"Nice guys"

[eclipse]

Cerberus is being misread hard, and I'd claim he's being portrayed in a bad light through extremely biased lens trying to nitpick and misrep what he said if I didn't know clipsey better (seriously, this thing needs to stop to happen whenever we're talking about social issues/minorities). I suggest calming down and reading him again.

##Vote: clipsey

Then I suggest posting your interpretation, because I see a shitton of context I don't like in both of your posts.

[Phoenix Wright]

It would be GREAT if I got some sort of response for doing something nice. However, I don't expect it. What I do expect is not to be kicked in the face for doing something nice. Gratitude from the other person is wonderful, but I don't think I'm entitled to it because I did a good deed.

i expect please's, thank you's, etc. if i don't get 'em, i don't do favors for that person. i'm not gonna go outta my way for someone who doesn't appreciate it; that's a complete waste of time and energy.

doing something nice and expecting gratitude isn't entitlement. doing something nice and expecting more than gratitude (eg sex, huge favors, etc.) is entitlement, and in the example of sex, pathetic and gross.

let's say i ask you to get me a glass of water and you do it. i say nothing at all, drink it, and ask you to get me more water a few minutes later. then i do the same thing the next day, and again a couple days later. over time (perhaps very quickly), you may be less inclined to get me water because i don't show any gratitude when you do it. i don't value the time you take to go and get the water, etc. etc.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Original Alear]

What I don't like is that the man becomes somewhat of a villain in this case. That's a bit unfortunate. A story has two sides, at least. That's what gets me.

This is the line that gets me, and if I were eclipse, would justify my other concerns. It's not that I disagree that a story has two sides, but I'm not sure guys are as frequently villainized for getting rejected as you seem to think. When someone does tend to think like that, my skepticism towards their general beliefs about "what's fair and right" in courtship increases.

RE rejection: I'm convinced flippant, stock insults can be effective face-savers for rejection. In general, if someone is clearly not putting much thought into the insult, it begins to become clear it's about them. They may not have time or the right mood to be polite to you at the time you so graciously bore your heart to them. Personally, when I look back at times when I was rejected, I think if I was the girl, I would be irritated with the general situation, and when I think of the few times I have rejected women, I realize irritation with them was a major factor.

[eclipse]

i expect please's, thank you's, etc. if i don't get 'em, i don't do favors for that person. i'm not gonna go outta my way for someone who doesn't appreciate it; that's a complete waste of time and energy.

doing something nice and expecting gratitude isn't entitlement. doing something nice and expecting more than gratitude (eg sex, huge favors, etc.) is entitlement, and in the example of sex, pathetic and gross.

let's say i ask you to get me a glass of water and you do it. i say nothing at all, drink it, and ask you to get me more water a few minutes later. then i do the same thing the next day, and again a couple days later. over time (perhaps very quickly), you may be less inclined to get me water because i don't show any gratitude when you do it. i don't value the time you take to go and get the water, etc. etc.

We operate on completely different wavelengths. The difference between us is that I'm more likely to simply remember the small things (like your example), and refer to it if I ever need to justify something bigger.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone knew please and thank you. In reality, that's not the case, and getting bent out of shape because someone doesn't have manners isn't productive.

This is the line that gets me, and if I were eclipse, would justify my other concerns. It's not that I disagree that a story has two sides, but I'm not sure guys are as frequently villainized for getting rejected as you seem to think. When someone does tend to think like that, my skepticism towards their general beliefs about "what's fair and right" in courtship increases.

If the guy's decent about it, then it's not an issue. However, there's a certain point where things get way the hell out of hand. Best example I can give is having someone you don't like following you all over the place - their motives may or may not be harmful, but it's not a good feeling (and count yourself lucky if you have no frame of reference for this).

Honestly, I think this is something that requires some personal experience to truly understand. Guys can be on the receiving end of a "nice girl", but I don't think it's as prevalent as "nice guys".

[Phoenix Wright]

We operate on completely different wavelengths. The difference between us is that I'm more likely to simply remember the small things (like your example), and refer to it if I ever need to justify something bigger.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone knew please and thank you. In reality, that's not the case, and getting bent out of shape because someone doesn't have manners isn't productive.

you're missing the point. it's not about getting bent out of shape, it's about mutual respect. with regards to your first point, i'm not really even sure what you mean. what does it mean to remember the small things as per my example and refer to it if you ever need to justify something bigger??

the please and thank you isn't there to be there. it's to know someone acknowledges that you did something for them. otherwise you end up just getting bossed around, which is not typically desirable.

