Japanese Tropes

[Thane]

Hello everyone.

I'm not a fan of manga or anime at all. I like Shingeki no Kyojin, One Punch Man and Death Note and that's about it. I've seen the "must sees" and quite a few others, but there's always something that seems to ruin it for me or break my immersion to the point where I can't enjoy it. More often than not, I seem to get annoyed by tropes and clichés which are popular within the Japanese entertainment industry that I simply don't like or find downright appalling.

This is naturally not only restricted to just anime, and one of the reasons to why I decided to start this thread is because I recently watched a walkthrough of Dai Gyakuten Saiban, an Ace Attorney spin-off which tells the tale of Phoenix Wright's ancestor, a Japanese attorney in the very beginning of the 20:th century who goes to London to study law. There, he befriends none other than Sherlock Holmes, who the creator of the series is a huge fan of. It turns out that this version of Holmes is a lot more jovial and gets carried away with his deductions, showing that his fictional counterpart is a mere fabrication which glorifies him even if the man is genuinely brilliant, which I found to be a charming take on the character, especially since it's obvious the author does it with quite a lot of love.

Now, that's all well and good, but then one of the most common Japanese tropes reared its ugly head: Dr. John Watson is the victim of the first case, and so Sherlock Holmes assistant is the completely made up Iris Watson, a 10-year-old child genius, writer, doctor genki girl. This baffled me, especially as a Sherlock Holmes fan. From the outlandish yet strangely charming and surprisingly believable interpretation of Sherlock Holmes within that universe to a concoction of clichés you've seen a thousand times, this just came as a complete surprise.

I'm not here to discuss this specific case; I merely used it to illustrate my thoughts on the matter. Why are some things shoved into everything? Why are child characters so popular, especially young girls and little sisters?

Ultimately, I'm not saying these can't be done well or that a show or a game can't be good in spite of them - I think Nanako Dojima in Persona 4 was pulled off rather well because she was a character first and a trope second, but that seems to very rarely be the case. I guess I'm just looking for someone to discuss these tropes and clichés with, because I can't believe they're in everything.

Another fun question would be if we do the same thing in the West, even if the "West" is a very vague, broad concept.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Thane

[Shuuda]

I'd like to imagine that right now, perhaps in an alternate dimension, Shin McJapan-name is writing up his essay all about how annoying western tropes are.

[Thane]

I'd like to imagine that right now, perhaps in an alternate dimension, Shin McJapan-name is writing up his essay all about how annoying western tropes are.

Well, I did explcitily ask for that as well, but I'd like it if the focus could remain on the Japanese tropes. Still, any discussion is welcome, of course.

[solrocknroll]

Literally every region has fiction tropes. This is such a nebulous thing to complain about.

Why would children characters bother you? Iris was well done, and the original Watson would have been boring and unnecessary. Susato is serious, Holmes is quirky, and so on. Watson would have been terrible.

You constantly complain about Ace Attorney's modern direction, but the series has literally always used those tropes. Sounds like you're looking in the wrong place for your entertainment.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Freyjadour

[Captain Karnage]

I find that these tropes are nothing compared to American reality TV.

I'm a believer in the seven basic plots where everything can be boiled down seven basic stories. Even at their core characters will always fall under a category while one being obvious while the other one will take some time to boil down into where they belong.

[Thane]

I find that these tropes are nothing compared to American reality TV.

Yeah, funny, that, I almost wrote that in my last addendum to the OP, saying that American TV is so radically different from my country's, and so is Spanish as well apprently. That's why I said the West is a very vague and broad concept.

I guess "Japanese Tropes" is a vague concept as well, but I'm curious and don't feel like I'm knowledgeable enough, hence why I started the thread.

I'm a believer in the seven basic plots where everything can be boiled down seven basic stories. Even at their core characters will always fall under a category while one being obvious while the other one will take some time to boil down into where they belong.

You mean the Seven Basic Plots theory? I've heard of it, though I've not read much about it.

[Res]

Although I couldn't give an exact reason why the trope is a popular one (being that I'm not of the culture), it obviously is popular - I'm assuming from all the merchandise sold - and that perpetuates its inclusion.

