Ensemble Mafia - N5

[Hober Mallow]

I know you zoned yourself out of my attacks, but you will not be able to do that with everyone.

Explain this vote, don't just post it.

Later perhaps. I need to reread. Ele requested that I put my vote out, and this is the best for now based on my initial feelings of the thread. I'll be able to get more in depth later tonight.

[Refa]

I hope the scumteam is Ryker/Elemina/Green Poet and that they're always asking each other to post answers for them because they're too lazy to post in the scum chat.

[charlie_]

I hope the scumteam gives up and we all live happily ever after.

[Green Poet]

re: yolo

I mean informed, not investigative, i.e. I've received setup numbers as my role before.

I think I mostly answered this already - it's not about whether the three names are legit reads or correct, it's that it's scummy when upon game start someone posts a list of three names simply titled "Scum:" and when asked to explain, says "I'll tell you later." I took that to mean Elimina was informed in some way (not about who's outright scum, just something that would lead to their forming this list with such certainty) and didn't want to immediately tell people their information details.

Again, I don't care about the accuracy of his list. At the start of a game, stating "These three players are scum. Why? I'll tell you that later," begs an explanation. When none is given, it's scummy.

However, I do think the reasons Elemina later gave were good, particularly re: Proto

[Green Poet]

oh, weird, I guess I ended up quoting the same post I'd linked

[Elemina]

Let me claim right now. I am an informed townie with the knowledge that there are 3 members hostile to the town and 10 town. It's why I posted the list of three people, but since this is my first time with this role, didn't think I'd need to claim it outright. Also confirmed with the mod to see if I get anything else, and I don't, so I think it's fine that I claim this now. My flavor claim is Shinya.

Reads in a bit.

[yedi]

im having trouble keeping track of who people are

Ryker, would you say your play in this game is closer to your meta than your play in our last game?

Yoloswag, why do you think Ryker looks better than Spinal in their confrontation? both sides looked gross coming out of it -- but spinal at least just seems to be stubbornly defending his beliefs whereas Ryker seems to just want to argue for the sake of arguing

also yolo, why are your reads so bad.

I like green poet, he brought up the irony newbtown thing which I agree with and I don't think scum would want to give town a pass this early.

##vote: kirsche

kirsche can you explain in your own words why Ryker is scum?

[yedi]

Let me claim right now. I am an informed townie with the knowledge that there are 3 members hostile to the town and 10 town. It's why I posted the list of three people, but since this is my first time with this role, didn't think I'd need to claim it outright. Also confirmed with the mod to see if I get anything else, and I don't, so I think it's fine that I claim this now. My flavor claim is Shinya.

Reads in a bit.

why would you claim this right now

[Ryker]

Wait, is that Yedi the Yedi I think it is?

Oh my god, this is unexpected.

Our last game lead me to conclude I just shouldn't ever be quiet. It never accomplishes enough.

Anyway, I'm back to putting in work on this game again. I kinda fell asleep on the couch waiting to see if Blitz would post. Oops.

[Elemina]

It seems like it's a role that should be claimed. I thought it wasn't that important but posting a list of three people confuses people for some reason, so I claimed it. I don't know what is optimal procedure for this role. It also shows that Green Poet was coming from a genuine mindset. (It's why I asked him about it a few times)

[Elemina]

Wait, is that Yedi the Yedi I think it is?

Yes, I invited him.

[charlie_]

I don't remember who wanted to bring in maximum postcounts per day but they were a genius. This thread is so long, but so empty.

@Proto: my problem with GP's Spinal vote isn't the content of the vote, it's the circumstances surrounding it. Ignoring Spinal beforehand before suddenly flipping the switch and going back on what she'd said when she needed a vote with nothing to prompt it is weird as fuck.

I didn't actually have a problem with early Ryker's content, up until his Proto vote which was completely out of nowhere. I'm actually getting kind of wary of him playing a deliberately annoying style as mafia where nothing gets done because reading the constant back and forths are slowly draining my will to live. It's weird to say it feels like the guy is active lurking but I don't feel like he's actually doing anything.

@Ryke: why is Proto a maflord? In two sentences or less.

@Green Poet: If you think Spinal is playing this way because they're getting frustrated, I don't understand your vote. Do you think that Spinal was feeling pressured to tunnel into Ryker, or is it something else? It feels like you should be voting for Mallow, because its one of the only two stances I see in your post.

I get (as in understand but don't really agree mostly) the Mallow cases but I don't feel strongly about him either way. Like, maybe he's scum? But passive play in a game like this where everything is a mess is null, especially when most players are still struggling to get into the game.