"hey, get me water," is far different from "hey eclipse, could you get me a glass of water? please and thank you." i think you're being taken advantage of in the first case.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[eclipse]

you're missing the point. it's not about getting bent out of shape, it's about mutual respect. with regards to your first point, i'm not really even sure what you mean. what does it mean to remember the small things as per my example and refer to it if you ever need to justify something bigger??

the please and thank you isn't there to be there. it's to know someone acknowledges that you did something for them. otherwise you end up just getting bossed around, which is not typically desirable.

"hey, get me water," is far different from "hey eclipse, could you get me a glass of water? please and thank you." i think you're being taken advantage of in the first case.

You'll figure out my first point once you're out and about in the real world for long enough. Since that's the crux of my argument, I don't think explaining anything else will make much sense. Suffice to say that tailoring your life to the ideal that everyone knows and practices mutual respect will end with disappointment. Because if everyone did, then this topic wouldn't exist.

[Phoenix Wright]

i could do without your condescension. also, you never cleared up what you actually meant by what you said. i legitimately cannot follow the thought.

since the "crux" of your argument is that you're the realist and i'm the idealist, i have to say yet again you are missing the point entirely. you are free to not interact with people who do not respect you, eclipse. let that be family or friend.

for random people on the street that you do something nice for (which, let's all admit, would be a rare occurrence to begin with), if they respond like assholes, you are free to confront them about it. but it's still find to expect gratitude, since 99% of the time you'll get it anyway.

this topic would definitely still exist because the idea behind being a "nice" guy is that nice = sex, which is not the case.

[eclipse]

From my point of view, your views are not in line with reality. It's literally something that only life experience can fix, and there's no nicer way of expressing that.

However, if there IS mutual respect, then a "nice guy" would be able to respect the girl's wishes, and go on his way. Meanwhile, the girl would have enough respect for him that she'd do her best to let him down gently. Hence why worldwide mutual respect would make this topic moot.

[Phoenix Wright]

how will life experience clear up a thought that doesn't make sense to begin with???

i mean, let's examine your point: it's wrong (because you're entitled) to expect gratitude for doing something nice because you'll be disappointed that people won't express it.

i have two claims:

1. if it's someone you see often, not receiving gratitude means that person doesn't respect you, and therefore you don't need to interact with that person. or, you can confront said person about it. expecting gratitude from someone you know as a sign of mutual respect is in no way entitlement.

2. random interactions with people will usually result in people expressing gratitude, and in cases where they don't, you can either ignore or confront the person about it. are you arguing that people don't generally express gratitude or something?? i'm so lost.

your responses back don't even address these, you just assume you know better. which is bullshit.

your misanthropic views of society do not reflect society, regardless of your age. moreover, the difference in our ages is not even that noticeable.

However, if there IS mutual respect, then a "nice guy" would be able to respect the girl's wishes, and go on his way. Meanwhile, the girl would have enough respect for him that she'd do her best to let him down gently. Hence why worldwide mutual respect would make this topic moot.

this also does not make sense. usually the "friend zone" refers to friends. you know, people who see each other often and probably enjoy each other's company. for a nice guy to simply stop being friends with someone he enjoys is not a realistic outlook on the relationship the two people have. this goes for any kind of person, not just "nice guys."

the girl isn't under any obligation to let him down "gently." why would she be?

edit: can anyone explain what "We operate on completely different wavelengths. The difference between us is that I'm more likely to simply remember the small things (like your example), and refer to it if I ever need to justify something bigger," means since eclipse doesn't want to clarify?

Edited October 5, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[eclipse]

You can try to expect gratitude, but you won't always get it. You're a lot more likely to be disappointed by not getting what you expect versus getting something both unexpected and nice. However, I'm positive that it's something that you don't truly understand. Also, I don't make my age public, but I can say that the number of years between us is enough for me to say that you're short on life experience, and you might figure it out once you hit my age (or you might not, I can't say what your future holds).

If you knew your presence will make someone uncomfortable, and you respect that person, would you hang around them? This goes both ways after a rejection - sometimes, it's the girl that wanders off to do her own thing. Regardless, a relationship doesn't end with a rejection, but it almost always will take some time to readjust itself.

Go ahead and think it's bullshit, because it doesn't fit your world view. The world will fix that soon enough. The question is - will you turn into the one who won't get what he thinks is his due, and reacts accordingly?

