Boys in their teens are seeing this either on social media or their older sisters are telling em, or their female friends, etc and they are realizing its BS and must end. Its a testament to how some are learning, that the majority of the replies in this thread are lombasting these "nice guys" instead of defending them. Its not really maturity as much as just knowledge.

[Augestein]

You are under the impression this is a thing only teens and young 20 somethings do. You are incorrect. This behavior is something im seeing even in blokes my age and up. (and im not what you consider rather young, mate.) No no. This isnt the solution. Some guys might mature and get over this, but the way im seeing guys actually break away from this behavior, is being taught that its fucking shitty and horrible to women. By showing them consequences and basically dismantling the viewpoint that they are owed for being "nice", and women have standards too, is how its happening. Boys in their teens are seeing this either on social media or their older sisters are telling em, or their female friends, etc and they are realizing its BS and must end. Its a testament to how some are learning, that the majority of the replies in this thread are lombasting these "nice guys" instead of defending them. Its not really maturity as much as just knowledge.

It still has to do with maturity. Age != maturity.

[Sånıc Bÿm]

Saying you're "a nice guy" is like saying that your book/movie/video game/whatever has "a complex story and memorable characters."

[Original Alear]

I'd like to point out that today's divorce rate isn't really a sign that relationships are less successful, just that it's easier for people to escape bad relationships. And that's a great thing!

I'm not necessarily sure we should be that flippant about it. Don't get me wrong, people shouldn't stay married if they don't want to, and I don't see a higher divorce rate as a sign of the end times. However, a lot of research has been done regarding interplay between poverty and divorce (because families in lower income households tend to be at higher risk for divorce). It's not a simple subject, and frankly I'm not educated enough on it to really discuss it, which makes this a kind of dumb fragment of my post, but even if divorces are the result of bad relationships, we should keep in mind that there may be problems from outside a relationship that deteriorate it until divorce is the best option. Examining those issues, instead of just assuming all those relationships were always going to be bad, is probably worth doing. If you're not lazy and uninterested like me.

(I admit this doesn't have much to do with the whole "nice guys" topic.)

actually I do just that. Sometimes I say things that I either embaress my self or I think I embaressed myself, and I know I way overthink things. I also sometimes don't know how to keep the conversation going

I'm sure you'll learn better as time goes on, but I think a lot of people understand the idea that not every conversation will keep going. If you find yourself talking to someone you don't know for a couple mins at a party, and you both run out of something to say and the person sorta makes an offhanded excuse and leaves to talk to someone else - the truth is they probably didn't know how to keep the conversation going either. I'm just giving that as an example. Don't worry too much about that person, just move on to something else.

Conversely, if you actually do think of something to say later, you can pick a conversation back up if you get the right moment. It's not worth doing in every moment - not necessarily worth doing just to give a one-liner joke or something (though it may be for that, tbh).

Sometimes you'll even run out of something to say to a good friend. I remember once I was at a party and was chatting for a while with someone I've known since like, middle school? (for context this was probably at least 2 years out of college) After we talked for a while, we were silent for a while, and then I said something like "sorry, I'm out of stories, can't think of something else to say." And she said something like "we've known each other for years, we really don't have to talk every moment." It struck me as an imminently sensible thing to say. The conversation resumed in a couple minutes anyway. No worries.

when she was growing up guys held doors open for girls and little things like that then when she was a teen that went away

I think part of the problem with stuff like this is that nobody is taught manners anymore and so people only act nice when they can get something from it or think they will.

Look, I suspect you're probably somewhat right, and people may be less respectful than they were in the past, but people do dramatize it somewhat. For instance, people hold doors for each other all the time. It's really not something that has "gone away."

despite they all look like fuggin' Jontron. (that shit is not attractive, i do not care who you are.)

Not even if you ARE Jontron? Edited September 15, 2016 by HELP

[Tryhard]

What men need to be taught, is that they are not owed jack shit. And women are human beings who should be respected, not treated like objects. Toxic masculinity is definitely a part of this.

Well, just telling people not to be an asshole isn't really effective at getting them not to be. Respecting others feelings and empathy in general is important to teach, but is rarely done outside of your own family (you weren't exactly taught that in school, were you?). If they did have a heightened sense of empathy, they would realize that what they were doing was quite shitty. Also, what is toxic masculinity? Edited September 16, 2016 by Tryhard

[Time the Crestfallen]

Also, what is toxic masculinity?

