Takumi Overpowered?

[Alpha Wolves]

So... I've been playing Heroes almost religiously since the day its came out, and I've reached Top 101-1,000 Rank for the first event, and currently sitting at the same ranking this time around (5 more days, so I might get pushed down, knock on on wood). That being said, Takumi is EXTREMELY common, to the point I have to make my plans revolve around whether getting hit my Takumi is going to be worth taking out a unit, or having my Robin take damage early be worth it if he can survive vs a Takumi counterattack. It so bad that someone even has a 4 man Takumi team on their roster, and if I see them, I have to auto surrender (I only have 1 Robin to stop him). So I've been thinking... are Nintendo going to nerf this powerhouse? If not directly, how would they do it indirectly? If they do so indirectly, how would that affect other bow users right now?

As of right now, Takumi only has two really hard counters I've been able to use to reliably defeat him.... the first being the obvious one; Robin. With his ability to have advantage over colorless units, and high spread abilities, he can compete with Takumi 1v1, so long as certain conditions meet in his favor (i.e.: Not starting within 2 squares of Takumi is attacking first, him not having any speed buffs, having him attack first so you can get the KO attack, ext). The only one I'd say works (and I'm hesitent at this) was Setsuna. She worked earlier levels because of Bowbreaker, and she works against the ever so common flying units, but Takumi is an all around better bowmen unit than she is, and running around with two bow users is asking to get pounded by an enemy Robin Unit if you don't have backup for your two grey units. 

Outside of hard nerfing Takumi's (and Hector's) numbers based on their counter attacks. (i.e.: Having counterattack skills have scaling damage like other abilities, or nerf the counterattack to 50% normal damage, both would work to nerf these two outlandish strengths, without affecting attacks like Lightning Breath). Additionally, having more usable units with Bowbreaker would be nice (though RIP any Bow Users that aren't Takumi, its been nice knowing you all). 

How do you think Nintendo is going to deal with the Takumi problems? Number nerfs for inappropriate counter attacks? More Grey/Bow hate? Both? Or maybe give into power creep where Takumi is considered Tier D while some new archer takes his place at top with a new god-like ability?

[eclipse]

Either power creep or nerfing counters.  Much as I'd like a flat numbers nerf, it probably won't happen, since it would irritate those that already have those units.

[Jayvee94]

The game is broken. I blame Takumi.

Jokes aside, I think the next batch of characters will have skills to counter him.

[The Geek]

1 minute ago, Jayvee94 said:

The game is broken. I blame Takumi.

Jokes aside, I think the next batch of characters will have skills to counter him.

IIRC, M!Robin and Cecilia already have skills that deal effective damage against colorless units so they should work as hard counters to Takumi.

[Jayvee94]

6 minutes ago, The Geek said:

IIRC, M!Robin and Cecilia already have skills that deal effective damage against colorless units so they should work as hard counters to Takumi.

I guess those three needs to be elevated a tier.

PS. Who is IIRC?

Edited February 8, 2017 by Jayvee94

[Sentinel07]

7 minutes ago, Jayvee94 said:

I guess those three needs to be elevated a tier.

PS. Who is IIRC?

IIRC means "If I recall correctly"

[eclipse]

IIRC = if I recall correctly.

Can Robin/Cecilia/Henry survive a hit against Takumi?  Doing a ton of damage is great, but not if it's a suicide mission.

[Alpha Wolves]

@Jayvee94 - "If I Recall Correctly" = IIRC. And The Geek is correct, they can check Takumi, but they don't have the bulk to make them hard counters. If Takumi has Vengence Up, then he is still going to OHKO them when they try to attack and he counter attacks, despite speed. Alternatively, a Robin with Glowing Embers OHKO's Takumi, so its really who gets their countdown and survives first. With first hand practice, I can deal with 1 Takumi with careful planning (and sometimes a sacrifice). Cecilia, being a mounted unit, has it easier than Robin, but its still a matter of who attacks first and who gets their special first. 

Personally, I would love to see another bowbreaker in the game that has the bulk to make it matter. Was there ever a heavy armor bow unit in the game? If so, add him please! lmao 

Don't get me wrong, I love this game - but Takumi is on every Advance Team for a reason, lmao. 

[eclipse]

Closest to a heavy armor bow user is Gordin, but he's more for player-phase nuking.  I don't think he gets a proc, which really doesn't make him much of a counter to Takumi (just flying units).