[Phoenix Wright]

You can try to expect gratitude, but you won't always get it.

you've shifted your view. before you said the person who expects gratitude is entitled. why is expecting gratitude evidence of entitlement? the reasoning being "it won't always happen" is not an argument.

You're a lot more likely to be disappointed by not getting what you expect versus getting something both unexpected and nice.

this has nothing to do with what i've said.

However, I'm positive that it's something that you don't truly understand. Also, I don't make my age public, but I can say that the number of years between us is enough for me to say that you're short on life experience, and you might figure it out once you hit my age (or you might not, I can't say what your future holds).

your point is not even clear lol. i really am taken aback by how arrogant you are, though.

If you knew your presence will make someone uncomfortable, and you respect that person, would you hang around them? This goes both ways after a rejection - sometimes, it's the girl that wanders off to do her own thing. Regardless, a relationship doesn't end with a rejection, but it almost always will take some time to readjust itself.

rejections don't necessarily have to be uncomfortable. i have my own example: my freshman year of college, i unfortunately had to let a friend down. we remained friends afterward, her presence did not make me uncomfortable, etc.

Go ahead and think it's bullshit, because it doesn't fit your world view.

what exactly do you think my worldview is? evidenced here and previously, i don't think you're properly comprehending any of my points, nor are you properly expressing yours. talking to you is just a mountain of confusion because you refuse to explain yourself for some reason.

The world will fix that soon enough.

muh life exp

The question is - will you turn into the one who won't get what he thinks is his due, and reacts accordingly?

wtf are you talking about lol.

...the idea behind being a "nice" guy is that nice = sex, which is not the case.

...doing something nice and expecting gratitude isn't entitlement. doing something nice and expecting more than gratitude (eg sex, huge favors, etc.) is entitlement, and in the example of sex, pathetic and gross.

your last comment honestly just came off as creepy to me

Edited October 5, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Augestein]

You can try to expect gratitude, but you won't always get it. You're a lot more likely to be disappointed by not getting what you expect versus getting something both unexpected and nice. However, I'm positive that it's something that you don't truly understand. Also, I don't make my age public, but I can say that the number of years between us is enough for me to say that you're short on life experience, and you might figure it out once you hit my age (or you might not, I can't say what your future holds).

If you knew your presence will make someone uncomfortable, and you respect that person, would you hang around them? This goes both ways after a rejection - sometimes, it's the girl that wanders off to do her own thing. Regardless, a relationship doesn't end with a rejection, but it almost always will take some time to readjust itself.

Go ahead and think it's bullshit, because it doesn't fit your world view. The world will fix that soon enough. The question is - will you turn into the one who won't get what he thinks is his due, and reacts accordingly?

Except from what he's saying, your response has nothing to do with what he's saying. The disappointment isn't his point: it's that if a person continues to NOT express gratitude a person shouldn't have (or feel compelled) to waste their time with the ungrateful party. And I agree with that. Pretty much anyone would agree with that. A person should feel entitled to gratitude for performing a task for someone. Otherwise, there's no reason for them to continue to perform anything that's worthy of gratitude. Wright's reasoning is that the person does not respect the performer's actions nor time taken to assist them. A little bit of gratitude goes a long way. It helps with lowering turnover rates, it keeps morale high, it keeps positive energy in a relationship as well, and it honestly doesn't require much effort to show gratitude. Ideally everyone would do this, realistically it's not going to happen, and realistically, the ungrateful person is going to receive less assistance on things when people realize that they ARE ungrateful.

Not necessarily. Sometimes both of you can just agree "friends it is." I mean once my friend and I both agreed that we didn't want to try dating because we had known each other for years and that it WOULD be awkward if we started dating.

It's bullshit because you haven't actually expressed a clear thought as to what you were saying when he asked. Instead you continue to say "he doesn't have the experience." If that's the case, make it clearer. Explain it to him in a way so that he can understand.

[Original Alear]

edit: can anyone explain what "We operate on completely different wavelengths. The difference between us is that I'm more likely to simply remember the small things (like your example), and refer to it if I ever need to justify something bigger," means since eclipse doesn't want to clarify?

Since you're making a general appeal, here's my opinion: she'll use a pattern of minor bad behaviors to support her case if she needs to make an issue about major bad behavior.

I could phrase it a lot of different ways, and give an interpretation that uses less imagination and speculation based on how I sometimes act and how I think others sometimes act and think, but I think the above roughly approximates what she meant.

It definitely isn't the best approach to every instance, and I doubt Eclipse uses it in every instance, but it's definitely workable some of the time.