The definition varies from person-to-person, but here's the most common one:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

[Tryhard]

I figured that would be the case.

But I'm not a feminist and am indeed critical of feminist theory, including the concept of a modern western patriarchy. I've heard it a few times, but it was mostly in passing as a buzzword... buzzphrase? that no-one really sought to define or explain. It kinda just seems comparable to 'machismo' in general.

[UNLEASH IT]

Also, what is toxic masculinity?

I probably shouldn't be using this as an example, but I think that it sums it up pretty well.

Now, I know that the term has kinda lost its meaning recently and is sometimes used to shit on anything that men do, but if I had to describe what toxic masculinity is, it'd probably be something similar to the video above.

Edited September 16, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Res]

I'm not necessarily sure we should be that flippant about it. Don't get me wrong, people shouldn't stay married if they don't want to, and I don't see a higher divorce rate as a sign of the end times. However, a lot of research has been done regarding interplay between poverty and divorce (because families in lower income households tend to be at higher risk for divorce). It's not a simple subject, and frankly I'm not educated enough on it to really discuss it, which makes this a kind of dumb fragment of my post, but even if divorces are the result of bad relationships, we should keep in mind that there may be problems from outside a relationship that deteriorate it until divorce is the best option. Examining those issues, instead of just assuming all those relationships were always going to be bad, is probably worth doing. If you're not lazy and uninterested like me.

I agree that it's not a simple subject, and it would certainly be great if more people were open to couples therapy and could truly work through their issues.

I'll also admit that I have personal bias; I saw my parents struggle through 30 years of bad and abusive marriage (both admit that they should never have married in the first place - and the issues existed since before I was even born) because the idea of divorce was so abhorrent to them, so I often wonder about all the heartache for everyone involved that might not have existed if only they'd divorced sooner.

I certainly don't think there can't be happy marriages; I've been in one for coming up to 8 years, now! (And since you mention poverty, yeah, all our issues in the first few years were pretty much related to money.) And I don't foresee the vast majority of our friends getting divorced, either (although experience has taught me that you never know what's going on behind closed doors).

The definition varies from person-to-person, but here's the most common one:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

That is a pretty great definition, and is certainly how I would define toxic masculinity.

But I'm not a feminist and am indeed critical of feminist theory, including the concept of a modern western patriarchy.

Oh boy.

[Tryhard]

Oh boy.

Well, it's not as if I'm gonna get hostile over it. You have to understand that some people are just going to choose not to be feminists when they disagree with a cornerstone of feminist theory like the patriarchy. I have not been presented with compelling evidence to show that it is the case, but I am open to argument.

Edit: Eh, but that's besides the discussion.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Tryhard

[Moblin Major General]

Well, it's not as if I'm gonna get hostile over it. You have to understand that some people are just going to choose not to be feminists when they disagree with a cornerstone of feminist theory like the patriarchy. I have not been presented with compelling evidence to show that it is the case, but I am open to argument.

It's an American thing. Your country has one of the strongest modern monarchs, and she's a female who is absolutely admirable and strong willed. The patriarchy argument in Britain effectively died with Elizabeth's coronation, or failing that, the rise of Margaret Thatcher. My country has yet to have a female president, and given our current options, that could be construed as a good thing, even though it really isn't. Feminists in Europe focus on the patriarchy less because leader like Elizabeth and Angela Merkel are showing that women are strong leaders, too. In the US, though, the patriarchy concept is there in all but name, because there are many who are unwilling to admit it to protect themselves from their voter base.

[Augestein]

It's an American thing. Your country has one of the strongest modern monarchs, and she's a female who is absolutely admirable and strong willed. The patriarchy argument in Britain effectively died with Elizabeth's coronation, or failing that, the rise of Margaret Thatcher. My country has yet to have a female president, and given our current options, that could be construed as a good thing, even though it really isn't. Feminists in Europe focus on the patriarchy less because leader like Elizabeth and Angela Merkel are showing that women are strong leaders, too. In the US, though, the patriarchy concept is there in all but name, because there are many who are unwilling to admit it to protect themselves from their voter base.

I don't think that works at all though. That's like saying because we haven't had an Asian president that we haven't moved forward as a country. It's not necessarily a bad thing that we haven't had a female president. It's not good, but it's not bad. To blame the concept of "patriarchy" on that is an incredibly weak argument.