[Elemina]

Anyway, back to my reads post.

[Zkirsche]

Blitz, can you give me your top 3 scum reads before I post my shit? I'd like to see it BEFORE I put everything out there.

Can you not coast along with no explanations or content for another 24 hours please there's more to this game than waiting for Blitz. He has a case now you can talk about.

What is going on this game half the players have no coherent thought process at all. Yolo/Mallow pls post something longer than 2 sentences this is getting ridiculous. Mallow in particular can you please elaborate on these "initial feelings" you have for Green Poet which you've had all game and address her more recent content posts. Am I scum? Why do you want Blitz, and apparently only Blitz, to talk about me in particular?

[ref Mallow]I don't mind him defending Ryker, but him not having a stance on Ryker while defending him?

I don't see an issue here, questioning an interpretation or an argument doesn't require you to agree/disagree with the conclusion of that argument. Mallow is suspicious for not having a read on the game in general, this is just way too specific imo.

GP is Spinal still the scummiest player in the thread? What do you think of their newer content? Your commenting a lot on stuff but never drawing actual conclusions nor following your own stuff up (e.g. letting Ryker get away with not explaining their Blitz vote).

Ryker > GP >> Mallow = Yolo.

[Zkirsche]

Hold up I got cut by like 7 posts.

[Refa]

Requesting ISO's in the OP. I'm finding it very hard to parse content and back up my arguments without them. I'm pretty sure someone posted them earlier on but fuck if I can find it.

[Ryker]

Wait, so Elemina knows me too? But I don't know who he is. Don't tell me. I don't wanna know. Surprise me.

@Ryke: why is Proto a maflord? In two sentences or less.

Later, and more than 2 sentences. I'm working on it right now. Hold questions until the end of my next couple posts and then I'll answer them.

This applies to pretty much everyone.

[Zkirsche]

@Yedi: Along with a lot of the stuff Proto posted, Ryker continues to dodge questioning and outright refuses to explain anything. It's all well and good to reaction test a bit, which is why I don't really mind the slapfight nor the attitude in general, but there has to be well explained conclusions, reasons behind it all. Worst of all there is scum intent in delaying these explanations, every post that is made gives Ryker something to concoct an argument with, it allows him to see the state of the game, appeal to the right people in the right way etc. It also slows down the attack- passion fades with time and maybe new targets come up and our disdain for this behaviour gets forgotten for a while.

The most egregious thing is his never ending waiting. First he was waiting for GP to post before making a content post, now he's waiting for Blitz to *explicitly state* two more scum reads and put them in order. Note that Blitz has a major read and a major case now and has made comments on other people and this is still not enough to get him to post these explanations. When is this magic content post happening? At this point I question whether it really catches scum!Blitz if he posts his reasoning for suspecting him way earlier before Blitz posts his scumspects.

Also confirmed no hostile ITP Kreygasm.

@Refa use this but replace the username: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&cType=topic&cId=67107&search_author=Green%20Poet

Blitz used ISOs in his post and I've just been doing that to get by.

[charlie_]

Later, and more than 2 sentences. I'm working on it right now. Hold questions until the end of my next couple posts and then I'll answer them.

Dude you need to be more concise with what you're posting with all of the fluff here.

[Zkirsche]

Ryker's longest content string is two lines and he has three pages worth of posts. My biggest apprehension about this suspicion is that it feels like my play in .hack where I felt compelled to make a post asking people to claim to me every 5 minutes or so.

[Refa]

I get (as in understand but don't really agree mostly) the Mallow cases but I don't feel strongly about him either way. Like, maybe he's scum? But passive play in a game like this where everything is a mess is null, especially when most players are still struggling to get into the game.

I don't see an issue here, questioning an interpretation or an argument doesn't require you to agree/disagree with the conclusion of that argument. Mallow is suspicious for not having a read on the game in general, this is just way too specific imo.

Being passive/struggling to get into the game is one thing, but I'm not seeing that from Mallow. He mentions things that we should be doing but never expounds on the why.

He defended Ryker without having a reason too, is my issue. He doesn't need to be town/scum reading Ryker to defend him, yeah, but he literally had no reason to defend Ryker. Saying "you're not paying attention to the underlying attempt" is a very superficial issue to have with someone's case.

Looking at Mallow's ISO, he has way less posts than I thought he did but I'd still like him to reply to my issues with him.

[Green Poet]

Your commenting a lot on stuff but never drawing actual conclusions nor following your own stuff up (e.g. letting Ryker get away with not explaining their Blitz vote).