I'm kind of surprised you don't understand that at all, but I'm also surprised her response was a refusal to clarify. If I gave a response like that to someone in an instance like this, I wouldn't continue to speak on a topic with the expectation that anyone would continue taking me seriously. I'm pretty sure we all have close friends who we've discussed things with before who are as old or older than Eclipse, offline and online, relatives and not, and that is really the only qualification she is citing for talking down to you. It's fine she doesn't want to disclose that age, and I won't even give an approximate though I think I have one, but all that creates on your end is an appearance of magical predictions. You won't even know if Eclipse is right, because you won't know when "you hit [her] age." If she's making a private prediction to herself that you'll never be able to verify, why is she sharing it with you?

EDIT-For the record I don't even think Eclipse's posts are necessarily off the mark, I'm just amazed at her tone, literally, from my last post on.

Edited October 5, 2016 by HELP

[Skynstein]

I think my choice of word was really bad. "Subterfuge" does not mean what I wanted to say, probably. The word I was after is "technique". Trying to sound eloquent can backfire horribly.

The thing I wanted to say is that, love is not logical. That's what nice guys don't get. The reward theory can only exist if you believe love is the ultimate goal of a progressive road where you take each step forward to achieve it.

If love was logical, if I was always nice to a girl and never made any mistakes, the resulting outcome of my actions would be that the girl falls in love with me. The problem is that the logical outcome of being nice to others is NOT love. It is gratitude. (unless the person is an idiot to you) Real life is not The Sims!

Showing niceness to a person helps, but actual love is dependent on things completely out of control of both parties. Each person is different, so one girl can think you're awesome and another may ignore you completely. The catch is finding your match.

For me, love has always been a troublesome subject because I don't cope well with randomness and things outside my control. This is in any situation imaginable. I struggle badly with randomness.

Now, love isn't really truly random because the probability of me and Scarlett Johansson (for example) falling in love with each other is zero, but you get the idea. It's a problematic subject because we have almost no control over it.

[Rapier]

Then I suggest posting your interpretation, because I see a shitton of context I don't like in both of your posts.

Basically you're reacting to terms in a way that does not coincide with how they were used or taking expressions in the worst way possible (my case is the latter, Cerberus' is the former). Sorry if I was rude, but I feel like I'm being misrepresented and my words being distorted and that's bad.

For example, when I said it is a human thing to expect retribution from good actions, you automatically interpreted that I was saying it was a completely ok thing, despite nothing in my sentence indicating that. I only said it was a human thing. Normal (as in, the norm, something that generally occurs).

To show your interpretation does not sustain, read the sentence before that one where I acknowledge that as a problem. Therefore, despite what you and Res interpreted, I did NOT say it is ok to expect retribution from good actions and demand them from others. Why would I even recognize it as a problem if I said it was ok? My point was that it was just the tip of the iceberg compared to the big issue of entitlement (from which it arises, and no, it isn't just a millennial thing or whatever), which was... missed altogether.

I'm not going to get into Cerberus' post because I also have my interpretation, which could be wrong (for example, I think he used the term "friendzone" and addressed its meaning instead of whatever made you yell "WOMEN ARE ALSO PEOPLE" at him, which wasn't even his point as far as I saw). If he feels like it, he can clear that up. I can't speak for him or read his mind to say what exactly he meant other than what was explicitly written.

[Phoenix Wright]

Since you're making a general appeal, here's my opinion: she'll use a pattern of minor bad behaviors to support her case if she needs to make an issue about major bad behavior.

hm, my initial interpretation was that she would use the "small favors" as leverage to get a bigger favor if needed.

in any case, until she clears that sentence up i'm still confused. if either of our interpretations are correct, though, it's still generally a poor practice. if one doesn't notify their partner/friend/colleague that they're getting the little things wrong, how are they supposed to know? holding favors over someone's head until you need something done for you is also shitty.

I'm kind of surprised you don't understand that at all,

i had an interpretation, but even based off of your own interpretation lets me know her thoughts simply aren't clear (to me at least). i'm not going to respond to an unclear point.

but I'm also surprised her response was a refusal to clarify. If I gave a response like that to someone in an instance like this, I wouldn't continue to speak on a topic with the expectation that anyone would continue taking me seriously. I'm pretty sure we all have close friends who we've discussed things with before who are as old or older than Eclipse, offline and online, relatives and not, and that is really the only qualification she is citing for talking down to you. It's fine she doesn't want to disclose that age, and I won't even give an approximate though I think I have one, but all that creates on your end is an appearance of magical predictions. You won't even know if Eclipse is right, because you won't know when "you hit [her] age." If she's making a private prediction to herself that you'll never be able to verify, why is she sharing it with you?

i roughly know her age (i know how many decades she's been alive). it's really not that major of a difference. the fact that she thinks so is kind of funny to me, honestly.

