Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War 2017 Tier List - Day 39: The support kids (Corple, Lene, Sharlow and Laylea)

[FionordeQuester]

If anything the one thing that stands out is that people don't seem to understand how averages work. If you rate unit on a scale from 1-10 then the majority of your votes should lie somewhere between 3 and 7 imo. If Aira and Levin get 10/10 how are you gonna rate Celice, Oifaye, Aless and Leaf? Give them all straight 10/10? That'd make the whole idea of this 'project' pretty worthless as we'd just be handing out 10/10 ratings left and right in gen 2.

Me personally, I gave 10/10 not just based on how amazing people are at combat, but on whether or not they have a role that only they can do. For example, I believe I gave Sylvia one because she's a dancer in a game where dancers are more OP than they've ever been. Levin gets one partially because he has Holsety and partially because he can chump Reptor in a way no one else really can. And etc., etc.

I don't believe 10/10's are something that HAS to be given to only one unit. Therefore, I've given out three of them so far.

[Yojinbo]

I never said that a 10/10 has to be given only to one unit, as a matter of fact I already know that both Celice and Leen will get a 10/10 rating from me for sure and they may not be the only ones.

But if you just throw out 10/10s like nobody's business then the idea of ranking/listing unit just becomes completely worthless. Like, Levin gets a 10/10 because he can 'chump' Reptor? A whole bunch of units can ORKO him with Hero Lance / Hero Sword / Light Sword / Killer Bow crithax, yet you didn't give Lachesis a 10/10 for being able to do so. And you'll run into inconsistencies: I already know that you're not giving Oifaye a 10/10 rating. Nobody who gave Aira or Levin a 10/10 will. I promise. But he's better than Levin. At everything. Better availability. Horse. More reliable skills. Can easily ORKO ever non-boss enemy unit up until Ch.10. Can kill every boss up until that point with some minor luck, including Blume and Ishtar [well, exept Arion but he's kind of an asshole and you don't have to fight him anyway]. AT BASE LEVEL, mind you.

And from Ch.10 onwards he'll still be good enough to destroy just about every generic enemy easily and he can take on most bosses with only some minor ressource investment.

And he still won't get 10/10. I won't give him 10/10 because he's just not quite there. But he's still like 2 levels above Levin, easily.

So yeah.

[FionordeQuester]

Like, Levin gets a 10/10 because he can 'chump' Reptor?

First of all, I chose to do these rankings based on a casual perspectve, despite being an efficiency player at heart. My rating of Levin would be completely different if I were to rank him on efficiency.

Secondly, I said his ability to chump Reptor was ONE of the reasons he gets a 10/10. Look at the full dissertation I gave on him in the thread, and you'll see that there's a lot more to the rating I gave him than that.

As for Oifaye, I haven't decided on him yet. We'll see when we get there.

Edited December 31, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Sup. This and a few of your other posts are annoying me because I think they're causing arguments and general displeasure in the thread. Up until your posts in this nature, everyone was fine with a live and let live attitude, not changing it into a hissy debate about the "right" playing style. If you could refrain from your remarks like this one, and the one where you called votes significantly deviant from yours into question, that'd be great.

The problem is that FE4 isn't a particularly difficult game when it comes to enemy stats. Since Sigurd and Celice can get through much of their generations alone, anybody who can't keep up with them tends to lose a couple of points because they're just mopping up the leftovers. Remember, Sigurd sets the benchmark at 10, so it's relatively difficult for a lot of units to score close to him - especially if you're using the whole 1-10 range!

First of all I want to apologize, if my lastest posts sounded a bit trolling.

Yes, I was really annoyed by some comments like

Taillte exists

or

She only exists to get fucked by Lewyn.

They are so wrong (Taillte does than only existing), that I couldn't take them seriously anymore.

As for the rating I know meanwhile that most of the ratings are based on LTC.

And indeed foot units won't do all that much unless they can dance or using staves from range.

I'll never ever deny Sigurd's awesomeness and that mounted units can easier go into the action than footunits.

However it's not justified in my eyes to give Taillte a 1 or 2 just for the reason she's underleveled and is stuck with thunder. She has an extremely powerful tome and wrath. With this combination she can oneshot pretty much everything and is so easy to train.