[goodperson707]

I thought he was referring to source games and armoured units. That's a very short list though (just generals from 4-5 and baron/emperor to my knowledge) and only two of those are playable and start as that class and only one is associated with a bow at all imo. I don't think they're very likely units either and the one associated with a bow is also associated with axes (same rank but uses a better axe) and has a lance in his art (despite his E rank) on top of general class association (pun intended) with lances.  

[TheVinceKnight]

Hector can deal with Takumi very easily, if we're talking about counters.

[Alpha Wolves]

There is a reason why Hector, Takumi, and Cordelia are SS ranked... well, Cordelia is an entierly difference reason of Brave + Dance + Galeforce KOing up to 3 units in 1 turn under right conditions. Hector, like Takumi, has the problem of "Counter Attack without limits!" on an already powerful Might weapon (Guaranteed double attack when HP is >= 80%). Armored unit to boot means he's really only hurt by magic. I'm scared for Fed 14th, I'm afraid Hector is going to be made a Focus unit....

Personally, a hard 50% nerf to "Invalid Counter Attack" damage, or going Rank 1/Rank 2/Rank 3 25%/50%/75% would make it feel more fair to get hit by it, then get hit for a full ~50 damage just for smaking Takumi with a sword lol.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Alpha Wolves

[ZXApocrypha]

Hector gets bodied by red affinity units. My Corrin, who notably doesn't have any particularly special abilities, can KO a Hector taking no more than ~12 dmg. I imagine a solid red unit w/ triangle-adept [e.g. Roy] could deal w/ him w/o taking any damage at all.

The issue w/ Takumi is that as a grey affinity he doesn't have any natural weaknesses; but luckily his defensive stats aren't amazing, and a unit w/ high defense, not necessarily just Hector, can probably be used to deal w/ him. Ofc, Hector and Ryoma straight up counter Takumi b/c they have better stats than him and can counter at range. Alternatively, Robin/another unit w/ anti-grey tomes or a unit w/ bowbreaker would probably be able to deal w/ him as effectively? Though if we're talking arena, it may not be worth it sacrificing a unit slot just for such a specific counter....

Edited February 8, 2017 by ZXApocrypha

[Alpha Wolves]

@ZXApocrypha Since we're talking Arena, there is a good chance he will be in all of the Advance level fights. (He's been in mine so far). There is even a guy running around with x4 Takumi, and even my Ryoma and M!Robin combo couldn't beat them all. 

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

I don't think you can actually defeat Takumi without losses, unless you're lucky enough to get Lyn or Cordelia's Galeforce count down to at least 2 before you attack Takumi. There are many units that can rush him down, but they're likely to die the next turn since you had to dive to get the preemptive kill. Hector isn't nearly as scary imo, as he's part of the triangle.

 

What the hell? Five teams in a row with Takumi.

Edited February 8, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Rasudido]

@Alpha Wolves Japanese law that regulates games, in particular gacha games, prevents nerfs from happening to any specific items obtained through the premium currency unless the company is ready to issue full refund as compensation (extremely hard to do since there isnt an exact value you will agree the unit is worth). Its also worth noting that while they cant nerf Takumi and his abilities directly they are allowed to nerf globaly (i.e nef all "bow users")

Well have to wait likely until buffs to other characters, a direct counter shows up or game mechanics that are naturally unfavorable to ranged show up. Hopefully its the previous and not the latter as I dont want to be in the position of having to whale/auto include a unit just to randomly deal with Takumi or have all the balanced bow/ranged users also be nerfed by proxy. 

The way I have been dealing with Takumi involves a high level Lucina with Aether and Azura. I set up a double attack on Takumi with Lucina so that Aether is available on the second attack, this kills takumi and heals Lucina up. Its a very elaborate way but its the only one I have resonably available to me .

Edited February 8, 2017 by Rasudido

[Roxachronc]

Lilina can one shot some variants of Takumi, though she needs a boon in attack, I usually deal with him with Roy and my own Takumi lol.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

The only way I've been able to beat Takumis is to have Kagerou eat the first hit from him, and do a lot of damage in return. However, I haven't been able to max out my Kagerou yet, so she doesn't always survive.

[Wen Yang]

Haxtor Lols at all Takumis.

My own team usually involves baiting him with Effie, then whacking him the next turn

[Birdy]

2 hours ago, ZXApocrypha said:

Hector gets bodied by red affinity units. My Corrin, who notably doesn't have any particularly special abilities, can KO a Hector taking no more than ~12 dmg. I imagine a solid red unit w/ triangle-adept [e.g. Roy] could deal w/ him w/o taking any damage at all.