EDIT-For the record I don't even think Eclipse's posts are necessarily off the mark, I'm just amazed at her tone, literally, from my last post on.

the crazy thing is i don't either, but she's not even really responding to my original point, which is that a person isn't entitled if they expect gratitude for helping someone out. in fact it's one of the reasons people do nice things for other people: it makes you feel good. when someone expresses gratitude, you know you did something to help. that's why 99% of people express gratitude.

frankly, i'm surprised i even had to argue this. and for it to go so far as to get into a hole where the claim is i'm not "old enough" to know better, and that my worldview is "unrealistic."

and i guess my actual argument is that doing nice things for people and expecting gratitude isn't an example of the infamous "nice guy." a real example of a "nice guy" is a dude at every beck and call for a girl (or guy), then expects sex just because he was nice. or a kiss, or a hug, or anything that can be construed as sensual or sexual. you don't get sexual favors for being nice. but you do get a "thanks, yo." or a cookie. or something that is reasonable to the deed.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Refa]

man, i took a communications class and one of the ten golden rules was showing genuine appreciation for other people because it makes them more receptive to you in general (in addition to just being a nice thing to do). while you don't always get that appreciation, i don't think there's anything particularly wrong or entitled with expecting it. heck, if i helped someone out and they didn't appreciate it for whatever reason, i'd rather them (reasonably) explain why over saying nothing which would make me feel like i wasted my time.

[Original Alear]

The thing I wanted to say is that, love is not logical. That's what nice guys don't get. The reward theory can only exist if you believe love is the ultimate goal of a progressive road where you take each step forward to achieve it.

I would contest it's not just this that, at least some of them, don't get. Even if there is some logic to love, it seems like "nice guys" expect not only logic, but logic that favors them. The ultimate idea that "someone should have sex with me" involves a reward that seems to be fairly personal and intimate for a lot of people. To concur with Rapier, this isn't limited to guys or to love.

I agree with what you said here as well.

If love was logical, if I was always nice to a girl and never made any mistakes, the resulting outcome of my actions would be that the girl falls in love with me. The problem is that the logical outcome of being nice to others is NOT love. It is gratitude. (unless the person is an idiot to you) Real life is not The Sims!

This is where I disagree, mostly because of the above. Being nice is never enough to guarantee any reward. Having sex with someone is more than just "nice." We generally don't expect either men or women to give out courtesy fucks. Unless the guy should screw his relatives if they send him a nice gift card each year.

Even if love was logical, the conclusion you make here is not, I think.

Showing niceness to a person helps, but actual love is dependent on things completely out of control of both parties. Each person is different, so one girl can think you're awesome and another may ignore you completely. The catch is finding your match.

Now that I've made it here, I think you actually feel similarly to me and just are phrasing it differently - but I'd still contend that what you say above doesn't peg love as "illogical." Just because something is out of my control doesn't mean it's illogical for someone to ignore it. If my dick fell off, it'd be logical for a girl who wants to have conventional forms of sex to me to reconsider me. I realize that's an extreme example, but that doesn't mean a less extreme example of something "out of my control" is something someone else should just accept.

I'm not saying its good that we can have negative things about ourselves outside our control, but we also can't expect people to accept them to the point of loving us. That isn't logical. What comes across as relatively illogical - and also beautiful - is when, for instance, people who do have an attraction or do love each other continue to feel that love after these negative things, out of our control or not, begin to happen. An excellent example is Hawking's relationship with his first wife, if the recent movie was an accurate depiction.

[eclipse]

It's bullshit because you haven't actually expressed a clear thought as to what you were saying when he asked. Instead you continue to say "he doesn't have the experience." If that's the case, make it clearer. Explain it to him in a way so that he can understand.

This is one of those things that needs to be experienced, not explained. For another less pleasant example, I can tell you what it's like to be stalked, but it's damn near impossible to explain just how completely and utterly awful it is.

EDIT-For the record I don't even think Eclipse's posts are necessarily off the mark, I'm just amazed at her tone, literally, from my last post on.