It's actually been really interesting these past couple of months to see the explosion in popularity of Yuri on Ice (a new anime defying a lot of the usual tropes) - it's done far, far better than anyone anticipated, and has generated a lot of chatter. It might signal an opportunity for others to follow in its wake.

[Captain Karnage]

You mean the Seven Basic Plots theory? I've heard of it, though I've not read much about it.

it's what the core of all stories boil down to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots

don't mid the wikipedia link, if found it to be the most brief on the subject and it gets strait to the point

when it comes to characters i feel that they will always go through similar motions

if you look into stories where a god/ess or someone who lives a long life and they fall in love with a mortal the god/ess will always have the delima that they will vastly outlive the one they love

ex. Holo has these dreams where the moment she turns around to look for lawrance all she ever finds is a pile of bones

in a redemption story the main character will always have to go through a trial or an ordeal to wash him or her of their sins.

ex. Cecil in Final Fantasy 4 has to climb Mt. Ordeal and face the literal embodiement of his sins to become a palidin

even I can't escape these

in one of my stories Matthis is a pirate who some how survives his ship crashing and ends up being rescued by a priest. He serves the priest untill one day while working on a curch he sees a guard beat a child slave, Matthis rushes over and manages to kill the guard and free the child, who now the priest keeps in hiding, and Matthis is now on the run for murder. Matthis then has a sudden realization, he can free the slaves.

long story short, he redeems himself by leading a slave rebellion freeing the slaves of the country

redemption stories will always be about washing away some kind of sin.

[Marz]

Like another person said, every culture has their own tropes, and Japanese tropes are not different from Western tropes. I feel as though Japanese tropes are just a little bit over the top, as from what I've seen, some of said "Over the top tropes". can get a little out of hand .

Edited January 6, 2017 by Steele

[Chen]

we definitely DO have western tropes as much as japanese tropes! tvtropes is devoted to tropes from all media, as much as i dislike that site i'm gonna reference it here. but of course, everything has been done before and will be done again

tropes in of itself aren't a problem to be honest, but there are tropes that are definitely inherently terrible

i haven't played dai gyakuten saiban, so I cannot comment on this particular case, but genderbending characters and removing them entirely from the character they were based on except for some superficial details has always been a pet peeve of mine because it's very obvious pandering to some sort of audience, something incredibly cynical like that. i can picture businessmen typing away at their machines and snickering to themselves, "how will we sell this game to this niche?" but no comments on watson herself, i don't like children characters most of the time and characters turned children are even worse

i can think of one series that plays off of the idea of tropes, "dangan ronpa", where every character is a some sort of trope taken to the extreme. it's actually pretty entertaining because it plays off of them well.

[Parrhesia]

To be fair, genius kids like Iris are pretty common in Western media too. DGS wasn't... well, in my view at least it wasn't that good, but I don't think it ever really made a claim to try and be faithful to the core material - out of a handful of characters, Gregson (who in most Sherlock Holmes adaptations is just rolled into a composite Lestrade) is the only one who mostly resembles his original counterpart. Hell, even the guy who wrote Kokoro makes an appearance for some reason?

Either way, cliches are mostly bad but it's hardly an exclusively Japanese thing, certainly not the concept of the child genius.

[Jedi]

To be fair, genius kids like Iris are pretty common in Western media too. DGS wasn't... well, in my view at least it wasn't that good, but I don't think it ever really made a claim to try and be faithful to the core material - out of a handful of characters, Gregson (who in most Sherlock Holmes adaptations is just rolled into a composite Lestrade) is the only one who mostly resembles his original counterpart. Hell, even the guy who wrote Kokoro makes an appearance for some reason?

Either way, cliches are mostly bad but it's hardly an exclusively Japanese thing, certainly not the concept of the child genius.

Yeah when I think of child genius, I think of Penny Gadget from the old Inspector Gadget Cartoon haha.

[The Geek]

Yeah when I think of child genius, I think of Penny Gadget from the old Inspector Gadget Cartoon haha.

Penny Gadget, Wesley Crusher, Jimmy Neutron, AJ from Fairly Odd Parents, etc, etc, etc...

Yeah, kid geniuses are just as prolific in Western media as in anime.

[Parrhesia]

Oh, yeah, and when it comes to the aspect of genderflipping Watson? Elementary did that first - and it was the main character herself, not OG Watson's daughter (as it is in DGS).