I'm not sure what to make of Ryker tbh. I do strongly believe at most one mafioso exists between Spinal and Ryker, so I haven't been giving the possibility of scum!Ryker as much thought. Spinal is scummy for tunneling Ryker for multiple pages, and then voting Mallow over a disagreement in technicalities rather than Mallow's actual likelihood of being scum. I think he's scummier than Ryker and Mallow.

@SB - scum!Spinal would be frustrated by the frequency of and condescension throughout Ryker's responses, and shifting to Mallow is just a reaction to all the people starting to call him out for tunneling Ryker. I don't think frustration necessitates towniness, if that's what you're asking.

Mallow is scummy because his most recent vote is a (self-admitted) appeasement vote, accompanied with no reasons as to why I specifically have the vote. Over the last of yesterday's pages, instead of casing Irony, Spinal, Ryker, Elimina, or anyone who was actually frequently posting, he continually tried to shift the conversation to Refa and myself. Telling Spinal "I don't think you understand my words, so I'm not talking to you anymore" has the same effect as not posting in case it could legitimize Spinal's case on him. Now that Refa and I are here, it seems like he just voted the first inactive to return because it'd be met with the least resistance.

[Hober Mallow]

It's not about whether the reads are legit, it's that I saw an undue amount of certainty coming from Elemina. It's not an absolute tell ofc, but in general I think it's safe to assume that an informed player + not immediately willing to share that role pm information in the game thread = scum.

Why would it be pro town to immediately share the information? Did you immediately share it when you had this role?

[Kriemhild]

I disagree with your theory. I like to keep my cards close to my chest. If I let scum know my reasoning as soon as possible they'll be able to adapt their play. My vote on you would serve the purpose of gaining a reaction from you, but you were away so it only helped with getting reactions from others. The blitz vote you see I have some reasoning to as well, and it would help get a reaction from Blitz. I'll tell you that I did not expect Ryker to vote Blitz when he did, but am not as comfortable with him as you think I am. I talked to Irony because it was productive to get him to give opinions, that I was fine with doing. Notice Blitz isn't even here now. You seem to have meta with him, talk to me about him.

If you're afraid they'll adapt their play, then why draw attention to your scumread on them? If you want to see more of their behavior without letting them know why you suspect them, then there is no point in declaring that you're scumreading them or that you're voting them. Once you draw attention to your scumread, they know you're targeting them, so they can adjust their behavior. Testing to see reactions is a valid tactic, I agree, but if you have 0 explanation for your initial attack, you have no way of getting meaningful reactions. Their reaction would be based on the unjustified vote, and therefore the reaction won't be related to the reasons that you suspected them in the first place, thus making them irrelevant to your suspicion. As you've already noticed, every time you declared a scumread with no explanation, people would ask you for an explanation and you can't really hope to get a more meaningful reaction than that until you provide some reasoning.

I'm not voting Ryker or Rainbow today. I'm not going to read the ensuing wall battle between the two either. The only point I would like to see addressed by Ryker is his confusion between blitz and Irony. I think that's a valid point made by Rainbow. I think we should focus our direction towards Refa and Green Tea and probably get a replacement for Yedi.

This strikes me as pretty weird, tbh. While I don't think anyone is expected to vote for me or Ryker, I don't understand why you'd declare that you'll refrain from voting either of us. I scanned your ISO and you weren't voting for anyone before this yourself (except a RVS vote). Since it doesn't seem like you have any better lynch targets, this post makes it sound like you personally wish to avoid getting involved with my conflict with Ryker. Though it's not much to go off of, it makes me think you might be Ryker's scumbuddy and are trying to ensure that you stay out of his conflicts.

[gif]

I never said it was wrong. I said it's never a good idea. And I still stand by my point. You could be a Cop who scanned a Guilty in a game where investigations are guaranteed accurate and it still wouldn't be a good idea to do something like that. Read the spoiler if you don't understand why.

did ryker ever explain why he thought/thinks blitz is scum? I should have pushed harder on this when it was still talked about. someone called me out on this in the last couple pages and I only then did I realize that ryker actually replied with "yeah, you're right, I did not give any reasons for voting blitz" and left it at that. that's no good...

proto's justification for disclaiming that his ryker vote was rvs seems ok to me. I'm probably not able to play this game as attentively as you'd like to see so far so :shrug: I don't have an excuse for the cases I've dropped.

Lack of attention makes sense, I suppose.