In chapter 3 Dew gave all his money to her to make her buy the paragon ring first to catch up. With the earned money from the arena the bought the magic ring. As for chapter 4 when she had 20000 gold from the arena, she sold the magic ring and bought the pursuit ring to be able to double. She could clean up the arena which brought her to level 20 and the promotion. Then I bought her the magic ring back which will be passed to Tinny as the pursuit ring.

Alec, Noish and Beowulf are mounted but they never really can do special things unless for using armorslayer or horseslayer because they stuck with mediocre weapon types or level and their growths aren't too great either.

Maybe it's just me, but it's easier to work with foot units like Ayra, Jamke, Lewyn or Taillte who have special weapons or skills who can get levels easily in the arena and so become more usable in the main chapter than to train Beowulf, Alec or Noish.

Thracia actually thought ahead on this and Vantage overrides Wrath because Wrath only goes off on a counter attack which vantage makes impossible except against other vantage enemies.

I noticed that I messed up right here.

It's true that vantage + wrath can't be triggered in once.

The deadly combination of FE5 I was thinking about is vantage + Dimethuder on Olwen actually.

I don't know why I came up with wrath + vantage.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Yojinbo]

First of all, I chose to do these rankings based on a casual perspectve, despite being an efficiency player at heart. My rating of Levin would be completely different if I were to rank him on efficiency.

Secondly, I said his ability to chump Reptor was ONE of the reasons he gets a 10/10. Look at the full dissertation I gave on him in the thread, and you'll see that there's a lot more to the rating I gave him than that.

As for Oifaye, I haven't decided on him yet. We'll see when we get there.

Eh, that really doesn't answer my point in any way. Especially the point I made about averages. If you [not necessarily you specifially] give Levin, Sigurd, Aira, Celice, Leen and Leaf all a 10/10 there's a problem because clearly these units are not all on the same level.

As for the rating I know meanwhile that most of the ratings are based on LTC.

There's, like, two people in here that consider LTC strats in their arguments.

[Flee Fleet!]

However it's not justified in my eyes to give Taillte a 1 or 2 just for the reason she's underleveled and is stuck with thunder. She has an extremely powerful tome and wrath. With this combination she can oneshot pretty much everything and is so easy to train.

In chapter 3 Dew gave all his money to her to make her buy the paragon ring first to catch up. With the earned money from the arena the bought the magic ring. As for chapter 4 when she had 20000 gold from the arena, she sold the magic ring and bought the pursuit ring to be able to double. She could clean up the arena which brought her to level 20 and the promotion. Then I bought her the magic ring back which will be passed to Tinny as the pursuit ring.

Not everyone would prefer giving Taillte the Pursuit or Magic Ring, nor giving her money through Dew, unless they want to. Unless what you're saying in your comment is how you trained Taillte, for which I apologize if I got the wrong idea.

But I'll do agree she's the perfect unit to have the Elite ring, since she will probably be the most underleveled unit of your team when you get her.

And personally I think the lowest score Taillte gets would be at the very least higher than Deidre, or Arden(as he got tons of low scores, which is understandable), but then again everyone has their own opinion on who they find better.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Flee Fleet!

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

^ Indeed, it is the way how I trained her.

Unrelated to that I pass the elite ring from unit to unit before they enter the arena to give them as many levels as possible to promote early.

In some cases it works very well (Ayra, Taillte...), while in some others (Alec, Azel...) not so much.

That's also the reason why I only find like a hand full units of Gen. 1 below average or unusable.

[Valkama]

Tiltyu I think is worth using so her kids start out better

Tailto is like the easiest unit to reach level 30. Just send her into the Arenas, give her a couple villagers, give her the elite ring as soon as she's made enough money to afford it and she promotes after the chapter 5 Arena. Then all you need to do is staff spam her for a few turns and she's level 30. There is no reason to train her for her kids because she can do it all herself. Which is great because you can just leave her at the home castle with Arden and warp spam him.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Valkama

[Levin's Scarf]

First of all I want to apologize, if my lastest posts sounded a bit trolling.

Yes, I was really annoyed by some comments like

or

They are so wrong (Taillte does than only existing), that I couldn't take them seriously anymore.