The issue w/ Takumi is that as a grey affinity he doesn't have any natural weaknesses; but luckily his defensive stats aren't amazing, and a unit w/ high defense, not necessarily just Hector, can probably be used to deal w/ him. Ofc, Hector and Ryoma straight up counter Takumi b/c they have better stats than him and can counter at range. Alternatively, Robin/another unit w/ anti-grey tomes or a unit w/ bowbreaker would probably be able to deal w/ him as effectively? Though if we're talking arena, it may not be worth it sacrificing a unit slot just for such a specific counter....

Yep, I use Roy to deal with Hectors. They do a total of 2 damage to him on average.

Also, I believe Robin is good enough to deserve a spot in your team, even if you aren't up against Takumi's (yoy will be 80+% of the time on advanced). He's even a bonus character in the Arena, so I'd say use him if you have him :).

[Magical Glace]

4 hours ago, eclipse said:

IIRC = if I recall correctly.

Can Robin/Cecilia/Henry survive a hit against Takumi?  Doing a ton of damage is great, but not if it's a suicide mission.

I use Cecilia, she's made of glass against physical units.  She hits like a truck, but usually only once and takes a lot of damage back if countered.  Using her requires a lot of being careful she doesn't die.  

 

[Dr. Tarrasque]

6 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I don't think you can actually defeat Takumi without losses, unless you're lucky enough to get Lyn or Cordelia's Galeforce count down to at least 2 before you attack Takumi. There are many units that can rush him down, but they're likely to die the next turn since you had to dive to get the preemptive kill. Hector isn't nearly as scary imo, as he's part of the triangle.

 

What the hell? Five teams in a row with Takumi.

I would sooner say this about Hector than Takumi. At least in my case anyway. As said before, Robin's one of the soft counters to Takumi as he's one of the few that can take a hit from him, not get doubled and hit him back pretty hard. A follow-up by a Brave weapon user will end him. Most teams tend to have Takumi as the only ranged unit and most 5* are typically Sword users. If you've taken out Takumi and kept Robin safe, you've got the game won unless you fuck up.

@Italic: WELCOME TO THE FEH ARENA AND THE REASON EVERY JAPANESE PLAYER AND THEIR MOTHER ROLLS FOR TAKUMI!

Personally, I find Hector more difficult to deal with than Takumi. His Armads effect increases the likelihood of a death since this freaking tank is guaranteed to counter distant attacks AND double when you first attack him. You'd have to have specific specials ready, threaten def, atk boost and enough power to kill him before he can attack you and that is really hard to find.

[Alpha Wolves]

Hectoe is a heavy unit and often the last one into the fight. He also being Green makes him hurt against Red units. Currently, my team is Lyndis (Training Ryouma right now), M!Robin, Takumi, and Abel. Abel can KO 99% of red threats in 1 go, red unit is for the not ao common Hector (Might be replaced with Hector, but since he is Armored, he is easy to dance around in Arena).

@Rasudido There is a reason why all of the counter attack units are S rank or plus. Most weapons already have a disadvantage with counter attach (+1 Special Turn), but the skill for counter attack is free. Are they allowed to nerf the counter attack skill if they nerf all counter attackers? Cuz thats pretty much the only reason why Hector and Takumi are SS Tier, lol.

[Birdy]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I would sooner say this about Hector than Takumi. At least in my case anyway. As said before, Robin's one of the soft counters to Takumi as he's one of the few that can take a hit from him, not get doubled and hit him back pretty hard. A follow-up by a Brave weapon user will end him. Most teams tend to have Takumi as the only ranged unit and most 5* are typically Sword users. If you've taken out Takumi and kept Robin safe, you've got the game won unless you fuck up.

@Italic: WELCOME TO THE FEH ARENA AND THE REASON EVERY JAPANESE PLAYER AND THEIR MOTHER ROLLS FOR TAKUMI!

Personally, I find Hector more difficult to deal with than Takumi. His Armads effect increases the likelihood of a death since this freaking tank is guaranteed to counter distant attacks AND double when you first attack him. You'd have to have specific specials ready, threaten def, atk boost and enough power to kill him before he can attack you and that is really hard to find.

Takumi walks into a bar, there is no counte--- *throws Robin and Hector in it's face*.

I agree Hector is more difficult, though Roy is a great counter to him and also somewhat common, being a focus unit and available in 4 and 5 stars. Depending on the boons and banes of those units, some Roy's can even one-shot Hectors because of Roy's passive. 

[Tango]

Merric can tank a hit from him and then kill him with a double attack. If he doesn't I have someone else go in there to finish him off at one range.

Just need some bulky mages (or Hector!)