I only have so much patience, and the last page or so has been pretty bad. I usually don't like to pull the age card, but I also think that life experience would explain it far better than what I can try to do. Of course, it'll probably end with a general loss of faith in humanity and possibly cynicism and depression.

I think my choice of word was really bad. "Subterfuge" does not mean what I wanted to say, probably. The word I was after is "technique". Trying to sound eloquent can backfire horribly.

The thing I wanted to say is that, love is not logical. That's what nice guys don't get. The reward theory can only exist if you believe love is the ultimate goal of a progressive road where you take each step forward to achieve it.

If love was logical, if I was always nice to a girl and never made any mistakes, the resulting outcome of my actions would be that the girl falls in love with me. The problem is that the logical outcome of being nice to others is NOT love. It is gratitude. (unless the person is an idiot to you) Real life is not The Sims!

Showing niceness to a person helps, but actual love is dependent on things completely out of control of both parties. Each person is different, so one girl can think you're awesome and another may ignore you completely. The catch is finding your match.

For me, love has always been a troublesome subject because I don't cope well with randomness and things outside my control. This is in any situation imaginable. I struggle badly with randomness.

Now, love isn't really truly random because the probability of me and Scarlett Johansson (for example) falling in love with each other is zero, but you get the idea. It's a problematic subject because we have almost no control over it.

THIS is a much better explanation. People have their own likes and dislikes, so part of courtship is tailoring your approach to that specific person. It isn't easy, and relationships take work (even platonic ones), so the best I can do is wish you luck.

Basically you're reacting to terms in a way that does not coincide with how they were used or taking expressions in the worst way possible (my case is the latter, Cerberus' is the former). Sorry if I was rude, but I feel like I'm being misrepresented and my words being distorted and that's bad.

For example, when I said it is a human thing to expect retribution from good actions, you automatically interpreted that I was saying it was a completely ok thing, despite nothing in my sentence indicating that. I only said it was a human thing. Normal (as in, the norm, something that generally occurs).

To show your interpretation does not sustain, read the sentence before that one where I acknowledge that as a problem. Therefore, despite what you and Res interpreted, I did NOT say it is ok to expect retribution from good actions and demand them from others. Why would I even recognize it as a problem if I said it was ok? My point was that it was just the tip of the iceberg compared to the big issue of entitlement (from which it arises, and no, it isn't just a millennial thing or whatever), which was... missed altogether.

I'm not going to get into Cerberus' post because I also have my interpretation, which could be wrong (for example, I think he used the term "friendzone" and addressed its meaning instead of whatever made you yell "WOMEN ARE ALSO PEOPLE" at him, which wasn't even his point as far as I saw). If he feels like it, he can clear that up. I can't speak for him or read his mind to say what exactly he meant other than what was explicitly written.

The problem with "human" is that it's a very broad spectrum. Once upon a time, women were viewed as property in the eyes of the law. Today, women are viewed as people. Times and social rules will change, hopefully for the better. I really would like it if gratitude was the de facto response after an altruistic act. Realistically, that's not going to happen. So, you can either expect the best out of people, or the worst. The difference is that you're a lot less likely to be disappointed if you receive something good when you don't expect it, versus expecting something good and not receiving it. Think of it as "hope for the best but prepare for the worst". Part of the "nice guy" disappointment is expecting something good (the girl's approval) and not getting it.

Cerebus cleared up his point nicely.

i roughly know her age (i know how many decades she's been alive). it's really not that major of a difference. the fact that she thinks so is kind of funny to me, honestly.

If your profile is correct, you're 22 years old. I wouldn't date a 22-year-old, on the account of being way too young. Trust me, you'll look back at this time of your life in five years and facepalm.

and i guess my actual argument is that doing nice things for people and expecting gratitude isn't an example of the infamous "nice guy." a real example of a "nice guy" is a dude at every beck and call for a girl (or guy), then expects sex just because he was nice. or a kiss, or a hug, or anything that can be construed as sensual or sexual. you don't get sexual favors for being nice. but you do get a "thanks, yo." or a cookie. or something that is reasonable to the deed.

That's the literal definition of "nice guy". However, the underlying mindset is one of "I deserve this and didn't get it, so it's okay for me to project negativity onto the person that rejected me". The key part is the first clause - thinking you deserve something and not getting it. That's why entitlement can't be taken for granted.

Entitlement in my neck of the woods is something that's frowned upon heavily.

. . .and I'm off, gotta clean up the forums.