I don't see the issue with my spinal vote though, as failing to push ryker's blitz vote is independent of being able to see spinal as scummy

Well, if you consider how the whole Spinal-Ryker conflict happened, it was Ryker who outright refused to address any of the issues that Spinal raised. While I do agree that it was dumb for it to degrade into pointless semantics squabbles about semantics, the fact that you chose to vote Spinal without expressing your thoughts on the original conflict (about the issues Spinal raised, or on Ryker's refusal to address them) looks a bit bad. Especially since I personally think that Spinal's initial reaction (but not his tunneling) makes perfect sense and that it was Ryker who reacted to it badly.

proto, what do you think about this prolonged ryker vs. spinal exchange? we seem to have gotten opposite scumreads out of it.

Like I said, it shouldn't have degraded into crap about semantics, and Spinal should've stopped tunneling once Ryker made it clear he wasn't going to address the issues. Even so, Spinal's issues were legitimate ones that I agree with, and Ryker's refusal to address them is suspicious as hell.

Proto, fair enough on your explanation. Honestly makes me feel better about you than if you took the easy out and said it was a joke (also yeah uh that recent game was why I didn't want to vote you for it my b).

Considering that you hammered me there while you were Town, I figured you wouldn't do the same thing again.

Also you should have your vote not in spoilers, otherwise people will miss it.

I mentioned at the start of my post that my votes don't change, but it was addressed to Boron, I suppose.

##Unvote: YOLOSWAG

##Vote: Green Poet

...does nobody read my explanation as to why voting/declaring scumreads without any explanation is never a good idea?

I hope the scumteam is Ryker/Elemina/Green Poet and that they're always asking each other to post answers for them because they're too lazy to post in the scum chat.

...Thank you so much, Refa. You've made me laugh my head off during this otherwise infuriating D1 :D

Let me claim right now. I am an informed townie with the knowledge that there are 3 members hostile to the town and 10 town. It's why I posted the list of three people, but since this is my first time with this role, didn't think I'd need to claim it outright. Also confirmed with the mod to see if I get anything else, and I don't, so I think it's fine that I claim this now. My flavor claim is Shinya.

Reads in a bit.

Wheeee, numbers~

I still consider that role as being non-alignment-indicative, but thanks for letting us know! There likely isn't a hostile third-party with this setup because 2-man Mafia is too small.

It seems like it's a role that should be claimed. I thought it wasn't that important but posting a list of three people confuses people for some reason, so I claimed it. I don't know what is optimal procedure for this role. It also shows that Green Poet was coming from a genuine mindset. (It's why I asked him about it a few times)

Dunno what others think, but I think it was a good decision to claim if you were Town.

I don't remember who wanted to bring in maximum postcounts per day but they were a genius. This thread is so long, but so empty.

I blame Ryker :P

@Proto: my problem with GP's Spinal vote isn't the content of the vote, it's the circumstances surrounding it. Ignoring Spinal beforehand before suddenly flipping the switch and going back on what she'd said when she needed a vote with nothing to prompt it is weird as fuck.

Now that you put it that way, this does make sense. It seems like she was looking for somebody to vote and hastily put in some reasoning for it, which is not something that Town should be doing.

I still want to lynch Ryker. I'm not feeling strongly about lynching Hober, but I wouldn't mind if it turned out that way. I still find Green Poet to be a bit scummy, but her defenses seem fine for the most part and I wouldn't want to axe her off yet.

[Ken Masters]

I'm not sure what to make of Ryker tbh. I do strongly believe at most one mafioso exists between Spinal and Ryker, so I haven't been giving the possibility of scum!Ryker as much thought. Spinal is scummy for tunneling Ryker for multiple pages, and then voting Mallow over a disagreement in technicalities rather than Mallow's actual likelihood of being scum. I think he's scummier than Ryker and Mallow.

@SB - scum!Spinal would be frustrated by the frequency of and condescension throughout Ryker's responses, and shifting to Mallow is just a reaction to all the people starting to call him out for tunneling Ryker. I don't think frustration necessitates towniness, if that's what you're asking.

Mallow is scummy because his most recent vote is a (self-admitted) appeasement vote, accompanied with no reasons as to why I specifically have the vote. Over the last of yesterday's pages, instead of casing Irony, Spinal, Ryker, Elimina, or anyone who was actually frequently posting, he continually tried to shift the conversation to Refa and myself. Telling Spinal "I don't think you understand my words, so I'm not talking to you anymore" has the same effect as not posting in case it could legitimize Spinal's case on him. Now that Refa and I are here, it seems like he just voted the first inactive to return because it'd be met with the least resistance.

Check your facts. I never removed my vote on Ryker and I don't plan to do so anytime soon.

And my whole case on Mallow is not based on technicalities, but in his extremely scummy behaviour that I detailed many times now.