Sentinel07 Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 For Radiant Dawn, the part of the story I'd like changed the most would be removing the Blood Pact, but if they had to keep it in, I'd like it better explained, particularly why anyone would willingly sign one. "Hey, sign this paper. You get nothing in return but you and your country will be my slaves forever" is a Fates tier plot device. Another change would be taking out the reverence for BK. He's a straight villain in PoR, and for good reason. For gameplay, I would: -give the DB more chapters (maybe make a part 2.5) and just work on unit balance in general -tweak mastery skills so they aren't Insta Win triggers -give the new characters more development, either through Base Conversations or supports -cut Biorhythm. It's dumb and shouldn't come back. There might be more things but that's all that comes to mind for now. They don't sign it willingly, or at least not in full knowledge of it. Pelleas made the unfortunate mistake of believing everything Izuka told him, so when he told Pelleas that the parchment was just something to finalize Daein's independence, he believed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 They don't sign it willingly, or at least not in full knowledge of it. Pelleas made the unfortunate mistake of believing everything Izuka told him, so when he told Pelleas that the parchment was just something to finalize Daein's independence, he believed it. Still, he could have, you know, actually read it himself to make sure. Considering no one else in the Daein group thought highly of the guy, you would think Pelleas would have some kind of doubt in what he said after being exposed to how little trust Izuka earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel07 Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Still, he could have, you know, actually read it himself to make sure. Considering no one else in the Daein group thought highly of the guy, you would think Pelleas would have some kind of doubt in what he said after being exposed to how little trust Izuka earned. Well, it's certainly a testament to how utterly naive Pelleas was. At least, on the bright side, it's actually an example of how a naive character suffered consequences for their naivete and wasn't cuddled for it, unlike a certain Fates character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelsonfire Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 I think a remake is likely, since the games are older and not everyone has access to them anymore... As a successor, the only thing I can think in Hatari and Goldoa, but other than that, Tellius did a good job of worldbuilding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 They don't sign it willingly, or at least not in full knowledge of it. Pelleas made the unfortunate mistake of believing everything Izuka told him, so when he told Pelleas that the parchment was just something to finalize Daein's independence, he believed it. There were three Blood Pacts. One for the raven laguz, one for the former king of Daein (Ashnard used it to kill off all the heirs to the throne before himself) and the one Pelleas signs. Somehow, 3 people in charge of nations weren't able to read the contracts they were signing. According to the wiki, all three people were "tricked" into signing the contracts, and got nothing in return for it. That's not making a deal with the devil, that's the devil saying "Hey, gimme your soul" and the person going "Huh what? Take what now? Did I order a package? Well, I better sign for this in blood." Lekain's plot would be foiled completely if the raven king and Pelleas had half a brain between them. As dumb as it is for people to sign the contracts, I think the even bigger issue is that if Begnion has magic capable of cursing an entire country's populace, why do they even need to make people sign contracts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) There were three Blood Pacts. One for the raven laguz, one for the former king of Daein (Ashnard used it to kill off all the heirs to the throne before himself) and the one Pelleas signs. Somehow, 3 people in charge of nations weren't able to read the contracts they were signing. According to the wiki, all three people were "tricked" into signing the contracts, and got nothing in return for it. That's not making a deal with the devil, that's the devil saying "Hey, gimme your soul" and the person going "Huh what? Take what now? Did I order a package? Well, I better sign for this in blood." Lekain's plot would be foiled completely if the raven king and Pelleas had half a brain between them. As dumb as it is for people to sign the contracts, I think the even bigger issue is that if Begnion has magic capable of cursing an entire country's populace, why do they even need to make people sign contracts? There's too little we know about both the contracts and the previous kings who signed them to infer that they were just morons. Even in our world not everyone reads every contract before signing, and it's not because they're dumb or naive, people higher up often have trusted aids that read things for them, and this can easily be the case with kings of nations. Advisor reads contract and says it's safe, king signs, oops, your advisor betrayed you. This is basically what happened with Pelleas, and the main reason people don't like it is because we could tell Izuka was evil, but that's not necessarily the case with the other two contracts. Remember that it's easier to look at a situation like this from the