As for the rating I know meanwhile that most of the ratings are based on LTC.

And indeed foot units won't do all that much unless they can dance or using staves from range.

I'll never ever deny Sigurd's awesomeness and that mounted units can easier go into the action than footunits.

However it's not justified in my eyes to give Taillte a 1 or 2 just for the reason she's underleveled and is stuck with thunder. She has an extremely powerful tome and wrath. With this combination she can oneshot pretty much everything and is so easy to train.

In chapter 3 Dew gave all his money to her to make her buy the paragon ring first to catch up. With the earned money from the arena the bought the magic ring. As for chapter 4 when she had 20000 gold from the arena, she sold the magic ring and bought the pursuit ring to be able to double. She could clean up the arena which brought her to level 20 and the promotion. Then I bought her the magic ring back which will be passed to Tinny as the pursuit ring.

Alec, Noish and Beowulf are mounted but they never really can do special things unless for using armorslayer or horseslayer because they stuck with mediocre weapon types or level and their growths aren't too great either.

Maybe it's just me, but it's easier to work with foot units like Ayra, Jamke, Lewyn or Taillte who have special weapons or skills who can get levels easily in the arena and so become more usable in the main chapter than to train Beowulf, Alec or Noish.

FWIW I would have given Beowulf, Alec, and Noish low scores as well. In spite of being mounted, they're mediocre at best.

As for Tailte, that's the thing. She requires a lot of investment and babying, more so than the average unit. She's made of tissue paper, so anything with a high enough strength or a brave weapon will one-shot her. So in the arena you basically have to hope that she dodges, which isn't reliable in any way. Sure, she can hit like a truck but she gets hit hard as well without anything to compensate for it. At least Lewyn has a weapon that gives him +20 speed. Since this game loves to throw hordes at you, it would be difficult to make much use of her- especially considering that there are so many enemies in Ch.4-5 with ranged weapons. Also, if you're investing that much to just make her on par with everyone else, it doesn't mean that she's good- it just means that you like and want to use her. While there's nothing wrong with wanting to use her, it still doesn't make her worthy of a high score.

And this is coming from a guy who plays casually. Even I think Tailte is a bad unit.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

It's right that she's only a player phase unit unlike Lewyn who can solo pretty much with Forseti... but she absolutely works for my playstyle.

When I have to fight a group of a dozen enemies I try to take it out in one single turn with all my units I have and Sylvia, so it's no real issue for me.

My target of my comments isn't to see ratings of 7-8 for her, but I only try to make clear that she can be - no she is - an useful unit.

I think a rating of <3 isn't justified regarding on her tome and skill. Her growths aren't too bad either honestly.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Levin's Scarf]

It's right that she's only a player phase unit unlike Lewyn who can solo pretty much with Forseti... but she absolutely works for my playstyle.

When I have to fight a group of a dozen enemies I try to take it out in one single turn with all my units I have and Sylvia, so it's no real issue for me.

My target of my comments isn't to see ratings of 7-8 for her, but I only try to make clear that she can be - no she is - an useful unit.

I think a rating of <3 isn't justified regarding on her tome and skill. Her growths aren't too bad either honestly.

Working for your playstyle =\= objectively useful

Like I said, she can hit like a truck but she gets hit really hard as well, which means that she's not much of a front-line unit. She also requires a lot of investment before she's remotely useful, which is more of a hinderance than anything. Her growths don't amount to much if she can't kill a whole lot, unless you give her the paragon ring. And if you give her the paragon ring then that goes back to the issue of putting in an investment for just a decent outcome.

If you want to give her a decent score then that's fine. But if you are going to complain about other people's scores then expect some criticism coming your way.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Levin's Scarf

[BrightBow]

FWIW I would have given Beowulf, Alec, and Noish low scores as well. In spite of being mounted, they're mediocre at best.

As for Tailte, that's the thing. She requires a lot of investment and babying, more so than the average unit. She's made of tissue paper, so anything with a high enough strength or a brave weapon will one-shot her. So in the arena you basically have to hope that she dodges, which isn't reliable in any way. Sure, she can hit like a truck but she gets hit hard as well without anything to compensate for it. At least Lewyn has a weapon that gives him +20 speed. Since this game loves to throw hordes at you, it would be difficult to make much use of her- especially considering that there are so many enemies in Ch.4-5 with ranged weapons. Also, if you're investing that much to just make her on par with everyone else, it doesn't mean that she's good- it just means that you like and want to use her. While there's nothing wrong with wanting to use her, it still doesn't make her worthy of a high score.