[Time the Crestfallen]

If your profile is correct, you're 22 years old. I wouldn't date a 22-year-old, on the account of being way too young. Trust me, you'll look back at this time of your life in five years and facepalm.

Isn't this true for every age though? I seriously can't think of the things I did as little as two years ago without wishing that I could travel back in time so I could slap myself, and going further back then that would make me liable to beat myself half-to-death.

[solrocknroll]

You can't just talk down to everyone during an argument. Your age does not automatically make you smarter than others, and that doesn't invalidate what Phoenix is saying.

I actually agree more with you on this, eclipse, but you aren't arguing your points in a very productive manner.

[Augestein]

This is one of those things that needs to be experienced, not explained. For another less pleasant example, I can tell you what it's like to be stalked, but it's damn near impossible to explain just how completely and utterly awful it is.

Not necessarily. Considering that you don't know what he's experienced at this age, it's not sufficient in my eyes. Age isn't anything but a number -- perhaps to a fault; it's not necessarily a precursor to one's understanding of societal manners or psychological circumstances. A person doesn't have to experience death for instance to actually understand why people would fear it. And any person with acute paranoia for instance? Might be able to tell you how awful it is to be stalked. Even worse, they might actually have more of a problem than one instance of being stalked on the account that they feel like anything might set them off for their tendencies-- some of which may have actually been factual rather than fabricated. Without knowing what he's going through (or gone through for that matter), it's incredibly presumptuous to assert that he simply cannot understand because he hasn't experienced it. It's a large leap of faith without any actual evidence to support it-- at least from what I'm seeing. You may know him better personally, but if not, that's incredibly unfair in my eyes.

Isn't this true for every age though? I seriously can't think of the things I did as little as two years ago without wishing that I could travel back in time so I could slap myself, and going further back then that would make me liable to beat myself half-to-death.

Probably. Life is rife with opportunities for regret. Sometimes small, sometimes large.

You can't just talk down to everyone during an argument. Your age does not automatically make you smarter than others, and that doesn't invalidate what Phoenix is saying.

Exactly. I don't necessarily disagree with either point as they both have their own merits, and I'm not seeing any particular instance where I can just say "no, that's not something I personally disagree with, but seems kind of off." Or "I agree with this so much that I feel compelled to chime in."

[Makaze]

I said my piece in a thread about this from a long time back and my position hasn't changed, so...

I want a guy that's honest about his motives. If I feel I'm being manipulated, things end right then and there. Learned this one the hard way. That's a huge difference between kind men and Nice Guys.

As for absolute doormats. . .I know I can be extremely dominant, and I know that it will lead to an unhealthy relationship; thus, I try to avoid that quality. This doesn't mean that I want a jerk; it means I want a man that knows how to pick his battles. A man that's willing to cater to my every whim is not what I'm looking for. However, that kind of man may be a good fit for another type of girl.

As for abuse. . .this one's complicated. Maybe the abused grew up in a household with abuse (which may normalize it in the abused person's mind). Maybe the abused REALLY LIKES the attention from the abuser, no matter how negative. Maybe the abused thinks that they can't get out of the situation (financially, kids, etc.) right now. Maybe the abused has become so intellectually dishonest with themselves that they can't find a reason to leave. Maybe it's something else. It's a messy situation, and one that I wish didn't happen. . .but it does, and it's not just men that do the abusing. I think this is a HUMAN problem, not a gender one, so I don't see how it ties in.

No confidence/being naive, etc.: Meh. Probably a deal-breaker for me, but it's because of the type of guy I'm looking for. However, a regular friendship is possible.

Being "friends" for the purpose of getting into my pants: NO, and I don't like those qualities in any sort of person. Probably not good friend material, either.

One may be honest, one is dishonest. I don't like the dishonest ones.

You more or less said what I had to say.

To answer Soul's question as best I can (in a comprehesive way):

Nice Guys™ are manipulative narcissists who blame others when their 'insert kindess for sex' strategies fail. Compare them with pickup artists. They are playing their targets with a relationship in mind. Contrast them with pickup artists. They both very bad at what they are doing and immediately go for the long con. They invented the friendzone to make themselves feel better about their actions and eventual failures.

I think there is truth to the claim that actually nice guys end up alone, even if it only gets talked about by misogynists. Females are chemically predisposed to and taught to expect their partner to make the first move. Females who make the first move are few and far between and the ones who do often get shamed for this behavior. Doing so is a risk. When someone does not make a move, they accept that this person has no interest and move to the next natural conclusion for the relationship: they designate them as a friend. Truly nice guys are the same way. Their sumissive personalities cause them to expect their partners to move first, so when that does not happen, they automatically designate them to another part of their life and move on. Submissive males have trouble finding mates because they predominately like women and not many women are domineering enough to make up for the role reversal.