outside and determine the right course of action than it is to know in the moment. Edited November 5, 2016 by Florete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 There's too little we know about both the contracts and the previous kings who signed them to infer that they were just morons. Even in our world not everyone reads every contract before signing, and it's not because they're dumb or naive, people higher up often have trusted aids that read things for them, and this can easily be the case with kings of nations. Advisor reads contract and says it's safe, king signs, oops, your advisor betrayed you. This is basically what happened with Pelleas, and the main reason people don't like it is because we could tell Izuka was evil, but that's not necessarily the case with the other two contracts. Remember that it's easier to look at a situation like this from the outside and determine the right course of action than it is to know in the moment. I'd say the main reason people don't like it is that the writing is too convenient. Is it reasonable that Pelleas, from his point of view, would trust Izuka? Yes. But isn't that too easy that an entire country can be forced into compliance with another, indefinitely, just because a paper was signed, without the signer even needing to realize what they're doing? It's not that the villains succeed due to their brilliance or that the victims made flawed but understandable judgements, it's just that they were dumb. I could have swallowed the Blood Pact easier had Pelleas been given reasonable incentive to sign it, not realizing the full cost until it's too late (y'know, standard demonic contract) but as is, it's just a "Haha, gotcha!" moment from Lekain, and doesn't feel at all earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 I'd say the main reason people don't like it is that the writing is too convenient. Is it reasonable that Pelleas, from his point of view, would trust Izuka? Yes. But isn't that too easy that an entire country can be forced into compliance with another, indefinitely, just because a paper was signed, without the signer even needing to realize what they're doing? It's not that the villains succeed due to their brilliance or that the victims made flawed but understandable judgements, it's just that they were dumb. I could have swallowed the Blood Pact easier had Pelleas been given reasonable incentive to sign it, not realizing the full cost until it's too late (y'know, standard demonic contract) but as is, it's just a "Haha, gotcha!" moment from Lekain, and doesn't feel at all earned. This feels contradictory. You believe that, from his point of view, Pelleas trusting Izuka is reasonable. So how is he "just being dumb"? Yeah, ultimately, he made a mistake, but people make mistakes. And as I recall, Pelleas was chosen at least in part because they knew he would be manipulated fairly easy, thus giving Begnion easy control over Daein while they believe they achieved sovereignty. I'm not seeing the problem. Like, I understand the problems people have with the blood pact in general, but not this part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 This feels contradictory. You believe that, from his point of view, Pelleas trusting Izuka is reasonable. So how is he "just being dumb"? Yeah, ultimately, he made a mistake, but people make mistakes. And as I recall, Pelleas was chosen at least in part because they knew he would be manipulated fairly easy, thus giving Begnion easy control over Daein while they believe they achieved sovereignty. I'm not seeing the problem. Like, I understand the problems people have with the blood pact in general, but not this part. What I mean is, while I can acknowledge that it's in-character for Pelleas to be painfully naive, the fact that the fate of a nation can be decided by a signature on a paper by someone who isn't even aware of what he's signing (and for that matter, someone who isn't even the true heir to the throne) is just too convenient. Pelleas' mistake is reasonable, but the consequences of his mistake are absurd. Imagine if the Blood Pact was verbal and Izuka said "a-slave-to-Begnion-says-what", "What?" Pelleas responds. "Haha, got you! Now you must serve Begnion forever!" Does that sound silly? That's essentially what happens in the game, the only difference is he signed a paper he didn't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 What I mean is, while I can acknowledge that it's in-character for Pelleas to be painfully naive, the fact that the fate of a nation can be decided by a signature on a paper by someone who isn't even aware of what he's signing (and for that matter, someone who isn't even the true heir to the throne) is just too convenient. Pelleas' mistake is reasonable, but the consequences of his mistake are absurd. Imagine if the Blood Pact was verbal and Izuka said "a-slave-to-Begnion-says-what", "What?" Pelleas responds. "Haha, got you! Now you must serve Begnion forever!" Does that sound silly? That's essentially what happens in the game, the only difference is he signed a paper he didn't understand. I feel like the problem has changed. It's become more about what the contract is capable of than why Pelleas signed it. I don't argue about any problems with the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 If we see a successor to the Tellius style, it'll be some kickstarter game, inspired by FE. Not IS themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I feel like the problem has changed. It's become more about what the contract is capable