And this is coming from a guy who plays casually. Even I think Tailte is a bad unit.

Well, at least that part is not much of a concern. The arena can't actually kill her and anything she faces will die in two hits at most. So she can just keep trying until she manages to dodge once and she is good.

Edited January 1, 2017 by BrightBow

[Levin's Scarf]

Well, at least that part is not much of a concern. The arena can't actually kill her and anything she faces will die in two hits at most. So she can just keep trying until she manages to dodge once and she is good.

I'm aware of that, but you still have to keep trying and trying, which again is putting in effort for a unit that in most cases is not worth it.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Levin's Scarf

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

If you want to give her a decent score then that's fine. But if you are going to complain about other people's scores then expect some criticism coming your way.

I'm aware of that.

Also it's not that the low scores annoy me. (If so, then I'd have to complain for the rating of each second unit.)

It's more that certain comments were wrong as unnecessary (I mentioned in a previous past) and made me want to complain.

Also, I think this discussion is done.

I have absolute no problem to accept anyone's opinion... aslong it's reasonable.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Flee Fleet!]

I'm aware of that, but you still have to keep trying and trying, which again is putting in effort for a unit that in most cases is not worth it.

I'll agree with that (except the 'unit is not worth to train in most cases' part, because she is more capable of fighting than say, Turban)

It is rather difficult to train Taillte in the arena because she's not the best at dodging. In fact, she can be considered an Azel who does way better damage and has better tomes, but, like him, does not dodge very much. It doesn't help that she has no Pursuit, but at least she has Wrath so she can at best clear 3 or 4 levels of the arena, whereas unpromoted Azel usually has a tough time passing the third level of an arena, starting from Ch3, that is.

[Refa]

I'm aware of that, but you still have to keep trying and trying, which again is putting in effort for a unit that in most cases is not worth it.

lmao no doing the arena over and over again until she dodges once is extremely easy

[Levin's Scarf]

lmao no doing the arena over and over again until she dodges once is extremely easy

Yeah but... why bother?

[OliKad]

Yeah but... why bother?

Okay, I'll give my little two cents on it, and I'm afraid that I kinda agree with Eleanor here :P

Obviously, Taillte is not an excellent unit objectively speaking. It's already a bad start that she is a foot unit, but the fact that she's just level 3 is even worse. So she'll obviously seem very hard to train (well, more on that later), and the investment will rarely bring that much worth to your team because of her lack of a pony. However, is she completely useless? To my big surprise, I don't really think so! What probably saves her is two thinkgs: she is a mage, and she has Wrath. The former is more important, because that's what will save her from redundancy, because until then, there's only two offensive magic users that are on your team (well, there's Aideen/Claude, but they have literally no skills, so...), and since she completes the weapon triangle, well, that's just a cool little bonus. Second, she has what I consider to be the most fun skill in all of FE4: Wrath! Sure, it's very risky to use it properly, but when you do, man, the end result is just so satisfying! :D This very skill will allow her to kill almost any unit that isn't a mage with lots of HP, or something close to that. Thanks to Wrath, this makes her very efficient to take down the many pirates that'll attack her (alongside Claude and Briggid) which will be a very valuable experience source for her. At the end of this skirmish, she SHOULD be around level 8-10.

Then, there's her trump card that comes into play: Arena abuse. Thanks to her Wrath skill, if an attack drains her below 50% HP, she'll almost automatically crit her enemy (I'm accounting misses, but she has enough skill to rarely miss anyways, so...). And should she fail and get killed instead, here's the trick: try again. Thanks to her amazing Wrath, she'll get an automatic critical at the start of the combat which, assuming she's using Thoron, will instantly kill the opponent. And she'll often have enough Speed to attack first, so the lack of Vantage isn't really an issue here! But what if she fails again? Restart, my friend. And do it until she wins, it shouldn't take too much time.