The Nice Guy strategy fails because of differences in expectations. We expect different things from different people. Once an impression is formed, it can be hard to break out of. This is one of the reasons first impressions are important. Bosses offer different things from coworkers. Coworkers offer different things from friends. Friends offer different things from love interests. Love interests offer different things from family. We have different expectations and thresholds for each kind of relationship and as such we naturally compartmentalise them into different parts of our lives.

Once someone has designated you a friend, that designation solidifies your role in their mind. From then on they will view you in the model of their life as that kind of asset and create a kind of budget for you in their life. Friends are a medium case with about equal benefits and risks. They are useful assets because they have a sense of security and stability that romances do not and come at a much lower cost. Some examples: Arguments are easier to smooth over when less is on the line. Requests can be turned down without much fuss. Distance and time apart does not create worry. Jealousy is less likely to happen. The benefits are many and the costs are a few, making friends easy to change to, but hard to change from. Coworkers can easily become friends, but a friend is not likely to become a coworker again.

It is no easier to go from friends to love interests. The stronger the friendship, the harder it will be to change it to anything other than what it is. You could call this a friend zone, because it is one, but it does not have the negative connotation that Nice Guys people put on it when they use their term. It is a natural phenomenon that happens for a good reason: self-preservation.

Nice Guys have no understanding of these compartmentalisations and completely misread the expectations others have. In romance, they think that because they expect to be a friend and then change it into a relationship, their target must expect that, too. When their targets inevitably do not, their concept of them as a friend grows stronger the longer the Nice Guy waits to reveal their intent. By the time the Nice Guy expresses their feelings, they have made their bed as a friend and strengthened it every time they did something friendly. They have ruined their own chances.

Think of getting kicked out of your house and having someone ask you to have a sleepover, but not invite you to sleep in the same bed when they make the invitation. You make plans and talk about it, they volunteer to buy the necessary materials, and you thank them profusely and make a note to pay them back (as a friend). Then you get there and they only have one bed planned. You ask where yours is and they say they figured you would sleep together. You say no, maybe even thinking they are joking. They get upset and call you out for not being interested despite their good nature. They may even have the gall to say that they are entitled for asking you over and taking care of everything.

A genuinely nice guy would let you sleep over and not expect anything or even hope for it. Both they and you would have already ruled each other out as romantic interests when you did not make advances from the start.

My two pence.

Be careful when claiming "everyone my age or older agrees with me" and "those aren't the words I used".

Edited October 6, 2016 by Makaze

[Makaze]

Doublepost, my bad.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Makaze

[Phoenix Wright]

The key part is the first clause - thinking you deserve something and not getting it.

are you saying it's never okay (in other words, always an example of entitlement) to expect something to come from certain actions? more concretely, is a person always entitled to expect action 'a' to lead to outcome 'b'?

This is one of those things that needs to be experienced, not explained. For another less pleasant example, I can tell you what it's like to be stalked, but it's damn near impossible to explain just how completely and utterly awful it is.

what is the particular experience you're referring to? being the nice guy or experiencing the nice guy? a stalker is not an example of a nice guy, as far as my definition of it goes.

also, this is true of essentially any concrete experience of life. yeah, you know that breaking a bone hurts, and you know getting hit by a truck hurts, but only i and a handful of others know what it's actually like to be hit by a truck and have a femur break. but the experience is still completely describable.

this is more of an abstract concept (entitlement) rather than a thing to be experienced, too, so it's even easier to explain an argument concerning it.

I only have so much patience, and the last page or so has been pretty bad. I usually don't like to pull the age card, but I also think that life experience would explain it far better than what I can try to do. Of course, it'll probably end with a general loss of faith in humanity and possibly cynicism and depression.

you should never pull the age card because it is always invalid in a discussion. and really, again, you aren't even old, which is when most people feel it appropriate to pull the age card (i'm thinking like 50+).

If your profile is correct, you're 22 years old. I wouldn't date a 22-year-old, on the account of being way too young. Trust me, you'll look back at this time of your life in five years and facepalm

i can't stop you from how you feel personally about the age gap you have between you and most people that come to this place, but i guarantee that feeling is not universal.

i would surely hope i look back and recognize growth as a person. i doubt i'll remember this conversation at all, though.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Phoenix Wright