of than why Pelleas signed it. I don't argue about any problems with the former. I've never had a problem with the reason why Pelleas signed it, sorry if I didn't make that clearer. It's not about his character (he's dumb but that's a very deliberate part of the story), it's how major conflicts are created though simple character ineptitude. This mistake is repeated in Fates when two thirds of the game only happen because Azura didn't try to share her information. It's contrived and bad writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naturesshadow Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) If they ported the Tellius series to the Switch I'd be pretty satisfied (as much as I love those 2 games I do like my Fire Emblem on the go). With IS the way it is at the moment I wouldn't trust them with a remake as they'd mess it up somehow (probably by adding shit no one asked for) and a sequel is not likely nor necessary. If they were to change/add anything I would like to see support convos added into Radiant Dawn which would be great for the newcomers in that game that got character development screwed. Edited November 7, 2016 by Naturesshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fangpoint333 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I'd very much like to have the game remade to fill in plot holes, flesh out some parts, and include the cut supports. However the odds of it are extremely low. Their last two remakes didn't sell particularly well so they may be turned off of that idea for a while and the current profits are in making emphasis on waifus/husbandos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I've never had a problem with the reason why Pelleas signed it, sorry if I didn't make that clearer. It's not about his character (he's dumb but that's a very deliberate part of the story), it's how major conflicts are created though simple character ineptitude. This mistake is repeated in Fates when two thirds of the game only happen because Azura didn't try to share her information. It's contrived and bad writing.I don't see how character ineptitude is inherently bad writing. It certainly can be, but as long as a character's actions are believable, it should be completely reasonable that they'll make mistakes, and sometimes these mistakes can have large consequences. Pelleas' mistake is believable given the context we've already gone over. Azura's really isn't because we're not given a good reason as to why she won't talk. It sounds like you're arguing that a character's error in judgement causing a large conflict is inherently bad writing. I can't agree with that. In fact, I'd sooner argue the opposite. It can be done poorly, but anything can. Human error is very real and can definitely cause large conflicts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I don't see how character ineptitude is inherently bad writing. It certainly can be, but as long as a character's actions are believable, it should be completely reasonable that they'll make mistakes, and sometimes these mistakes can have large consequences. Pelleas' mistake is believable given the context we've already gone over. Azura's really isn't because we're not given a good reason as to why she won't talk. It sounds like you're arguing that a character's error in judgement causing a large conflict is inherently bad writing. I can't agree with that. In fact, I'd sooner argue the opposite. It can be done poorly, but anything can. Human error is very real and can definitely cause large conflicts. Again, it's not the characters' action in themselves, it's the gravity of the consequences relative to their behavior. Pelleas is naive, but the price for that shouldn't be that Daein is enslaved to Begnion indefinitely. It's dramatically unsatisfying that Daein can be robbed of its agency so easily. Why isn't Begnion already ruling the world when they have the ability to curse nations? They already suckered two nations into signing blood pacts, I'm surprised they didn't make Elincia sign one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinar87 Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) Again, it's not the characters' action in themselves, it's the gravity of the consequences relative to their behavior. Pelleas is naive, but the price for that shouldn't be that Daein is enslaved to Begnion indefinitely. It's dramatically unsatisfying that Daein can be robbed of its agency so easily. Why isn't Begnion already ruling the world when they have the ability to curse nations? They already suckered two nations into signing blood pacts, I'm surprised they didn't make Elincia sign one. I guess the problem with things like the blood pacts is they feel somewhat unsatisfying to some people as it feels too unrealistic for them to take seriously. It's kind of like me with fan service where I can tolerate it but it brings the game's plot down for me somewhat as it's too unrealistic to take seriously as there's not enough in game explanation as to why they're dressed like that. Whenever I have to use external logic to understand why a game's story has certain elements in them, it brings the whole experience down for me. I can imagine that with the blood pact, it's just a way to make the two armies fight each other for novelties sake, and since that requires external logic to justify why it's even in the game, it takes users out of the experience...maybe? Edited November 7, 2016 by Dinar87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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