So, with all that said, if you train her through both arenas in Chapter 3/4 and give her some civilians, boom, she's ready to promote. And her promotion is very solid as well, with access to staves and swords, great stats bonuses, and also Adept/Continue so her Speed stat might serve a little! So yeah, I do think that she's actually not that difficult to bring to promotion level, even if you feed almost every Chapter 4 kills to your other units. And bam, you suddenly game much better starting stats to Tinny and Arthur without much effort! :D

However, because of her lack of movement in Chapter 5, she won't be doing THAT much here, but she hopefully won't need any more babying at this point and probably take down some enemies with some ease thanks to Continue, but the whole point of this text was just to explain that she IS fairly easy to train even without the Paragon Band, and that you don't even really need to field her to achieve that, which means that Taillte's kids will still have better starting stats without hindering the rest of your army.

Yes, I'm a very casual player of FE4, but I hope this text wasn't completely worthless anyway :P

By the way, Claude and Briggid's time will come very soon, don't worry! ^^

[Refa]

Yeah but... why bother?

Gives her children more money and makes them better.

[Yojinbo]

So how exactly are we going to rate children units?

[The Draco Knight]

Then, there's her trump card that comes into play: Arena abuse. Thanks to her Wrath skill, if an attack drains her below 50% HP, she'll almost automatically crit her enemy (I'm accounting misses, but she has enough skill to rarely miss anyways, so...). And should she fail and get killed instead, here's the trick: try again. Thanks to her amazing Wrath, she'll get an automatic critical at the start of the combat which, assuming she's using Thoron, will instantly kill the opponent. And she'll often have enough Speed to attack first, so the lack of Vantage isn't really an issue here! But what if she fails again? Restart, my friend. And do it until she wins, it shouldn't take too much time.

I played this game a lot of times and yet I wasn't able to came up with this method. I feel so ashamed now

Anyway, Tailto is...bad.

She has terrible availability and joins really underleveled. Plus, for a unit that requires a lot of investment and also joins so late, her stats becomes just...good, when trained. Not Amazing or bad. Just good, which is quite disappointing.

So...yeah, I think I'll give a 3.5/10 with some bias because I like her personality.

Gives her children more money and makes them better.

But...doesn't Arthur obtain his money from his father?

[Excellen Browning]

So how exactly are we going to rate children units?

Rate them based on their good/best parents. Pretty much only Aideen's kids will receive significantly different ratings depending on whether you go for Jamke/Midayle or Azel/Claude as father. Every other child functions essentially the same way, with very little variation between their different good fathers.

[Shin]

It's probably easiest just to assume the best iteration of each child, or at least take into account the likely variants, eg. Levin/Lex/Azel for Arthur. I don't think there's much merit in discussing the value of Ardan!Sety.

[CappnRob]

I think when we get to it that discussing the different variants of each kid can prove interesting. Plus there's subs and guaranteed characters like Ares and Oifey.

[Darrman]

please just roll subs in with the kids or something I never did a proper sub run and I don't wanna lose my perfect record of posting in here every day

I did ironman and the ironman lead me to have almost all subs; they then died quickly more often then not. It basically devolved into "The Celice and Aless Show: featuring Oifey!" I managed to get Leaf to promotion; then he ate a Ch10 Lopt to the face. I got Johan the Brave Axe complete with Critical; he whiffed two 60s where one would have killed and got three units slain, including himself. Hawk was pretty good; until I misjudged the reinforcement mechanics and got ambush spawned by Hannibal's crew. By the end of the game, all I had left was Celice himself, his sister, and his wife (Lana this time around.) But enough about my woeful ironman. all surviving units get auto-positive bias for not being a corpse

When we talk about the kids, I'll go about my experience with them in the pairings I've put them in. I'll do a little theory if I haven't done some pairings, but I can't exactly go at length about the awesomeness of Levin!Arthur; I've never had him. I'd still have one day for each kid and give them one total rating, but we can talk about whatever pairings have them at their best. Otherwise the list would be a bit of a mess if it had every different pairing with a different score and looked like "Celice, Aless, this Leen, that Leen, another Leen..." or something. But let's cross that bridge when we come to it. Eventually. when can I start my writeup on pope/pirate lady already